"D/s and Leadership:" January 31, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ok it's time to start up!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!  Where we discuss all things rare and exquisite and look damn good doing it!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So today is a special day here in Xaara, it is graduation day, when those of us that have been studying to aspire to Seraph are graduated, and our very own Sir Ballard, along with Sir Garritt, will be elevated to Master Adept!

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: So while ruminating on this concept, it got me thinking about community and service.  As many of Y/you know, I am a sociologist

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: And in sociology, community is everything, humans do everything in co-operative groups.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: In most groups, *most* people do not lead.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Most are content to be led, not in a D/s way per se, but in a "let other lead" kind of manner

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Yet every group needs leaders, hopefully good ones!

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Yet I was also thinking that in a D/s community like ours, there might be a "kink" in that so to speak...

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: As in a D/s group, we have people that want to be served who are Dominant, and people that want to serve that are on the sub side.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So I was thinking, is this a dichotomy?  Subs want to please their dominants, and Dom/mes are expected to be the leaders of the community, but at same time, the subs are the servings ones!  LOL

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: My question to the august group is, how do we balance our own needs as people in this lifestyle to serve the needs of the community, while at the same time fulfilling our own personal D/s needs on each side of the collar?

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: I think here at Xaara we do this well, but I'm also hideously biased ;)

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Does being in the lifestyle make it easier to work for the community, or do competing individual needs potentially cause friction?

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Let's discuss!

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Sir Ballard, You are up!  I look forward to your insights as soon to be Master Adept! :)

[08:21] Ballard: You gave me way too much time to type.  Here goes

[08:21] Ballard: I tend to take charge of things going on around me.  This impulse is triggered if I see a lack or extant leadership or organization.  It is in my genes, I think.  Recently I was asked is being a dominant person nurture or nature?  I truly think it is nature.

While I say that, I know a great many submissives that are capable organizers and leaders.  The two skill sets are not mutually exclusive.  Thus, I will happily accept the leadership, for a project or event, of a submissive if they seems to be doing well.

In both RL and SL I derive tremendous pleasure if I feel my partner has had a great sexual experience.  Does that make me a pleaser?  Ok fine.  I may be.  That is not submission.  I humorously think of it as a way to keep repeat business.#

[08:22] RB Quinn: laughs

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli laughs! "Well, Sir, I think You are doing will with that bevy of beauties at Your feet!" ;)

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: You raise a good point, being Dominant or Submissive doesn't mean that exclusively one is going to be a better organizer or "pleaser".  I tend to think of D/s as tendencies rather than absolute personality examples

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Submissive people can indeed be excellent at organizing and even leading a group, that doesn't make them less "submissive" in other relationships

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I've talked many times about my friend that is a 24/7 slave to her master, but she manages a Starbucks.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: She does her job really well, but boy she loves coming home and just being led!

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So I think that's a good way to look at it, Thanks Sir!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead Cecelia!

[08:28] Cecelia Hadrian: Could it be fatigue, I mean when you are in a position where you must make all the decisions its nice to just pass the reigns at times?

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, she does say that it takes a lot of energy for her to do that.

[08:29] Ballard: It's more than that, I think.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: So coming home and being told "I want this for dinner, we are watching that show, I'm caning your ass assume the position (or so I hear)" is really freeing.

[08:31] Mali Kaah: thinks of a bubblebath as relaxing...

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: But at the same time her Master does help with things around the house, when he feels like it LOL (which honestly, from what I've seen, is fairly common)

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Sir RB!

[08:33] RB Quinn: Being led reduces anxiety about making decisions, but is not necessarily 'relaxing' or 'avoiding fatigue'  (cf 'caning your ass').  #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: True, flogging might be more relaxing.....

[08:33] RB Quinn: laughs

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: but very good point about anxiety reduction Sir!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen do you have a comment to Cecelia's point?

[08:36] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni, I am very anal working with the kids at school. I am very dominate and make sure each kid follows the directions. In my two room school with 7 grades to work with I am the bad cop for discipline.  When I come home I take everything off and coming here. Everyone see me pole dancing and that relaxes me to put my mind back being in sub mine.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Right!, so it becomes a freeing exercise.  Good point!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go to Storm please!

[08:38] Storm Raiden: as a community slave it can get a little lonely without direction, but i see it as an opportunity to serve the community as a whole just by being available to offer tours or answer questions at the welcome center -also by posing quietly in the gallery or around the sim too ...in a way it's kind of a self-sustaining cycle when looked at from that perception; i am serving the community and in effect assuaging my need to be of service hand in hand even if i am currently self directed, & the last five months as a slave here has shaped me to be a better submissive, at least i hope so  XD

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: You are an excellent person and submissive, Storm, and we are very lucky to have you here!

[08:39] RB Quinn ruffles Storm's hair and smiles

[08:40] Lisa Summerland: Well done handsome Storm

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: and I think your comment is also very valid, submissives find value in serving directly.  It's the "good job" that tends to get our hearts all a-flutter.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: well said thanks!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen did you have another comment?

[08:42] Lisa Summerland: smiles at each of the lovely and well serving Ponies in our midst this morning

[08:42] Aspen Diamond: I was just going to say that being sub. It is the heart of me to serve. It does make my heart rate race when I can serve drinks or even sitting on a Master/Dom lap now when I can. Done

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Aspen!

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The submissive does have the heart to serve!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please!

[08:45] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Regarding social relations, I come from the anarchist or libertarian socialist school of thought. This means not so much, "flattened hierarchy," but limited hierarchy where real power flows from bottom to the top. The directional aspect of bottom to top makes this model compatible to kink, where the Dominant is in charge but the authority is given to them by the submissive. The burden of proof is placed on the Dominant to justify their authority before the submissive person can trust them enough to do the power exchange.

So to me, it's healthy for a submissive to mindful of their own needs and is able to assert them in the D/s relationship when they feel something is wrong. This is what I'd call healthy topping from the bottom. I would hope that would work here in Xaara as a community, that submissive people be taken seriously when they have a concern instead of just deferring to the judgment of dominants, who see things from their perspective and may overlook some of the needs of a submissive. So I feel a sub person needs to maintain some control. #

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Right!  This isn't chattel slavery after all

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Subs, even "slaves" in the way we use the term, have rights of a person and dignity of being a person that *wants* to live that way

[08:49] Ballard: Slaves here retain their right of Consent

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Absolutely Sir!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: OK Pure, you have a question

[08:50] Pure: the more responsibilities I had at my job, the more jealousy my Masters showed. There was nothing pleasant and relaxing about serving on my return home. And it went to the breaking point. How do you explain that? (Am I off topic?) But even today, I haven't found an answer. So for me, being part of a community like Xaara gives me a sense of security and “freedom” to be myself. I still have to work to feel completely confident with my Master. #

[08:50] RB Quinn: C @ Pure

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I will defer the answer to your question to our Dominants.

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB please

[08:51] RB Quinn: My initial thought is, those "Masters" did not deserve the gift of your submission. #

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir!  Please go ahead Sir Ballard

[08:51] Pure: this is the reason why I left Master RB

[08:52] RB Quinn smiles sympathetically to Pure

[08:52] Ballard: With any submissive the most important task for a dominant is to study the subs needs, and learn how to enhance their experience.  When you came home, your dominant is responsible for understanding what you need, and giving it to you.  in that way they could come to control you even more deeply.#

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed as well, Sir.

[08:54] Sting Wolf : I agree too, I have always considered that the dominance was in the faculty of listening and guiding, I am adept of Zen and epicurean

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Now one thing could be that increasing duties at work could also reduce time spent with ones Dom/me, so I could see a Dominant getting troubled a bit by that, but that means shifting schedules I'd think, so everything can work together.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: But to me it sounds like something else was going on there Pure.

[08:55] Pure: mumbles ... at home, it was no longer control but pure meanness...So I never been able to understand his way to be.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: :/

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Honestly that sounds like immaturity to me.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I'm glad you're in a better spot now Pure

[08:56] Dorthy nods in agreement with Vanni.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: And thanks for the comment!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Miss Drachena please!

[08:57] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: This comment is regarding an aspect of the original topic question, and not related to anyone's comment/question.

[08:57] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: In talking about Dom/me to sub, and member to group, these are two different dynamics.  Someone might lead their sub, but not want to lead a group.  It's best to think of them separately.  The Group usually has its own designations and duties, hopefully well laid out, and though they might overlap at times, the purpose of them is distinctly for the benefit of the Group.  That said, a sub could be a leader of a group, and a follower in her own personal D/s dynamic, without conflict.  The concept of switching hats very much applies here. #

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I agree 100% Miss!

