"S is for Sadism" -- March 5, 2023

 [16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

 

[16:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

 

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So last week we finished up the first two letters of the BDSM paradigm, "B" for Bondage and "D" for Discipline

 

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we move into the next two, the ones at the end "S" for Sadism and "M" for Masochism

 

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual, I have a bit of exposition before I throw it open to the floor

 

[16:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism is rather hard to understand for people IN our community, never mind vanilla folks OUT of our community

 

[16:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): People think Sadism is some of mad use of fists and pipes and what not to beat a subject into jelly or something

 

[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In reality, Sadism in the BDSM understanding of it is far from such cruel behavior.

 

[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism is obviously as a word derived from the Marquis de Sade, who was imprisoned for lewd behaviors

 

[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He was a self-described "libertine" who believed that social rules were nonsense and that one's desire for pleasure always trumps what society thinks you should do

 

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone that has read the published work "101 Nights of Sodomy" know what I'm talking about.

 

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And in that book he hadn't really gotten to the nasty stuff he had planned (it was published with the book as an outline only)

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So while these acts bear his name, we are FAR from his ideas in form

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Merriam-Webster gives a general definition of Sadism as "the derivation of sexual gratification from the infliction of physical pain or humiliation on another person."

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's fine as a general understanding of the word, but rather limited

 

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The online Dominant Guide gives a much better definition:  "Within the BDSM community, the Dominant is most often the sadist, and the  submissive is generally the masochist (who derives pleasure from receiving pain). Also in the BDSM community, unlike most societal descriptions in the medical and psychological community, sadism is widely accepted as a healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual pleasure."

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let me be clear about something that will color this part of our discussion of BDSM

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Dominant does NOT have to be a Sadist to be a good Dominant, nor does a submissive have to be a Masochist to be a good sub/slave

 

[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): D/s and S/M are related to a degree, but a relationship can be totally based on Dominance and submission and not get into S/M of any type

 

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Acts of Sadism seem to puzzle a lot of vanilla people in First Life -- "why do you get off hitting people?"

 

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The answer to this varies from person to person, but in general, the feeling of power, of letting that desire to cause hurt to a person channeled onto a person that is willingly allowing it (nay, deeply desiring it!), and the lovely marks that are left on the willing Bottom with the hands, the paddle, the whip, etc, are the charges that drive the Sadist.

 

[16:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism is not purely physical either.  Different things turn on different Bottoms, so one Bottom might like being hit with a paddle until his or her ass and thighs are black and blue, while another may not want any physical pain at all, but really gets off on being totally objectified and humiliated in front of people.

 

[16:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After we talk about Sadism and Masochism in general, we will spend a couple weeks talking about a few types of this that are not physical

 

[16:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): However, today we will stick to Sadism as a physical act, as other forms require a bit more elaboration

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last thing and HIGHLY important

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are NOT discussing a psychological condition here where a person just acts sadistically toward people minus consent.

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That is Sadistic Personality Disorder, and its closely related cousin, Antisocial Personality Disorder (although they are different in how they operate)

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): : So if Y/you see some person going about saying they're a "sadist" who acts like a total a-hole to people around them, they're not a BDSM sadist, they are a person with some personality disorder that makes them into a thug.

 

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok with all this said...are You a Sadist?  Do you like doing horrific, nasty stuff to S-Types that we...er....THEY like so much?

 

[16:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sir Lngo, please go ahead when You are ready!

 

[16:26] Jade Atheria (Jade Atheria): c

 

[16:26] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): This is a deep topic and it has taken me years to come to my understanding.  

I am a sadist.  Many would be suprised to hear me say that.  And I do meet the devinition of one who enjoys inflicting pain.  

 

However, for me, it must be part of a feedback loop, within a deep trusted relationship, where the emotional and psychological benefits are understood and being enjoyed by all involved. 

 

For me the S/m take the D/s to all new and deeper levels.  And forges a very deep and emotional, Psychological and loving connection ... not possible in any other way.

