"Being Risk Aware" -- September 7, 2025

 [15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've been keeping up the blog archive since I started in March so everything since is there

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last week our topic was "Third Party Consent" -- what are the ethical requirements about people our scenes in public?

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We had a rousing discussion on that and it is the current discussion archived on the blog.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You can read that later if you missed it or want a refresher.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today, as a corollary to that, I want to discuss the need for being "Risk Aware" at all in SL.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, I have a little exposition as usual to start

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then we'll go to the queue...please put in a C or a Q as I spout here for a few mins as ideas come up

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There are two schools of thought here

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The first is that SL is a virtual world...maybe even a game....and this avatar you see isn't "real" in the sense I can be hurt here

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): When I got to Xaara today I TPed via the map from my home

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and fell maybe 20m

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): onto the ground by the Cafe

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now a 20m fall would cause damage yeah?

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But here I iz, fresh as a daisy, and my lipstick didn't even smear.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So by extension, as we can't be hurt...what exactly is it we are worrying about with this "risk aware" stuff?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Why do you need a "safeword" at all...doesn't the "X" at the top of the screen in the red box suffice?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (I've had people tell me that btw)

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So why worry about all this stuff...jump in, have fun, and TP away if it doesn't suit your fancy.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The other school that SL is an extension of First Life.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And we need to have care about other people here rather than just all do our things, consequences be damned.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also, people can certainly be hurt here...emotional and psychological harm are real.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if a person is mirroring a scene, or doing a scene on video with their other, even possible physical harm is there if they are hitting or doing something to themselves while the SL scene is going on

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In this school of thought, ethics are necessary.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, the questions for today for this august assembly are:

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1) do we really need to be "risk aware" in a virtual world?

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 2) If so, to what level?  The same as in First Life if we were doing a scene, or is some lesser form based on the people and the scene in question ok?  Would you do something here in SL you would never do in First Life?

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's my exposition

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kat when you are ready please!

 

[15:54] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): Maybe especially if I do things here in SL that I would or could no longer do in RL, I stress being aware of my partner's limits, reactions, feelings etc... communication and knowledgeable consent are so important in SL as much as RL

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've been doing this Klatch since 2019 I think and that's always been the key word -- communication.

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The central issue I am asking is...*why* do we need to do this in a world where we stay young and gorgeous and fall 5000m meters without a parachute and make it in time for tea?

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wahat are the ethics of it?

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Draya when you are ready please

 

[15:57] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i Believe its just as important to be aware of risk in SL as it is in RL, yes Sl has no real risk of physical harm like RL, but thats also the easier kind of harm to recover from, SL on the other hand has the mental aspect, we are all connected though the screens by our minds, and that can and will be come hurt throughout your time here in SL, its happened to us all, i can say that with clear certainty, and that is not as easy to recover from, and like the physical can leave lasting scars, il use the most common one. as an example, heart break, some may see SL as a game, (i do not to be clear) but we are real people behind out avatars, with real feelings and they go deep at times, leaving you legitiemtly vunerable to others, and then that is abused it can hurt, alot, for a long time,

 

[15:57] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):  myself included are very connected with this world, and often the box is not the first thought, we are immersed here live here, feel here, also safewords are not for running away. they are stopping what is happening and in the right situation begin renegotiation about why it had to stop. you cant do that if you hit the red box.

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Great points Draya!

 

[15:59] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): ♥

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For me the X is the final "there is no hope here"...if a Top were doing something off the charts bad and ignored safewords and "Stop the F* now!" then I go that route

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and I agree...I scene with serious people in both worlds

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if what we are a doing is a "game" to someone...go find someone else to play Kinky KandyLand with

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not your girl

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thanks Draya!

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Kat please!

 

[16:01] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): ..Well said, Dray   ...because psyches and emotions can very much be harmed in SL... *emotional* well being, pleasure & safety are absolutely impacted for positive & negative - or why would we play here?

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% agreed Kat

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok!  Good point and thank you!

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Shae please!

 

[16:05] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): Honestly, even vanilla peeps should be "risk aware", but of course most don't think about it in the way we do. The person driving the avatar we interact with is a real person, with real feelings. And many of us do identify and connect with that person on the other side. We can't be careless with each other's hearts and feelings.

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It is very possible to do emotional harm to others here

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm sure many if not most of us have felt some degree of it at some point

 

[16:08] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):  nods.

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I agree that both vanilla and D/s lifestyle people need to take care for themselves and others.

 

[16:08] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):  has lost count

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well said thank you!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus you are up please

 

[16:09] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I think that our fellow kinksters need to be aware that SSC, RACK, PRICK (or your favorite acronym of choice) are more than just physical guidelines. In an RL setting, these also apply to our mental well-being, so it only makes sense that it still applies in an SL setting. In my personal opinion, those who claim that it's just a game are telling you exactly what to expect from them. They're just playing a game and they don't take the BDSM world seriously. If your goals are in alignment with theirs, then have a good time. On the other hand, some of us take this more seriously, we're more emotionally invested in our interactions and relationships here in SL. For those folks, like myself, being risk-aware is critical to our own mental health and warrant sifting through the players to find those who have common goals. And, of course, we do that through communication.

 

[16:09] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):  Here's a recent example: I knew a girl in a Maledom sim who had disliked public play. All well and good, right? Except that some of the "doms" hanging around thought nothing of it and would play with her publicly. She reached a point where she would be crying in RL because of the humiliation in SL. That's resolved now, and she's been empowered to say 'no' to things that she doesn't want to do, but it shows how the "players" can cause harm without communication.#

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ugh ...that treatment of her was appalling

 

[16:11] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Absolutely it was. And I have a white-knight syndrome problem, so I put myself in the middle of it, even when she asked me not to.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I agree there are a good number of players on both sides of the D/s slash that don't get how there is a real, flesh and blood person at the end of the fiber optic cable

 

[16:11] Payton (Kinksterguy Resident): Agreed

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I am glad an ethical person stepped in Magnus!  It says much about your character -- all good! ♥

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And as for this being a game...I'd have to ask a person "so what are the winning conditions?"

 

[16:13] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): Right!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not an NPC person handing out BDSM missions on demand.

 

[16:13] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): win conditions for most is to make a tissue sticky

 

[16:13] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):  laughs at first... then ponders the idea of an NPC BDSM quest giver.

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right, Draya

 

[16:13]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): snickers

 

[16:14] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):  marks "Vanni-side-quest" off her to-do list.

