"Managing Expectations" -- July 31, 2022

[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

 

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:13] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): C  I will need to leave at 9am for another meeting, thank you #

 

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

 

[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last week we had a discussion of "training"

 

[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And the general consensus was that the word "training" was considered less acceptable than "negotiation" and coming to consensus in the relationship

  

[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But a follow up that came up near the end was "expectations"

 

[15:15] Stephen Xootfly (Stephen Xootfly): Not called overriders for nothing

 

[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Each party in any relationship, from zero formality to ultra-formal comes in with some level of expectation

 

[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even if these expectations are not clearly articulated

 

[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): for example, in a business relationship, each party will spell out exactly what they expect in such a set of dealings

 

[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they will be clearly articulated

 

[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and then put in a contract that can be enforced by law

 

[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or at least one party may need to go to court to force change

 

[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (Think the Elon Musk/Twitter deal going on now)

 

[15:17] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): nods

 

[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On the other hand, in a loving vanilla relationship, say leading to marriage, most people don't have "planning sessions" and lay out expectations of the other before they get married

 

[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact, when we talk about pre-nups in class, most students think them horrendous, why would you want to create a contract with someone you love?

 

[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Shouldn't you just trust them to do right?

 

[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha ha ha...HA HA HA

 

[15:19] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Ask Paul McCartney :)

 

[15:19] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): Lol

 

[15:19] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): shakes her head.

 

[15:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

 

[15:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

 

[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excuse the wicked laugh

 

[15:19] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): lol

 

[15:19] Stephen Xootfly (Stephen Xootfly): Ha ha ha

  

[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the question today kind of flows from last week's discussion

 

[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What expectations should Dom s and subs have concerning each other?

 

[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it proper for a sub to say "I will do X and Y but you have to do A and B?" at least during the negotiation phase?

 

[15:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some Dom s in SL have stuff in their profiles like "Subs are meant to please me.  Do not come to me with your expectations.  You are here to amuse me." or something like that

 

[15:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And some sub types feel ANY negotiation is "topping from the bottom."

  

[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So as D/s is more of a formal thing than romantic, vanilla relationship, how do expectations of both parties jive with it?  Should we have any?  Do we just "go with the flow?"

 

[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's see what you A/all lthink!

 

[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master Ballard, You are up first!

 

[15:23] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Vanni Said:

 

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On the other hand, in a loving vanilla relationship, say leading to marriage, most people don't have "planning sessions" and lay out expectations of the other before they get married

Actually in any relationship, that is the ONLY way to make it work.  My wife is a submissive tradwife and so perhaps we cannot claim true vanilla status.  But before we got married I made sure that we both laid out our wants, needs, and expectations.  We have been together for 35 years, so it seems to be working.

Of course the same applies to any D/s, vanilla, gay, business working or any other relationship.  Expectations must be made clear, or people go astray.

#

 

[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Master!

 

[15:25] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Congrats to you and your wife!

 

[15:25] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): C

 

[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What I meant was, in general, people don't sit in a formal meeting and lay out expectations, at least usually, when they are in love.  But they should IMO.

 

[15:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): They damn well should

 

[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Love conquers all" right?  HA HA HA HA HA (excuse the second evil laugh please)

 

[15:25] Aoife McGregor (Aoife McGregor): :P

 

[15:25] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): that is always the first thing Master Ballard wants from a new sub and renewed by us old subs is a wants and needs card

 

[15:26] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): evil laugh excused

 

[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): grins

 

[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thank You Master!

 

[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Sir Lngo please!

 

[15:26] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): This is an intresting topic - I think expectations desires wants needs - we are all so different - really comes back to compatibility. Sylvie and I really are highly compatible in all we do.  There is very little negotiation now - lots of communication and expression of wants and desires.

 

The ability to communicate with trust seems to be hugely important.  It takes more than just love. 

 

# 

[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've been doing this for years, Sir, and I think "communication" is the word we have used the most in any of these discussions.

 

[15:29] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): communication is the glue that holds any relationship together..when it gets old and dried up, it falls apart

 

[15:29] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): nods

 

[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think over time such talk is the way we do negotiation, as we connect deeper with each other so having a "formal session" is less than just the dynamics of day to day talk over things

 

[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Amen Peaches

 

[15:30] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): C@Lngo

 

[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Go ahead please Master RB

 

[15:32] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): The terms Lngo lists are, to me, not really equivalent, and the one that stands out to me is "expectations", which focuses on the 'other' and not the 'self'.#

 

[15:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods "understood Master.  I think "expectations" are a two way street.  I have them, but the other has to express them."

