"Humiliation:" March 28, 2021

 

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: ok I think it is time to start up

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: This discussion will end our time on the S/M of BDSM

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: We talked a couple weeks ago about Sadism and what being a Sadist is all about

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: and last week was Masochism

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Those discussions are on the above blog page for anyone that missed them

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Today we come to a specific part of S/M play, Humiliation play

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Which is misunderstood by many

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Actually, more of us practice this as part of our lifestyle play than we think

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: When we think of "humiliation," we think of some crazed Top screaming at a bottom/sub, calling them names, worthless, and smearing body waste on them, or something.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Just because I did that last night doesn't make me a bad person

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: I mean

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: While I was praying.

[08:15] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: But there are very subtle forms of humiliation play as well, many that are quite everyday

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: By the way, this discussion is going to morph into a whole workshop on humiliation play, Dijana and I will be working on that together :)

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: So we are taking careful notes

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: What I would like to do before opening the floor to Y/you all is to talk about three kinds of humiliation

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: as I am a sociologist, everything has to be in some form of typology you see

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: The first is what can be called "Status Humiliation."

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: This is some kind of activity where the Bottom/Sub is moved down the hierarchy to be sure they, and everyone around knows, that the target is under the authority and rule of the Top/Dominant

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: For example

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Do any subs/bottoms here like to be leashed?

[08:18] flo: yes!

[08:18] Dijana384: nods nods

[08:18] Brianne hand shoots up!

[08:18] Goonie: yes

[08:18] Ƈαţ: yes

[08:18] Teddy tilts his head and yaps happily!

[08:18] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods

[08:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: yes!

[08:18] Daelenie McMillan: hell yes

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, so do I.  What we enjoy is having something done to us that humans do to a dog.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: That is a form of status humiliation

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: it doesn't do anything to our self worth

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: in fact if anything, it enhances it

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: But it makes damn sure that WE know who is Boss, and everyone around knows that.

[08:19] Sir Jason Oi: It's like "Look I belong to somebody"

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly Sir.

[08:20] RB Quinn: Status reinforcement... not degradation, though

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Another example could be "Walk three steps behind me, your eyes on my feet, watching where I go."

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Or as Iris has this in her profile, and I'm not outing her, how when she is leashed to Sir Zihm, she is not to speak to anyone

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: The second type of humiliation is Physical Humiliation

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: This is when the sub is turned into some kind of "object"

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: such as an ottoman, a couch

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: a chair

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: a lamp

[08:21] flo: or a foot stool

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: an animal

[08:21] Ƈαţ is a practiced ice cream dish

[08:22] Sir Jason Oi: Breakfast table

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: the idea is objectification when an "object" the sub gets off on not being seen as human, but as what they are "portraying"

[08:22] Sir Jason Oi: Living art

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: A Domme in my RL community had her girl be a lamp at a party

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: it was kind of fun heh heh

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: The third kind of humiliation one is the one where treading carefully is very important

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Emotional Humiliation

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: This is where the Top/Dominant does use some kind of name calling, or humiliating acts, that are *****NEGOTIATED***** with the sub

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: For example

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: In a scene where I am a bottom, I love being called "bitch" or "whore"

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: In a scene

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: You do that to me outside a scene, you get to meet my Sicilian side which ain't pretty

[08:25] RB Quinn: grins

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Some people really *need* this kind of verbal attack in order to get off in a scene

[08:25] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: And as long as it's negotiated and carefully done, it's fine

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: but I think we can all see the danger here

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Done minus careful negotiation, it's as dangerous as taking a paddle and just wailing on a person with it minus negotiation

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: its' abuse, pure and simple

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Some people are really puzzled by it, some love it.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: It's a personal thing

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: As long as we are careful, it can be a fine thing in the toolbox

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: so with all this said, and thank Y/you for your patience, let's go to Y/you.  do you like this kind of play?  Do Y/you avoid it?

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: What aspects of humiliation play are fun or a turn off?

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Dae, you get to start us off today!

[08:29] Daelenie McMillan: Humiliation Play is a big subject, not just due to popularity nut because it covers so many different ways people feel the humiliation. Not everyone is into the same thing and some things are a total deal breaker. For me it's any bathroom play. I will not do it, it sicks me out and I will stop responding.

  There is a fine line between Humiliation play and abuse, sometimes it gets hard to tell the difference especially for those of us that get a turn on from the play. I believe it is one of the most dangerous types of plays because the line is so sharp one can easily cross it even without meaning to. as Vanni has said, communication is key here to avoid it.

 People think just because I like being called naughty names during the act or I like to be told to disrobe in (Appropriate settings and venues) it must mean it's ok to do it outside the scene. That would be.. incorrect. The caveat there is of course how the Dominant and Submissive have communicated and have agreed on their interactions.  #

[08:30] KannaLily is online.[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Correct, Dae!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: This kind of play has to be seen as potentially dangerous as impact play

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: One wrong "word" or "act" and it goes sideways fast, and can have just as lasting effects

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli pulls on Dae's pony tail playfully a bit and kisses her cheek

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Great first comment!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:32] ORIOƝ: which is why it's negotiated beforehand, if it's not then yeah it's leading to disaster

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed Sir

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's go to Master RB, please!

[08:32] RB Quinn: You can guess from my interjections (I apologize), I have a hard time with at least some aspects of humiliation.  I fear it so often is abused or used when it is only the dominant who wishes and pushes it.  Thank you, Vanni, for your careful explanation of how it can properly be a part of a healthy D/s relationship.  *smiles*    #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: It certainly can be.  May I ask a question please, Master RB?

[08:33] RB Quinn: Oh...  yes??

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Yesterday You brought Elli to the service station party nude..she's come nude or been tied at least once before that I remember

[08:34] RB Quinn nods, worried where this is going

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: She enjoys being brought nude to a place where everyone will be clothed, yes?

[08:34] RB Quinn: She does, on occasion

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Right, so that's a form of humiliation play with her...that thrill of knowing she will be sort of a spectacle around people.

[08:35] RB Quinn: But when she does, it makes me so damn proud of her.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: And You do it safe, sane and with completely consent

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: So it's healthy and fun

[08:35] RB Quinn nods.... Yes, Vanni.. thank you :)

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Now if you *forced* her to do it against her will, that would be a problem.  But it's great how it works :)

[08:36] Taree: Besides, Elli is cute Nakkies

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Hell yes!

[08:36] RB Quinn: smiles.... laughs and tickles his Taree

[08:36] ʀᴀᴠєɴ ɢöʀᴍѕѕöɴ: thank you for the insight Vanni

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I would EVER want to be cuffed, gagged and brought somewhere on a leash naked.  Goddess NO!

[08:36] flo: laughs

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli passes my time schedule around

[08:36] Ƈαţ: lol

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master RB for Your comment and being a great Role Model for us Xaarians! ♥

[08:37] RB Quinn blushes... "Thank YOU, Vanni"

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sir Jason please!

[08:37] Sir Jason Oi: I do enjoy humiliation play in all three of the forms you mentioned, the thing with emotional or verbal humiliation especially is that you need to get to the core of what causes the submissive shame or embarrassment.

One way in which I like to do a little verbal humiliation play is some verbal banter and lite gaslighting, with my girl.

Also with emotional humiliation much more importantly over the others is proper Aftercare. You really have to build up your bottoms emotional well-being and self-esteem after this type of scene, let them know that you still care about them, that you don't really find them to be worthless etc. #

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, 100% correct Sir!

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: For example, Mindfucking is really fun...in a scene

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Out of a scene that's very abusive

[08:39] ORIOƝ: absolutely vanni

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: So one has to let the sub know that the mindfuck was then, this is now

[08:39] Sir Jason Oi: Yes indeed

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir for your insightful comment!