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I might give you the same mission over and over Imy *giggles*

 

[16:14] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): OH, darn.

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ha!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus, excellent comment and actions...thank you again.

 

[16:15] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Thank you.

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hey Poe

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we move to Autumn please!

 

[16:15] Poe OwO (Poe OwO): Hello, Vanni~

 

[16:15]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Yes, we for sure need to be risk aware in a virtual world.  You need to know the person you are with, why they are here.  I came to SL to experience things I couldn't in RL because my then partner wasn't into what I was.  I wanted to learn, and have some form of experience that I couldn't get in RL.  Now, I have a partner into the things I am, but between long distance and some physical limitations, SL gives us a chance to do things we might not be able to do in person.  So communication is key to understand why the other is here.  I am able to get physical responses in RL from things that happen to my avi, so if something is done to my avi that may trigger me in RL, it's important for my partner to know that when it happens.  Just clicking an X doesn't allow for either party to learn more about each other and grow.  Plus, for me, sometimes the mental aspect of things can be more damaging than anything physical.  In my opinion, most physical things heal a lot faster than mental wounds.  Also, in general, a platform like SL makes bullies worse in my opinion, because they feel like because it is "just an avi" that they aren't doing harm.  So I agree with what Shae said, it should be a universal thing. 

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see the "this is a game and you can't be hurt" having a similar mindset to trolls on social media, the type that just flit from profile to profile saying hurtful things just to have "fun"

 

[16:17]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Yes

 

[16:18] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier):  waves to Mx Poe :)

 

[16:18] Poe OwO (Poe OwO):  waves to Pilar~

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): while sociopathy is fairly rare, it seems the online world, in its myriad forms, gives many of them a place to congregate

 

[16:18]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Narcissists as well

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed

 

[16:19] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow):  nods grimly

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thanks Autumn!

 

[16:19] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): The whole "one bad apple" idea unfortunately applies to the internet, as well. One sociopath can make color the entire experience.

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): truth

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We will move to Ella now please

 

[16:22] ella (ellabi Resident): Risk awareness is in some way more important in second life than in first life. In RL it is easier to spot an abuser and easier to avoid any such contact. At SL all interactions are registrered by brain, both yummy feelings and potential harm. I can be pushed to do things I would not LIKE in RL but never ever to do anyting unthinkable. Trust, respect and connection is totally necessary and that process involves risk awarenes. My soul, brain, heart and emotions are the same in both worlds. First characters to avoid: "you are just an avatar, you can do anything here". done but can clarify if you fancy

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): An issue is we don't have tone of voice or expression here that help us to discern more about a person (unless one uses voice or video but that's a different area)

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I agree that reading words only *can* lead to being easier lulled into less of a suspicious mindset for many

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but sooner or later, often sooner in my experience, that person with ill intent does make some comment or does some thing that gets my attention

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In 20 years of SL (wow) *most* of my interactions have been positive, but there have been a few that set off my spider sense

 

[16:26] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): They do out themselves. Just gotta know what to look for.

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right

 

[16:26] Poe OwO (Poe OwO): just remember looks can be deceiving lol

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): indeed!

 

[16:27] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): (Said as Mx Poe looks innoce-... *chokes on the word*)

 

[16:27] Poe OwO (Poe OwO):  looks between herself and Jason, "I'm definitrly the nice one, right?"

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I look cute but...watch out for the Sicilian underneath.... :P

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks ella!

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's move on to Imy to see if she finished her BDSM mission...I mean...her comment...

 

[16:27] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): I am notoriously a proponent of PRICK over RACK, because I believe in scening that it's not solely a Dominant's responsibility to educate me on the risk involved, and that I'm a fully-capable, intelligent adult and can take responsibility for my own education on scenes/kinks/activities that I'm inexperienced with.  THAT SAID... I think where Risk-Aware has its perfect place is in describing relationships.  I'm often told that I get hurt as deeply as I do in relationships because I expect people to be as genuine with me as I am with Them... and not E/everyone is like that.  So to try and apply the "Personally Responsible" aspect of PRICK to those situations... how much am I ~truly 'personally responsible' for if They were never genuine with me in the first place?  I can't be held responsible for someone else's deception and malice... but I should still be aware that it can happen.  I know the risks of getting involved with other humans on as deep a level as D/s and M/s can be, so Risk-Aware is truly the best way to describe that principle, to me anyway. There's another thought brewing in my brain, too, but I need more caffeine first, so I'll shut up for now.  xD #

 

[16:30] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Excellent point, Imy.

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person can only be held liable for something if they understood the nature of the contract.  If a person was false with me then I can't be held responsible for what I couldn't know.  That said, we have to be responsible first and foremost for ourselves.

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I think a person has some issue brewing, well..I'll talk with them in a public setting, but not go anywhere private with them.

 

[16:31] Payton (Kinksterguy Resident): Well said Imy

 

[16:31] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):  dips her head

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Imy is smart, it's good to have her back here!

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥♥

 

[16:31] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):  smiles

 

[16:31] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): You flatter me

 

[16:32] Poe OwO (Poe OwO): you're hot too.

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wait til I give you your next mission.  It involves finding something "red"....or getting something made red...uh...we'll talk later, love.

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seriously, well said and thank you for that comment!

 

[16:33] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):  takes notes

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): MansooR we come to you please!

 

[16:35] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): So.. risk awareness is very vdry important.......to the point that if the standards are not followed.. one still clarify.....which i didnt.....short of the story is that i met someone a year ago..and all was going well.....till i took out the flogger....and she ran......and.. i was like.... she had no limits in her profile..nor given me an nc.....

 

[16:35] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):  nods. Communication, communication, communication.

 

[16:35] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i shd have made sure to ask for the liits

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): limits

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): and not assume... yes.. comms are important.....and not take things for ganted

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): even if we are enjoying.. you never know what wil happen net

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes

 

{16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A quick RL story applies here

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Domme in my RL community went to a conference with her then subby boy, but she takes no toys on her trips as she doesn't want to have to explain to TSA what they are.

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So she and her boy went to the conference and when they got to the hotel room that evening he wanted a scene

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and he found an electrical cord in a drawer and said "here, hit me with this"

 

[16:38] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):  cringes.

 

[16:38]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): winces

 

[16:39] Payton (Kinksterguy Resident): Damn! Didn't they know what it can do?

