"Motivation" -- June 6, 2021

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: OK, so welcome back from our week off, we are raring to go!  And yes, we are now, at Master Ballard's suggestion, now slated at 90 minutes!

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Our topic today is inspired by CC, who made a comment about subs and motivation a couple weeks ago!

[08:18] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: OH my

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So today we talk about "motivation" and what makes people tick in this lifestyle.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: We spent the last couple months talking about the various forms of BDSM, and types of subs and Dominants, and various kinds of acts.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So today we discuss motivation...what makes people get into this lifestyle?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Why do Dominants like giving orders and being served?  Why do some if not most like smacking around willing subbies and bottoms and slaves with various implements of "horror?" (scare quotes intentional)

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: What gets bottoms and subs and slaves wanting that in the first place?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Why do some people like to serve, and others like to be served?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Is this a social reflection of biology?  Survival of the fittest?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Or, is there some deeper, maybe some Jungian kind of archetypes at play?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: A deep psychology that is being reflected?

[08:23] Brianne: please expound on that.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Archetypes, according to Jung, are deep, somewhat "spiritual" forms that exist in a collective consciousness.

[08:23] Sultry nods to Brianne...All of them.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So for example the "King" archetype, the man who leads and cares for his people.

[08:24] RB Quinn thinks he's more the playful Prince archetype

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: That can be expressed in many ways in men in different cultures, but it can be, in Jung's theory, reduced to some form of collective consciousness

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: (I'm hardly doing Jung justice here btw, a one minute explanation)

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Or is it some form of natural order as some believe, some are born to lead, and some are born to serve.  That was Aristotle's view in the Ethics.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: So what do Y/you think?

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: We'll start with Miss Desi please!

[08:30]  ღ Desi™ღ Beaumont: its not so much the prince or the king, its the psychology of the father and the child, The father or the Domininat protecter etc and the child or submissive  .   There are psycoclogical factors af behavioural psychology as well,  fight or flight , leader and follower, all in how we have all been socialised in the famility groupings and our instinctual processes as human animals and pack psychology and not so much spirituality, more the humanity or human animal at work  in groups in grup dynamics or singually or operating alone

[08:30]  ღ Desi™ღ Beaumont: i hope that sounds ok a bit muddled

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: No, it makes perfect sense, Miss Desi!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: So you see D/s and the kinds of things we do as forms of behavior that are visible in both animal and human society (as we are mammals after all).

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: We just do it in more complex ways.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: I was actually watching something on wolves not long ago, and wolf males will fight until one makes a signal of submission, then the fighting stops.

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And from that point on, the "winner" is the leader, but it's not so much winning as one accepting the dominance of the other.

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: So I can see a reflection there.

[08:33] Peaches Svenska: when we fight nature..life is much harder

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Of course, that leads back to "are D/s and BDSM some complex social formulation of what's encoded in our brains?"  hmmm

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Let's see what others think, thanks for that great start Miss Desi!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Miss Vivi please!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: *Vivvy sorry

[08:38] Vivvy: Im not really sure which part determines the dominate or submissive.. But as for me I grew up with no leadership kind of fend for yourself. I swore to be nothing like people in my house hold. Nothing like mother. I endured verbal and physical abuse. And then coming to SL i started to role play as a wolf.. I found how exciting it made me to release rage. Doing things and that is what opened the door to me being dominate or in Bdsm. Before I was just head of my house. I made the decisions and still do. So I think I would have had that leadership in me anyway just not the Bdsm side.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: In Sociology we talk about "Return to the Familiar," meaning we tend to go back to behaviors and practices that had the deepest impression on us.  That's why positive primary socialization in family is so important.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: So both positive and negative things can be manifest in us later in life, even if we try hard to avoid them.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Thus, it's not surprising Miss that you find yourself in the social position of Dominance today, not that you abuse people, but you returned to that familiar form in a more positive way.

[08:41] Vivvy: Right But what is normal and not many people teach how to socialize Oh what is the correct way to do things in Life in homes. At least I do not think they do.

[08:42] Vivvy: I do not think everyone has the same normal.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Jason please!

[08:43] Sir Jason Oi™: I think the answer to most of those questions is simply wiring. From early childhood I was interested in kink, whether having interrogation scenes with my GI Joes or watching I Dream of Jeanne reruns, it all seemed to make sense to me. Then my preteen and early teen years and while snooping through my parents room found their box of kink toys. To experimenting with another person at the age of 17, and then seeking out kink relationships. Kink and power exchange have always been a part of my life. I definitely am leaning more on the side of nature vs. nurture, but nurture can certainly be a big factor. #

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: I always talk about how it's not "nature vs nurture, " but really "nature AND nurture" in class

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: ok thank You Sir Jason!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Miss Becky please!