 

[15:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think anyway

 

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Sir Lngo and Master RB!

 

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we have a lot to go through so let's move on

 

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aoife you are up please

 

[15:34] Aoife McGregor (Aoife McGregor): Thank you Vanni. I think its important to at least state the basics of one's expectations before committing to a dynamic. Things like availability, needs/wants, kinks, married or single - any of these things can be a deal breaker. And its better to know that upfront, so both people can make an informed decision. A month in only to find out your loving slave is married with two kids, when you were expecting a SL to RL transition really sucks. But in an ideal world, we are going to take our time talking about expectations, among other things before a collar#

 

[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!

 

[15:35] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement with Aoife.

 

[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a difference between some fun playtime and a real relationship

 

[15:35] Aoife McGregor (Aoife McGregor): nods ndos

 

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And anything that can affect the other needs to be dealt with

 

[15:36] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): nods

 

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if a person isn't comfortable with certain questions, no harm, that just means those two people aren't compatible

 

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it goes back to what Master Ballard said at the beginning

 

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point, thanks Aoife!

 

[15:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go on to Sir Cary please

 

[15:37] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): I had a boss who had a "business relationship" with his wife that lasts to this day, 40 plus years later, with children, winks*.  Personally a sub may Ask anything... but it will be negotiated in one way or another...  and not  "tit for tat either"  #

 

[15:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sir, may I ask how You mean "not tit for tat?"

 

[15:38] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): listened attentively, curious herself

 

[15:38] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): I'll do this for that.. kiind of thing.. mutuallity is key.. in the perspective that has been discussed

 

[15:40] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): ( also a pun ) #

 

[15:41] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ah, understood Sir.

 

[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it depends on the two (or more)...some D/s connectoins are as you mentioned, more of they service each others' needs, and some are more romantic.  I thinik it all just depends, and people go with what works for T/them

 

[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sir! :)

 

[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's move on to Master Abraham please!

 

[15:42] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): Some of you came from Gor and know that a fw and fm draw up a contract and even slaves and masters thought not as common. So this may not be a foreign concept. I lay our my expectations as I begin to formally court a woman in Sl . And with dee I gave her a contract that we went over line by line and discussed in voice. And every  six months I check to see if it needs to be revised. But everything is discussed and was before I collard her including her status as first girl and what that would look like. But a lot of discussion on what we both need and want as a couple#

 

[15:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): applauds!

 

[15:43] Dee Wolfe-Jacobson (Diana Wolfe): smiles

 

[15:43] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): well said Abraham

 

[15:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some might balk at the idea of a contract.  I think it's a great idea, especially an open one that can be revised over time

 

[15:44] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): nods

 

[15:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have what I call a "living syllabus" I give to students, understanding that what it says is open to interprtation, in their favor, but OKed by me

 

[15:45] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

 

[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I think that's very healthy, Master Abraham

 

[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank Youy!

 

[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's move to my smexy twinsie next to me

 

[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Go ahead Blondie

 

[15:45] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Thank you, smexy twinsie!

 

[15:46] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Negotiation is hard for me, and, as I've mentioned before, my Mistress is working on me to avoid passivity.  However, it's in my nature not to presume too much, or narrow her options, but I do KNOW that I mustn't be utterly passive, that I MUST make sure that all of my views, as well as hers, are out in the open.  She's honest with me, and by reciprocating, I'm honoring her AND our dynamic AND me.   And when I am fully open about my needs, wants, desires, expectations, I always end up feeling very good, and always see results that make us BOTH happy.  (She's a very encouraging Domme)  New ideas crop up, roadblocks are cleared, tension is released, etc.  So it's worth that moment of awkwardness to get things clear.  Even if it does make me sweat a little!  Yikes!  (This one of the reasons why being a submissive has been personally good for me.  I think I need this sort of training.)  #

 

[15:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): YES!

 

[15:46] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

 

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): would throw my arms around Brianne and smooch her but...well....

 

[15:47] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): DO IT!!!!!