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  When she did he suddenly started crying like crazy and got into a ball, sobbing

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so...scene over immediately and she held him for an hour

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it wasn't physical damage at all

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she didn't even hit him hard with it

 

[16:40] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): That sounds like a trauma trigger.

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): what happened was when she did smack his ass, a repressed memory of his dad hitting him with an electrical cord surfaced

 

[16:40]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): nods softly

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  prior abuse

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so she held him until he could talk

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and then when they got back she made sure he started therapy

 

[16:40] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow):  nods solemnly

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and made sure he was being helped

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but she was horribly guilty over it

 

[16:41] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): looks like trauma in my story.......

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But that wasn't her fault, she couldn't have known as *he* didn't know ... it was repressed

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the ethical thing was stop, hold, get help

 

[16:42] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): She did all the right things. Poor boy.

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and she did all the right things there

 

[16:42] Payton (Kinksterguy Resident): Exactly, the focus has to IMMEDIATELY move to taking care of your partner. The scene be damned!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That is how we should approach any situation like that.

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Payton

 

[16:43] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i tried talking.. but she ran off....and never replied toi me saying that she shd at least have her limits

 

[16:43] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): am done

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So point is...you couldn't have known MansooR...in a situation like that, we learn what to do next time.  As you said, communication.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And she really should have said what was wrong and you could have moved on to an alternative.

 

[16:44] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): yes... i know.. but as a dom..i took it on myself as to why i didnt ask for the obvious thig

 

[16:44] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): and it hurt cause it was fun..and had a good thing going

 

[16:44] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Consider it a learning experience.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right

 

[16:45] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i did!

 

[16:45] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): We can't change the past, but we should certainly learn from it.

 

[16:45] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): one more thing if i may

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you and sorry for the aside there, but I thought that story relevant to this.

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sure go ahead

 

[16:46] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): crap..lost my thought.....if it comes back.. i ll raise my hand..

 

[16:46] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): sorry

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): No worries!

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Where are we again?  I'll have a pumpkin spice spanker with extra leather please...

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): shae back to you please!

 

[16:47] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (shae.shadow): I didn't plan for my comment to dovetail in this way. But in a similar vein to Vanessa's anecdote just now... Edge play fantasies are easier for many to explore in SL -- and seem to be very popular. Themes of emotional masochism/sadism, such as cucking, objectification, free use, CNC, and so on. It bears remembering that just as in RL when playing this way, what's "fun" one minute can easily cross the line into "too much: bad now". In RL, you can watch for cues closely, but in SL, you're somewhat flying blind when you play this way. So communication and 'checking in' become even more important here. ((done))

 

[16:47] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I got you for the leather Vanni ;)

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  winks at Jason-Lenore 😉

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes yes and yes shae!

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As both MansooR and Imy pointed out...we have to be clear on either side of the slash, on  what's going on before and during a scene

 

[16:48] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): oh.... raises hands

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if I'm a bottom, and we are moving into a sketchy spot for me, I ethically have to tell the Top about it, what to look for, and if things go sideways to stop

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You can explore, just do it ethically

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Shae thanks!

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok Mansoor, we'll go to you and then Draya will finish off our talk

 

[16:50] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so... we talk a lot about comms... but comms do require courage

 

[16:50] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): am done...

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree...sometimes it's hard to admit certain things

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): for example, some bottoms/s-types don't feel they can safeword as it might hurt or upset the Top or Dom

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Believe me as a switch that does a LOT of First Life scenes as a Top, I 100% want you to safeword or say "slow down"

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the last thing I ever want to do is hurt someone

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in a bad way of course...

 

[16:52] Poe OwO (Poe OwO):  smirks

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I agree, we need to be able to communicate what is going on

 

[16:53] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): I prefer to hurt them in a delish way

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and if the other person, D or s, gets pissy about it...that's not a person to interact with

 

[16:53] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): true

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said

 

[16:54] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): many subs dont understand tht with a good Dom, if you dont safeword and get hurt by it, THEY HURT YOU! and they will feel bad about it, so by not using it you hurt ytou both,

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Correct!

 

[16:54] Poe OwO (Poe OwO): so true

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): OK Draya you finish us off today

 

[16:54] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): ok sorry again... here goes :p

 

[16:54] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Excellent point, Draya.

 

[16:54] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): its very easy for some to hide their true side here in SL, play nice, say all the right things that experience of doing it to others has shown them what works, they know how to get what they want and play nice to start, they know getting past the first walls and making that connection with others opens up many more options to get what they want even at the detriment to the one they have targeted, as has been said we dont have things like body language, tone, all we see is what they present, usually a nice calm polite person that wants what is best for you, till you get to know them more, and then.. well we all know what happens from where, so yes, i agree with Ella, risk awareness is more important in SL for those reasons than it is in RL as its easier in RL "sus" someone out. in SL you are the one at the disadvantage while they get all the buffs.. saddly this can lead to many, (myself included) that trust no one for a very long time, ive built my walls so thick that i can often miss out on something that may have been good, if this was just a game i would just reload and go again, the fact im scared to do something in this virtual world proves its more than just a game.

i also just want to make a comment on the hotel thing, many think they can not happen in SL, and it can, very easily, especially for those that have a strong connection to their avatar, if i see something happening to my Avatar my mind makes a connection to it, without even trying now a days, and they have pulled up bad things before, its more important to be aware of this in SL as unlike your Example, i cant be held for hours to recover. if it goes bad enough to end up in a ball crying, i cant even tell you whats happening.. this does still full under the need to be risk aware of who you with, but also cements the need for deep conversation and negotiation before doing anything with someone.  at the same time, also be aware that letting some people know what can trigger you can also be used against you so make that risk assessment before  you do too.

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right! I think all of that was spot on...and I failed my save so now I'm trapped in the wall of text until I fail my literacy save :P

 

[16:56] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):  giggles

 

[16:57] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): sorry its all your fault for my wall o texts, you all make such good points that it just keeps growing till its my turn

 

[16:57] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident):  rolls a nat 20 and gives the roll to Miss Vanni

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): woot

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One other thing...here in SL as on social media, the fact there are no immediate consequences means those few sociopathic jerks get to do their thing and feel no immediate repercussions.

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I say something foul to someone in public in first life, there is an immediate reaction.