[08:40] Sir Jason Oi: My pleasure

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Teddy you are up please!

[08:40] Teddy: i like doing humiliating things and get praise for it. cause am a puppy and puppies don't gotta worry bout things being humiliating for people. But not people calling me horrible things or thinking I’m something bad.i was with a d/s family.an i was the puppy.and there were slaves. there was a NC with rules they didn’t give until 2 month later. it said that puppies was lowest of everyone.an could be treated worthless. less than a human. f'k by anyone anytime no choice cause they nothing. it was like status thing you said? an i didn’t like.so i said no and not there anymore. I like being lowest status. lowest rank. knowing all humans in charge. But not being treated badly or thought of like as worthless. im a nice puppy. that made me feel horrible :( it didn’t feel humiliated.it felt  degrading.an it hurt bad. I got upset felt like people thought I’m a disgusting thing being a puppy :( i think its super important that tell sub about all rules and things before. Not later. not forgetting. cause its not nice an can hurt feelings

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, that was abusive status humiliation mixed in with emotional damage

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: You were right to get out of there as it wasn't negotiated with you beforehand

[08:42] Daelenie McMillan: inside every puppy is a wolf. Never forget that.

[08:42] ORIOƝ: glad you got out of that teddy

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: btw Teddy, last year the weekend before our club closed for COVID reasons, there was a Dom guy training his fetish girl puppy, she was ultra cute!

[08:42] Ŀuzĭ: ((ops sorry love the chat but has been summoned. thanks for the invite apologies

[08:42] Sir Jason Oi: C @ Teddy

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead with Your comment to Teddy please, Sir

[08:43] Teddy: yay cute puppy!

[08:43] Sir Jason Oi: I am glad you got out of there quickly.

Degradation is a form of emotional humiliation play, however.

[08:44] Sir Jason Oi: But it has to be play.#

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, it can be Sir.  And some subs love it.  But there are people with emotional issues that aren't really "playing" but getting even further damaged by what the Top/Dominant might see as "play."  It's a real fine line as Dae said.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: So it takes real high levels of communication to be sure what's happening is healthy

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Or the Top/Dominant ends up being unwittingly abused as they pile what they thing is "fun" on someone that is really in an emotional bad spot

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: I've seen this a few times

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Unhealthy people that need help, not a scene. ":/

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: And then the Dom/me is like "I didn't want to hurt them!" Because they didn't!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: anyway enough of my soapbox

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you both!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Candice you are up please!

[08:47] Candice Svenska: thank you Vanni :) I'm the same as most i think, call my anything in a scene, but yes random and out side theres a time and place and mood depends to, otherwise its going to get disliked, also triggers and health need considering too :) #

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank you! :)

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's go to Cat please!

[08:48] Ƈαţ: Thanks Vanni!  I was thinking that if you had asked me before this talk if i was into humiliation I'd have said No.  But, the fact is I love the leash, I think its hot to be called a slut in bed, I've had D's put the most horrid, disgusting stuff in my collar float text and thought it hilarious, etc... To me, humiliation has always meant something that genuinely makes me feel bad about myself, demeans and undermines my self-esteem.  I know myself well enough to know that I dont have alot to spare, thats a hard limit for me. And it's MY responsibility to know that.  lol  So, like with anything knowing each others definition of things, and negotiating carefully is key. And I guess, all said and done, I do like some kinds of humiliation.  :)

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Like anything, this is a spectrum, not a single "thing"

[08:49] Ƈαţ: can  i just add

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: sure

[08:49] Dijana384: I'm the same Cat!

[08:50] Ƈαţ: to clarify, Its important that i know my limitations around that and be honest with myself.

[08:50] Ƈαţ: before i can agree, or not, to anything

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: That's 100% correct

[08:51] ORIOƝ: well said cat

[08:51] Ƈαţ: :)

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Humiliation play, done right, can even be freeing.  Done with an experienced Dominant and carefully, it can make us face things we really want to avoid about ourselves in a fairly safe way.  That's all predicated on LOTS of communication with one's Dom/me.

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: For example...

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: A dom guy in my RL community got a girl he was working with to really understand she LIKES giving blow jobs by making her admit it

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Rather than some thing she *thought* was sick.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: it was rather interesting to have her go around the club saying "Hi, my name is _____ and I really like oral sex, Master ____ wanted you to know."

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Of course, he negotiated that with her and told us what was going to happen

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Sultry you are up please

[08:54] -ღ Sultry ღ-: This is a sensitive area due to my RL abuse.  I have found that I agree with Vanni in that I enjoy being called the more naughtier/nastier names during play, however, outside of that you would also see the feisty and spicy Mexican side of me show her claws in an instant.  I think the only issue I have would be when the humiliation is done purely for a Dominant's ego, simply to push his/her dominance with no regard for the feelings of the submissive without consent, of course. I am very submissive but when I feel disrespected in anyway my defenses will flare up immediately.  Oh, and I love being leashed and put on display! *grins*#

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: The key phrase you used Sultry was "without consent"

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Minus consent, that's abuse, pure and simple.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, just as there are submissives that should avoid humiliation play, there are Dominants that should as well

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: They're in it for the wrong reasons

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: And it's not that hard to spot them, they get to abuse pretty quickly

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Teddy you had a comment to me?

[08:57] Teddy: yus

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: I saw that just as I was calling on Sultry

[08:57] Teddy: o.o the freeing thing about blowjob you said. so.i had put this head harness with dildo on that move in an out.blowjob trainer thing. on me. an training for bone sucking >.< an wore it all over SL.with tag on bone sucking trainee. had to admit i loved bones to his friends. an it was humiliating.but it was freeing.like said.an fun. an loved it. cause i was praised loadsan they loved it. but if i wasnt scene. an i wasnt puppy. noway i could ever do it.way too shy o.o XD lol ##

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: There you go!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: After that girl came to us and said she liked giving head, we all said "We love that about you and you are such a good, wonderful girl"

[08:58] Brianne: awwwww

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: As what she needed was an affirmation that she was totally normal and wonderful

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: so I see that in what you just said :")

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's go to Sir Sam please!

[08:59] Sam Cabot: When someone is into humiliation, triggers become a VERY important factor in negotiations. They may enjoy every demeaning word (during the scene of course), but one word might make them snap out of it. And like some  subs have said, what is arousing in a scene can earn a trip to the ER when said outside of the scene. Sometimes you have to go with the "treat her like a princess, fuck her like a slut" approach. The motivation for humiliation play should be mutual enjoyment or growth, not one person's ego needing a boost.

Humiliation play does not always work out the way we expect it, so both parties have to be prepared to stop the scene in an instant and provide aftercare. It is important to remind the s type their true value, and keep following up to show they are valuable to the dominant. Call me weird (and I'll wear it as a badge of honor), but I prefer providing "on going care" as opposed to aftercare. #

[09:00] Brianne nods in enthusiastic agreement

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli cheers!!! \o/

[09:00] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods and smiles up to Sir Sam

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: So well said, Sir Sam!! ♥

[09:01] Sir Jason Oi: Yes Sam!