 

[15:47] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): boobie bumps Vanni !

 

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can't Master!

 

[15:47] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): (blushes)

 

[15:47] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

 

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): kisses her cheek instead

 

[15:47] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): giggles.

 

[15:47] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): can we watch

 

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[15:47] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): blast

 

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's not THAT kind of Brianne and Vanni show, Master :P

 

[15:47] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): oh, Vanni, I think we have a spin-off ready

 

[15:48] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): rim-shot!

 

[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol yes

 

[15:48] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): smiles broadly at Sir RB

 

[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But 100% agreed there....that's what we call in sociology "communicative action," actions and things done informed by clear discourse

 

[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Society works best when we do that

 

[15:49] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods, "sound smarter that way"

 

[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And any relationship

 

[15:49] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): it leaves little room for misunderstanding

 

[15:49] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods

 

[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I love how you say that in your relationship with Miss Katie, the more you open up to your wants and needs, the deeper the connection is

 

[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): "we don't make a home for Mr.  Cock-up"  that way

 

[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): has Mr. Cock-Up tied up in my closet

 

[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): that is such a good insight, Vanni

 

[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh wait, TMI

 

[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

 

[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly Peaches!

 

[15:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Blondie, thank you!

 

[15:51] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): welc!

 

[15:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Callie you are up please!

 

[15:51] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): Thank you Vanni.

 

[15:51] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): As a perfectionist, clear expectations are extremely important to me. When in the submissive headspace, I want to be the most pleasing subbie possible. I need to know what is expected of me in order to do that, and to go above and beyond as I tend to. When in the Domme headspace, I want to set clear expectations so that I am not disappointed. How can someone know what behavior I want from them if I don't tell them precisely what is expected? #

 

[15:51] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Brilliant!

 

[15:52] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Exactamundo!"

 

[15:54] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think also that subs and even slaves can and should have clear expectations from their Dominant/owner.  Not in a 'quid pro quo' way, as Sir Cary pointed out, but certainly a sub should expect that their Other will do what they say they will.  Energy has to be exchanged to keep a relationship happy and moving

 

[15:54] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees :)

 

[15:54] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A usual saying around here is "subs aren't doormats"

 

[15:55] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement. "I have experienced quite a bit of hurt due to uncommunicated or unclear expectations."

 

[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods

 

[15:55] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): Nods!

 

[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): at the same time, the sub/slave can't just start dictating terms, that is the real "Topping from the Bottom"

 

[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thank you Callie!

 

[15:56] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles at Vanni.

 

[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to *Sylvie* (not Sophie as I said last week lol)

 

[15:56] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you Vanni..smiles

 

[15:57] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): When I returned to SL, I certainly did not expect to meet a Master as wonderful as my Master Lngo. I wanted a good Master, who accepts a mono relation and wants to establish a good connection. Master Lngo is by far the best man I have met. We talked a lot about our expectations, our needs. We also have a contract. I've been wearing his collar for almost a year now (August 24) SL. I believe that indeed, communication is what matters most to us. Expectations evolve and change over time. To maintain a solid and harmonious relationship, it is essential to be clear and to talk about our expectations. Yes, this is done on a daily basis, but also during contract revisions. Aren't expectations there only to "serve" a purpose? Everyone's happiness within the relationship! Thank you Master Lngo for being who you are with me. It takes great skill to be open and transparent in our exchanges, regardless of the aspect of our relationship.#

 

[15:57] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

 

[15:58] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): mm kisses Sylvie on the head

 

[15:58] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Yay!   Love the use of "harmonious".  that's a key factor.

 

[15:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOVE IT!

 

[15:58] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): nods!! yes

 

[15:58] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): nods and sends a smile to Sylvie

 

[15:58] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you

 

[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have no comment other than *well said!*

 

[15:59] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): that pretty well sums it up Sylvie! thanks!

 

[15:59] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): blushes..

 

[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Rebeccah...uh...Sylvie :P

 

 

[15:59] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Giggles

 

[15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Take care Sir!

 

[15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ

 

[15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ

 

[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you!  Try the fish!

 

[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent comments!

 

[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seroiusly thanks Sylvie!

 

[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia, you are up please!

 

[16:01] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): We tend to be much wiser about expectations and not jumping into the pool so swiftly, when we are....older and more seasoned in our reasoning of expectations vs reality.