[08:58] Lisa Summerland: Very Well said Drachena

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli pulls out my powerpoint slide of "Micro - Meso - Macro" levels of interaction from Topic One in Intro to Soc

[08:59] RB Quinn whines "Is this gonna be on the test???"

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: What is interesting, Miss, is the interplay between the micro level interactions of say the Dom/me and their sub/s, and then the way that translates to the larger group

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: For example, how a Dominant responds to other subs here is not the same as they would to their own charge in that interplay, but at the same time, one informs the other to a degree

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: A Dom/me will lead here, but can't have the same expectations they would of their own submissive.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: etc etc.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: So very well said, I love all that interplay on various levels of society!

[09:02] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: True, because you usually can't know the needs of a group sub as well as you can your own, but the there would be guidelines to follow.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Right :")

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You, Miss :)

[[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne, you are up please

[09:03] Brianne: Whenever I try define D/s more precisely, I find that words like responsibility and decision and leadership and service do have application to both roles.  Even subs have to decide when limits are crossed or invent ways to proactively serve.  And as Sir Ballard wisely pointed out, he 'serves' to complete his sub's life  And yet it seems clear that D's and s's do similar things in obviously different degrees, in a relationship or in an entire community.  I guess that it's one of those things that gets muddled the more closely you examine it, and yet seems axiomatic when you stand back and look at it holistically.  Like a pointillist painting, maybe?  Perhaps someone can resolve this mystery.  Or maybe it's better that it's mystery that must always be a work in progress for it to work correctly.  *shrugs* #

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I've found, Brianne, is that humans don't fit well when placed in a box of social expectation

[09:04] RB Quinn smiles, thinking he LIKES the mystery

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: For example, if a person Dominant, that doesn't by definition make them a great leader, or conversely a submissive person won't by definition make a great personal assistant.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Please go right ahead, Miss Drachena.

[09:07] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: In each case the Dom/me and sub are being true to their nature, even when lines are blurred.  Pro-actively serving is also the sub's nature.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Miss!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Good point Brianne and thank you Miss.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: OK let's go to Sultry please

[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ-: My first marriage in RL was to a man who was extremely passive, and I was forced to be the person in charge.  I found it difficult and just couldn't seem to feel comfortable taking control no matter how hard I tried.  At that time I was very young and I had no idea about the D/s lifestyle or even realize that I was a submissive. I found it to be extremely stressful which eventually led to our divorce. In most of my relationships in RL and SL, I seem to attract the more passive (for lack of a better word) male, and I had always hoped each one would take more control, make more of the decisions.  Since becoming much more active in the D/s community, I have finally learned and accepted that I derive more pleasure, and it is my desire, to be submissive and serve rather than be the one in control.  It is not to say that I cannot be independent and strong, and take charge of a project or event when I need to, but overall I find it more pleasing and definitely desirable to be controlled. And due to recent events, I

[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ-:  am even more sure that I want and need that control and to have my gift of submission be appreciated.#

[09:10] Brianne: isn't every sub here nodding right now?

[09:10] Dijana384: yes!

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: I will say that submission can mean for some being "controlled" and for others "given opportunities to serve"

[09:11] Peaches Svenska nearly fainted having spoken those words, almost verbatim, to her Master not 10 minutes ago

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Just as Domination can mean controlling or creating those opportunities

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Speaking for myself, I balk at a person barking orders at me, but if they say "Here are things for you to do" and allow me to excel at them, I get really happy.

[09:13] Lisa Summerland: Personal self realization of needs and wants and personal fulfillment of them is such a blessing, joy and blissful feeling inside....... on both sides of the D/s relationship........

[09:13] Sting Wolf : The 5 differences between a LEADER and a DOMINANT

1. THE LEADER USES “US”, THE DOMINANT THE “I”

2. THE LEADER INSPIRES CONFIDENCE, THE DOMINANT IS AFRAID

3. THE LEADER ASKS, THE DOMINANT ORDERS

4. THE LEADER LOVES COOPERATION, THE DOMINANT THE AUTHORITY

5. THE LEADER MOTIVATES, THE DOMINANT INSPIRES THE FEELING

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: That's the kind of leadership I crave, again, speaking for myself

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Everyone has their needs :)

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sultry!

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Ok back to You Sir Ballard please

[09:14] Ballard: To start with I want to completely disagree with the 'list' that Sting just put out.  That is a list of the differences between a leader and an asshole, not a dominant.

I'd like to say something, as an add on to what Pure talked about.  Let's move it to a more general sense of service to the people in our lives.  All of us have moments that are noted, or special.  A log in time, an event.  As service not only to Xaara, but to each other, it is  important to make note of those events in our lives.  A regular log in time, a talk being given, or just coming home from work.  Making those times special have a great affect on people.  As Brianne pointed out, this applies to both D and s alike.  IF it should happen that what your partner needs/wants is something that you do not wish to give, then there is a compatibility issue to be considered.  It ought to happen almost naturally.

#

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: That's certainly well said Sir.

[09:16] Gideon Tenenbaum: Ballard  does that raise the question of whether a Dominant or a submissive should have to meet every need? Can any one human meet all the needs of another?

[09:17] Ballard: Absolutely not.

[09:18] Ballard: I mean, I have these three here, and you will never put more different people together.  Each has needs and wants.  I cannot even try to meet them all, and no one of them can meet all of mine.  This is why I advocate the Open relationship model, and non-monogamy

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Nods, good point Sir!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Rouge has a comment directed to Sir Ballard, go ahead Rouge

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: then we will finish with Aspen's comment after Rouge.

[09:20] Aspen Diamond: If you are a sub you need clear directions from your Dom/Dommma . If it is not clear then you second guess them . Not good in my books. I like someone who is clear. Just my opinion. I hate blurred lines from a Dom/Master, Domma. That is why I make sure that the kids second guess you. Following the rules Master Ballard I do agree with you. Again the Open relationship model is the best on to follow Master Ballard. This has been a very good morning listening to everyone. Thank you Vanni

[09:21] Aspen Diamond: Forgive me for some of the mistakes.

[09:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: thanks Vanni.. in agreement to what my Master just said, as well as to Master Gideon.. I have many facets about my kinks and submission. being a slave I have different views on how I feel I ought to be treated etc.. there are a few of my likes / kinks that arent totally up my Masters street.. does thsat make me feel any less about Him.. far from it.. for He gives me al the support He can possibly give me to encourage me to follow those needs and desires. again a great aspect of the house im a part of, is we arent restricted to just our Master, and can serve in any way that not only fills the needs of those who call us into service.. bu also our own needs # ( sorry hands bad today )

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Good point, Rouge!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: All that said, there are some people that do fine in monogamy or one Dominant/Sub.  It's all what a person needs

[09:23] Sting Wolf : I agree Ballard they are a lot of assholes chuckles

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: As long as the dynamic works, it's all good

[09:23] Ballard: I want to say, monogamy is a legitimate need.  Some people feel it keenly, and then it is best for them.  I and mine are open, but others choose a monogamous path.  To each, their own way.

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly, Sir :)

[09:24] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: horses for course as they say, my Master

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Which goes back to what Aspen was saying

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: (and it's ok Aspen, people tend to see their name and go ;)

[09:26] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for participating in our discussion, it went a bit differently than I thought, but that's good!  Conversation should be a living thing!

"Spirituality in BDSM": January 24, 2021

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's start up!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Welcome to Koffee Klatch where we brave the cold dawn for a better future where hands can slap bottoms.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: So I have a bit of exposition before I take comments.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Those of you that have been around Xaara for a while may remember that there were two Sunday morning chats

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: quite some time ago

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Bliss would host the **7AM** one (what a trooper!) which was a general discussion group

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: and then at 8AM was a "BDSM Spiritual Discussion Group"

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Hosted by a Xaara Dom whose name has escaped me

[08:15] Ballard: I remember his name, he is no longer around here.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: And then eventually taken over by Miss Bliss, who then suckered me...er....gave the the great gift of taking over this august group.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: In any case, while a weekly discussion on the spiritual aspects of BDSM would probably not fly, I'd like to have one where we revisit that topic.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Now I do not mean this in a particular framework of any particular religion.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: But acts that fit in the BDSM paradigm have been used for a long time in spiritual and esoteric frameworks.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: The Galli, the priests of the sacred pair Cybele and Attis in ancient Rome, were known to castrate themselves and run amok in the streets.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Catholic Saints such as Rudolf, Dominic and Theresa of Avila were masochists, subjecting themselves to intense pain to rid themselves of fleshly desire.  Monks throughout the Middle Ages would beat themselves with cords, wood and other implements to do the same.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Among Native Americans, the "Sun Dance" was a highly masochist type of ecstatic dance, in which the dancer would pierce his chest with hooks tied to a pole via ropes, and dance until they passed out.