[09:01] Sir Jason Oi: I love the "ongoing care"

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed 100%, thank You for that amazing comment!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason You are up again please

[09:02] Sir Jason Oi: Sometimes being triggered and getting catharsis is the goal, but again that is something to be discussed and negotiated beforehand and you really have to know your bottom very well to even attempt this sort of thing because you need to really understand what issues you're collectively going to be working through and as always Aftercare.#

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, absolutely Sir.  That Dom in my community had been working with that girl for quite a while before they got to the point of her making that circle at the club

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: It wasn't like "Ok, thanks for letting me know, let's humiliate you." lol

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Vivian you had said "C" some time before so I moved you up

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: please go ahead then we'll get to Goonie next

[09:04]  ღ Vivian Song  ღ: Looks up and puts my hand up to count, yes, it was 2 days ago. someone spoke to me and I am always nice and said hi, Sir hope you are enjoying Xaara, there is so much to enjoy here. And he responded. "Well, your a smart little cunt, aren't you?" I honestly almost kicked and spit but then I realized that might be something expected here. I just wondered........I stopped the conversation

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: That was completely inappropriate

[09:04] Sir Jason Oi: O.O

[09:04]  ღ Vivian Song  ღ: nods, and looks down

[09:05] RB Quinn: That is NOT a 'thing' here!!

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead flo

[09:06] flo: that is absolutely NOT a thing here, but I do know there are sims out there, this type of addressing is encouraged, like for example, misogyny RP places in SL, but if you go there you know that before hand

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Yeah we probably have to take into account that he may have come from elsewhere, Flo

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: But that word is striking, like a slap

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: One should know not to use it lightly

[09:07] Dijana384: how do you respond to something like that besides....no response?

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: in a place where it's not *obvious* it's ok

[09:07] Sir Jason Oi: I use it more for men than women just sayin

[09:08] Ƈαţ: iprob would have some something smartass like 'i try' and walked away lol

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Well I would have said "Sir, that's not a word that can be used here minus negotiation with the particular sub."

[09:08] Sir Jason Oi: Inform them that you don't consent to being treated that way

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: and if he said it again I'd have told him to fuck off and left

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: But that's Vanni

[09:08] Dijana384: nods and laughs

[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods emphatically to Vanni

[09:08] RB Quinn: cheers for Vanni

[09:08] Daelenie McMillan: "we're sorry, that word may be appropriate when speaking to your troglodyte mother but it is not appropriate for adult conversations in an adult sim. Please go back to pre school and learn "Manners." Thank you and have a nice day."

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway you are safe here, Vivian

[09:09]  ღ Vivian Song  ღ: This is my home. I won't leave. I said, "wow, rude!" that was it.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: thank you for bringing that to our attention though

[09:09] Candice Svenska: consent is a big umbrella of protection here in Xaara

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ooops...Goonie go ahead please

[09:09] Goonie: The default position for a decent human being is to be kind to others, so how do we as subs reassure a dominant who is accustomed to being nice to people that being nasty to us is actually being nice because we love it?

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Time, discussion and communication

[09:10] Sir Jason Oi: What Vanni said

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: trying small things first and moving up

[09:10] Sir Jason Oi: reassuring them that you enjoy it

[09:10] Goonie listens appreciatively to the comments.

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: It's like learning how to be a top in impact play

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: A first time Top is probably not going to satisfy a heavy bottom

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: so they have to work up to the point they can do that

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: and that's fine really, you learn as you go along

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: so I'd say the same thing Goonie, it's working together :)

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for that insight!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: We'll go to Taree please

[09:12] Taree: Vanni, I love these discussions.  For all that my RL has kept me off line, I have put my foot down and reserved Sunday mornings for you. 

> This talk has started a negotiation with my Master.  I find the idea of being gifted, or publicly displayed exciting, and scary.  Is that humiliation?  I never thought of it that way.  But yes, I think it is.  To be offered to another man for service shows that I am his slave, in his hands.  It feels more  like affirmation than humiliation.  

 ((A warrior in Treve used to call me 'cunt'.  I was a free woman!  So I started calling him 'dickless'.  He was livid!!!  Oh I loved it.  He couldn't touch me because of who my guardian was.  I can be such a brat.)) #

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: lolol!

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Nice!

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: and yes, that's absolutely a form of humiliation play

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: See, humiliation is really putting oneself in a real vulnerable position

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Where one has to be 100% dependent on their Dominant to protect them and do what's right

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: So you get to "get off" with being an object, or being exposed, or what not, and be safe

[09:14] Daelenie McMillan: it can be a lot of fun too Taree. As long as you both know the person your gifted to.

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: It's a real kink

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Any other comments on our topic today?

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Next week, no Klatch, it's Easter and I'm going to NOT resurrect early

[09:17] RB Quinn: Brilliantly done, as always, Vanni

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: So back in two weeks for a discussion on Dominance

[09:17] Charlie CC Cooper is online.

[09:17]  ღ Vivian Song  ღ: great talk

[09:17] Sir Jason Oi: Thank you Vanni and I hope everyone learned something

[09:17] -ღ Sultry ღ-: Thank you, Vanni!  Again, another wonderful and enlightening discussion!

[09:17] Daelenie McMillan: hugs Vanni and kisses her cheek

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: :) ♥

[09:17] Daelenie McMillan: Have a wonderfilled day E/everyone :)

[09:18] Sam Cabot: Vanni, thanks for one more wonderful discussion. These are definitely worth getting up early on a Sunday. Thanks also to everyone for sharing their thoughts.

"Masochism": March 21, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: I have updated the page with all the discussions we have had since Jan 3

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: And I am also working on an archive of past discussions

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: I have some exposition, but Master Laz always gets priority.  Please go ahead when ready, Master.

[08:12] Laz: Vanni, would you please create a notecard about the discussion including the blog url to give out in the poster outside?

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Master!

[08:12] Laz: thank you

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli notes that in the big file of stuff to do

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: ok so I have some exposition, as is my wont, before we move forward

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism is defined by Mirriam-Webster as "the derivation of sexual gratification from being subjected to physical pain or humiliation by oneself or another person. Pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering"

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: A bit of history:  The term "masochism" was coined by Austrian psychologist Richard von Krafft-Ebing, He took the term from a literary acquaintance of his, Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, an Austrian writer of utopic and more lurid essays, with Krafft-Ebing claiming that Sacher-Masoch often made use of what he termed the "perversion" of masochism in his writing, so he used Sacher-Masoch's name to create the term "masochism."

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: As you might imagine, Sacher-Masoch was less then enthused about this, but the term stuck.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism in the BDSM variety has to be differentiated from sexual masochism disorder, which is a psychiatric problem that refers to “recurrent and intense sexual arousal from the act of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer, as manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors” ONLY if these urges are causing some kind of functional impairment in social, occupational or other areas of one's life.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism is not a strange desire for pain in all places and all times (were it, it would fit into the definition of sexual masochism disorder.) A masochist, for example, doesn't like a toothache or ask an oral surgeon to do dental surgery minus anesthesia so they can feel pain. They don't go around banging their heads into walls to feel some kind of dangerous "head rush." The pain is a kink, not a mental disorder.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Further, masochists are not dysfunctional in terms of their day to day life. They don't expect others to provide pain, or look for a way to get someone to humiliate them anywhere and everywhere.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism is not a single thing -- it is a continuum, and what one masochist might like, another might find highly distasteful for themselves....or, potentially, nowhere near what they need to feel that "kick" that comes with some form of masochism. Masochism is an umbrella term, not one thing.  Some masochists simply like humiliation, while others like some pretty intense applications of pain.  Everyone is different.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: One last thing, and then we will take comments and questions.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: I would like to keep discussion of *humiliation* to next week please, and stick this week to the physical aspects of masochism.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: As humiliation really needs a whole period to itself.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: And I am working on a new in depth workshop along with Dijana on it, so I'd like to give it its own day so we can work off those notes.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli looks at the list of things to do, back at Master Laz, and grins.

[08:18] Laz: :-)

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: So with that, let's go!  What do Y/you think about masochism?  Are you a masochist?  Are you a sadist that likes masochists?  What's the kink here?