 

It is transformational - like the process of forging steel.  It takes the living organic - to something deep and spiritual.   

 

[16:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I 100% agree Sir that there needs to be a mutual give and take, so to speak

 

[16:27] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): It is really hard to explain

 

[16:28] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): absolute trust too :)

 

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have a regular play partner in First Life I like smacking around at the club.  But I know she LIKES it...the last time we went there together she ran to get a room as she couldn't wait to get beat on lol

 

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I couldn't do any of that minus knowing she likes it

 

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): let's move on to Jade please!

 

[16:30] Jade Atheria (Jade Atheria): Just a short comment.....Tickling. It likely fails in comparison to some Sadists acts but it's certainly my torture. After so much laughter my everything hurts in such a lovely way.

 

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): OMG I HATE tickling!

 

[16:30] Humormii (Humormii Resident): OMG I love inflicting it! XD

 

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I am so ticklish, going to the doctor is an act of Masochism for me

 

[16:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As said earlier, Sadism does not have to involve any physical whacks or anything...it can be tickling, objectification, humiliation or any combo of anything

 

[16:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The real issue of Sadism is a way to "hurt" a person in a consensual way that gets them into a happy state

 

[16:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whereas Sadistic Personality Disorder is hurting people *minus consent* and getting off on doing that

 

[16:33] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): A sadist can also enter a happy state :)

 

[16:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Indeed Sir!

 

[16:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Topspace is quite often a result of having that power and wielding it

 

[16:34] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): PT is by Sadistic with my knee LOL when they are working on me. LOL

 

[16:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh

 

[16:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even foodplay can be sadistic!

 

[16:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll leave that to Y/your imaginations! *grins*

 

[16:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Jade!

 

[16:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Sir Abraham please

 

[16:35] Abraham  عبر Jacobson  (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): There is a Sin T app for just that kine of play. That is why i also servey my girls, to see if any are masochist I have play items for that if i find the right girl and enjoy the power play that comes from it.

 

[16:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): /me nods

 

[16:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Making sure that a person is a good fit for each other is very essential I agree Sir.

 

[16:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is why negotiation for a scene never mind a D/s kind of connection is vital

 

[16:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent, thank You Sir

 

[16:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please go ahead Hu when ready

 

[16:39] Humormii (Humormii Resident): I am primarily subby but I definitely am a switch. Ask Rachel. :P I have an intense need to do whatever it is my partner needs to get off. Be it pulling hair at the right moment, slaps, pinching. I am rather green as a Domme so I haven't ventured too far down the rabbit hole wanting to keep things safe and consentual and wanting to learn more before I make costly mistakes. But it's definitely there. #

 

[16:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yay!  \o/

 

[16:40] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's never "wrong" unless it's non-consensual.  So where you are going with willing subjects is a fab thing in my book, Hu.

 

[16:40] Rachel Scarlett (ReddyPlayerOne Resident): /me Nuzzles and cuddles on my Hu sis and purrs^^

 

[16:41] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let me ask the group a question on this, Y/you can just answer it, please don't put in a "C":  Can a person who identifies as submissive have also strong sadistic tendencies at least at times?  Or are sub and sadist two self-contradictory ideas?

 

[16:42] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): Depends on the reason behind it.  Some "sadistic tendencies" are merely ventings and reactions

 

[16:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a valid point Mistress Arella!

 

[16:43] Sky (808080Sky Resident): I'd say some subs are very good at inflicting on themselves the masochistic fantasies they need - whether that requires a sadistic mindset... I suppose it actually does.

 

[16:43] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): For me it is never venting

 

[16:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also, some might see the "Brat" as a sort of sadist.  But they aren't.  They're trying to set something up

 

[16:45] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): I would be very surprised to find a submissive, on the scale of my Jade, say, with any sadistic tendencies.

 

[16:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I ask because in SL I've been told that a "real" sub can't be anything but passive and probably a masochist

 

[16:45] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): Well, THAT is pure poppycock!