[08:18] Daelenie McMillan: That's a rite of passage,

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: In the East, monks such Fakir among Muslims and the Sannyasi in India will self-flagellate into a meditative trance and lay on beds of nails, pass their hands through fire, and even stop eating and drinking for days on end.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Now of course, I am not trying to suggest that these are "BDSM" as we practice it, but we can see that many things we might connect to our lifestyle have been used for, as Dae said, rites of passage or some kind of connection to higher states and even beings.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: and just plain old sex is the closest we can get to physical union with another person, so it has a somewhat "mystical" connection

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So my question is, does this group see any reality in BDSM as a mystical/esoteric or spiritual practice between people?  Can a real bond be built between those that do it that transcends just "I like hitting people, give me your ass for ten minutes please."

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Nothing wrong with that of course

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: and make it 20

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Oh just as one more example, I went to a workshop where a woman was talking about how the chakras on the body correspond to various things that can be done in a BDSM setting.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So to raise energy for her witch practices, she would flog her sub on the sacral chakra area to raise sexual energy.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: That's the kind of thing I'm getting at here.

[08:26] Ballard: I am going to go ahead and 'out' myself in a few ways.  First of all, as a sadist, my thing is that binding and beating a woman turns me on.  It's foreplay.  So it leads to sex.  Yes, my scenes always will end up with me taking the pussy.  It's my thing.  so in my case it is not the beating for the beatings sake.  It's a form of extreme foreplay.

Second, I'm not a Christian.  that statement has quite a negative impact in my community, and has been hard for my family and community to swallow.  The fact that I think deifying Jesus is a profound insult to his memory, and not an enhancement to it, makes me even l;ess popular.  I tend to not discuss that.

I do feel a strong spiritual connection with people here in SL.  There are times Rouge and I will just sit together, just BE together, and I draw a sense of calm, strength and energy from that.

#

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli grins, "Welcome to the club, Sir!"

[08:28] Ballard grins.  "which club?"  laughing

[08:28] Ballard: Sex, pagan...

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Well the second one for sure lol

[08:28] Squishy Paine is offline.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: and the third

[08:28] Roman Huntsman card carrying member.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli checks Sir Roman's "Heterodox Religion Card" to be sure it's up to date

[08:28] Roman Huntsman got it stamped this morning.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli cheers!

[08:29] Ballard: When you make a Jesus a God, you take away his faith and replace it with certainty.  what an  insult to a faithful person.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: But I agree Sir, I think it is quite possible to make a real connection to people here that is more than "Facebook chat" or Twitter or what have you

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, Twitter is hell, or at least purgatory

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: So to wind back, Sir, you find that the acts You do here in SL to have spiritual value, whether it's talking, or smacking, or sexxing, right?

[08:32] Ballard: I do.  And in fact I find the consent paradigm greatly enhances that feeling.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Great!  Thank You Sir!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: OK Brianne, you are up!

[08:32] Brianne: I think that the 'head spaces' that we can get into can be transcendent, or certainly feel that way, something more that just emotional.    I've experienced moments that are indescribably impactful and pleasant, a simultaneous feeling of arousal and contentment that are not in conflict but that amplify each other.  Something that extraordinary fits my definition of spiritual.

(And I am a Christian and it all seems to work together nicely..  It's complicated, but that personal journey is part of the faith too.) #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: To your second point, Brianne, I believe as a sociologist that every religion has value to the people that practice it.

[08:34] Roman Huntsman nods.

[08:34] Lisa Summerland: Well said Brianne :)

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: And as Emile Durkheim said, the religious community is where the norms and values of society are shown and empowered.  So however a person decides to do that in whatever community, they are building community.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: to the first point, I do believe that what we do does lead to various altered states, which can open up many things in the human psyche

[08:35] Roman Huntsman: I was wondering when you'd cart out Durkheim.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli grins

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: I can quote liberally from "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life," Sir, but I don't want to put everyone to sleep....

[08:36] Roman Huntsman: Maybe later.  I'm in to that.

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Oh!  Like in Secretary

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Bend me over a desk and have me read Durkheim's propositions of religious function while I get paddled

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: hmm

[08:37] Roman Huntsman: Sounds like a date.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[08:37] Ballard: [08:36:16] Roman Huntsman: Maybe later.  I'm in to that. - and yet another kink!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: The danger of makes jokes around Dom/mes.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: They get ideas...

[08:38] Daelenie McMillan: never give them ideas

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: and we go, oddly enough, to Sir Roman!  Please go ahead Sir.

[08:38] Roman Huntsman: Thank you Vanni.

[08:38] Roman Huntsman: Historically, yes we know that one the paths to other mental states, purification, grounding, and cleansing can certainly be pain. I don't necessarily think it has to be painful to reach those states either though.  I could teach a whole series on chakra, actually but I do think it does come down to projective and receptive energy and that these actions do raise those energetic levels.  A lot of us pagans know the term 'chained to the later' so I don't think that religion/spirituality is as far from Service as some would like to think.

[08:39] Roman Huntsman: As Ballard points out there are connections we form with each other here, that even the quiet we can feel the calm.  For my Husband and I, it was instant, though I resisted ... probably not very long come to think of it.  Yet, still there are strong links to people, even soft ones as we all care for one another.  I do think that spanking grounds out the root chakra each and every time and I believe that we carry these actions into our BDSM play, the Dominant projective of energy, the submissive receptive, but that will always create a feedback loop that then does become transcendent of a 'normal' mental state, Brianne hit the nail on the head there.

[08:39] Roman Huntsman: Actually,  I could probably go on about it all day so I'll just stop here Vanni, am sure there are other ideas we could listen to. #

[08:39] Roman Huntsman: +chained to the alter

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Sir, that would be a great workshop for here!

[08:40] Roman Huntsman: I'll get right on that, still waiting to hear about my last one.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Everything You said there is very much part of what I am getting at, that the energetics of BDSM in any way are a loop and real energies are raised.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli won't even start on Crowley's sex magick techniques here...

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I know anything about THAT of course...

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: *cough*

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, you are up please!

[08:42] Hunter: This is a topic that I really struggle to process and understand. I have been to a couple of WS in RL where they discussed BDSM as both spiritual and religious, comparing and breaking things down to some really basic shit.. I've had friends discuss it at length, here in SL and in RL... But it has always been out of reach for me. I will sit, confused, outside of the conversation. I just do not get it. Perhaps I need to practice acceptance more in order to process it... I have limited understanding of religion and spirituality, even with my cultural background including a heavy religious and spiritual backdrop I still keep on the edge in the shadows wondering what the fuck people are talking about. I think I may be missing those brain cells and instead traded them in for an advanced knowledge on ball stretching. But what I do understand is how pain and altered states of mind comes into it.. That it has a place in religion and spirituality throughout human history, and it does within the BDSM and kink community

[08:42] Hunter:  too. I just wish I could unravel it in my mind and figure out how I am entwined with it. I believe that one day I will and when that days comes and I will understand my submission and interest in BDSM more than I can imagine at this point in time. #

[08:42] Brianne hears a volcano of knowledge boiling somewhere near Vanni craving to erupt.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, one of my most profound spiritual experiences came in my 20s

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: I went to visit family in New England and we took a walk in the woods, and we came upon a small lake somewhere.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: And coming up over the hill to that lake, I felt *it*.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Just a wave of energy and intense connection to all

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: So my point is, you don't have to "know" to connect, you just have to experience

[08:45] Brianne: amen ;)

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: and I think that BDSM allows us in a way to have that experience

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: A way of course, there are many ways

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Roman and Sir Ballard had comments directed to Hunter, so Sir Roman first please

[08:46] Roman Huntsman: Actually there are studies around a certain neurological responses to religious or spiritual aspects. It's been theorized we might even have a gene that activates a chemical in our brain that predisposes us to seek out those connections.  You may not be far from wrong Hunter, but I don't think these things would exclude you at all.  A physical realm is just as potent as a spiritual one.  Many of us ascribe to an as above, so below belief that interconnects them, but you definitely may be on to something there.

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli looks for the Emerald Tablet I have around here somewhere...maybe a paperweight

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, the things we do in the mundane have an effect on the sublime, and vice-versa

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard, You had a comment for Hunter as well I believe?