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Here....I say something foul and what happens, someone gets mad, which was my goal, and then I tp away to the next victim

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): same on social media

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so my point is...online gives those few sociopaths a playground and we need to watch out for them

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Don't be paranoid, but do be careful

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Everything you said was spot on Draya, thanks

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And thank you everyone, again...y'all shine

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and you are why Xaara is such a solid community of ethical people

 

[17:00] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Thank you, Vanessa, and everyone, for a wonderful discussion.

 

[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll be back in two weeks during the Festival

 

[17:01] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident):  whispers "such a good discussion...Thank you E/everyone"

"Third Party Consent" -- August 24, 2025

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"Brats and Bratting!" -- August 10, 2025

 [15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The usual blurb follows....

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is the last discussion in the "BDSM" acronym series

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): when we gather in two weeks we'll start a series of more general discussions

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but as knowledge builds on knowledge, what we have discussed here will inform future discussions

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so don't hit 'erase!' 😉

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we discuss a very misunderstood kind of submissive....The Brat

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After "Babygirls" which we discussed last week, Brats tend to cause the most consternation.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a very deep love/hate kind of feeling toward Brats

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Brat is not just a 'cheeky sub'

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Cheeky sub has a sense of humor, might say some off the wall, sarcastic things, or have some interesting behaviors that could rub people the wrong way, but doesn't take things to the level of The Brat.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Brats are also often referred to by others as "Attention Whores"

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which may be in a way true, as Brats are usually finding new and improved ways to keep their Dominant on their toes and "make things more fun"...involving some new screwball kind of behavior.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the attention to detail is often the important parthere

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): An example I've used before.....

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master HottDude says to his Bratty slave "Go make me coffee"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Slave says "Yes Master!" and runs into the kitchen

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He can smell the coffee brewing and smiles.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ten minutes later, she comes back in the living room minus coffee, and plops back on the couch..

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Y'all can see where this is going..

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master HottDude says "Hey...where's my coffee?"

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): She looks back with an incredulous look and says, loudly, "WELL YOU SAID to *make* coffee. You didn't say you want any!"

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:48] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   smiles and nods.

 

[15:48] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):   giggles

 

[15:49] Mal (Pwnography Resident): Not the coffee

 

[15:49] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):   looks innocent

 

[15:49] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i may or may not have done that before..

 

[15:49] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): what did he expect from a brat

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So unlike the smart-alek, cheeky sub, the Brat is always looking for a new and improved way to "make things more fun" and keep the activity rolling.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Dominants that can't handle Brats are completely perplexed by this....WHY would a Dominant want to put up with such a person who is endlessly finding ways to contravene orders or do insane things?

 

[15:50] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Emotional masochism?

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That said...Brats are misunderstood by people so perplexed.

 

[15:51] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): they are not insane things, brats have a higher IQ than the mass, hence they seem insane ;p

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): They do intend to obey and serve...but what I have been told by Brats and read on their worldview is something like this..."I will obey but not to anyone.  Why should I just 'obey' in a mindless, rote way?  Make me obey and I will."

 

[15:52] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *sighs happily*

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and the kind of Dom  that appreciates Brats are the ones that like beig 'kept on their toes' so to speak, so they have to find new and improved ways to gain that obedience.

 

[15:52] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):   shakes my head

 

[15:53] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): A mental battle challenge?

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and of course before I turn  things over....what people consesually do is their biz.  If a sub is a Brat or not, or a Dom  wants to have a Brat as a sub or not, is all their personal choice.  As long as things are SSC and fall under RACK and PRICK rules, what people do is their concern and all we really want here is understanding and happiness for everyone.]

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So with all that said....

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The questions for the August Assembly today are: 1) Are YOU a Brat, and if so, what "excitement" do you like bringing your Dominant (or, if you are not one, what zany stuff have you seen Brats do?) and 2) If You are a Dominant who likes Brats, or dislikes them, why? What is it about a Brat that either attracts You or instantly repels You?

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and of course we do this in a spirit of understanding

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Shae you can start us when you're ready

 

[15:56] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): "Brat" is as close as anything to an accurate term for my submissive style

 

[15:57] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): The main thing it brings my D type is amusement and a way to initiate some display of dominance

 

[15:57] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): Rather than passively waiting to be dominated. If that makes sense

 

[15:57] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): *done*

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, I have had Brat subby friends say "it keeps the connection going as They have to find a new way to control my behavior"

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): rahter than how they see "instant expected obedience"

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I’m sort of paraphrasing here of course

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good start!  Thanks Shae!

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Kat please

 

[16:00] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): For me, there's a visceral delight in being able to radically realign a brat's attitude... the little meep when my hand goes for a nearby sharp pointy thing and I give her a LOOK

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and the audible "gulp"

 

[16:00] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):   meeps

 

[16:00] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): exactly

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hee hee

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent!

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much Kat!

 

[16:01] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): It's a dialogue, of sorts

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Aithne please!

 

[16:01] Aithne (Dryantillae Resident): no I do not consider myself a brat ... If a Dominant prefers their sub that way, I believe that to be their business...I love to please and if my Master wants a coffee, I wish to please Him ..I am new here but I would like to also ask a question ..can a slave also be a brat or is that more for a sub?

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone can answer her question if you wish

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no C please just answer

 

[16:02] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   nods. That's a very good question, Aithne. The short is yes, a slave can be a brat, so long as that's the dynamic that their Master enjoys.

 

[16:03] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): yes  one can be both.... brat is my slave & also... a brat

 

[16:03] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): The answer is the choice of the Dom/Domme and the sub, slave. I know of a few slaves that are bratty.

 

[16:03] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): I believe it's about tendencies - no one has to fit in a nice neat little box.  P/people who know me best would say I'm more slave at times, more babygirl at other times, more non-human role/pet at times, and brat sometimes too.  Labels aren't the be-all, end all, and people can be anything.  :)

 

[16:03] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i think people get tyoo caught up in lables, can a person have both slave traits and bratty ones, sure they can, im one :p im a brat that at times can be very slave like in some dituations or mind sets,

 

[16:03] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):   nods agreement

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Imy, make me coffee!

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :P

 

[16:04] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow):   dramatically point's at shae behind her back

 

[16:04] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): Sure thing, Miss Vanni - but if You want to drink the coffee, I'm gonna need more explicit instructions.  xD

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL

 

[16:04] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): but in what condition will you get your coffee, miss vanni? *grins with a wink

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I hoped you would do some "Harry Potter" thing and turn me in to a cuppa coffee

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "WELL YOU SAID...."