[08:20] Laz: C

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Master Laz, we will start with You please!

[08:20] Laz: Yes, I am a sadist. Yes, I like masochists, a lot...

[08:21] Laz: It is certainly a kink in me and I am amazed and pleased that masochist exist in balance...

[08:22] Laz: As a ethical sadist, only a masochist can really soothe that itch. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Oooo....someone should write that book, Master, "The Ethical Sadist."

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli doesn't need my list growing though...

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You for that comment, Master Laz!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Sir Jason please!

[08:23] Sir Jason Oi: I personally love masochists as they crave the sadism that I love to give. The joy/terror on their faces as I dole out the pain is simply exquisite. #

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: And would You say, Sir, that the rush of getting that person into subspace at Your hands is like stepping back and admiring a work of art that's been finished? *grins*

[08:24] Sir Jason Oi: Oh yes indeed

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli grins bigger

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You for that comment, Sir!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Master Ballard who has a question...You have the floor, Master Ballard!

[08:25] Ballard: I am disappointed that my two masochists are absent this morning.  I will ask about the desire to mirror a scene. I know many people will mirror in order to get the stimulation.  Without mirroring, can a masochist still get gratification?  Can one still mentally get the rush?  Or is the RL physical side an absolute must?  This is about SL vs RL, and the rush being felt.  Just a general question.#

[08:26] Ballard: ((Also, I am not a sadist.  Any submissive saying otherwise I will give them a sound thrashing to prove it!))

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: If anyone would like to answer Master Ballard's question, please go ahead, no C is necessary

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: We'd especially like to hear from any S-Type that likes scenes here in SL that doll out pain

[08:28] Ballard: One of my girls will administer swats to herself RL, as I do them to her min SL

[08:28] Ballard: She will 'mirror' what is done in SL, so she can feel it

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli always thinks of that scene in "Secretary" where Lee is hitting herself with the hairbrush and it's just not the same....

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: But when done in conjunction with one's Top/Dominant, it can work quite well!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Does anyone else have a reply or a comment on Master Ballard's question about SL only S/M play?

[08:30] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: As I said last week, I'm not a sadist but I love flogging and spanking others. My enjoyment in inflicting pain comes from empathy instead of sadism. Doing unto others what I love having done to me.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: what about in SL, CC?

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: Do it think it works here "only" as it would in First Life?

[08:31] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Same, impact play in sl has limited appeal to me because it hard to physically flog them

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: but you just swing...and watch red appear...and swing more...and hear a moan..and...*fans myself* excuse me

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Ahem.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Master Laz, do you have a comment related to Master Ballard's question?

[08:32] Laz: I really enjoy it when the sub mirrors where I can hear it. The sound of the thwack and the umphs and whimpers. So mirroring with sound is very effective I think for S/M. Even though they are delivering it themselves, I am able to direct the intensity by sound and helps to give the masochist some of the proper effect. I hope it does anyway. It would be nice to hear from m types about that. #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: I agree, Master, that if a scene will include mirroring, voice/sound really helps it, if that's the thing both (or more) are into.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: To answer Your question from my experience, Master Ballard, I think that play strictly in SL, with no mirroring, is having a similar but different effect than with.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: I'm of the mind that what is normally getting a sub into subspace is endorphins, which come from the play, and that's what gets the sub to really want to be beat on or however it works for them.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Like I mentioned my student last week who had to go get beat at the club to "calm down and focus" so she could study.

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway what goes on here can certainly create a neurotransmitter response, but I think it is different than what one experiences in a club getting physically hit on.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: I actually talked to my neuroscience colleague, as she knows I'm a kinkster (it's nice to be open...and tenured!)

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: And she didn't think that the effect would be the same, but there would be something that would indeed happen as the brain process the scene.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: So that's a long winded way to say, yes, it can work very well if it just stays in SL, but it's different.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Aspen please

[08:39] Skye Cloud is offline.

[08:39] Peaches Svenska: q

[08:39] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni,

I know that I have a little of masochist that was brought out last week when I heard Master Ballard explanations. I love little pain and turn it into pleasure. The pain part I  could suffer for my Master and then that makes me a masochist. I do also think no matter what kind of Dom you are everyone has that little Sidist in them. Master Laz is right about being balance. So with me I guess I am some what a masochist that does crave that pain to pleasure and see that i meet my Master's  needs. It is like being spanked or flogged to get that pain out and relax with it.  

C @ Master Ballard

I do understand giving myself spanks in real also at Masters pleasure. I also spank my breast and pull my nipples as Master writes what he wants from me to feel at the time.

 I feel everything being done to me ON Line as I truly feel in Real. I do mirror when I am with a Master in SL. As he hears me moaning and hearing the swats when I give them to myself. I do love voice for you can hear what Master is

[08:39] Aspen Diamond:  thinking and doing to my body.  Vanni I wish I had that Master to spank or flog me to calm down and focus.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli grins at Aspen  "All well said!"

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Tann, You are up please!

[08:41] Tann Stormhaven: I am not fully awake but this is what worked it's way into my brain from this discussion.

She loved in a dark way, her twisted soul a thorn bush of experience and emotion. To feel that love returned she would follow strange winding paths in the underbrush of her subconscious, often becoming lost. It was during these times that she sought some form of guidance, to find that only pain set her free and allowed her peace from the ever turbulent existence. Being gnashed and torn by the thorns granted her freedom, release, a reason. Those things were beyond simple physical sensation and carried her into a world of harmony. Yet always the lashes would end, the fire would cease to burn and once again she would be left to wander lost in a labyrinthine landscape of confusion and hope that perhaps she would find the answer to the riddle of herself, if even only for a moment, again.

In response to Lord Ballard: I believe that there are two components to masochism, the "idea" of pain and the "reality" of pain. IF

[08:41] Tann Stormhaven:  someone is a mental masochist the idea of pain may be far more enticing than the reality of pain. I also believe this can occur conversely. Mirroring is something that works for some but not for others. I think that one needs to keep in mind that SL and RL are two very different things and trying to make SL "work like RL" can lead to problems for  number of reasons that someone more alert might be able to explain better than I can at the moment.#

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli loved that piece of prose, "Did You write that Miss?"

[08:42] Tann Stormhaven: Yes

[08:42] Tann Stormhaven: just now

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli nominates Miss Tann for some major award in writing

[08:43] Brianne applause

[08:43] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods

[08:43] Tann Stormhaven smiles "thank you."

[08:43] Lisa Summerland: That was deeply lovely Tann, thank you

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: As for Your second comment, Miss, 100% agreed, any mirroring needs to be thought on and negotiated

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: And it will work for some better than others.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Plus there are issues of privacy that need to be taken into consideration.  Can the bottom/sub do that?

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Let's see, we are back to Master Ballard

[08:44] Ballard: Tann, thank you for that.

[08:44] Tann Stormhaven: My pleasure Ballard

[08:46] Ballard: I did

[08:46] Ballard: I love this topic.  CC your comment was a great perspective.  By giving pain you feel a service gratification.  I tend to ask questions more than try to deliver wisdom on such a topic. 

For myself, the bondage and control are essential aspects of the scene.  To have a woman bound, helpless, and at my mercy, then strip, flog, and ultimately take her body for my pleasure, is so freaking hot!  The pain is only one part of the whole.  The  infliction of pain is a statement of my power over her.  After all, if I can bind her and whip her then she is truly at my mercy.

Does a masochist see it that way?  Is the control surrender and helpless feeling a key requirement?  I can  only imagine this is highly  individual.  #

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli looks around to see a lot of squirming and wonders if ants have invaded again.....makes a note to call the exterminator.

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: I think, Master Ballard, that each bottom/sub comes to masochism differently.  But at the heart is the giving over of control.