[08:48] Ballard: I just want to say that we each may experience and verbalize our inner reactions and feelings differently.  Do not make too big a thing out of not having the spiritual concept.  The feelings we experience:  It simply is.  Over thinking will just make your head hurt.  #

[08:48] Roman Huntsman nods.

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: All space is here, all time is now, all floggers are heavenly.

[08:50] Storm Raiden blushes about that whole over thinking thing but he bent to kiss Mistress Lisa's heel with a soft kiss before turning and pressing a kiss to Master Roman's thigh before waving to A/all and running off

[08:50] Lisa Summerland: Smiles deeply and happily

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: My quote from the Buddha in the Bhaddakaratta Sutta makes that point, Sir Ballard:  ""Do not chase after the past or place expectations on the future. What is past is left behind. The future is as yet unreached. Whatever quality is present, you clearly see right there."

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Live in the moment!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: With a cane or something even better

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:52] Becky Summerland: point the arrow of time on 'present', be here, not there

[08:52] Ballard: I find that submissiveness and masochists both (because they are not always the same) tend to have a habit of self doubt and self questioning.  I advocate acceptance of ourselves.

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, you have two comments so go ahead

[08:52] Hunter: Just to add... I'm not sure how to describe how I feel other than this.. I want to understand, but I feel like there is a big fuck off wall between myself and that understanding. I have a feeling that I may have put that wall there subconsciously, or perhaps, it's simply a part of makes me 'me'. Haha. #

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, even the great religious leaders faced moments of self doubt and confusion

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: The Buddha took years to get to the point where he just meditated.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Jesus asked that the cup be taken from him before he was arrested

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: So you're in good company!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Easau you are up please!

[08:55] Easau Pronounced A-SA: i too, am of the blief, that there can be a connection with a partner here in SL well beyond the screen. Personally, its a mind thing, a feeling, i have sadly only had it happen once and that person turned out to be an arse and it made me sad but when sceneing, my headspace got so deep, that i, accidently, astraled to Him, and freaked Him out when i told Him what color shirt He was wearing. We are still human behind all of this, and we still do feel, and i think being in the lifestyle, even here in SL, that that connection is important and its very real.  As far as  the confines of a religious sense, i am a Christian, always have been,and thats my choice and it has been of some contention when i was into the lifestlye RL. my parents did not understand that i could still be Christian and do "those things" There were times i would feel guilty about it, but i realized in time it was them projecting their beliefs onto me. And i would eventually just nod and let them talk their talk. Not everyone in the lifestlye

[08:55] Easau Pronounced A-SA:  believes like i do, and i dont believe the way they do and thats fine! Its just how we play, what one person likes, another doesnt, and thats cool! But even the act of submission, is for many i am sure, myself included, a spiritual, thing. There is more i could probally say but my vocabulary is not as good as most here and my thoughts tend to be all over the place but thank Y/you for allow me to share # *returns to gently rubbing the doogos ears thoughtfully as she returns to listening*

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I very much believe that the acts of Dominance and Submission can have a very deep spiritual/esoteric connection

[08:56] Hunter makes a face that could only be described as gooey fucking heaven as his ears are rubbed.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Paul endlessly referred to himself as the "Slave of Christ" and exhorted Christians to be the same

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: And just the act of putting oneself under a powerful person, for whatever reason, opens a lot of doors for the submissive.  And I'd think the Dominant as well.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: We've talked about S/M acts as spiritual, but the very act of D/S has a lot of that quality as well.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Very well said, thank you Easau!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up please!

[08:59] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vannie,

I am a white light Energy healer and a Reiki Master. . I do reading with Angel Cards in Reality at Holistic Fairs.   I am very well connected with the positive and not negative light. I do use the vibs of the chakra's and there is Kundallini Raising. Kundalini is the two headed snake that does live in the base of our spine. As I was in my early twenty's I always feel hight. Not being on drugs, or alcohol. It was high on life. I always and still believe in my gut feelings.

I was at a dungeon party and one of the Masters had troubles with his back. I was doing energy healing that night and he did not believe that I could help him.  

I have always believe in a higher being. Now I do smell spirits and see white whips of smoke also.  I have had spirits play jokes on me also. I am known through our school district as the ghost buster.

I put the white light over me and mirrors on when I go to school and the kids can't under stand why they get that feeling back to them.

I hope everyone can understand me. Please forgive me for being long. I have been watching chat and trying to catch things that everyone is talking about.. I too believe in the DS or MS in this.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Nice, Aspen!

[09:00] Lisa Summerland: c

[09:00] Roman Huntsman: Balance in all things.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: One of my college teachers did kundalini, he said the first time he did it, he felt a blast of energy come from his root chakra through his arm, and he couldn't stop shaking his arm for 20 minutes.  His teacher said "well, now that you did that wrong, let's try to help you" lol

[09:02] Roman Huntsman laughs.

[09:02] Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Of course, pervert Vanni thought "I'd love to be able to move my arm for 20 minutes...I'd never leave the house"

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:03] Aspen Diamond: It is such a rush and I don't get that from anything else. Better then drugs.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Roman, you have a comment from Storm I believe?

[09:03] Roman Huntsman: I do.  From Storm:  for me it is a place of calm to relax and let someone else do what they like and it makes me stop thinking so much, worry so much -because once they are making all the choices my job is simple, to be pleasing, to be present in that moment and that moment only, to please them ....to absorb the pain or pleasure or both until they are satisfied and that's what i want in my heart, to be so much of a target for whatever they are dishing out that they are happily depleted on me

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Very nice!

[09:04] Roman Huntsman: He constantly surprises me, in great ways.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: The diamond is in the rock, right?

[09:04] Becky Summerland: Storm is an amazing person

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Well said thank You Sir!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen you have another comment, are you done or do you have another comment to make?

[09:08] Aspen Diamond: I was saying that we all have a special way with our to deal in the realm and it is nice to have all kinds of mind sets.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: And in all things, charity to each other.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: best way to live life

[09:09] Roman Huntsman: Stop making so much sense so early.

[09:09] Raks: I believe many of of us are simply looking for direction.  For many that direction come from a religion.  When we totally trust that religion or its respective God we give ourselves completely into it hands.  When amazing and miraculous things happen we ascribe it to God and a wave of spiritual awareness comes through us.  If we look for direction from another whom we trust completely we can give ourselves totally over to them and still receive waves of spiritual feelings with respect to them.  That this position is a human factor a need in fact for direction.

[09:09] Jade Huntress Darkfire Cutrere: an old froed of mine who was in the air force said to me once jokingly  making too much sense isnt allowed lol

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Even the Master/Pupil relationship has that built into it

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: and that's very D/s based

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You!

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Miss LIsa you are up please

[09:11] Lisa Summerland: Thank you Vanni……………….   I’ve been on the Phone and unable to follow the discussion after Brianne’s lovely comment…………. I’ll read it on your blog soon ♥      However, I wish to say also, that Brianne’s comment echo’s my feelings and beliefs. I am neither judgmental nor discriminating towards any for any beliefs………… I follow Love and acceptance of all and believe Love is the greatest of all things and believe that it is through Love that the Divine Powers that have created and sustain us all, in the moment by moment, desire us to truly live and experience our lives…….   I also am a Christian and it truly all seems to work together so nicely with so much of so many beliefs once you peel away the layers to what is the true core of beliefs……….. “Love and Light darlings, I love and care for you all ♥

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Miss as a quick follow up, do You feel that being in this lifestyle has in some way helped you with that path of Love?

[09:14] Lisa Summerland: Yes, Vanni, it has opened so many doors to new and many varieties of deeply emotional, physical, spiritual and mental experiences..........

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: \0/

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Fantastic, Miss!

[09:15] Becky Summerland: c

[09:15] Eve Terr is online.

[09:15] Lisa Summerland: Our Lifestyle is so very much a blessing to and for me

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: ok two more comments then we'll be done, thank You MIss LIsa

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Stevie go ahead and then we'll close with Becky

[09:17]  ڰۣ-ɞ Stevie ʚڰۣ-: Yes Vanni, I have not been following the last couple comments, I'm sorry, I'm taking notes and etc,..If my comment upsets anybody I apologize ahead of time. I am a very open person.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: An opinion should not offend anyone.  Trying to *push* that opinion on another, whatever the context, is problematic.

[09:21]  ڰۣ-ɞ Stevie ʚڰۣ-: Sorry, I lost it

[09:21] Ç î Ặ Я Ặ is online.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: You lost it?