 

[16:05] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): Ah, the caffeine hasn't quite circulated enough for that level of thought xD

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   giggles

 

[16:05] Mal (Pwnography Resident): Latteus maximus?

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!

 

[16:05] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): hocus pocus affine opus! *poof!

 

[16:05] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   grins at Sir Mal.  Perfection.

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love all you folks

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you all who offered an answer.

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you Aithne

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and welcome to Xaara!

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok we move to Imy!

 

[16:06] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): For me - I can have brat tendencies, but only really with my own Master (or those Dominants I'm close to that are ok with such behaviors) and in an appropriate time/place.  Like I'm not going to cause a scene in a public ceremony, but I ~will +1 Him at every opportunity when W/we play Skip It, regardless of if His pile is the lowest or not.  Specifically so I can hear Him stop mid-sentence in O/our voice call and say, "Oh, eat my ~whole dick."  It makes me giggle.  I also try to keep in tune with His mood as much as I can - if He doesn't respond well to a joke/behavior/etc because He's tired or stressed from work, I don't push the issue.  I think that's the part that F/folks on the outside who judge brattiness don't see... we're not just indiscriminately being a dick in public without consent or reason... it's within O/our negotiated dynamic and I personally try to make sure I'm not forcing third party consent to my antics in a room full of P/people I don't know, especially when I don't know how T/they feel about brats or bratty behavior. #

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That was all really good Imy...and even the parts that are seen in public are due to do an understanding between the Dom  and Brat

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But that does make for a good other point...to what level can a Brat be one out in public...and if people get mad is that forcing a third party consent

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think soon we will do a whole discussion on third party consent

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as it's an important topic

 

[16:10] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Ooo, that's a good one.

 

[16:10] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   tips imaginary hat.  Happy to help give You another topic to slate.  xD

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I don't wanna get into that tangent here and now

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much Imy (still waits for coffee)... :P

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we move to Aries please

 

[16:11] Aries Amore (Aries Amore): thank you

 

[16:11] Aries Amore (Aries Amore): I agree that people get to caught up in labeling.  Sometimes it is just a matter of personality.  I wake up sometimes in a playful mood...and some Dominates would perceive this as being bratty.  But to me, I am happy and being playful.  It is the real me...and I do like the correction parts, even if subtle or gentle, it makes me feel my submission at my core. If I know a particular Dominate will view me as a brat or less than sub/slave, I will now feel free to be the real me, all of me. I will not share this part of me, which I believe can be enjoyable. And I am not like this ALL of the time,but this part does exist as I can be playful, (bratty).

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Several good points

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the line between "Cheeky Sub" and "Bratty Sub" is sort of muddled

 

[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): One persons cheeky is another persons bratty :)

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): one's cheeky subby girl or boy is another's "oh jesus a BRAT. let's go!"

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): jinx!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   hands Johan a coke

 

[16:13] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   grins

 

[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Danke'!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but spot on

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so that was a really good point, Aries

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you for your contribution!

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus, you are up please!

 

[16:14] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): First, I want to commend you on the way you present the topic - the brat thinking that she's making things more "interesting" and the unprepared dominant thinking she's being "difficult." That encapsulates the usual viewpoints very well. For me, that trouble that the brat went through to brew the coffee and not bring it to me just means that she'll be making two trips, possibly with a sore bum the second time.  I'll preface this by saying that I've never owned a brat, but I do know a few. I think too many might view the brat as unnecessarily "attention-grabbing" or any other number of negative labels. In my personal experience, however, I have found brats to be fun and witty. Even more so when you get two brats together and watch them go into conspiracy mode, but I digress. I have neither a like nor dislike for brats - they're just a form of extra-playful submissive to me and they require a different kind of handling.  Just as importantly, I'm attracted to intelligence and brats are often very sharp – almost as sharp as the implements that keep them in line.

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): not to say of course that non-brat subs are *not* intelligent or creative

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but Brats seem to have that....extra push up the ladder lol

 

[16:16] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): True, true. Did not mean to imply that.

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I know :)

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I read something years ago on a website from a Master that owned a Bratty Sub...he said the greatest sense of terror he would have is coming home from work...and she would be in the middle of the living room...kneeling and...grinning...

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He figured the ceiling was about to collapse on him

 

[16:17] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   laughs.

 

[16:17] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): hehehe

 

[16:17] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   chuckles.

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so yes...you speak well of Bratty subs!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and I do agree that "attention whore" is a negative term

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): autumn you are up please!

 

[16:18]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): I am not a brat, I even have a hard time unless extremely comfortable being cheeky, or even making intentional mistakes, not sure if that is due to CPTSD, or the tism.  I can see it's appeal, from a subs view, the reminder of being put in my place, or from a Dom s view, having to re establish the boundaries, but I couldn't do it myself.  I also prefer to not stand out, even if it's for good things, and I do prefer praise over discipline.   But I can see how others would enjoy that dynamic. #

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do not think that Brats are really trying to make their Dominant "mad"...otherwise they would not have said Dom .  I think it's more "let's push a bit and give you yet another fun opportunity to put me in my place."

 

[16:20] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):   nods emphatically at that last comment

 

[16:21]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Nods "But even that is out of my comfort zone"

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Understood!

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a switch it's not me either.

 

[16:21]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Smiles

 

[16:21] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): And there is nothing wrong with that, Autumn. Your form of submission is just as valid and valued.

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I appreciate anyone's way of doing things that are SSC and consensual....even if it's not my cuppa tea.

 

[16:22]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Exactly

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Becky ma chere....you are up!

 

[16:22] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): thank you chérie ♥

 

[16:22] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): My comment is in line with what many already said, adding some of my vision and some precisions (It is the resume of a paper I wrote recently for my local dungeon.)  In general, we tend to see brats as all about defiance—challenging authority, pushing to seize control of a situation, even blurring into what some would call topping from the bottom.  Bratting done well is none of that. At its best, it’s a playful, skillful dance that never seeks to take the reins away from the dominant.  The brat may tease, provoke, and push, but always with the intention of enhancing the connection, not undermining it. Some brats can be full-on mischief until a single clear order—or even a quiet “hush”—switches them instantly into full obedience.  They’re not there to derail; they’re there to make the power dynamic richer.   Many dominants love brats for exactly that reason: they know the brat fully acknowledges their authority and will respect it without question.  Of course, give a brat idle time and expect some creative improvisation, what else do you expect?

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   stands and claps

 

[16:24] Mal (Pwnography Resident):   knows those dashes anywhere

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Brava!  Brava!