[08:48] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie!

[08:49] Becky Summerland: My motivations are quite simple... I need to care, guide, teach, mentor... Living all of this gives me an opportunity to help another go to the depth of their desires, to explore safely, knowing anytime they call for anything to stop, it will stop and we will explore the feelings that made it stop... The sum of that, and perhaps the biggest motivator is that I get to learn about myself, to answer questions I wouldn't be able to sitting alone on my sofa. Life is a highway, made of stops, slow lanes and fast lanes... I want them all, and as few crashes as possible ;p Still, the best feeling of all comes from helping, enhancing others lives as I got to do this week at a pony competition where I started to coach the last pony in line... she was having horrible times, she had a hard moment, pushing hard at every turn, yet, no improvement from tries to tries... I helped her cut her times by a 3rd and put a smile on her face... she finished 2nd to last, but, the real result, our mutual win, was how much we both

[08:49] Becky Summerland:  grew and the resulting mutual feeling of happiness, the connection we shared. I am so proud of her for not giving up, this, her reaction to my guidance, my offer of help, this is the reward to me as a dominant.#

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: What a nice story, Miss Becky!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: And so you manifest your inner drive to care and nurture for people in a way that's certainly kinky, but fits the bill.

[08:51] Sir Jason Oi™: Wonderful Becky! Love that comment.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: I like that!

[08:51] Becky Summerland: btw, my pony finished 3rd after having been 2nd for a long part of the competition ♥

[08:51] RB Quinn applauds Becky -- smiling because he sees himself in her description

[08:51] Becky Summerland: I am so very proud of her too

[08:52] Becky Summerland: I hope she reads this in the transcript ;p

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Very good story and speaks to motivation in a clear way, thanks Miss Becky!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go to Blondie!  You're up Brianne!

[08:54] Brianne: ok, here goes nothin'.  Please enjoy my word salad...

[08:54] Brianne: I keep coming back to the belief that every person serves others and themselves in pretty much similar proportions.  However, some people, like me, love to bring happiness but don't enjoy 'responsibilities'.  That's who I am, and with practice, I learn the truth of that more and more.  We all have different talents and if were lucky we have a social order that accommodates them all.  Xaara is such a place, or aspires to be.  'serving' used to be more fashionable than it seems to be now where everyone is supposed to be 'doing it all' but I think we lost something when we let humility become old-fashioned.  Dominants 'give' as well, but the difference in style is significant. Warp and weft together make the tapestry.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: You're so right!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I think of English gentried society, back in the good old days, where the concept of butler or lady in waiting were not seen as some kind of inferior or demeaning roles, but were noble and required

[08:56] Brianne: yes!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, families passed down those roles to subsequent generations

[08:56] Becky Summerland: but, I feel like roles in society were better defined than they are now

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: That's very true Miss

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Maybe we are the kinky heirs to that gentried lifestyle :P

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I mean we do call people "Sir" "Miss" "Master" "Mistress" etc

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: IN fact, I was just re-reading a James Bond book by Fleming recently

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: And I was impressed how James Bond *likes* being subservient to M, his superior at the Ministry.  He *likes* making M happy with his work.  But no one would call Bond a weak kneed fop of a fellow.

[09:00] Brianne: interesting!

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: (The book Bond is very different from the movie Bond)

[09:00] Becky Summerland: he knew his place in all things, there is a beauty in humility, when one doesn't abuse their position, no matter what it is

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[09:00] Brianne: yes!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Look what you did Brianne, you made us think! :P

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for the comment, well said.

[09:01] Sultry: C

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to CC who gave me the motivation to do this discussion topic!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please CC.

[09:02] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I think this discussion has moved away from the more focused points I made a few weeks ago.

I'm not a behaviorist but that said, I don't mind people using using behaviorist methods in D/s. It's part of the idea of power exchange.  So it's fine.

But as a motivator in general, the idea that we use rewards and punishments with people is very problematic. Most experiments into behaviorism are done on animals in cages who have been starved then rewarded with food to do something. The question is, does this generalize to people?

[09:02] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: People have much higher level of cognition than a starving rat in a cage. There is also a lot of evidence that much of how we think and behave is attributable to structures in the brain. Chomsky's research into linguistics is a good example of this. We are not the blank slates that John Locke and the behaviorist would have us believe. Our ability to create and use language is determined by structures in the brain, so is our ability bond and form relationships with others. What we have pre programmed into our brains provides intrinsic basis for motivation. This motivation can be shaped by environments conditions.  From here, we can get into what's called structural and post structural thought on how we construct our reality through language and how that influences our behaviors.