[09:21]  ڰۣ-ɞ Stevie ʚڰۣ-: lol, I wrote it on a nc and then pasted it ..

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: oh no!

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: ugh sorry Stevie!

[09:22] Hunter slurps up his drool and looks deeply offended.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: let's go to Becky and maybe you can write a quick summary of your idea

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Becky

[09:22] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie...

[09:22] Becky Summerland: I simply wanted to add that finding the right person to share your life is a deeply spiritual experience. My Mistress, as my partner, guide and mentor has influenced me in so many ways. I do look up to her as she is wise, has been patient and contributed to build a deep trust between us.

She knows things I don't even suspect. When she talks, I see the light, I see where I could be better. She is an inspiration to me as she's shown me how much she cares for me, and mostly, how much I have worth and I can be an enhancer in her life. As much as she enhances mine. #

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: That's beautiful Becky!

[09:23] Brianne: yay becky!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: And I definitely think a spiritual connection that transcends the mundane

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: I'd like to close this discussion with a quote from St. Theresa of Avila.

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Here she is talking about her Master, Christ, but this is a powerful statement of submission that I think any submissive can connect to and any Dominant can want to hear in some way

[09:25] San: Hi all, I am new here and I wanna say that I am so amazed by your conversation♥

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: O my Lord, what a great comfort it is to me that Thou didst not entrust the fulfilment of Thy will to one so wretched as I! Blessed be Thou for ever and let all things praise Thee. May Thy name be for ever glorified. I should indeed have had to be good, Lord, if the fulfilment or non-fulfilment of Thy will [in Heaven and on earth] were in my hands.

But as it is, though my will is not yet free from self-interest, I give it to Thee freely. For I have proved, by long experience, how much I gain by leaving it freely in Thy hands. O friends, what a great gain is this – and how much we lose through not fulfilling our promises to the Lord in the Paternoster, and giving Him what we offer Him!

[09:26] Ballard: When Rouge submitted to me she swore to be ever loyal with hand, mouth and thought.

[09:27] Aoisle: TL:DR "I still struggle with self-interest but by giving my will to you it actually is in my self-interest to do so"

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for coming today, please drop some love in our tip jar on the bar to keep our happy kinky home going!

[09:27] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ- giggles....I'll make sure I stick some treats in my pocket for Hunter next discussion!

[09:27] Roman Huntsman: Interesting thoughts from a Saint.  Thank you Vanni.

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: and remember next Sunday, the 31st, at 1PM is our Seraph ceremony

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: the biggest thing we do round these here parts

[09:28] Brianne: You all did it again!  You amazed me with your wisdom!  Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

"Freedom in BDSM": January 17, 2021

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch, where we sail the sea of coffee and discuss naughty topics!

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2020.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: So today, as we in the USA honor Dr. Martin Luther King, it got me to thinking about our lifestyle

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We use terms like "Master, Mistress, Slave"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: phrases like "Completely owned by...."

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: And yet we describe our lifestyle as very freeing.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: As an example, I have talked about my friend that is a slave to her Master in RL, but she runs a Starbucks

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: And she says when she gets home from work, it is very *freeing* to her to just let go and let Master make all the decisions

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: As it takes energy to be a manager and she feels drained

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So, the question is, do Y/you feel this -- how has being in this lifestyle make Y/you feel "free".  This could be on either side of the D/s coin

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Or even free to do things that "vanilla" society would look down its nose

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Are we really "Free" or are we making more of this lifestyle than we think?

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: What are opinions on this?

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Before I get to Becky, one other example came to mind

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: from the Dominant side

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: A former Mistress of mine, many years ago, said that in getting into BDSM, she realized how much she liked being "the Boss" and it freed her from past relationships where she had tried to be the "nice, caring girl" to getting what she wanted in life

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So this can obviously work both ways!

[08:17] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: C

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Becky, we'll start with you!

[08:17] Becky Summerland: briefly, I don't think we are more free than anyone else in society... that feeling of freedom may simply come from allowing ourselves to live as we wish to live, 'free' of some of the limits of society. #

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So it's more of a socio-intellectual "freedom" than an actual freedom, Becky?  A change of perspective?

[08:19] Becky Summerland: mmmm.... it's more, what if our wish is to be owned and live as a slave and so far, all we've done is live according tot he principles of our upbringing? How freeing does it feel to actually shed those limits and move on, living the life we want, without looking to fit into a mold?

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: I like that!

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Very well said, merci, cherie!

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Becky, we move to Sir Ballard please!

[08:21] Ballard: The first woman I owned in SL was, in RL a very intelligent, strong, executive level worker and civil rights minded black woman from California.  We discussed the issue of slavery.  To her there is no kinship between the cruel Involuntary, economic and sexually exploitive slavery of the old European world (which included the Americas) and the consensual surrender of power that we explore today.  In my case it frees me from my oppressive society's current culture of shaming men for feeling like men.  I can be myself here, and while (as many of you are very aware) I am cautious of consent,  I can be the dominant man openly here.  That is freeing.  #

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: From the Culture of Shaming to the Culture of Caning, Sir? ;)

[08:22] Ballard: Oh I like that!

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli grins

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I have liked about being in the BDSM community in both First and Second Lives is that traditional gender roles are really not there.  All form of gender expression is allowed, what being a "man" or a "woman" is, is really open to personal expression.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: So one guy might express masculinity as a leather biker guy, and another as a very femme acting male, and same for women, and trans people.

[08:24] Ballard: Yes, very much so

[08:24] Ballard: "Be yourself"

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir, very well said!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Lyall, please!

[08:25]  ŁγĄŁŁ: Those of us that do this lifestyle, do not judge each other in the same was the vanilla world judges and by that alone it makes us freeer, Your kinks ok , mines ok. Not the you need to do it this way, love this way, react this way of vanilla life.#

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Although just the last couple weeks we did talk about how some people in the online BDSM world like saying "UR doing it Wrng"

[08:26] Now playing: Mumford & Sons - Snake Eyes

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I tend to find that a lot more in online than First Life worlds

[08:27]  ŁγĄŁŁ: thats because so many online its a game , rl we live it

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: One guy in my RL community was making some nasty remarks in our "break room" about some play and got dressed down for it.  He eventually left in a huff as we were too "intolerant" for him

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: I mean....the idiocy he displayed was off the chart lol

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir Lyall, thanks!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please

[08:28] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: For me, being someone's submissive is totally liberating. I know my place, Mistress Zati knows her's, she makes the decisions and I work on the things that make our very loving relationship work. We are devoted to each other and know our roles. During sex, I don't have to make decisions of what position or who is doing what to whom, I'm free to do what  I like and am good at, conjuring up for her the most beautiful and poetic emotes I can to please her, and in turn, please me. I get a feeling of total liberation from having her using me as  her toy, her sex object, her instrument of pleasure and I'm satisfied when she is.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent, this is exactly the heart of what I am looking for!

[08:29] Brianne: hear hear!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway....let's continue....thank you CC that was spot on!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Abs you are up please

[08:34] Abriel Stargazer: Like CC, submitting is very freeing to me.  I am the primary bread winner in my house hold and am also in charge of making sure the bills get paid, among other things since my RL's seizure condition messes with his head and he has trouble remembering stuff, plus my RL job places a lot of demands on me. I'm pretty much always having to be in control, in charge, and it's a lot of pressure and a lot to take on. So it is very, very much a relief to let Someone Else take teh reins, if only for a little bit. In fact if I don't serve or submit to Someone in awhile I get edgy, anxious, and irritable (like now...yes it's been awhile). I like not having to think, not having to make decisions, just feel.

#

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: very much like my friend, Abs, she says the same thing

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: When one is submissive, it takes energy to be very proactive in the social world

[08:36] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I'm so glad you find time for yourself in sl Abs

[08:36] Abriel Stargazer: boy howdy does it ever

[

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Very good comment Abs, thanks!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne you are up please!

[08:37] Brianne: It's cliche', I know, to say that submission brings new freedom but the structure of D/s takes some guesswork out of a relationship, freeing me to pursue more important matters and express myself more deeply within this safe envelope without a lot of thinking, just doing (much like what CC and Abs said).  Plus, letting someone else 'write my life story' (with my help) offers surprises that I might not conjure up myself, breaking me out of my same old fantasy rut.  That's a kind of freedom for sure.