 

[16:24] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): Excellent summary!

 

[16:24] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   applauds. Very well said.

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Spot on Becky

 

[16:25] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): its a subject close to heart, as I brat from both sides of the slash ;)

 

[16:25] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   grins and nods nods at Miss Becky.

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because in the end communication is always the thing

 

[16:25] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): I am loud, and I need attention, I love being looked at

 

[16:25] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): communication is the skeleton key to anything we do

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Indeed!

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you so much for that!

 

[16:26] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow):   nods excitedly at what Becky said

 

[16:26] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): ♥

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Draya, we move to you please!

 

[16:26] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i am a "brat", and im sure everyone that knows me know that, although i am many things, many aspects all rolled into one, but  one thing i hate though especially in SL (more rare in RL lifestyle) Brats get a bad name not just for what you spoke of with lack of understanding, but also by those out there being "assholes" to others and then just saying they a brat, being a brat is not about being an asshole, its never about breaking rules, a brat that breaks a rule is doing it wrong, (in my eyes) its about skirting that line, but never crossing it, following the rules to the letter at times, so much so that the Dominant has to adjust, think of a Brat like a genie, if you make a wish/command, you better be sure you word it exactly right, hehe, As has been said it keeps things flowing more naturally, my Old Daddy used to say "if I have a sub that always dose exactly as they are told all the time, how can i improve my ability to dominate,"  it keeps things going, always evolving, not getting stagnant like some can, its not an all the time thing and its often best if its not, then you can take your Dom by surprise and thats even better hehe,

But being a Brat is hard, balancing that line takes skill, especially with a good Dom that can close them loopholes, but thats part of the fun,

As for the attention grabbing, what sub does not want the attention of their dom? Brats are just more "active" about it, its not about being needy or attention seeking, its a dynamic that flows well back and forth, it can look negative to anyone outside, but then that can be said for any D/s Dynamic, a masochist being beaten brutally may look cruel to those that are not masochist....  anyway sorry il shut up now :)

 

[16:28]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Draya, you just answered my question, I agree that is why they get a bad name

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   makes a saving throw against "Wall of Text" :P

 

[16:28] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):   giggles

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All very well said Draya!

 

[16:29] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Well said, Draya. Maybe we need a discussion on "responsible bratting".

 

[16:29] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   checks Miss Vanni's throw.  "Nat 1, sorry, Miss."

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol Imy

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And to vanillas, if they came in this room and saw subs kneeling, they might flip out at all this perceived "abuse" of people....so your point about everything being relative is an important one

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): one person's abuse is another night of fun in the dungeon

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): whooo!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much for all that!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason-Lenore you are up please!

 

[16:31] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Thank you Vanni. Personally I'm not a fan of the brat dynamic. It's not that I don't like laughing and joking and playing around being silly, I absolutely do... but the idea of "make me obey" coming from a dynamic to me is baffling. If you have already submitted then in my mind the Dominant shouldn't have to force obedience, I shouldn't have to be on the look out for booby traps in my coffee. I can see for a scene that cashing in those ass checks that the mouth writes, being a fun aspect to play, but for day to day life? Hell no. If I am telling someone in my collar to do something, I expect it to be done, not that I'm gonna have to force them to complete a task or get my damned beverage. Now go ahead and make snarky comments, grumble and complain....don't care just get the shit done, I'll cash in more ass-checks during scene time. I don't have the time for disobedience, nor do I want to waste my time on a power struggle, it's exhausting. That is not what I got into this Lifestyle for, if I want that kind of defiance then I'll go get a vanilla partner with an attitude to not do what I want them to do. Hard pass. But maybe that's just the Leatherman talking, I like my rules, protocols, and decorum. #

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I was thinking coming from the Leather Community, "Brat" would be seen as not something all that positive

 

[16:32] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):   wonders whether "brat" was even a concept in Old Guard culture?

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and again, everyone has their preference and as long as we do our thing and respect others doing their thing, disagreement is fine

 

[16:33] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   grins at shae and nodnods.  Some understand it.

 

[16:33] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):   smirks "yeah Sir Jason is a grumpy man, he dont even like my glitter i got special for him... " sulks

 

[16:33] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Closest thing to a brat in Leather now are the pups

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have no desire to be a slave....zero...but I appreciate those that get fulfillment from "slavery" to a Dominant

 

[16:33] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): That makes sense, Master Jason

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Different strokes...for different folks...."

 

[16:34] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Snark don't bother me as long as there is successful execution of commands

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): actually can we talk about "strokes" at a later date *giggles*

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's fine!

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And subs in your dynamic will be attracted to that

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Sydney please!

 

[16:36] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): As a brat I am fishing for a response from my Master.  Usually I already have some idea what type of response I want and gauge my jest aiming for that outcome.  Past experience with different types and levels of brattish behavior elicit various expected comeback.  Being cheeky, disobedient, and naughty is fun. It creates a sense of playfulness that can be missing. A Brat must understand her Master's limits and where he draws the line ... the Dom also needs to understand how I view my jesting and how I use it.  It can be a fun dance between us.  But ... I also feel apprehensive about being a brat in public.  Other Doms in the area might have different limits and consider my remarks as disrespectful.  Having someone think I was disrespectful or caused harm to my Master would be extremely painful.  Bratting should be seen and used as something that is playful as long as it is maintained within my Master's limits and adds to his delight and happiness in the relationship. #

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that is how it works for you and how Johan and you set that up

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So it works

 

[16:37] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): he seems to like my brat

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I like all of you :)

 

[16:37] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):   giggles

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I also think if Johan said "Sydney not tonight" for whatever personal reason, you would quickly change said behavior.

 

[16:38] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): nods

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so the dynamic is important

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   smiles

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much!

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   spanks my bratty hand

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kahlan!  you are up please

 

[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): [09:26] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08): here is my comment, if i'm not back, please post it for me

 

[09:26] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08): Bratting and Babygirl both have such negative connotations on the whole. I have been called both and because of it being such a loaded word when either is directed at me I wince and have to wonder 'did I go too far this time, was it actually funny or come out sounding mean and rude.' There have been many a time that I did something thinking I was making others smile and laugh and just being lighthearted (such as my bio-degradable glitter confetti that is easy clean up) and in turn was called a Brat because one person didn't find it funny. It sent me in a spiral wondering if I actually wasn't funny, wasn't 'good', wasn't obedient... I'm now at a point where I ask others, Dom and sub, that witnessed the interaction if I was too far off base. But most times I only really 'let the glitter fairy out' when I'm comfortable with those I'm with so to have Brat thrown in my face when I do makes me question more than just myself. So when something comes up i mark it for later to be a little bit 'less' around these people the next time.