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: The bottom knows that the Top *could* inflict some real serious damage on them.  But the handing over of trust is key, and the physical sensation rides on that.

[08:49] Brianne wonders if rope and riding crop is on Svenska family crest

[08:50] Ballard: It damn well ought to be

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I mean, I bet my fellow S-Types here that have ever done RL play know that when one is bound, that feeling that wells up from deep in the stomach, saying "This person could seriously beat the crap out of me and send me to the hospital" is real...and that's the thrill of it...the handing of that control in a moment of trust.

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: You mentally *know* they're not going to

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: but damn....the feeling is so intense

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I've ever had that happen of course, I'm a good girl.

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: ahem

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Ballard!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason do You have a comment?

[08:51] Sir Jason Oi: I do

[08:51] Sir Jason Oi: I can't imagine that play in SL could possibly have the same effect as RL play does when talking about the physical play (speaking from someone that has primarily played in RL over the last 29 years), mental and emotional are totally different and can be just as rewarding done in SL or RL, although a very active imagination can create close to the same effects chemically in the brain (I think). Mirroring can be fun when adding voice but cam is even more intense where you can see them wince in pain under the direction you give. To what Tann said yes you have to take safety into account when playing long distance, being responsible in your play is of utmost importance and not doing things that will potentially cause undue harm like edge play. #

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli cheers!  \o/

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: All so well said, Sir!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: This will be very helpful on the webpage as Y/you are all coming up with very useful, good material.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: and 100% agreement on that Sir.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli writes that down in notes for "The Ethical Sadist..."

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir...Peaches, you have a question please.

[08:54] Peaches Svenska: I struggle, here in Xaara, with feelings of inadequacy because I am so NOT a masochist. My greatest disappointment is to the Master's in my life that love giving a good lashing..and of course, I struggle because I know how much Master Laz loves the masochist. In SL, I am unable to 'react' via emoting, to things I have not experienced in RL..I suppose, if I were an actress, I could indeed..separating it compartmentally in my mind, but this is a lifestyle sim so I try to be absolutely as real as possible. I was viciously beaten by my mother when I was a child so the only experience I have to draw on is my history..I run from pain. I'm a lover not a fighter. I wish I could enjoy it for the sake of those Master's I admire here and desire to please..but in this area, I lack sorely. Do you, Vanni, think I am repulsed due to my childhood?#

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, first of all, you are NOT any kind of failure, Peaches.

[08:55] Tann Stormhaven: ^

[08:55] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods to Peaches

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: You are a smart, wonderful woman who brings joy to your Master and all of us.

[08:55] Ballard: I have never felt Peaches to be in ANY way less because she is not into pain.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed 100% Master Ballard!

[08:55] Becky Summerland: Peaches, you have so many other aspects to yourself to offer, don,t put yourself down, please, you are a gem ♥ ((sorry for speaking out of turn, it had to come out))

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Peaches, remember, everyone is different.  there are lots of people who are not masochistic at all, and they are fantastic submissives in many different areas.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: So be a joy in who YOU are.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: and finally, yes past trauma can affect our lives today in many ways.

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Had I gone to therapy for a few years to overcome past hurt my mom did to me emotionally, I would be a very different person

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: and prob not safe for BDSM play.

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: ♥ you Peaches! :)

[08:57] Becky Summerland: I love you as you are ma chérie ♥

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason You have a comment for Peaches, go ahead please.

[08:57] -ღ Sultry ღ-: Peaches ♥

[08:57] Sir Jason Oi: Submission does not have to equal masochism submission is submission to surrender yourself to the will and authority of another individual or group. Masochism is a love of pain and is not synonymous with submission. #

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: 100% spot on Sir!

[08:57] Tann Stormhaven: ^

[08:58] Becky Summerland: ♥

[08:58] Lisa Summerland: Yes

[08:58] Aspen Diamond: I like that sir Jason

[08:58] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell nods

[08:58] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods in agreement to Sir Jason

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli blows Peaches a big kiss

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for that Peaches.

[08:59] Becky Summerland: C@ Peaches

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Especially for your willingness to be vulnerable and let us support you.  What a great community!

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Miss Becky, please, then we will move on

[09:00] Becky Summerland: the goals we set for ourselves very often define how we perceive ourselves, look at the stories of Dave Mustaine and Pete Best... and if you wish, I can resume them for you in IM later ♥ Peaches, stand proud for who you are, not who the others are... you add value to Xaara and for that, I care and value you ♥

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: \o/

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You Miss Becky!

[09:00] Peaches Svenska wiped away the tears and tried hard to absorb each persons assurances. "thank you all"

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli smiles

[09:01] Becky Summerland: ♥

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: This is why I'd never leave Xaara

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: We are *real* here

[09:01] Lisa Summerland: indeed

[09:01] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Nods to Miss Becky, (love the sound of that!)

[09:01] -ღ Sultry ღ- wipes a tear away as she feels as Peaches does

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli wipes my own tear away too

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Master Laz, You have a question please?

[09:01] Laz: First in response to Peaches. Please be aware, that cubbie is also very much not a masochist, and I love her very much.. - Vanni, from researching the definition, can you answer this? Is a submissive who endures pain purely for the sake of pleasing their dominant a masochist. Also is a submissive who seeks catharsis through pain also a masochist? #

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: For #1, Master, I would say no, and that's my opinion on the matter.  I think a person that does anything simply for the sake of a person, gaining no enjoyment from that *act* is more enjoying the fact they are *serving* their Dominant.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: So if I had a Master or Mistress who wanted to whip me, and I am not into being whipped, but I do it for *them*, I'm serving, but I'm getting nothing for myself in that.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: For #2, Master, I would say "sort of."  There is a kind of masochism known as "religious masochism" with people like St. Theresa of Avila who was known to beat herself to nearly passing out to atone for sin.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: But she wasn't enjoying the pain (at least as she wrote it), but the fact she was atoning for sin, giving her body to Christ, so to speak.

[09:05] Sir Jason Oi: I would simply suggest trusted play partners for things that your partner(s) are not into.

[09:06] Lisa Summerland: yes an excellent recommendation

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Christians believe that Christ died for sins, but I don't think they believe he was "enjoying" the whole thing...he was doing the will of his Father.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: So I hope that answers the questions, Master?

[09:06] Laz: I wonder if others agree?

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Any other comments on Master Laz's questions?

[09:07] Lisa Summerland: I agree with Vanni's last statement

[09:07] Becky Summerland: it makes sense to me, even if I am right now unable to expand on it, it certainly is giving me something to ponder in my meditations

[09:07] Laz: :-)

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Laz!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: ok we have a few more comments so we'll move on

[09:08] Sir Jason Oi: Catharsis is a need and the act of getting there is what is needed for the end result

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up again please.

[09:08] Aspen Diamond: Thank you

Yes real pain giving by a Dom in a dungeon is real. I have had knives done on me also for a Dom. The pain is real. It does so much to you for that release deepening on that Dom and you and your trust between you two. By talking and negotiations he would know how far to push you in real to really feel that pain.

To Master Ballard

I do have to be tied up and have that Dom have the essential aspect of the scene. Being at the Dom mercy and strip of everything and not hiding with being very opened. Master Ballard it is also the sub looking at Master and his face in pleasure. Yes you are right it is very hot also for the sub.

Vanni? You are right with the feeling deep into your stomach of how this Dom would hurt you and like you stated it is the thrill of knowing that he has you in his hands and can do what ever to your body. 

It still comes down to trust. There are good masochism around and you just have to find the Real ones and not the Fake ones.

to Master Laz about Christ

What ever you believe

[09:08] Aspen Diamond:  in how you look at the trinity. He did have his father to answer too. 