[08:38] Brianne: #

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: That sort of is the point of submission, I'd think?  Letting another direct the story

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: some subs and slaves like to use the analogy of the canvas -- they are the canvas to be drawn on by the Dominant

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: With my friend, when she and her Master go out to dinner (when we were going out to dinner...) .. she wasn't even allowed to touch a menu.  He would order for her.  Always what she liked, but it got down to that level.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Brianne, well said, great comment!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Sultry , you are up

[08:41] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: So many great comments! You know, I must admit that I knew nothing about the "BDSM lifestyle" prior to SL, and definitely nothing about it in RL, and that was just only about 4 years ago.  Society has always pushed women are to be independent and equal to men.  I feel there is some truth to that, however, it was not what I felt was the only way I wanted to be.  I guess I knew all along that I was submissive and that was the most freeing part for me.  And learning that being submissive does not mean that it takes away my opinion, or anything like that either.  It's just a natural way for me to be.  I have had so many friends unfriend me because they simply don't understand what that means.  I thrive on the dominance, and it is now a need and desire for me.#

[08:41] Vanilla Meili is online.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Well as a sociologist, I can tell you that this binary, either/or perspective that a lot of people have, is pretty much rubbish.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: A person can be strong and independent in social life, and a total sex/pain slut in other contexts.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Sultry :)

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: zahar, you are up please

[08:45] zahar: This discussion tugs at my heart because it is so much a part of me and my submission.  Outsiders don't understand. Sultry,

[08:45] zahar: Consuela and Abriel expressed so eloquently what I wanted to say.  Allowing one to go inside and explore sides they never knew. it's self discovery. Also a calmness, smoothing of the rough edges knowing someone you trust freely has your best interest at heart.#

[08:46] Becky Summerland: ♥

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: That was a very good comment, zahar, well said!

[08:48] Ballard winks to Zahar

[08:48] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: Thanks Vanni

as ive mentioned before, I am owned in real life and have been for a good number of years now. to me, being in His collar is so liberating. for when was lost and no owner, I felt numb, no purpose, nor had any guidance. yet soon as that steel went about my neck, the weight was lifted off my shoulders. I never hide the fact im owned, the collar is worn 24/7 even at work, when had a job.

to me, being in bondage.. and im not on about chains/ropes etc, as much as those are fun as hell.. but to be a slave, it lets me be the real me. plus being able to surrender and have things decided for me, or at the very least heavily guided makes life all the more simpler.

even here in sl, im owned by the best Master a girl could wish for, and even here, I trust Him 100% to do what is not only going to please Him in how He treats what is His.. but also whats best for me as well.

others might disagree, but for me.. a slaves life is the best life! #

[08:49] Ballard gives Rouge a cookie.  "good girl"

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: I do not think many will disagree with your views here, Rouge :)

[08:49] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: ♥

[08:49] Brianne: that's practically a manifesto

[08:49] Abriel Stargazer: mmhmmm

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: The Submissive Manifesto:  "There is a spectre rising over the world, the spectre of submission."

[08:50] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα takes hte cookie and smiles " thank You my Master " then to Vanni. " for myself.. to feel safe enough, that I can open up and fully surrender to someing and give them that trust is hard. im just thankful I have been blessed with that in both realms.

[08:52] Brianne: "subs of the world unite!  you only have your chains to ... gain?"

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli cheers!

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Hey, no cane, no pain, no gain

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Ok thank you Rouge!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: excellent comment!

[08:56] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: thank you again Vanni

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Gem!

[08:57] Gem: I'd just like to say that had i not decided to embrace submission then i wouldn't have met so many wonderful people and found so many friends who actually understand me

[08:57] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I could take this in an existential direction.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Gem!

[[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I mean seriously, once you get in the lifestyle, going back is like returning to Plato's dark cave

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Why would one want to do that?

[08:58] Ballard: uh oh.  CC is getting philosophical.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Gem!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: CC do you have a philosophical comment to make?  Why don't you Startre up with that?

[09:01] Ballard: ouch

[09:01] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: To take this in an existential direction, we are all going to die, death is the dominant reality in our universe. When we face it and submit to it, we are freed from all the crap in our life that we thought was so important. It frees us to see what really IS important, who are the important people in our lives, what really are our real priorities. Submitting to death, the ultimate dominant, that frees us all. Including those identifying as Dominiants.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Speak for yourself there

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: ;)

[09:02] Brianne: WOW CC!

[09:02] harry: well said CC

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Well I did tell her to "S(t)artre" us up

[09:03] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: it's good philosophy when you're talking to someone who has faced critical life saving surgery in a hospital

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Well to be Sartre like ... as death is pretty much the essential act we all face, we make our lives ourselves, and we are responsible for them.  and so what we are is ours to choose -- that is the freedom existentialism posits.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that CC!

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Pure, you have a comment to make?

[09:05] Pure: With my Master RL, I had to a certain point a more fulfilling relationship than many "traditional" couples that I know. More discussions, less anxiety ... for me. A relationship made of respect, sharing and trust. I always felt free to be myself. While things were different for Master. His social position, the pressure from his peers ... I have often thought that it was I who had the "good role". We forget often we are more free than our Dom

[09:06] Brianne: I wonder what Dominants think of what Pure said.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Pure, well said!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: we have two more comments so let's get to those to end our discussion

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard you are up again please

[09:08] Ballard: I would add to this talk that in my case, it has been the UTTER banishment of any idea of monogamy that has been  incredibly freeing.  All four of use are free to explore, to play, to be ourselves.  We do not all share the exact same kinks, but we can get out there and explore our needs and wants,.  This is because the doors and windows are open.  Monogamy and jealousy will never darken my doorstep again.  #

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: "We all belong to each other."  Oh wait, that's Brave New World

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sir Ballard!

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Aspen, you have the final comment for today!

[09:16] Aspen Diamond: Please forgive me for being so late,  Death is a two way street. Death in your heart of someone refused you and losing someone very dear to you. Master Ballard has a point about there is jealousy and Drama nd I have been a target of that in my SL life.  We will have these people around us but need to choose wisely. Fetlfe there is allot of want-a-bees Dom but it is also people who you trust in real at munches Lady Consuela.

[09:17] Abriel Stargazer: I've been there too Aspen...the target of jealousy and drama and gaslighting. it's not fun.

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Kira did you want to say your comment as you got kicked out by your internet?

[09:20] Kira Ragged: so a different perspective here maybe

[09:20] Kira Ragged: so I can only speak to this right now from my experience as a Domme to male submissives, but often what I see from them is seeking a sort of freedom from the responsibility for doing the things that they like. It's as though they need "permission" from me to engage in something that they desperately want but can't reconcile the fact that they want that thing with who they see themselves as. So, my being in control means that .. it's ok.. they didn't do it because they wanted to.. they did it because I wanted them to... I'm giving them the freedom from holding themselves responsible for what they love, and hate that they love.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: I do think there is a psychological difference between male and female submissives...not that one is "better" than the other, just the approach

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: that might be worth a talk if we can get enough male subbies here.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Ok as we are very late, the official munch is over, but if Sir Ballard and Aspen want to get their comments out, please go ahead.

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you A/all for coming today, please give to the sim to keep our happy kinky home going!

[09:23] Ballard: I am strictly hetero sexual, so it may surprise many of you to know that I have owned male submissives, and have mentored others over time.  A sub is a sub, I respect the needs in all of us, regardless of gender or orientation.  I see myself in an important role with any submissive as a mentor, a trainer perhaps, and even a friend.  A calm voice to still fear and self esteem issues.  Scenes are not the only part of what we do here.  #

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Sir!

[09:23] Brianne: one common thread , it seems:  decisions are a burden, likely submissive.  decisions are a joy, likely Dominant.

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: BDSM does not have to equal sex after all.  the Apostle Paul called himself the "Slave of Christ" but that was pretty G-rated after all.

[09:24] Abriel Stargazer: yes, well said. I know I myself see sex as an unncessary bonus...nice when it happens but I don't absolutely need it

[09:24] Aspen Diamond: It is the giving up the control to another. It is the freedom you have to give yourself to let go of the lead. Master Ballard hit the point on the head of self-esteem.

[09:24]  ŁγĄŁŁ: Agrees with Ballard, but even in rl bdsm male subs are trapped in the vanilla prospective, of what is correct behavior

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for coming!

"Dealing with Perceived Abuse": January 10, 2021

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: ok before we start, a cool announcement

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: I have created a blog for our discussions

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: so I will put the weekly transcript of the chat there

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: I am also working on a second one that will archive the past ones:  https://xaarakoffeeklatcharchive.blogspot.com/

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Well it's easier this way, so if someone asks me "do you have week's discussion" I can just point them to the blog

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's go ahead and start

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Welcome to our second Klatch of the year

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Also if we could please keep extraneous chatter to the minimum during the talk, it would helpful, thank Y/you!