IF we knew then, what we know now, our earlier relationships in RL or SL might have been quite different, but as i have always said...Love, makes one Deaf, Dumb, Blind and Stupid.

 

I myself have suffered from that affliction, but with the right partner RL/SL,....discussing and negotiation...and HONESTY...can abate some of the expectation vs reality. For SL i personally believe that one of the biggest issues of expectation vs reality....is moving to RL. Getting involved with someone whom is clear that there will be NO RL at all, while your hope is for RL, or you expect some aspect of RL to be part of the relationship...is a disaster because your expectations are not going to be met with reality in a positive way.

 

Sir Davos and i, first thing, RL boundaries were discussed...i mean within a couple of weeks of us meeting. So, it was clear,

 

[16:01] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident):  and we both respected that boundary. Yes it has been revisited over the years, and some aspects have opened. but still the agreement is, and remains, NO RL, because neither of us was looking for RL. We support fully each others RL marriages, and our RL partners fully support our SL marriage. negotiation, discussion, talking, honestly....will work in the end

 

[16:01] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

 

[16:02] Stevie McGregor (StevieBlue Resident): smiles

 

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1000000% agreed

 

[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And it goes back to what Aoife said at the beginning -- be up front about what one expects, and what one can or is willing to give, makes it much more lasting

 

[16:03] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Wonderful Hestia!

 

[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I throw something on someone six months in that was never talked about, how is that fair to the other?

 

[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And all that is going to do is tear things apart

 

[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I also like how you said that things can be revised over time.  Humans are dynamic, not statues.  We have to have the ability to change up

 

[16:05] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): C

 

[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's why I reject the idea that "a slave negotiates once but never again."  That's great if one has a love doll, but that's a human.  Of course, a slave is totally at the will of their owner, but a good owner listens to concerns and adjusts accordingly.  Lost of trust there, which acn only be tempered by communcation

 

[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thanks so much Hestia!  Nail on the head!

 

[16:06] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): "a happy slave is an obedient slave"

 

[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly!

 

[16:07] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!

 

[16:07] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to Sylvie please!

 

[16:09] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I wanted to say a big thank you to Hestia for "light" about RL expectations. We all know some of us have this dream. Life can give us bumps and show us that is the real leader. And that is important to keep in mind that and be realistic about RL expectations

 

[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Indeed

 

[16:09] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): winks at Syvlie :)

 

[16:09] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Pout coz Doc say no for travel....Life decide!

 

[16:10] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Done

 

[16:10] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Gives Sylvie a hug

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): maybe one day Sylvie!

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and I love what you said!

 

[16:10] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I trust the life Vanni

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for that

 

[16:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to Callie please!

 

[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): One thing that Vanni just said, about waiting six months to say something, brings me back to something I read about the difference between honesty and transparency.

 

[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I read this in someone's profile and it always stuck with me.

 

[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): "In my life, I have found that there is a line for many people when it comes to being honest. That line? If you don’t ask the question, it is not dishonest if they did not tell you. Well, that doesn’t work for me. I am not honest, I am transparent. I tell the people who matter, the ones who have earned the rights to information about my life, all relevant facts. Not because they ask, but because they need to know. That is the difference between honesty and transparency. I lay all my cards on the table, give you my truth and let you decide for yourself if you want to be part of my story with the things you know. Because anything less, is deception by omission and people deserve better than that. 

Give me transparency or just don’t waste my time and energy."

 

[16:13] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): That's a keeper.

 

[16:13] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): sweet

 

[16:13] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I have always been the transparent type, and ask for transparency in return. All expectations, FL and SL, should be discussed, in my opinion. Expectations are expectations #

 

[16:14] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): cheers for Callie

 

[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with a lot of that, but I think there is "need to know" vs "not".  And it's up to each person and relationship to figure out what that line is

 

[16:14] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles to Sir RB.

 

[16:14] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): I agree, Vanni.

 

[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As long as people are honest about "I need to know these things" that's great.

 

[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not handing someone my curriculum vitae with all my info lol

 

[16:15] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I absolutely agree Vanni. And the expectation that FL is a no go is a valid expectation. Just say so upfront.

 

[16:15] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): also awards extra points to Callie for using "FL".  Wishes that would trend.