This is perhaps not exactly the slant you were looking for but this has been my experience in the realm of bratting. ##

 

[16:40] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   nods nods at Kahlan in understanding.

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that all makes perfect sense

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even the "cheeky/snarky" sub that isn't really a brat knows when and where it might not be appreciated

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and can dial it down

 

[16:41] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): If the glitter doesn't hurt the leather then I'm ok with it, but that metal glitter is a hard limit for me.

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Blowing up a glitter bomb at a wedding or funeral for example....no bueno

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee...good point Jason-Lenore!

 

[16:42] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I believe that metal glitter is technically called shrapnel.

 

[16:42] Aries Amore (Aries Amore): Exactly, we are conditioned over time to hide the playful parts of our personalities in public settings over time.

 

[16:42] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Yes

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kat back to you please!

 

[16:46] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): I will say, I think it takes a lot of mutual understanding & great lines of communication... a good brat can read when, how far etc... and in shae & my case, we had a much more traditional Owner/property relationship for *years* and had built up a LOT of understanding of each other .Dynamics sometimes evolve as needs do

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100%

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we are humans...we change

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not the same person I was a month ago, never mind five years ago

 

[16:48] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   smiles, nodnodding.

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so to think that any relationship is just static is not in line with human experience

 

[16:48] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): you are still as amazing in my eyes ♥

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   blows Becky a kiss

 

[16:48] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven):   giggles

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks Kat!

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan, we come to the third Dark family member please!

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thank you for this discussion Vanni,  I'm working on a write up as part of my Adept Syllabus specifically on Bratting and Brats & their Tamers. When I first came into BDSM, Bratting/Brat Play, wasn't common or openly acknowledged. It was only within the past 10-15 years that its become more common on SL and the larger D/s community that I've seen online.  My initial encounters with brats was non-consensual. They would purposefully misbehave and act like well... spoiled little children, in clubs and chats, and then pull the "Nyah nyah, you can't do anything to me, My Owner likes me this way and they won't listen to your complaint anyway so STFU!"   Which understandably left a bad taste in my mouth for the past decade regarding brats.  Only through owning/partnering Sydney have I become more understanding that its more about being 'playful' and 'impish' and well...   ME.... I am DEFINITELY a Bratty Dominant;  I don't want to give much more of my own upcoming Community Chat away on Brat play, so I hope those who are interested will keep an eye out for it and attend. :)     (shameless self plug )) #done

 

[16:48] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): That's why we have dynamics

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): undoubtedly there are annoying Brats that act like s**t and they give all Brats a bad name

 

[16:50] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Same to Johan's experience.

 

[16:50] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Excellent observation, Johan. I look forward to your chat.

 

[16:50] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): they are what i earlier referred to as "assholes"

 

[16:50] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I was just about to reference your comment, Draya.

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there are plenty of vanillas that I would strangle if it were legal LOL

 

[16:51] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): right...

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so again it's a bell curve...most are ok but it's the outliers that get the most viability and so affect perceptions

 

[16:51] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): One suggestion, lets stop calling these "assholes" brats, cause I don't think they are... and the fact they quite often act without prior consent doesn't feel like they deserve a second of our time, mine at least.

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed

 

[16:52] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I agree, Becky.

 

[16:52] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):   nods

 

[16:52] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow):   head moves up and down fast

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but at the same time there are "brats" that push thing far beyond what's acceptable, often in public, and that gets back to what Imy referenced....third party consent

 

[16:53] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   nods nods.

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sure y'all do what you want at home...

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway we'll get back to that

 

[16:53] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *massages Imy's neck to make sure it doesn't have a kink in it*

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks for that!!

 

[16:54] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   grins gratefully back at Master Johan.

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Imy back to you please!

 

[16:54] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): One thing that S/some here might remember, depending on how long you've been on the educational side of the Lifestyle community here in SL, is the community called Solace of Submission.  There, a group of submissives came together and formed what was called the Brat Pack, which Y/you would think would be a nightmare for the Dominants, but it was actually the exact opposite.  What I believe Sir Magnus mentioned about discussions on responsible bratting... that was kinda what the Brat Pack was for.  It was meant to be a representation to the Community of what ~actual bratting was, to help combat some of that stigma that Draya mentioned that comes from those who just want to be assholes in public and then hide behind the "brat" label.  It was a lovely group for the time it existed, and some of the most submissive people I've met were a part of it.  Which just went on to show that brat does not equal un-submissive.  Also, to avoid instilling any unnecessary fear in folks who are bratty/have brat tendencies, the  assertion that the closest thing to a brat in Leather are pups isn't necessarily true.  Like everything, each community and/or House has its own way of doing things.  For example, the Master and Mistress of the House I trained in in RL were quite appreciative of bratting, when the circumstance allowed.  They didn't train it into Their slaves or anything, but in the right context and time/place, They allowed it.  It's probably where I got my "time/place" awareness from, rather than just being a brat anywhere at any time. Contextual bratting, if Y/you will.  xD #

 

[16:54] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): you maybe there for a while Sir Johan... Imy ha lots of "kinks"

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol "contextual bratting"

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and omg "Solace of Submission"

 

[16:56] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I found that place my 3rd day in SL

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that was Bucephalus Beaumont wasn't it (spelling)

 

[16:56] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   shakes head.  Mikhail Borgin.

 

[16:56] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): More than 13 years ago

 

[16:56] Becky Koolhoven (Becky Koolhoven): ♥

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ah!

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it all washes together after 20 years!