A little pain to me is pleasure. I am learning to be me. With all of the help of this wonderful community here at Xaara I am so happy being a part of it. Thank you to all of you.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Great comments there Aspen!  You give this a lot of thought and we appreciate that! :)

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Well said!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up with your CComment!

[09:10] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Maybe we should mention the addictive nature of masochism when it's not kept in check. As I've mentioned here before, I'm helping a friend write her memoir of growing up in a family of sex workers. We have discussed why it is that she seeks more and more extremes. What used to get  her off before doesn't work anymore so that she seeks more extremes to the point that she seriously feels she has not limits and could be dead tomorrow from her addiction.

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Right, that's Masochistic Personality Disorder, which is not BDSM Masochism.  You know that, CC, but I want that to be clear in the minds of A/all.

[09:11] Laz: Thanks for pointing that out, Vanni

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli beams at Master Laz

[09:13] Becky Summerland: addiction is always a possibility, I do have an addiction to pain, and my tattoo artist knows it... we've talked about it and over the years, we became good friends, it why, sometimes, I'll visit her, and we'll more concentrate on talking than 'drawing'... and I kinda forgot my point, but, I'm sure it had to do with communications and being aware of our partners in 'play' ;) #

[09:13] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: yes and I make that distinction in the book

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli grins at Miss Becky "Thank You!"

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And thank you CC, it's always important to remember the clinical aspects of what we do.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Well said

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard You are up again please!

[09:14] Ballard: .

To state the well known, the four horsemen of BDSM are often paired as:

BD - Bondage and Disciple.  This is where Peaches and I land together.  She enjoys my control, and being regimented.  We have rituals and rules.  I tell her how to dress and wear her hair.

SM - Sadism and Masochism.  This is a different part of the cube.  I am able to enjoy this as well, but still as a part of my kinky whole.

All are integrated, but each has its own place and part to play in the  life.  No one thing is superior, stronger, or better.  The key is kink matching for couples or play partners, and an open mind to learn and grow.  Be honest with yourself about yourself, and it all really does get easier.  #

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!  100% Master!

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: So well said, thank You!

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: We've had some great comments and talk today.  Two more.

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Dae, love, you are up!

[09:15] Daelenie McMillan: Thank you  :)

[09:15] Daelenie McMillan: I am in the same boat with Peaches, I am just not that into getting hurt, I break out in pain. Now while a Sadists may enjoy that (me being in pain) I don't :P but I can take a bit of spanking and some flogging if my Dominant enjoys it. I get a a feeling of pride that I can do that for Him/Her. I am just not into the heavier pain.  There are probably many submissives in this category. It does not make us less submissive or inferrior to someone that likes the pain, It just makes us different.

I may have more to say next week, but that's next week.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Dae and reinforces the fact that not all submissives are or need to be masochists

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Sir Jason, then we will end with Master Laz's comment after your reply to Master Ballard

[09:18] Sir Jason Oi: There are actually 6 "horsemen", the acronym was shortened almost before it came out originally it was BDDSSM but that looked ugly so became BDSM Bondage, Discipline Domination Submission Sadism Masochism.. BDSM was first coined in 1993 before that it was simply SM or S&M. Sorry I'm a nearly lifelong student of the history of the Lifestyle. #

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, correct Sir.

[09:19] Becky Summerland: ♥

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Books on the subject form the 70s and 80s talk about S/M.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Our lifestyle evolves :)

[09:19] Sir Jason Oi: Yeah

[09:19] Now playing: Queens of the Stone Age - I Never Came

[09:20] Ballard: Yes, and  now it has morphed even more.  D/s is what we are, and BDSM is what we do

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: That was probably because it was seen as a disorder by many people really.

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You!

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Master Laz, You have the final word for today! :)

[09:20] Sir Jason Oi: Thankfully they removed sadism and masochism from the current DSM

[09:20] Laz: In regards to the MPD mentioned earlier. There was a sub here once who was very much a masochist and in a relationship 24/7 with a dominant. A co-dependency developed around her masochism. It got more and more extreme to the point where the dominant released her because he feared he would soon do her serious harm. This demonstrates that it is important for both parties to be aware of excesses. #

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed Master!

[09:21] Becky Summerland: ♥

[09:21] Ballard: Very true Laz

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: She may have been manifesting Masochistic Personality Disorder, Master.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: When a person has MPD, they cannot safely do ANY S/M activity, they need to get therapy.

[09:22] Laz: exactly what it was

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: and I don't say that as a slam, but as truth.,

[09:22] Becky Summerland: yes

[09:22] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell nods to Sir Laz, mentioning that the the distinctions can become blurred.

[09:22] Aspen Diamond: Very true Master Laz I agree full heartedly. Thank you smiling

[09:22] Sir Jason Oi: Most people benefit from therapy anyways

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: I did!

[09:23] Becky Summerland: very true!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Seriously, I do not think I could do this lifestyle safely had I not

[09:23] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell is still in therapy

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: I had a great deal of Italian Catholic guilt drilled into me by a well meaning but abusive mother

[09:23] Aspen Diamond: So did I

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: And getting free of that meant I could do this very safely now and enjoy it

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: mwahahahahaha

[09:24] Becky Summerland: many did have 'horror' stories, some decided to heal, others, they live in their darkness, perpetuating it

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all so much for participating in our discussion today, it was really amazing and shows the high caliber of persons we have here.

[09:24] flo: thank you Vanni and E/everyone for this awesome meeting!

[09:24] Ballard: Vanni, I adjust my work schedule to make this talk every Sunday.  I know that both Candice and Rouge were very excited about being here today.  Thank you for doing this.

[09:24] Aspen Diamond: Therapy helped me also. Years back and that is why I am in this lifestyle.

[09:24] AƐRIOƝ: smiles this was a fantastic discussion I definite plan to come every Sunday.

[09:25] Sir Jason Oi: Thank you all for the discussion I hope everyone learned something. Please enjoy the rest of your day. If anyone would like to friend me I am agreeable.

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: I appreciate Your attendance every week, Master Ballard.

[09:25] Laz: Thank you Vanni. Excellent job. :-)

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master!

[09:25] Lisa Summerland: Vanni, thank you for one of the very best Koffee discussions I have enjoyed. And thank you all for each of your comments and participation. I am proud and so deeply appreciative of our Xaara Community support to and for each other.

"Sadism": March 14th, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's get started!

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So the last couple weeks we discussed the B and D in BDSM, Bondage and Discipline, and last week had a rousing discussion on Punishment and Funishment

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Today we start S/M with a discussion of the S -- Sadism

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: I have a bit of exposition first then we'll go to comments and questions.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Merriam-Webster gives a general definition of Sadism as "the derivation of sexual gratification from the infliction of physical pain or humiliation on another person."

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: the Dominant Guide has a more specific definition for our kind of community:

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: "Within the BDSM community, the Dominant is most often the sadist, and the  submissive is generally the masochist (who derives pleasure from receiving pain). Also in the BDSM community, unlike most societal descriptions in the medical and psychological community, sadism is widely accepted as a healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual pleasure."

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Acts of Sadism seem to puzzle a lot of vanilla people in First Life -- "why do you get off hitting people?"

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: The answer to this varies from person to person, but in general, the feeling of power, of letting that desire to cause hurt to a person channeled onto a person that is willingly allowing it (nay, deeply desiring it!), and the lovely marks that are left on the willing Bottom with the hands, the paddle, the whip, etc, are the charges that drive the Sadist.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Sadism does not need to necessarily involve physical hitting, by the way.  Sadism may involve humiliation of the willing Bottom, mixed with physical pain or completely in place of it.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Different things turn on different Bottoms, so one Bottom might like being hit with a paddle until his or her ass and thighs are black and blue, while another may not want any physical pain at all, but really gets off on being totally objectified and humiliated in front of people.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: For today's discussion, however, I'd like to avoid Humiliation and focus on the Sadistic acts of "hitting, etc."  Humiliation is another ball of wax that we've discussed here, and really should have it's own hour.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: One last thing...