 

[16:46] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): oh not always Vanni, i enjoy being sassy to get more erm funishments

 

[16:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I serve Master Laz here as his Kinky Secretary and I get off on being told what to do, doing it and hearing "Thanks sweetie" from Him.

 

[16:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I also go to the club in RL and look for willing subjets for sadistic experimenation lol

[16:47] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): Vanni, doesn't that make you a switch?

 

[16:47] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): OMG Vanni!!!! I love hearing Master Laz  when he does that. He knows I also get off when he orders me around.

 

[16:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That would depend how one defines "switch" Master RB

 

[16:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in an S/M way, yes

 

[16:48] Humormii (Humormii Resident): My dominant side developed out of half necessity and half desire because I was surrounded by sisters who were absent a dominant.

 

[16:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can go either way, either Top or Bottom

 

[16:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I'm not a Dominant person

 

[16:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have no desire to control anyone...well except my students, but that's not BDSM :P

 

[16:48] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): That's what all teachers say ... ^^

 

[16:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well THEY will say I'm a horrible sadist I'm sure lol

 

[16:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok thanks Hu!

 

[16:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mistress Arella, You are up please!

 

[16:50] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): Thank you, Vanni.  I am an Ethical Sadist.  For Myself it isn't about torture or pain, but about impacting the submissive in a way that they desire.  The impact may be physical, mental or emotional.  (My jam is more mental - imagine spiders crawling ...)  Going a step further, it is the way that the impact is interpreted that brings value to the situation.  The sub interprets the particular impact as either pain, endorphin pleasure, a closeness with the D, or any combination of things.  When that connection happens, it is a beautiful celebration and not a freakish form of abuse.  #

 

[16:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1000% agreed Mistress!

 

[16:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The key is what You said, Mistress, it's what the people involved value and want.

 

[16:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And why we can't pass judgement on anything that is not abuse.  We can always judge abuse...but...what LOOKS abusive often well is not

 

[16:54] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent, thank You Mistress!

 

[16:54] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to Sir Lngo please

 

[16:54] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Some musings.....

Due to my strange intemate nature on this topic - for me I have learned I cannot be in an S/m connection unless the D/s has already been established.  

 

I too develop a deep emotional connection.  So casual play is really not possible for me.  It has also taken me years to understand this .... at least for me.

 

Engaging in this level of play requires lasting commitment on my part - and my assessment that my partner also meets my level of commitment.

 

Once I experienced very bad DOM drop (sub left me) and it really took me years to overcome. I never want to do that again :) 

 

What can I say .... I know I am different .... I know I have my own way.... but I just have learned who I am.. and what I uniquely need.  And I realiize that many others are very different.  All appproaches are valid - it really become about compatibility.  I have great respect for you all :)  #

 

[16:56] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): We are all unique beings Lngo, you are not soo different. I fully agree with your statement

 

[16:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said, thank You Sir!

 

[16:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aspen, you are up please

 

[16:58] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Thank you Vanni

There are times where I think I am a wanting that pain. I am a sub/slave when it come to pain. There are some 

humiliation and cam play a part with me. I love to also play in public but it depends where. But when it comes to the pain, I want the pain that I can change it to pleasure. I don't really like seeing the marks and in my profile I express that they can only stay on my body for two days. 

I enjoy all of the pain or the high it gives you and release all of the stress build up. Then it flips me into subspace. I am done with all that has been done to me. Like being flogged, spanked by hand or by paddle or ect. then the eating me out, playing with my pussy, forcing his cock in my pussy then have me suck him clean then to do anal. I love it when it is happening. The I am so wipe out. and then it is ready to do it all over again with in an hour. LOL

 

[16:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Aspen!

 

[17:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will say this...at the club I will do pickup play, which can be described as "casual"...but whether I am Top or Bottom, if I don't know the person and have never played with them, that first scene is always pretty light

 

[17:02] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): But you have to watch out of Top/sub Drop.

 

[17:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes you do

 

[17:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is why I always try to get in touch with the other the next day and usually one more to be sure they're ok

 

[17:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Due diligence we call it ;)

 

[17:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Aspen!