[09:02] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: My original comments were exploring the use of rewards, (external motivators) vs intrinsic motivators. Does a Dom need to reward their subs with statements such as, "good job!" or does the sub do it from an intrinsic love for their domme/dom? It feels good to be praised but then, doing things for the Dom to get that praise takes attention from the original reason a sub has to be in service to them. A person is more motivated to do something for the joy of it instead of doing it for an external reward,even if its praise.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: All good points, CC, and I've not thought, that at least in SL, that conditioning doesn't really apply.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Brianne, as you have a comment at CC's remarks

[09:05] Brianne: I've thought about that a LOT and I can't weigh one over the other.  I often get se;f satisfaction form my role, but hearing "good girl" puts me overt the moon too.  How could I choose between these?  I can't really, I shoot for both.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: CC is right though that we aren't really the pure "blank slate" that Locke talked about, waiting to be filled by society.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Rather we enter this world with a whole slate of pre-formed structures that will affect future outcomes

[09:07] Sir Jason Oi™: Society encompasses A LOT

[09:07] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: and ti think its ok to be happy with praise from your dom and refer to my opening statements

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: That said, what we experience has a LOT of effect on how neurological pathways in the brain are formed

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: so it's back to nature AND nurture

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: You made several really good points, CC, I always appreciate your knowledge and what you bring to this discussion.

[09:09] Becky Summerland: C @ CC

[09:09] Becky Summerland: CC, your comment brings me to wonder, I do have to admit I prefer someone who has at least a basic knowledge of who they are, what they want out of life, hence have goals and all the set of needs and wants that come with them... Anyone 'doing' only to please an exterior influence will eventually crumble as nothing they do is based on anything solid? So, I believe it would reside in a good balance between 'willingness and reward'?

[09:11] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Rewards tend to undermine intrinsic basis for motivation, the more you use them the more they are needed

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: All that matters is the reward, not the motivation.

[09:12] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: rewards even decrease the person's intrinsic enjoyment in doing something

[09:13] Sir Jason Oi™: Increase the rewardingness

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: But at the same time, humans are not biological automations.  We might do something we don't like to get a pleasant reward, but that doesn't mean we actually now *like* the unpleasant thing.

[09:13] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: reduced their enthusiasm and even degrades performance

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: I don't particularly like working lol...but the money reward is nice :P

[09:13] Sir Jason Oi™: Keep the rewards sparing?

[09:14] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: or not at all

[09:14] Jo Silverwing: Is it possible that as a relationships becomes more complex that the reward structure does as well.

[09:14] Peaches Svenska: agreed Vanni..I do not find CCs concept to be true in my experience..I am the same, whether i know there is a reward coming or not

[09:14] Brianne: rewards are feedback about the OTHER person's mental state so without it, there's no relationship.

[09:14] Vivvy: I find that hard. Because I do feel we have to give Us to our Submissive as they give to Us. May sound crazy.

[09:15] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I'm going on reading a lot of research

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: I think CC's point is that if the sub comes to expect a reward every time they "do good," then what they're doing is serving for the reward rather than from the heart.  Is that right, CC?

[09:15] Brianne nods in agreement with Miss Vivvy

[09:16] Becky Summerland: it is hard Vivvy, well, life can be in general, its a mix of what 80% water and many past experiences molding a multitude of reactions

[09:16] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Brianne, there is a difference between feedback and reward

[09:16] Brianne: in what way?

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: ok ok, we are going to get into a giant psychological discussion here :P

[09:16] Brianne: I think reward is a subtype of feedback

[09:17] Becky Summerland: I just got a memo, we could go to 120 minutes lol

[09:17] Brianne: so is punishment

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli blows the whistle TWEEEEET

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you CC, as usual your comments are interesting and provoke good discussion!

[09:17] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Feedback gives information, verble rewards are emotional rewards, such as praise.

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: ok Sir Jason please!

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: I think lol

[09:18] Sir Jason Oi™: Yes we Dominants serve as well. I'll use a car analogy...Your car "serves" you buy taking you all the places you need to go, to keep your car in top condition to be able to serve you you have to do proper and scheduled maintenance. Without serving the needs of your car, your car your car can't serve you and will eventually break down. To cc's question, some people talk to their cars and say things like "Good girl." It's all part of maintenance for those people. S-types please forgive me for referring to you as cars, but driver starts with "D" for Dominant and it's fun to make the tires of a car squeal.#

[09:20] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: But Sir jason, maintenance in the context of of power exchange, which is different than more general situations in some respects by you can even over do it inD/s

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: That's a good point Sir about the dynamic relationship

[09:21] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Which is what I talked about above. I you apply the same principles raising children or as a boss in the workplace, you then get into trouble

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sir Jason!

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you've been waiting a while, please go ahead!