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: (and makes editing the blog transcript easier! :P)

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So last week our discussion was on how we deal with people that say "Ur doing it wrng", and don't get or as Heinlein said, "grok" our way of doing our own BDSM style.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: This week I'd like to tackle the sort of flipped side of that -- if we really *do* see abusive behavior, are we allowed to intervene?

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Now at a RL club or dungeon, there are "Dungeon Monitors" walking around that keep an eye on things

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And if they see something that breaks the rules of the club, they have the right to stop the scene, and even eject the person(s) involved if they get too mouthy about their "whatever" being stopped

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: but there, it's a club with S/M scenes going that could do real harm to a person, or get us all arrested

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Here in SL, the world is different, and what can "harm" a person is less precise

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So my questions are twofold today:

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: 1) If we really do see something here at Xaara that in our mind constitutes "abuse", do we have the right to say something?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: and 2) How would we approach that?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Or is it just "none of our biz" unless it's breaking an obvious sim rule

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: But as a community, can we make that our biz?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: I'd love to hear Y/your ideas on this

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: And I'd like to hear both our Dominants and our submissives and guests on this!  I know as subs our options are "get a dominant" but we still have to make a call on that.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Roman you are up first!

[08:24] Roman Huntsman: We absolutely should as fellow human beings reach out to speak to someone who feel like may be experiencing abuse.  If not to seek an understanding of the interpretation of what you are seeing.  What can look like abuse from the outside may actually be an agreed upon dynamic.  One person's abuse might be another's kink in some way.  However, I do think that people who are being abused have a hard to recognizing that from within, so continual education of 'what is abuse' and 'what are the signs of abuse' should be an educational goal of most communities.  You cannot always change a person's mind or help them see it, but you can be a friend, and keep lines of communication open to make sure they know they do have a safe harbor somewhere.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Sir!

[08:25] Roman Huntsman thinks about it for a bit then concedes the floor, "Thank you Vanni." #

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, that is an issue...what looks "abusive" to some is a real thrill and part of the kink to the people involved.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Well, well said, thank You!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Ballard next, please!

[08:29] Ballard: Perhaps the most painful sort of abuse I have seen in SL might be termed "string along ghosting".  This is where a dominant collars a sub, and after a while they disappear.  Then they reappear with some lame ass story, and string the sub a long for another period of solitude.  Of course the sub is restricted.  This is, I believe a fetish for the dominant doing this.  They get a thrill out of the pain they cause emotionally, and of course they have the viscous thrill of seeing how long they can make the other person suffer.  And suffer they do.  Because they want to be owned,  loved, and cherished.  The dominant will often say the very sweetest words to keep their victim entrapped in the web.

I have seen this many times, and in almost every case trying to intervene simply makes the submissive get defensive and angry, because they have an almost religious devotion to the turd that is tormenting them.  It is a delusional false hope, like being addicted to a harsh drug.  Often they just leave, and you don't see

[08:29] Ballard:  them again.  BUT!  A few months later here comes that dominant  looking for another one to do this to.  #

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Sir!  This is not just a problem in BDSM circles, it happens in vanilla too.

[08:30] Ballard: Oh yes.  Here I apply it to SL

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: And as a person that has studied abusive behavior academically and deal with it in FL as an instructor, I have seen a LOT of this.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: It is in my opinion a sociopathic behavior

[08:31] Abriel Stargazer has also seen way too much of that

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: the abuser gets off knowing their mark is desperate and waiting, and comes back just long enough to keep them strung along

[08:31] Ballard: And HOW can you slap the sub and make them see the light?

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Well, that's the just problem, Sir.  They need what AA calls a "moment of clarity"

[08:32] Ballard: yes

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Abs as you have a c to Sir Ballard you'll be moved up

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And some people never attain that moment of clarity, sadly.

[08:33] Abriel Stargazer: My answer is that you can't, Sir. If you as a Dominant try to tell a sub that her Dom is being horrible by abandoning them and stringing them along with that they're just going to think you're trying to poach them. I know because I’ve been there. #

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly, Abs

[08:34] Ballard: if they do have the moment of clarity, it comes with a crushing loss of self esteem.  And yes Abs, exactly

[08:34] Ballard: Cuz trust me I have tried!

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed with that also, Sir. :/

[08:35] Lisa Summerland: Ballard, I am not a violent woman, but reading of the type of Individual you just described as a "string along ghoster" incites me and brings my blood to a boil and so does make me want to beat abusers like that so severely.....

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: *hugs* Miss Lisa

[08:35] Ballard: You go ahead, Lisa.  Whack his pee pee!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: lol

[08:35] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:35] Abriel Stargazer: lol

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir Ballard and Abs

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Wise words

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Brianne who has a question

[08:36] Brianne: Is it a good baseline policy to, as a first step, ask the "victim" in IM if they've consented?  And Sir Ballard has raised an issue that negates the utility of this, which makes me wonder even more deeply about the proper course of action.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Meaning, if they are being abused, they'd just say "everything is fine" anyway, right?

[08:37] Brianne: yes.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Again, the same problem exists in First Life, but here we have just text -- no tone, no affect that could say otherwise

[08:38] Brianne: but is it worth trying?  or futile?

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Good question!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: I've told this story before but let me quickly repeat it as it's topical

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: A bunch of years ago I found a squatter on my land, he had put up a house and a barn

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: in the barn he had four women "chained" there

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: And I found one of them active who told me that he would log on at a certain time, take one of them in the house, fuck them ragged, and then chain them back in the barn

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: they weren't allowed to leave or IM anyone

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: I told them they were being abused, but they LOVED Master Barnyard

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: And when I said that I had to return everything, but they could stay with me in my area and get away from him, they flat refused

[08:40] Abriel Stargazer almost snorts her orange juice

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Saying how well they were being treated by Master Barnyard

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: (That wasn't his name, btw)

[08:41] Brianne: did you determine if they really were, or misguided?

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: oh as a coda, after I returned everything he IMed me, said what a little bitch I was, and that I should go in the barn and learn how to be a proper submissive

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I told him to fuck off in several ways

[08:41] Kira Ragged: hear hear Vanni

[08:41] Roman Huntsman: Several languages.

[08:42] Becky Summerland: yep lol

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: I still don't know Brianne

[08:42] Kira Ragged: and some sign language for the impaired too i hope..

[08:42] Abriel Stargazer: he was squatting though, wasn't he? so, um, was it really shocking to him that you returned his stuff?

[08:42] Roman Huntsman: At least one obscene gesture.

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: they seemed happy, but an abused person will come across like that as they are experienced PTSD and are scared

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: As Sir Ballard pointed out

[08:42] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα knows that all too well

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Abs he told me he had every right to be there as a "Master" lol

[08:43] Abriel Stargazer: Of course he did

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: I have to cut at 9 btw, so I can get back to the barn...I mean watch Lifetime

[08:43] Becky Summerland: its the natural order of things, jeez

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's move on!

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Becky you are up please

[08:44] Becky Summerland: Thank you ma chère Vanni... In my opinion, its never our business, but shooting a quick IM to someone we perceive as maybe in trouble is never a bad thing, just a check "you okay love?" you never know, they maybe in trouble and ready to share, or it may just show them someone cares and they could reach out to you later in life. Show care, but don't try to live their life for them.#

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Becky

[08:45] Brianne: I think that helps answer me.  It's not a cure-all, but showing concern could be the right thing at the right time.

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Becky!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to will please

[08:46] Brianne smiles gratefully to Becky

[08:46] Becky Summerland: being human is often the solution, no one has the answer to every situation, except, 42 of course

[08:49] will: Thank you Miss Cannoli! My comment was of course from the submissive point of view. I think as a house slave, it is imperative to have protocols set up for dealing with these situations beyond just get a Dominant. I know when fellow slaves are being abused, and I’m going to step in right away, but how am I to know with outsiders? I am a take action type, but I also don’t want to overstep my bounds

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I assume at Substratum there are rules such as here, so you mean that if you see those specific rules broken, will?

[08:50] will: Yes. I mean the rules in place cant cover every type of abusive behavior

[08:51] Roman Huntsman: "Will is our hero type," strokes the back of his neck fondly.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Well done, Will!

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: ok as we have a line of people waiting we will move on, but thank you for that Will!