 

[17:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Miss Cherry has a question.  Please go ahead Miss!

 

[17:04] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Thank you Vanni

 

[17:04] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): I have a question for the group. In am probably throwing the stick in the henhouse so to speak (and awakening the rooster lol), but i wonder if sadism is more seen with male dominants than with female ones. I have no RL experience whatsoever, and i can only rely on what i have seen in my 15 years in SL. I have no idea about statistics or scientific research about the topic. I am sure Vanni in her professional modus has more specific data about this. But i just wonder if there are sexe – related differences in fantasies, sources of arousal and practice in the BDSM community. I myself am more of a Control Junkie, but that is another topic hehe.

 

[17:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone can answer Miss Cherry's question, please do not "C"

 

[17:07] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): in my humble opinion society as a whole views sadists as female Doms too

 

[17:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will say something but I want to let everyone that wishes to have a chance to go first

 

[17:08] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): Historically, society has envisioned the males as the dominant or giver of pain/pleasure, with the females as subservient receivers.  IMHO that has changed greatly.  What happens behind closed doors may never be completely accurately "surveyed" for many reasons.

 

[17:09] Joel Lightfoot (JoelJSA Resident): Miss Cherry, I have a recommendation for you, if you haven't read it:  The Erotic Mind: Unlocking the Inner Sources of Passion and Fulfillment

 

[17:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Mistress!

 

[17:09] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): C

 

[17:09] Sky (808080Sky Resident): I suspect this might be one of those traits where the male expression is different from the traditional female expression. Say violence at home typically is verbal abuse from the part of a woman, where a male may be more physical. I suspect there are plenty of female dominants that are sadist. The form just may be different for social acceptability reasons.

 

[17:10] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): I'd also agree the stereotype of the femdom is a hard-backed controlling sadist.

 

[17:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will say based on my long time in both SL and RL BDSM circles that women can be some really hard ass Sadistic Tops and Dom/mes

 

[17:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And some male Doms have that nurturing touch

 

[17:12] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I have flogged a dominant in Real World.

 

[17:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That said, I think also male and female subs are different in many cases.

 

[17:12] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I got off on it.

 

[17:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if you go to a Femdom community here, you will find the boy subs are often really happy when they can be totally debased in front of a Domme

 

[17:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (again, I'm generalizing)

 

[17:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it has something to do with gender roles

 

[17:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's a giving up of the expected role of "confident and active, powerful"

 

[17:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the way men and women approach this will temper how male and female Dominants will act and react to their bottoms or subs

 

[17:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The answer itself would take a lot of thought and probably a blog or two lol

 

[17:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Great question, thank You Miss Cherry!

 

[17:15] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): Chuckling at the memory of some playtime, then off to the grocery store in thigh high boots and corset.  Lots of stares happened.  The cashier said, "Folks either want to please you or be you."  lol #

 

[17:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): /me grins

 

[17:15] Joel Lightfoot (JoelJSA Resident): LOL Miss Arella!

 

[17:16] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): hehe, I like that cashier

 

[17:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Dom in my RL community has a girl, and when go shopping he says "Get that oatmeal, get that head of lettuce..."  Just that gets people going lol

 

[17:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Miss Cherry!

 

[17:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lysana you're up please!

 

[17:17] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): Depending on how he said it, I'd stop to fan myself,too.

 

[17:17] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): Thanks, Vanni

 

[17:17] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): First, I love playing with sadists who fit with my masochism. Sensation play, edge play, the sting that spreads and changes... *coughs* Um, where was I? Oh, yeah. I like having some kind of friendship with a dominant regardless of our intended play modes and definitely don't want to go from zero to razor blades on the first date. *grins*

Second, my sadistic side is expressed in service topping. But not often so far. If I were to give a rough label for my approach, it'd be caring, creative, and squeamish. that last may be a newness problem. The one time I provided a dom I was scening with an outlet for his masochism, I knew he'd RPed almost everything twice. So my deep need to not shed any real blood or whatever mixed with knowing this and gave him an experience he'd never had by sheer luck. It doesn't always have to be pain, though. A sub someone left out to be played with was there for edging and teasing. So he got that. His Mistress wanted it. We both had fun. #

 

[17:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes!