 

[16:57] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): ^ facts

 

[16:57] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   nods.  The Communtiy sim some of us lived on still exists - it houses A Meeting Place/A Place to Meet now.  :)

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): a person being a jerk in public and hiding behind any label is no bueno

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some Dominants do that too

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): None here of course

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Imy

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok we have two more comments and we have to close

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aithne back to you please

 

[17:01] Aithne (Dryantillae Resident): I personally find to be truly happy we have to accept our nature and follow that nature but I am of the opinion that in daily life we all  constantly grow ..people call me sometimes a cookie cutter slave but personally I like being in that box...strict constraints suit me well ..to follow those after a bad at work or a bad day in life is challenging.. I do have a question again..if a bratty slave acts bratty in public...and their Owner gets a complaint...can that also add to the hhmm ''spicyness'' that a bratty slave can bring? I am speaking in general as I want  to learn

 

[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I am  going to table that question for a minute  as we are running late and I know that some people need to move on

 

[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so let's get Jason-Lenore's final comment, then anyone that wishes can stick around to answer

 

[17:02] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Thank you Vanni. More to what Johan spoke of....That whole "This is the way my Dom/Daddy likes me and you can't do anything about it." UGGGHHH Yeah I'm not your Dominant and you don't have to listen to me.....BUUUT I also do NOT consent to you playing with your brat kink with me. "Go brat over there and leave me alone.", has been my response to those that insist on being disrespectful like that. Again I don't mind cutting loose and all that but when I give tasks, commands, etc. I expect it done to a certain standard....how it gets done isn't exactly my concern....go ahead and get creative as long as the task is done right . #

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bratty behavior ain't your thing and that's fine :)

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Just like Aithne said that acting bratty ain't her thing

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and the Darks enjoy it

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as long as everyone is happy that is the key

 

[17:04] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): someone that is disrespectful is not a Brat, end of story,

 

[17:04]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Nods in agreement

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so subs in your house, Jason-Lenore, would understand to obey and not flit about

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is totally bueno!

 

[17:04] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): They can flit, as long as they do their tasks and aren't an annoyance

 

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[17:05] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): There is a time and a place for bratting.

 

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed

 

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): again communiction is key

 

[17:05] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I enjoy flitting about

 

[17:05] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   nods lots at Sir Magnus.

 

[17:05] мαяιѕѕα  (RougeLaroux Resident): even those of us who visit Masters home with permission of course, know where the lines are, and also the consequences of cross them.

 

[17:05] Aries Amore (Aries Amore): agree with Draya and a playful (bratty) submissive would NEVER want to bring disgrace or disrespect to her Dominate as that would be very painful to her

 

[17:05] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Time and place

 

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now if anyone wants to answer Aithne's question, feel free.  here it is again...".if a bratty slave acts bratty in public...and their Owner gets a complaint...can that also add to the hhmm ''spicyness'' that a bratty slave can bring? I am speaking in general as I want  to learn"

 

[17:06] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): It would be generally poor ettiquette in any BDSM community to brat to a D type you don't already have some relationship (and consent to)

 

[17:07] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Personally, I believe that question runs right into the third-party consent problem. That person that she's bratting at, forcing them to bring a complaint to their Dominant, likely didn't consent to being involved in that dynamic.

 

[17:07] Mal (Pwnography Resident): I think as long as the brat is not crossing a line and being bratty with somebody they do not belong to, it's not something to be concerned about, generally. Some people have bad days, some people do not like certain things. you can't control everybody in public scenarios. However if you do something that affects somebody else and they complain, it should be regarded.

 

[17:07] shae the pwincess muffinbutt (Shae Shadow): I would never embarrass Kat like that

 

[17:07] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I mean I guess I could see that in a blasphemous confession/punishment/atonement sort of dynamic......

 

[17:07] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): that would depend on the dynamic and the Dominant, some doms want to project power when out in public, so they want their subs on their best behaviour, others.. less so, there is a chance for anything in the D/s community, any combinations of things, its just finding the right fit for your needs and agreeing to a working dynamic,

 

[17:07] мαяιѕѕα  (RougeLaroux Resident):   looks out her nuns outfit for Master Jason

 

[17:08] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Do i need to put on my confessional?

 

[17:08] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): I can only answer for the dynamic I have with my Master, but I suppose the nature of the complaint would determine His feelings about it.  If I was truly being an asshole in public and He got a complaint, it would absolutely be a situation where a chat and discipline were necessary, because I did not represent Him well.  But if Someone is just up Their own ass and think They're allowed to have an opinion on something that isn't Their business?  Then He'll give a generic, "Thank you for letting me know" and we'll have a good chuckle about it and move on.

 

[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even a brat has some expectations.  if a Dom  says "what we do here is fine, in public I expect this kind of behavior" and the Brat pushes it in public, that is grounds for real punishment IMO

 

[17:08] Mal (Pwnography Resident): I agree.

 

[17:09] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): agreed, as i said before, a Brat will never disobey their dominant, thats not the game, doing so makes you a bad sub not a brat

 

[17:09] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Vanni! Why do these mentions of religious RP come up here so often?

 

[17:10] Cedric Harcourt (Cedric Harcourt): personally I think a respectful response would be for the brat to self correct as soon as she sees her actions are being percieved by another D as being disrespectful.  I would question her D if he didnt expect the same -  just my thought

 

[17:10] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): Like Miss Vanni's example about the coffee thing earlier that She thought I would make a snarky comment about turning her ~into coffee.  If She didn't hav a problem with it and She wasn't the one complaining?  No one else's opinion would really matter to my Master if They tried to complain, so long as I didn't interrupt the discussion and derail it.  But if Miss Vanni truly asked for coffee and I turned Her into coffee and she didn't like it and complained?  Discipline would ensue.  :)

 

[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Tann that used to come here to Xaara had a sub, Aoisle who was a total brat.  they enjoyed the dynamic in public to an extent.  But Aoisle also knew when to peel back because if she pushed things too far in public and Tann got a real complaint (rather than "your sub is really annoying" kind of generic stuff) they'd have a talk.

 

[17:11] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I remember them :)

 

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good folks :)

 

[17:11] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I usually ignore an obnoxious brat

 

[17:11] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): best way to shut them down

 

[17:12] Mal (Pwnography Resident): It's very easy to ignore people here.

 

[17:12] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): and some brats just hate that

 

[17:12] Mal (Pwnography Resident): Here being second life.

 

[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I regularly use "Block" to people who are real arseholes

 

[17:12] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   nods lots at Sir Mal.

 

[17:12] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): yeppers...me to

 

[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This was a great discussion!

 

[17:13] Mal (Pwnography Resident): I liked it. Thank you, Vanessa.

 

[17:13] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): block is my friend

 

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks all so much for your insights and thoughts

 

[17:13] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Excellent discussion. Thank you so much for this, Vanessa and everyone.

 

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in a couple weeks we'll get to more general discussion topics

 

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but "third party consent" is coming soon

 

[17:13] Kat Shadow (Kat Shadow): Thanks Vanessa, this was very thought provoking & fun as always