 

[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): clear, communicative action!

 

[16:16] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles at Brianne. "I am trying. Master and I tell people that we use FL, because the feelings are all real, FL and SL."

 

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is why any negotiation that is moving forward from simple playtime to more should start with "here is what I expect and want to know'

 

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if compatibility is an issue it can stop there and much less hurt

 

[16:16] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): couldnt agree more callie

 

[16:16] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): nods to Vanni

 

[16:16] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): totally

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thanks Callie!

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to hestia for today's final comment

 

[16:17] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): I get transparency, but i have met far too many whom use it as a stage to be brutally blunt, and hurtful, rather than simply stating the point in a respectful manner, with some form of diplomacy... with the following comment about "just being transparent"....no...you are using that as a catch phrase to be nasty. So its a matter of how one employs the concept of transparency #

 

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right everything needs to be tempered

 

[16:17] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement with Hestia.

 

[16:17] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): So true, Hestia.

 

[16:18] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): words wound

 

[16:18] Stevie McGregor (StevieBlue Resident): nods

 

[16:18] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): Exactly Peaches!!!!

 

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Being honest isn't a euphanism for being an asshole

 

[16:18] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): or cruel

 

[16:18] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): i prominse not to be honest does that help

 

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:18] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

 

[16:18] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you!

 

[16:18] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): laughs and shakes her head

 

[16:18] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): giggles

 

[16:18] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): What you say and the actions to follow is how people get hurt feeling and emotional.

 

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Hestia!

 

[16:18] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): #

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes

 

[16:19] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): if its in my head, i can garentue it will leave my lips

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sometimes we have to be utterly truthful, but it doesn't have to be used as a knife to the chest either

 

[16:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Peaches, ready to throw your head back and laugh?

 

[16:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ

 

[16:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ

 

[16:19] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): yes, sugar

 

[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So best to have those discussions up front

 

[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Hestia!

 

[16:20] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ

 

[16:20]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Thank you for attending this discussion.

 

[16:20]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): The tracker is now off and the floor is open to everyone.

 

[16:20] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I have to watch what I say and how I act before I say it.

 

[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we all do!

 

[16:20] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods nods!

 

[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I told some of my students what I think about their papers I'd be having a chat with the VP of Instruction

 

[16:20] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): What a wonderful discussion today!!!

 

[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so instead I give them nice, constrticismuctive cri

 

[16:21] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): wonderful indeed! now ..time to go check the chickens for eggs!!!

 

[16:21] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Yes, Sylvie!

 

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good god

 

[16:21] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): forgive me for leaving. Had my IT man come and work on my computer.

 

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you A/all!

 

 

"Training" -- July 24, 2022

[15:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[15:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[15:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[15:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[15:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we go to an interesting topic:  training.

[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sounds like we're getting ready for the Westminster Dog Show lol

[15:13] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): puts up her hand. "Has been to Westminster!!"

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In D/s relationships, as the Dom and the sub are connecting and getting to know one another, there is usually some kind of training that goes on.

[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One will often hear that a Dominant is training their sub.

[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or the sub will say they are undergoing or have completed 'training.'

[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the topic for today has a few questions:

[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1) Why is such training necessary?  Do you have to retrain if you change to a different Dominant?

[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 2) How is this training done?  What are the methods of training?  What are the desired ends?

[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 3) How does one know the training is done?  Or does it really "end" in a final sense?  Is it in some way ongoing?

[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (Vanni the sociologist thinks it probably is ongoing but she will be interested to see what O/others think)

[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's see how this plays out!

[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rouge has been unable to fully contribute the past couple weeks due to her interwebz connection, so I'm expecting at least -- at least-- "Brothers Karamazov" level here! ;)

[15:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): smirks

[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Go ahead! :)

[15:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): Thanks Vanni,

[15:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): 

now im sure W/we will all have a different view on this, but way I see it, and for me as an individual, training isn't just for the s-type.

like any relationship, both parties need to learn one another, learn what makes them tick, their good points and bad. even things they feel uncomfortable about, be it in a vanilla setting or a D/s, M/s setting

so, looking at it from this perspective, yes, the s-type may be new to the life, so needs to learn as much as possible, not just about any potential Owner, but also about the lifestyle, and more importantly, about themselves.

same can be said for any new D-types to the life.

even if both parties are experienced, albeit, maybe not to the same degree as each other, but have had time in the lifestyle, they still need to learn, to *train* in order for it all to work out. no point one party putting in all the effort, and the other just sits back, reaping the rewards, and giving nothing back. that's a sure sign to have it falling on its arse.