 

[17:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I pointed out a bit earlier that Sadism doesn't always imply hitting people

 

[17:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All manner of acts can fall under Sadism

 

[17:19] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): Some people, I recall, adore the mindfuck.

 

[17:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A good mindfuck is a lot of fun

 

[17:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): /me remembers one night at a RL Femdom party where three of us were sitting on a couch with a boy kneeling in front of us....and he was in tears and we never laid a finger on him lolol

 

[17:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent Lysana, I'm glad to hear you're expanding in your lifestyle!

 

[17:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sir Lngo again please

 

[17:21] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Back to Cherry's question...

You may know or not know that my journey led me down the path of submissive for several years.  And I was told - and did learn - that I was really not a submissive :)  (Really I tried)   I found much diversity in female Dommes, some were Sadists and others were not.  But all were about control.  I think there is just a lot of diversity and just like you cannot stereotype Male DOMs you can not do that for Female Dommes.  Really just gets back to compatability.  And not sure it's specifially gender related - or sexual orientation related.  #

 

[17:22] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): very true Master Lngo

 

[17:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Sir!

 

[17:22] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Thank you for this very enlightening comment Lngo,

 

[17:23] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): To me control is the key , yes

 

[17:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I always point out to my Intro to Soc and Crim classes that we are talking about *generalizations*, but one can't ever infer that any specific person is going to be acting like X based on such generalizations

 

[17:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So as Lysana also pointed out, it's not wise to just infer any Dom/me will act like X type sadist

 

[17:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thank You Sir!

 

[17:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Christina, you have the final word for today!

 

[17:25] Christina (Christina Halpin): In my very limited experience, I once had a sub who wanted pain. I asked a bit, and found out the world was beating him up, and I decided to do something else besides inflict pain. Is that reasonable? Or was I just forcing him to go elsewhere?

 

[17:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Did the sub enjoy it?

 

[17:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Did you enjoy it?

 

[17:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because that's the only critical question

 

[17:26] Christina (Christina Halpin): disagree

 

[17:26] Christina (Christina Halpin): #

 

[17:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's fine, how so though?

 

[17:27] Christina (Christina Halpin): me? I agree, that a dominant could give pain simply because the dominant wanted to and the sub agreed.

 

[17:27] Christina (Christina Halpin): I don't think that way.

 

[17:27] Christina (Christina Halpin): I had reasons every time I gave pain.

 

[17:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If the sub agrees but isn't enjoying it, or wouldn't enjoy X, it's their duty to say "this isn't working out."

 

[17:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because if they don't it's abuse but the Dom/me doesn't even know it

 

[17:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In this lifestyle, saying "I like X" just to make someone happy is downright dangerous to the self.

 

[17:29] Christina (Christina Halpin): so the dominant tries to find out why the sub wants pain. That's great, like I said my experience is lilmited

 

[17:29] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): /me nods firmly and rapidly toward Vanni

 

[17:29] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Communication is of the very essenceµ

 

[17:29] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees

 

[17:29] Christina (Christina Halpin): and self-awareness?

 

[17:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right, Christina!  If someone came to me and said "I want you to beat me silly" and can't express what they want, and even more importantly to me, WHY they want it, I'd tell them to think about what they're asking and why

 

[17:30] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I  know at one time I was cage by one of our Dom's in Xaara at the time and I did say the same thing. He did not let me go because the cage had a timed lock on it. Is that abuse?

 

[17:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If you said "I don't like this, please end it" and the Dominant didn't, yes, that's' abuse

 

[17:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): period.  full stop.

 

[17:30] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): nods

 

[17:31] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): use your safeword to be clear

 

[17:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (as opposed to "Oh I hate this, let me out *wink wink, nudge nudge*"

 

[17:31] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): absolutely

 

[17:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Christina, never feel like any question you have, or anything you might disagree with, would ever have anyone throw shade at you here.