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: We are NOT discussing a psychological condition here where a person just acts sadistically toward people minus consent.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: A person doing that literally has a psychological disorder

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And cannot perform BDSM in any Safe, Sane or Consensual manner

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: so a person walking around acting like a jerk to everyone around them isn't a sadist in our definition...they're a jerk.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So with all that, let's discuss this.  Are You a sadist, do Y/you like sadism?  Or is this an arcane thing Y/you'd rather avoid

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: We'll start with Master RB, please.

[08:21] RB Quinn: Thank you, Vanni.  I told you last night i did not 'get' sadism... exactly because I had that 'non-consent' definition in mind.  I appreciate your exposition, which aside from having Taree and Elli here *beams*, makes getting up at this ungodly hour worthwhile!!! #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Definitely "proper" Sadism in the way we talk about it requires 100% consent, even what we call "consensual non-consent" (which is obviously consensual!)

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: And thank You Master RB!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master RB, Let's move to Master Ballard please!

[08:23] Ballard: Well, A while ago I had an amusing conversation with our very own Nova.  I told her that in all honesty, I don't consider myself a sadist.  I am, in fact, very sexual, and a scene with me invariably will lead to sex.  Binding a woman and whipping her turns me on, so it's foreplay.   She then observed that I had just described the definition of a sadist -  deriving sexual arousal from inflicting pain.  *sighs* 

The word is emotionally charged.  Like any behavior, there is no one way, or 'right' way.  Each of us has to explore it, come to grips with it, and find who we are in this lifestyle.  Don't let a label get in the way of your own desires. #

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: 100% agreed Master Ballard.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Sadism is derived, as many know, from the Marqs de Sade, in his book "101 Nights of Sodomy" which I tried to read and found rather unreadable lol

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: So because de Sade was a total libertine in his writing and many people find his stuff rather twisted, "Sadism" got a bad rap

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: I mean at one point in that book, the libertines talk about killing and eating the maid

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I didn't bother reading the rest

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: so yeah...."Sadism" gets mixed up with that

[08:26] Elli Quinn: And without ketchup! Barbarians.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly!  Or some nice HP Sauce and a bit of Spotted Dick

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So I agree Master Ballard, that the word is "charged" and a lot of people think "Sadism == sickness"...especially as there is a Sadistic Personality Disorder that is totally different than what we are talking about here.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: And try to explain this to a vanilla lol

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master for that insight!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Candice please!

[08:28] Candice Svenska: thank You Vanni, this is something i wrote a while back:

[08:29] Candice Svenska:

P=Pure Pleasure

A=Asserts my balance

I=increases my adrenalin

N=Narcissistic (yeas i had to look this word up ~grins~)

4 things i found to spell out for the word pain that truly describe what it does for me, also helps me surrender fully into the trust and loving hand of a person i fully trust not to overdo the torture to a point of no return.

when pain is delivered to me its not a punishment (unless it really is), but i only enjoy pain of pleasure, its releasing the inner me completely, i have control only to scream, swear and call out the pleasure, everything else i submit fully in trust of the one inserting it. Whether i am tied, strung up or told to stand or position myself to submit to the implement of choice, given a preference i would always choose the whip or flogger as my mind can race a million miles away at the sounds, the bite, thrashes, the cutting into my flesh baring my inner body, the marks left behind, power its released, the sensations caused, it arouses so much more than a spank with a

[08:29] Candice Svenska:  paddle. But honestly, dragging me off by the hair, pinning me down and whooping my ass raw with a bare hand can cause electrifying ramifications, to my mind, body and soul in world. Pain for submission i have honestly found to be mind blowing, i have never tried real, only with senses blind folded not knowing what was coming in the scene#

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: You....MASOCHIST you! ;)

[08:30] Candice Svenska: ~grins~

[08:30] Brianne: Awesome

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: I want to come back to you on this next week if you are here, Candice, as this is really a fine example of masochism!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: But what I will say right now is that every Sadist in the room just got a big grin on their face!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Running hands over hot, red marks while the bottom just lies there in a fog.  Better than pizza, and I love pizza!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway thank you for that Candice,and next week I'll remember to come back to you so we can get into your kinky mind and tell us WHY you like all that

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason, You are up please!

[08:34] Sir Jason Oi: Looking up at my tag I would definitely classify myself as a sadist. I enjoy all forms of sadistic play impact play(all sorts), knife play, fire play, blood play, needles, blood impact play, sadistic rope both in RL and SL. My tag is a warning as well as an invitation and conversation starter.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli perks happily

[08:34] Beth Oi nods at warning sign

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: May I ask a question, Sir?

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: As a follow up.

[08:35] Sir Jason Oi: Certain;y

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: How do people in general react to Your title and when You talk about your...interests...here in SL?  Do You get some flack for it, or is everyone "Dat be cool?"

[08:37] Sir Jason Oi: I get mixed responses, some ask further questions some ignore it and some have given me flack for sure. I wear it as a badge of honor and I guess I'm a little bit infamous.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli cheers \o/

[08:37] Becky Summerland giggles and blows a kiss to Sir Jason

[08:37] Sir Jason Oi smiles

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You Sir!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Sir Sam,please!

[08:38] Sam Cabot: "I do have a sadistic streak in me. I don't know if I would call myself a sadist though because it is not essential for me to enjoy the service of a sub. For me, it is not enough for a sub to say she consents to it. No, for me, she has to ENJOY masochism and derive as much pleasure as I derive in inflicting pain, or I won't do it. But when I know the sub enjoys it....I don't have words to describe the pleasure." pauses for a couple seconds lost in the thought before snapping out of it "And of course I remind her before the scene starts that safewording is an essential tool to be used for her safety and well being".#

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: ♥♥♥

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I will say as a person who does this stuff in First Life....a Top can't really rely on a safeword in a scene....*checking in* regularly is a must.

[08:39] Sir Jason Oi: Absolutely true

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Simply because the bottom is going to be in a sea of neurotransmitter and may well not know what is going on other than all the physical sensation

[08:40] Becky Summerland: 100% ma chérie

[08:40] Sam Cabot: True dat Vanni. I have paused scenes a couple times because I saw the sub wasn't ok, but had not safeworded.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: So when I am doing Top stuff, I always slow down a bit, move the bottom to a new position or at least do some light sensation touching and talk to them, to be sure they're ok

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I've seen people at the club go and not check in and it's really off putting to me

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: But I love all you said, Sir Sam...we are hearing the marks of Good Sadists here!  Just like Good Housekeeping, just kinkier!

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Becky please!

[08:44] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie!

[08:44] Becky Summerland: Oh, I am shamelessly a sadist... I admit to all of it, I am most of it... I've always compared myself to a cat, enjoying playing with my 'food', a nibble here and there... Nothing I enjoyed more than hearing Nixie with her wide eyes ask me for the first time "what did I do?" and my answer was simply "you made me very happy and will even more".... that was of course after weeks of sharing, talking, getting in her head, listening... those who know me know I care deeply, so, getting her ready to take it was very important, as is starting her slowly, because I will keep on increasing our pleasures  the more we grow together... and mostly, one of my golden rules, making sure that, all the way, and at the end, when she will cry in my arms, she'd still feel safe and loved, cared for. #

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: ♥♥♥

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: By the way, it might puzzle some to hear Becky talk about being a Sadist, as she is also a submissive to Miss Lisa.   D/s and S/M are two completely different things

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops I know at my club is a slave to her Mistress

[08:47] Becky Summerland: true ♥

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: And I love beating people, but I am not a Dominant, I can Top pretty well, but after a scene I want to make you dinner

[08:48] Sir Jason Oi: Some of the most sadistic people I know are masochists

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: True Sir Jason!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Becky!