[08:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: 

then there are those who just click. I can honestly say, that sure, there was a small bit of learning both my Owners here, as well as in real life, but for the most part, it just felt natural, and things fell into place automatically.

that said, like the saying goes " every day is a school day" no one ever knows it all, and if they claim to, then they're setting themselves up fro a massive fall, as well the chance of making a fool of not just themselves, but those they are connected with. #

[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I like that Rouge!

[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not sure a D-type would use the term "training" for themselves, but it certain is necessary that both sides learn the other.

[15:21] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I prefer "Learning"

[15:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed, Master

[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "training" certainly suggests impressing a set of behaviors on the other, while "learning" is knowing the other, what behaviors are wanted or unwanted, and how to get the other to do the will of the D-type

[15:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): way I see it, a D-type can't really be in a position to Own anyone if they arent prepared to learn themselves. to Master another, one needs to be able to Master ones self

[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes!

[15:22] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Truth

[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's true to anyone!

[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): γνῶθι σαυτόν -- "Know Thyself."  Delphic maxim

[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First thing in my profile

[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A friend of mine that isn't in SL anymore had a cool line in her profile:

[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "I came not to conquer the world and enrich myself, but to conquer myself and enrich the world."

[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I always liked that

[15:24] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Nice

[15:24] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[15:24] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): thats a good one

[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Rouge! :)

[15:25] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): welcome!

[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Master Ballard please, keepin' it in the family so to speak! ;)

[15:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Related to the initial training you mention:

Training.  I train dogs, and we train children.  Training means teaching an unknown skill set.  I feel that in a relationship between adults to characterize it as 'training' is pretentious.  This comes mostly from my years in Gor where submissives are trained endlessly on things they already  know, by dominants that are utterly clueless as to how to dominate.  Is a 1,000 word serve really that important? 

We are all learning, everyday.  The effort to learn must be universal for both D and s.  If I demand a skill, then yes, I may train my girl to do that one action.  The main effort is on how we live together, how we get along, how we can function harmoniously in a community such as Xaara. 

Rather than training - what we need, and most of us do, is mutually learning each other's needs and wants.  I do have rules and desires.  I do teach my submissives what I expect as a member of our household.  But I find it hard to characterize that as training.  Yes, this is

[08:25] Ballard:  a  life process.  A successful relationship must be one of daily learning.

[15:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska):  a  life process.  A successful relationship must be one of daily learning.

[15:26] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): WELL SAID

[15:26] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[15:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said Master!

[15:27] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I think y'all just liked how I dissed Gorean Masters!

[15:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm an instructor but I wouldn't call what I do for a living "training," it's teaching

[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree, Master, that training involves getting a specific skill set for a specific task, like when we got new curriculum software and we had to be :trained" on how to use it

[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Unfortunately no ball gags or spankings were involved in said training....

[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But the software was painful enough...

[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And referring Gorean Training was interesting...we'll see if O/others do the same :)

[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Master Ballard!

[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Hestia please!

[15:30] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): My feeling is "training" is simply a catch phrase that the community has picked up and used to encompass many things. IMO, what it really is ...is negotiation, discussion. defining boundaries, limits, wants vs needs, etc. Working thro these..and then moving on with the relationship. and when a stumbling block is encountered, you go back to negotiation, discussion, definitions again. you find what works, or what you can compromise on. Its just like any other relationship, or one would hope this is how relationships should work outside of this community HOWEVER....we all know that is not the case. So if the use of the word "Training" makes both parties, and it does take TWO to discuss, negotiate, and define, stop and do those things, then this is a positive.

[15:31] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): another great comment

[15:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good!

[15:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Question for you Hestia as a follow up:

[15:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree 100% with what you said as far as how things work and how they should work

[15:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But do you think that this could also apply to vanilla relationships?  Is there some kind of "training" or impressment of will that goes beyond all the important items you said here?