 

[17:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are all learning together.

 

[17:32] Christina (Christina Halpin): I like that. Yes.

 

[17:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I appreciate your candor and desire to talk and learn with us! :)

 

[17:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We're a good bunch I think lol

 

[17:33] Lysana Blackwing (Lysana McMillan): mhm... the thing we like to avoid is shaming people for their preferences ㋡

 

[17:33] Christina (Christina Halpin): yes

 

[17:33] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): sharing is caring :)

 

[17:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you A/all for the fabulous comments and questions

"D is for Discipline" -- February 12, 2023

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vanessa.cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vanessa.cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vanessa.cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli (vanessa.cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli (vanessa.cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli (vanessa.cannoli): The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

 [16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last week we talked about Bondage, so anyone who may have missed that discussion or wants to review it (with all the nonsense from the troll we had grace us with his flatulence last week removed), it is on the above website.

 

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are going through the BDSM acronym and I expect this will take us into April at least

 

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Depending on how much people want to talk about various topics

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are going over B/D, last week was Bondage, this week.

 

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discipline is the act of some kind of punishment or correction of a person.

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have talked about this a few times, but in the interest of clarity and for newer folks, we have two ways to look at this.

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First is actual punishment.  Punishment is a tool in a D/s relationship for the breaking of a rule that has been negotiated between the Dominant and the submissive.  Any rule within the agreed upon limits of the relationship needs to be obeyed, so a punishment is to stop a behavior that is not desired.

 

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In the behavioral sciences, we talk about reinforcement and punishment.  We want to reinforce desired behaviors and punish bad behaviors to keep them from happening.

 

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There are different ways to do both that are beyond the scope of this disucssion really.

 

[16:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, if we really need to punish any person....wayward child, naughty sub...then the punishment needs to have three characteristics:

 

[16:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First it must be swift, done as close as possible in time to the infraction.

 

[16:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Second it must be certain, it WILL happen, or the punisher (not the comic book character) will look weak in the eyes of the person and so not an authority figure.

 

[16:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And third, it must be Rational, meaning the level of punishment is tied to the infraction.

 

[16:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Insane punishments for light infractions just breed contempt.

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And light punishments for serious infractions teach nothing.

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "You killed AGAIN Miss Cannoli?  That's another $100 fine for you!"

 

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd be droppin' Franklins like candy

 

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So that's actual Punishment

 

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good Doms will reinforce positive things in their charges, and use punishment sparingly but WILL do it if/when necessary.

 

[16:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The other kind of Discipline is what we lovingly call here "funishment'

 

[16:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or acts between the Dom and sub that are really more of a negotiated role play to get a scene going.

 

[16:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But are not really infractions of rules.

 

[16:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, just as example....*looks around*...Lyra might "stick her tongue out" at Miss Cherry, and then Miss Cherry spanks her a bit.

 

[16:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If they know between them that such is negotiated and only for getting a bit of a scene going, that's not really "rule breaking"

 

[16:27] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Omg, she will never do that ... will she ??? *frowns*

 

[16:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's funishment

 

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I hope I have not given her idea Miss Cherry, but you might have to punish her!

 

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Spank her!  And then....spank me!

 

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lots of Dom and subs have little games they play with each other that are negotiated, or even parts of larger role plays.

 

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For those of Y/you that know Miss Tann and her sub Aoisle, there is lots of banter between them that might look like Aoisle is misbehaving, but it is negotiated fun between them that allows them the interplay they both enjoy.  Aoisle would not actually disobey her owner.  I know her well enough.

 

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So that's all good.

 

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So finally getting to the questions for the day

 

[16:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1) Do Y/you enjoy "funishment" and do Y/you use it in your D/s interactions, or not?  (some will not, seeing it trite)

 

[16:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 2) If there is real discipline that needs to be administered, how is it handled?