[08:49] Becky Summerland: I love to whip cream, but also to be whipped back in shape

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Aspen please

[08:50] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni, Consent is where it is. Pain comes in like flavors like ice cream. There is allot of subs that need that release from there ((REAL JOBS)). It can also be on the emotional side also. I like a little pain when because then I can cry without a reason. When I get depressed and need a good cry I use to go and find a good cry baby move, but when you have a partner who can help with releasing that pain and mood helps. So I can turn pain into pleasure at times as a sub/slave even in Gor I did that. It is Trust like Candice wrote. Thank you Candice for your explanation.

Candice? you are right being pulled off by the hair, Being turned over and pinned by a Master whooping my ass raw with a hand, flogger, paddle, and making me settle down and take a deep breath and cry. Once that all comes out I feel all new and ready to face it.

The care of the Master, making me write out what really happen and talk with him also helps and wipes the chart clan.

Master Sam is right because maybe I have a little masochism in me also. Thank you for pointing that out Master.

Thank you Vanni.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: I had a student many years ago who would regularly go to a local BDSM club to get beat and "settle down" so she could study

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Actually I need to thank her....She got some Dominants from the club to come talk to my class, and that's how Vanni started to worm her way into the First LIfe BDSM world

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Visited the club, went to expos and munches, and before I knew it, I HAD THE DISEASE...I was a pervert!  And I loved it!

[08:54] Ballard: But a cute pervert, so it's ok

[08:54] Aspen Diamond: I would love to get back in the Real World again but living in a small town and have to travel at least 50 miles in all direction can be a pain in the ass like to day being snowed in.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Aspen!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Harry you are up please!

[08:54] harry: As you said Vanni, Vanilla people just don't get the idea . For myself i would say that i am a Vanilla person except that having come here to Xaara and having had my butt spanked i found i get, how shall i call it, a rush of pure excitement and i LOVE IT! If that makes me a sadist then, lol, i'm all for it. #

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Well it makes you a masochist

[08:55] Sir Jason Oi: That makes you a masochist

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Jinx, Sir!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: but it means you like people doing sadistic things to you!

[08:55] harry grins, Ah, thanks for the update

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: so welcome to the club

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli gives you a membership card and some hospital grade disinfectant to clean the frames and such

[08:57] harry: But it's not only that i'm a masichist, there is also the D/s relationship as well but thats perhaps for another time

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: We'll get into that in April

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: We still have Masochism and Humiliation I want to talk about

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: in the next couple weeks

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Harry!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason, we are back at You please!

[08:58] Sir Jason Oi: The checking in that you mentioned is why I really like the Traffic Light System vs. octopus (for instance) for safewords and checking in I ask "What's your color?" and as long as the answer is "Green" I just keep going. If I hear "Yellow" I'll slow down, lighten up, change toys or area of the body. A "Red" does not always mean that a scene has to stop but we at very least need to pause and talk about things before possibly continuing the scene. And yes sadism and masochism can be very cathartic.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: As long as people understand what the words are and what they mean going into the scene, that's great, Sir.

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: It's why negotiation before the scene is required.  Even in a long term relationship, some pre-check-in is a good thing, although it doesn't have to be extensive

[08:59] Sir Jason Oi: Traffic Light System gives gradients to safewording

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: I'm always reminded of the last scene in "Secretary" when Lee drops the bug on the perfect bed....that was a sign that "I want to play tonight...give me some funishment for putting the bug here"

[09:00] Sir Jason Oi: Mmhmm

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: So he would come home and the festivities would start

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Simple negotiation

[09:01] Aspen Diamond: Smiling at Vanni with the understanding

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir, let's go to Beth now, please

[09:01] Beth Oi: Physical Sadism or Masochism does not need sexual pleasure as the end result.  For some of us, S/m is pain for pains sake.  As a masochist, i take great pleasure in suffering for another person. It is a different level of enjoyment.  It is a need on both sides.  A craving.   It CAN be a gateway to submission or a spiritual experience.  But for me, it's power exchange in its purest form.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: A lot of people don't get how at the First Life club, we can do all this S/M stuff and NOT have sex.  It's not about sex, at least there and then.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: I'm sure people go home and get freaky

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: That line about "pain for pain's sake' is 100% spot on, Beth

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: We'll talk more about the masochistic tendency next week, but yes, 100% agreed

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: CC, you have a comment please!

[09:05] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I ove topping but I'm am no sadist. When I top someone, it's out of feelings of empathy. I love doing to people what love done to me. Putting somone on a cross and flogging the living daylights out of them is such an adrenaline high but not only because I empathize with the person I'm beating.

On the subject of checking in, like Vanni, I do like changing position but also, looking at them up close, checking the color of their skin in the face, the facial muscle tone. Their facial muscles will be droopy with a vacant stare. Have them talk to you.  People suffering severe trauma show flat affect along with their vocalizing in a flat monotone. The same happens with people in BDSM. In this case, not only stroking the but also talking them back into their body, get them to pay attention to the feeling of the surface they are sitting or resting, the feel of retrains, what s going on inside of their body. So much of this could be something beyond sub space and more disassociation.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: In a scene where I am topping, if the person looks dazed I'll snap my fingers in front of their face a couple times, if I get minimal or no response, I drop down to just sensation touching, no further hitting

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: They're already in neurotransmitter la-la land

[09:06] Candice Svenska nods

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: You get the mental aspect well, CC!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: I always appreciate your comments here

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Go back to Master Ballard, please

[09:08] Ballard grins, and sits back.  He stretches like a cat on a warm rock.  "Penetration."  he says the word with a profundity, as one may utter a holy word.  "This is where each of us has our own needs and desires.  To penetrate a woman, with my cock or something else, is a fetish for me (I cannot achieve true gratification without it).  The bondage and sadism that leads to that ultimate moment is, for me, the foreplay.  I am well aware that sadism is an end unto itself for many people, and sex is an option, or even an annoyance.  As part of any negotiation I try to make clear my needs, so everyone is on the same page." 

tldr:  In summary, clarity of needs/wants before a start is very important. #

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: And that's totally cool, Sir!

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: I mean, people are into some really outlandish foodplay...as long as it's consensual, there's understanding, and they like it, go for it!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank you Sir!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Aspen, you close us out and then I have a final comment

[09:11] Aspen Diamond: That is right Master Ballard, it is the gate way as Beth said. It all depends on the two in the scene with words or non. Sex or no Sex. It is all in the boundaries. It depends on the relationship you have with the Dom/ or sub. If you have played together you know how far you can push for both of your cravings to get over that craving. OMG it is the touch that is being the reward Master Ballard , that is the reward of what your comment said. Thank you Vanni

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli nods a lot

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Well said!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent comments!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I'd just like to say one quick thing

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: If Sadism is not Y/your thing, that is 100% cool.  Not everyone is a sadist, or a masochist.

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Some people like the beauty of the D/s relationship and would find it really unwelcome to bring S/M into the picture

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: We always need to do what's right and best for us

[09:14] Candice Svenska exactly

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: So go forth and do what is right!

[09:14] Mali Kaah silently thanks the gods for that..

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all very much for attending today!

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And please remember to throw a bit of linden love on the tip jar on the bar to keep our sadistic home going :P