[15:35] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): IF one supposed to my definition of what "Training" means, then every relationship....whether is is vanilla or BDSM, or working with your dog....all those things have to apply...IMO. there has to be a meeting of wills, minds and egos. NO..this does not always happen. Should it always happen? YES. but we live in a human world where none of us is perfect. But as for your question, to the heart of it. I believe the very structure of teh D/s relationship GIVES credit to that...negotiation...as a vital part of what will be.

[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed 100%

[15:35] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The Dom and the sub agree where the control will be.  And if there are changes, that's more negotiation.

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks! :)  Great comments!

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): WE move to Kaneha please!

[15:36] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): I only have experience of one Dominant, and my 'training' was more learning my Mistress's preferences, likes and dislikes, and following her rules. Learning definitely continues, because I know my limits have changed in the time I have been with her, which means we both have new cues to learn from each other as our relationship deepens and strengthens. Taking the time to learn each other means that we have very, very few issues, and our bond is incredibly strong as a result. But if she and I ever parted ways *shudders at even the thought of that*, then I would expect to have to start all over again if I was fortunate enough to find someone else willing to accept me as Theirs. I completely agree with everything which has been said so far about knowing oneself, because I am constantly learning new things about myself and my submission, and that's entirely down to the environment Mistress provides for me so I have the boundaries and structure in place to feel safe while I explore with her. It is definitely a

[15:36] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria):  two-way thing - we can't learn and progress without each other's input. #

[15:37] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): OO i like that statement!

[15:37] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): smiles at Hestia

[15:37] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[15:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, well said :)

[15:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have a term at the college for returning students, those that come long after 'graduation age' -- 'Lifelong Learners'

[15:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think we are all that no matter where we are and what the social situations may be

[15:38] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): nods in agreement

[15:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said Kaneha!

[15:39] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): Thank you, Vanni ♥

[15:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

[15:40] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to la belle jeune fille, Sylvie please

[15:41] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you Vanni

[15:41] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I'm not sure I understand the concept of "training"? Requirements of my Master, Protocol to be observed at home and during outings....But "training"? Shouldn't a D/s relationship, like any other relationship, develop naturally? Of course, Master has certain rules and I must obey. I try to remember my beginnings in the lifestyle. I have no memories of being trained like a little dog. (Other than having to learn how to make a decent RLV folder for my first Master on SL). My relationship with Master Lngo has developed through discussions and negotiations. Trust was established and everything went as naturally as possible! Devotion, obedience and infinite love for my Master. But...Negociation too.

[15:41] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Training? I train my animals to behave properly. And there's no bargaining there! Done

[15:42] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): gives Sylvie a hug

[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well my cats are still training me, and they still seem very unhappy with their selected "office staff' let me tell you

[15:42] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): giggles

[15:43] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): Cats are impossible to please

[15:43] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): laughs

[15:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol so true 

[15:43] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Passes Catnip around the room

[15:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I hear a common thread so far in replies -- "training" is a less preferred word to "negotiation" and mutual connection

[15:44] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Training is not a part of our language in our relationship

[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nor should it be as that is how Y/you both see things! :)

[15:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And to be honest, in 10+ years in the BDSM community in First Life, this isn't something used much there either, at least to my experience

[15:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But of course, most of that is S/M play that's fairly casual, after some negotiation on a scene

[15:46] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I know few Doms who train their girls like animals..but I also know these girls been unhappy and asked for realease.

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is pony training, but that's a desire in both the pony and the trainer

[15:48] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Training is a kink in its' own right

[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sylvie!

[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Sir Islador please!

[15:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok then, we move on to CC please

[15:51] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): I have learned from the beginning in D/s, that it's important to pace yourself, do all the exploration of wants and needs, then the training and then after while, you make the relationship formal as you call your Dom Master, Mistress or whatever their chosen honorific.

That said, with my present Domme, Zati, we broke all these rules and fell into a natural rhythm and pattern of complimentary behaviors so that by the end of our first week, I was comfortable enough to call her Mistress and we've been together since. We have been together over 1 and half years. We are are now closer than ever. Perhaps I should warn people not to try this at home. You know the Shtick, "we are trained professionals." lol

But then, when you talk about training, it sometimes implies pop behaviorism, as in training circus animals, not humans,  which I have an overly stated antipathy for, here in Xaara discussions. But then some subs like to be "pets" which is fine.