 

[16:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We start with Master Abraham, please

 

[16:31] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): Discipline is not just beating. For my girls who are used to whip in RL , a beating is fun, and a whip a play toy. I have to things like disapproval, isolation in a cage, or just not talking to them for a day. But , that needs to be followed up with love and caring when the point is made . Or make up sex. But , i have seen too many let their women control them with no correction. Or treat other masters poorly with no consequences. It usually ends with if you have any problems with what i just said , go to my master who then does a thats ok baby. A sub represents who he is and should shine if he is there or not and be disciplined if she does not act well.

 

[16:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  nods

 

[16:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What You described Master is really a form of "Topping from the Bottom"

 

[16:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And while we can't judge what others do, I think most of us here find that kind of thing unacceptable.

 

[16:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think I speak for my fellow subs here when I say all most if not all of us need to hear is something like "You did wrong, I'm disappointed you couldn't follow through or do what you were told."

 

[16:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After you recover from your self-induced cry-coma, you're begging forgiveness minus anything else.

 

[16:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said, thank You Master!

 

[16:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aspen has a question!

 

[16:36] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Thank you Vanni,  What about us subs that are not owned? If we do something wrong and it should be discipline by who?

 

[16:36] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): By me, of course

 

[16:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well on an interpersonal D/s level Aspen, you have no real rules so you're not doing anything "wrong" in that regard.

 

[16:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On a Xaara level, if you broke some rule of the sim, you would have to answer to the Dominants here, up to Master Laz.

 

[16:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also I believe you are a Community Slave?  They have to answer to Master Roman and above.

 

[16:38] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): By not addressing a dominate right and If I had a Master then I should have been discipline.

 

[16:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well you do need to follow sim rules for subs, but if some person thought you were supposed to use a title beyond what is required, that person really need to examine the website.

 

[16:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Opinion" =/= "Rules"

 

[16:40] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some guy a few years ago IMed me that I was supposed to call him "High Lordship"....no joke.  It was in his profile

 

[16:40] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): chokes

 

[16:40] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm like "when did you join the Peerage?"

 

[16:41] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He blocked me quickly...poor me.  I lost a *great* chance....*sobs*

[16:41] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Aspen!

 

[16:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to the Blonde Devil in the cool Red Dress!

 

[16:42] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Okay, I went Rouge and thought ahead today....

 

[16:42] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): I'm not sure if or how this fits the spectrum of discipline, maybe as reinforcing desired behavior, pre-emptive discipline(?), maybe you can tell me, but my Mistress has given me rules that constrain my behavior and mold my mind and attitude.  Things that earn disapproval if I don't obey.  Things like only nudity at home, a greeting ritual, and the requirement that every time I log on, I must say, in public chat, whether I'm alone or not, "Dolls are toys that please others.  I am a doll."  That last one is new for past few weeks and I can't describe the wonderful feelings I get from doing that.  What I can say is that Mistress is very wise to remind me of my place and the pleasure I find in adhering to her expectations.  I want more!

 

[16:42] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): If all goes to plan, at the end of this month,  I'll be spending 9 days as a very restricted pony/mare at a ranch I'm joining, subject to all sorts of discipline, I expect.  (I may not be at Klatch during that time.)  I'm a little wary of being so controlled but at the same time I'm over-the-moon excited about it, looking forward to it, as I'm sure many subs can understand.  I hope that I can meet that challenge of obeying the ranch rules and being pleasing.

 

[16:44] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): Yay Brianne!  (Gets out Carrie's Story and retitles it for Brianne)

 

[16:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In behavioral science we differentiate between Reinforcement and Punishment.  What Miss Katie is doing is reinforcing what she wants you to do with praise (so it's positive)

 

[16:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And sending you off to be ponified for a week

 

[16:45] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): I do respond to that pretty well.

 

[16:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As you said you are looking forward to that, it's also a form of reinforcement

 

[16:46] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  is super happy for brianne, and wishes her all the best. loving the idea of being locked down like that for x period of time

 

[16:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We don't talk about "reward" when discussing behavior modification, btw.  It's either to reinforce desired behavior or discard unwanted behavior.