[08:52] will smiling proudly " It helps that IM a pushy loud mouth too"

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Kirin please!

[08:53] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: Thank you. Well most of you took the words out of my mouth already. So I'll just soundly agree with what Ballard, Lisa Beck and will have spoken already. So well said.

[08:54] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: and what you said too Vanni. Had a similar experience but that is a long story for a later time since we are running out of time.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: We will move on

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Kira, you are up please

[08:59] Kira Ragged: I absolutely think that something should be said, however given the difficulties already mentioned in whether the abused can even see that they are being abused.. and I say this as a survivor of rl abuse as well.. I went to my rl ex-husband’s second wedding specifically to say to his bride as soon as his back was turned "are you ok? do you need help?" And that's the thing, I think all you can do is be a support system, speak up.. let the possibly abused know that you see them, that you're there for them if something's wrong, and be prepared to help if they decide for themselves they need it. That said, i think in addition to support for those already abused, it helps a lot for submissives in general to be exposed to education and support that lets us know that submissive doesn't mean no boundaries or limits and that any Dominant that would tell you that standing up for what is right for you is "topping from the bottom" or that you're not a real submissive is a bad Dominant.. I was lucky enough to get my hands

[08:59] Kira Ragged:  on some reading material about what are red flags that someone is more likely abusive than Dominant early on and that helped me a ton in vetting people

[09:00] Kira Ragged: I have literally had both of those things said to me by would be Dominants, they lasted about 3 seconds

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: We have two workshops we do here at Xaara -- one on "red flags" and then I do a second one on avoiding abusive relationships.

[09:01] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: when is the latter one held next Vanni?

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: When we start the Angel program again

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: so sometimes in Feb or March, depending on the schedule

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Kira, yes well said!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Storm you are next please

[09:02] Storm Raiden: a lot of the problem, for me at least in cases of being abused, i know if i get in a personal collar i will start fawning hard core and so i have to be very very careful of those (and am);  but i had to learn the hard way, and in my heart being loyal was important to me and so someone asked how do you make someone see they're being abused -you can't, or we secretly or overtly already know but we're hoping it gets better ... like waiting for a train that never comes; because surely it's just over the horizon any minute.  it'll get better next week, next month, when x happens, when ... forever and forever, amen.  the best way i think is to just be there for someone until they get that moment of clarity and they have to want to have help, have to want to do the work from the inside on how to set boundaries for themselves

[09:03] Lisa Summerland: So true Storm, personal Boundaries are difficult issues to determine for many

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: As Sir Ballard and others have pointed out, abusive behaviors are not constant, they come in waves.  We talk about the "Cycle of Violence" that goes 1) Tension Building, 2) Acute Abuse 3) Honeymoon

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: So the abused person sees lots of "good times" and even hears "I'm sorry it won't happen again" ... until it does.

[09:04] Becky Summerland: sadly, some abusers know very well the cycle of violence and exploits it to be seen as white knights

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[09:04] Kitten stands and hands a note to mr Huntsman before slipping off quietly

[09:05] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: its not so easy.. the longer it goes on.. the harder it is to speak out and do something about it. and I speak from rl experience here of 15 yrs.. and even after got away.. its been 23

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Rouge!

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: And goes back to what Brianne asked and said might be futile...you'll get a "everything is fine" response

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: when you know it isn't, but what can you do?

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Unless that moment of clarity hits

[09:07] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: only these past few months, I finally got the courage to go to the cops about it all. so now have to wait and see if it goes to court

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Storm, well said!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: *hugs* Rouge

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: This might be late to the discussion but I might also add as to intervening, when you do so without the subs permission and then tell her what she needs to do, you are just replacing one abusive partner with another person controlling his/her life, no matter how well intentioned.  Sorry if someone has already said this. As to it happening again, when abuse happens, statistically up to 80% chance it'll happen again. What I have told victims when I worked for a safe house.

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I told a story last week of my experience with a dominant on another sim, how he asked to do voice, so I did, then he forcefully took control. What started out as mild flirting turned into him ordering me give him complete control and making me promise to serve him in the future. I had to pull myself together and get him to stop. I could have lost myself in that encounter, to someone I'd just met!

Since then, I've seen this dom here in Xaara. I chose to talk to him first to explain what and why was wrong with our encounter and why it could get him ejected and banned from Xaara if he was caught taking control without consent with another sub here. He said he was harmless and would obey the rules of Xaara and Miss Nes, when I talked to her about him says he's been taking dom classes  her but she'd keep an eyes on him. My only residual problem is that he wouldn't acknowledge that it's not good practice to put someone into a submissive head space without prior negotiation and consent, on any sim in sl. Will he

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell:  take a Xaara sub off sim and do the same thing?  Should I be warning other Xaara subs about him? He's here all the time now, dancing and sitting with subs. Should I IM them and warn them or trust that he'll behave himself? Are my unjustly accusing him of something that’s as much my responsibility? Now that I know him, I don't think he'd maliciously hurt a Xaara sub but I just felt it was wrong to put me in a position to back out a head space I didn't agree to ahead of time.

[09:09] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Sorry for the length

[09:11] Abriel Stargazer: Unfortunately there isn't anything you can do about it CC. Any sub you IM to try to warn is going to see you as a jealous ex who just can't stand to see him with another sub, and he can easily paint you warning everyone as you slandering him and he can get you in trouble.  So...it sucks but all you can do is confide in a few people so they can keep an eye on things and be supportive if he ;pulls the same stuff on another sub #

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I think informing the Dominants is the best bet there, CC.

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: We aren't supposed to be policing things ourselves

[09:12] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I informed Miss Nej

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Right, which was your best bet there IMO

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: and it is a tough call.  A lot of people that are abusers don't see themselves as "an abuser," in fact all but the most sociopathic just see themselves as quite normal

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Much how rapists don't self-identify as "rapist" in all but the most insidiously sociopathic and demented

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: But a lot of people are just ...well...ignorant...of how to do things right.  That's why we push education here

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: So very good points CC, thanks!

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: ok we go to Sir Roman to finish up, who has His own comment and then will read Kitten's who had to leave

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: You have the floor Sir

[09:16] Roman Huntsman opens the note, "I'll read Kitten's first if you don't mind."

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Of course!

[09:16] Roman Huntsman: From Kitten: i think i would find it very hard to ignore abusive behavior but i do agree that what i might see as abusive is someone else's kink so it pays to be careful so as not to offend. So i think if i saw something i would message the person affected to see if they were fine but also try to get to know them better so i could understand better whether it is something where i should be advising them to think about what was happening or speaking to someone else about it. But i do know how easy it is to get trapped in a relationship that could be termed abusive, not of course that i am now  ...i was locked up and then abandoned for 2 months with various excuses being offered to why the domme wasn't there

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Yep...that's a familiar story sadly :/

[09:17] Roman Huntsman: It is, unfortunately, a Dom/me should know their limits on time invested.

[09:17] Roman Huntsman: As for mine....

[09:17] Roman Huntsman: Absolutely it's worth trying [to reach out to someone you are concerned for.]  It's hard to watch someone you love go down that path, but even as strangers we're bound to each other in this life to look out for each other.  They may already kind of know, and are hoping for a change, which will be the case more often than not.  They may not know.  They may deny it to your face either way, but I do feel like we're absolutely bound to try.  At least once, and if that doesn't work, leave resources with them so they might reach out someday and seek a solution.  It may not be our business to get heavily invested in someone else's life choices, but it is our business as fellow human beings to check on someone, offer guideposts, and hope for the best.  ----  Also Abriel is right in regards to your comment's CC but as to that, people do make mistakes, we're all learning, all on the journey of learning always.  A lot can be said by a person's character by how they handle those mistakes - with grace and humility is

[09:17] Roman Huntsman:  ideal, of course. Being watchful of that is just as important.  #

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: All so well said, Sir!

[09:19] Roman Huntsman: Thank you, Vanni.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Sometimes it's just the "Are you OK?" that gives that person the moment of clarity they need...they are waiting for that one person to reach out

[09:19] Becky Summerland: so true

[09:20] Brianne: That is the biggest 'take-away' I get form today's discussion.

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: I've had that happen to me several times as an instructor....students come to my office, I ask if they're ok, and then I have to almost carry them to the heath office in tears

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Because they just need that one person to reach out

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for all that Sir.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for this important and fabulous discussion!  I will edit and put the transcript up on the blog and announce when it is ready.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: And please remember to drop some linden love in the tip jar on the bar to keep our smexy home going

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: And to quote a great movie..."Be excellent to each other...and party on, dudes!"