[15:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm very happy that has worked for Miss Zati and you CC :)

[15:53] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): thank you

[15:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As we know, SL moves at hyperspeed, and often people will rush into things minus really connecting.

[15:54] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): I agree

[15:54] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): Zati and I had a freakishly natural bonding that happened fast

[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't think in general people that use the term "training" really mean it like they're a seal learning to play horns or what have you :P I think it's more learning the will of the Dominant and becoming what they want.

[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOTS of subs in SL have something in their profile like "I am owned body and soulby XXX, and Their will is my will"

[15:56] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): yes but then we do hear doms talking about extrinsic reward.

[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nofs

[15:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said CC thanks for the comment :)

[15:57] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): Thank you  Vanni

[15:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Master Ballard please

[15:57] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I want to state the obvious, what we have not explicitly said:  Training cannot bring about compatibility. We Svenskas  are an open household, and each of us is free to explore other people so we may enjoy, grow, and expand our horizons.

[15:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So true Master!~

[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do a chapter on Marriage and Family in Intro to Sociology, and I tell my students "Look, that wedding ring is NOT the One Ring of Power.  It doesn't make anyone into anything else.  So when you put on that other person, you be damn sure that's the person you want for the rest of your life, because they're almost certainly not changing from that point on."

[15:59] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Exactly.  DO NOT try to fix me.

[16:00] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): (Refrains from fixing Ballard)

[16:00] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees :)

[16:00] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): well, we don't change our nature, but we still have to evolve and be on the same step of the stairs

[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh certainly

[16:01] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but if people just spent a year dating and a year engaged (or whatever time frame) and they still think 'I can make this person better' they're fooling themselves

[16:01] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): concession, negotiation, trust...that is far from "training" lol

[16:01] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I agree Vanni.

[16:02] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Even if I feel that I am a better person since I met Master Lngo

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You grow together :")

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which is healthy

[16:02] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): agreed

[16:02] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): exactly :)

 [16:02] Daelenie McMillan (Daelenie McMillan): only you can make yourself better, though He is the inspiration for it.

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes Dae!

[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Taking on a 'project person' in any sense of the word is simply a recipe for disaster

[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent, thank You Master Ballard!

[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Sir Lngo please!

[16:03] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Many of us commenting have been in the lifestyle for some time.  But, when someone is brand new., either Dominant or Submissive, there is a degree of training... or teaching.  Especially in accepting the concepts of power exchange D/s, and in the kinky tastes of S/m.  For a Dom or Sub working with someone new..... there is a degree of training.. or teaching... as one explores and becomes knowledgable e to the wonders of BDSM.

[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Sir!

[16:04] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[16:04] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): nods in agreement, a little smile curving her lips

[16:04] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): smiles softly

[16:05] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): When was the first time you enjoyed the rougher side of S/m  ?  example whipping or being whipped?

[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think Master Ballard's comment earlier about how 'training' involves learning a skill set dovetails nice with what You just said.

[16:05] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): mumbles..the first time the whip hit me..

[16:05] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Agreed - Ballard very nicely articulated some very good points.

[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): cues up "When the Whip Comes Down"

[16:05] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): thank you

[16:06] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): rimshopt ... cuz brianne isnt here

[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Mistress :)

[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yeah where is Blondie today

[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Probably getting whipped

[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[16:07] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): lol

[16:07] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thank You Sir!

[16:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So again, I think the general consensus here is that 'training' is a word that has some negative connotation.  "Learning and Growing Together" seems to be more the theme

[16:08] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): yes Vanni!

[16:08] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[16:09] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees :)

[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): However, people use different collars, in fact one is specifically referred to as a "training collar"....before a full collar is given out

[16:09] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement.

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So is there some expectation that the submissive will adhere and move to some level of desired behavior at each of these collars?

[16:11] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): training collar, erase training to put "teaching" or "learning"

[16:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master Laz often asks at this kind of discussion 'Where is the D/s?'  I guess that's what I'm asking as well.  Do we have specific expectations that are more...formal and rigid than what is done in the vanilla world?

[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): whispers an apology for leaving and walks out as quietly as possible.

[16:12] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I go for formal, not rigid Vanni

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think we'll continue this next week with a talk on "expectations'

[16:14] Ele Weymann (Elenie GossipGirl): Thank you A/all for your interesting points of view