 

[16:46] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods

 

[16:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the bondage is being used to modify your behaviors.  You go, sister!

 

[16:46] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ^ ^

 

[16:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you Brianne!

 

[16:47] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Thank you!

 

[16:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move on to Peaches please!

 

[16:47] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): Thank you Vannie.

Please dont worry about what I'm about to say, everything is good now but...

 

I was an abused child, both physically and sexually so, surprise, surprise, I can't endure being whipped,

 

This is NOT a problem for my Master because,,,well,,,I'm an ANGEL! HAHAHA. But seriously, I can't think of anything, in the last 13+ years, I cant think of any punishable offenses that I have done.

 

There have been a few occasions where Master has had to step in and say, "ok ladies, thats enough", when Candy and I have had a few sisterly words. But other than that...

 

I would rather be whipped bloody by my God Emperor than to even disappoint him.. If I were to embarrass him or dishonor him in some way,, I think I would simply die.#

 

[16:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes indeed!

 

[16:48] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods knowingly and appreciatively of Peaches

 

[16:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Subs and slaves are extensions of their owners as Master Abraham said, our behaviors should always be with them and their prestige in mind.

 

[16:49] Ballard (Ballard Svenska):  takes on a thoughtful expression as he tries to recall Peaches actually doing something 'puinishable'.  "Calling me God Emperor" makes it all good

 

[16:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's not unlike how snotty brat kids in public make the parents look "non-parental"

 

[16:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Can't they control their kids, what kind of idiots are they?"

 

[16:50] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  knows has danced that line a few times in the early days, and soon learned her lesson

 

[16:52] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Peaches, thank you for that, your contributions are always timely and pleasing to your God-Emperor. *grins*

 

[16:52] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move on to Miss Cherry, please!

 

[16:52] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Thank you Vanni

 

[16:52] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): For those who know me, i am not into hard punishment. Like Vanni has put it, a word of disapproval can weigh harder than a real 'physical punishment' Telling your subbe that you disapprove should be enough. After all it's a set of rules that shouldhave been agreed on before we start our "play". If your sub doesn't takes that serious, you can wonder if you are not wasting your time. Same goes for the Domme / Master by the way. 

"Funishment' on the other hand is a very core item of my interaction. Things should be FUN for both Domme and Subbe. After all we all work hard enough in RL, and we are here to show our love and respect to each other. That should not be hard work, but an act of commitment. I disagree with people that take themselves too serious. You only have to read the news to see how that ends up....

 

[16:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, Miss!

 

[16:53] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Thank you vanni :-)

 

[16:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We always need to remember that everyone in this lifestyle approaches it differently...some very relaxed, some very seriously, and anything in between.  What's important is what works for *U/us*

 

[16:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rules should be taken seriously, but they are the rules that the Dom and sub create between them, not rules that apply to anyone else.  So I find it amusing when others think *I* should be living by their rules.

 

[16:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But it occasionally happens lol.

 

[16:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You know, like how I'm supposed to cook and clean and iron shirt and give a blow job to Sir C.....well him.  Yep, that's happening.

 

[16:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Miss Cherry thank You!  Well said and a great first contribution to our Sunday chats!

[16:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Does anyone else have a comment or question or our topic?  *noting the empty chairs and figuring bowls of Cheetos are being filled as we speak*

 

[17:01] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I  need the discipline and structure. But I love the Funishment because that is the icing on the cake..

 

[17:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Funishment is fun as long as it's clear what the parameters of the "misbehavior" are.

 

[17:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Meaning, the limits needs to be clear

 

[17:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some s-types, especially Brats, like pushing those limits.

 

[17:03] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I do need the correction of my behavior at time when I stick my foot in my mouth.

 

[17:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But as long as it's clear what the "infraction" is and that's it's just a way to get something going that is acceptable between both, it's fine.

[17:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you Aspen!

 

[17:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone else?

 

[17:05] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Vanni, thank you for leading a fine and interesting discussion.  Go Chiefs