[09:22] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,

I think the Arstote's view of the form of natural order is me. There are leaders and followers. Depending on the followers are submissive or slave. We have that need to serve or be served. Miss Desi has hit that right on the head of the psychology and the social up bring in the family group. The flight or fight is real in all of us. But it is our nature to fight. When I turned 16, and driving I was making up my rules of order. My parents knew that I could manage by making up my rules of conduct. I became the dominate and followed them. If my girlfriends and I were out I told their parents that we would be in by midnight. So I guess I had that as being a leader before I knew I was really missing being controlled by a higher being. My childhood was good.

Vanni, that is also human nature that when we know that we can not continue on with that Dominate that is the sign of  submission of opening up your neck to the dominate of excepting his/her control order for me. . With Sir Jason and GI

[09:22] Aspen Diamond:  JOe  and I had Barbie and Ken.

I have always loved the history of The Rome Empire. I love teaching it to my World history class I do on it. I know in an afterlife I was a pleasure slaves of the castles. I think that is why I fit into Gor at the time when I started SL.

Thank you Miss Becky for your view. I have to make games for myself to motivate me at home being with out a D/s relationship. It does work. At work is a whole more interesting because I can lead and motivate others.

I have found that learning who I am here at Xaara  is so special to me and being myself now and more relaxed with not having rage or upkeep problems from the past. It is with great help that I have here with great people who helps me travel the high waves of my life here.

It is when we call a Dominate Master, Sir, Mistress, Miss it is a sign of respect for them as they would respect me. I always had a good habit and still do that so is that Old World or combine New World order with that?

CC, Rewards are what I crave for,  I

[09:22] Aspen Diamond:  think any one loves the rewards they get. and that is out of respecting each other. It is also the consent of that D/s relationship is all about also. If you give and give  and give but the other half does nothing then is it worth it for all of the motivating you did? What is the reward of that? Heart Break, not feeling worthier of yourself or go into depression. You need the rewards on how they are given.

Some Dominants I have ran into likes building their houses on sand then a soiled ground. They want it to fall who builds it on sand. The Dom them can blame the sub. Not a good mix.  

Back rewards are good and a pleasing motivation like leading with a carrot on the string. If you do this and this then you get a good reward and if you don't you get a punishment rewards. If that works and it does to some of us subs then it works. Yes, I do need Scheduled maintenance like a spanking at least once a day LOL.

[09:22] Sir Jason Oi™: I mean using that analogy you could argue that instead of just doing maintenance you could then get into souping up your car and making it built to suit your taste in purpose for the car do you want an offroad vehicle or a race car?

[09:23] Aspen Diamond: We had a behavior chart with the kids. and Yes you do get into trouble.

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Wow Aspen, you got a comment on everyone's comment! :P

[09:25] Aspen Diamond: Yes Vanni I could not stop my fingers from typing. Giggling

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB you have a question?

[09:25] RB Quinn: (Umm... this was a Q @ CC, so it's maybe stale, but I am still wondering...)  I am perhaps profligate with my praise (always justified, but my threshold is low).  Should I be concerned about the negative effects this has on my subs??  #

[09:25] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: People are conditioned to do things just for the rewards

[09:26] Sultry: But not all succumb to that conditioning.

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: CC I'll have to disagree with that (as our resident Sociologist here) only in the way that human behavior cannot be reduced to a single cause.

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: No one acts *only* to get a reward, it's part of a myriad set of things that drive a particular behavior.

[09:27] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Sir RB, research has shown that excessive praise lessons the enjoyment and original intrinsic reasons for doing a service.

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: And certainly can be a big part

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: The expectation of reward can certainly overshadow other motivations.

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: let's quickly go through the rest of the comments here.  Sultry, please!

[09:28] Sultry: Thanks, Vanni! During my first marriage I was basically the one in charge. He was a good provider and father but he was not capable, or perhaps comfortable, being the one in charge.  It fell to me and I found it a struggle and kept wishing he would take charge.  I was 19 at that time and I was unaware of the lifestyle so had no idea I was leaning towards being submissive.  Eventually we divorced and as I got older I realized that I was attracted to older and more dominant men, and those I felt could provide for this underlying need I had for control, as well as my strong desire to want to please.  I can be independent and strong when I need to be, but I do prefer the more submissive role in a relationship.  Have a I taken time to think about the sociological aspect of it?  Have I even thought about environmental influences?  Nope, I have not.  Nor have I thought about any other influences other than I simply went with what I felt came naturally to me.....to be submissive.#

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli: Righty, your experiences have definitely affected how you put yourself in the world, Sultry.

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli: Good points thanks Sultry

[09:31] Vanni Cannoli: So Vivian you get the last comment for today

[09:31] Vⅰνⅰaη Ąηη dє мσηтƒσят: Aspen, I love what you said too. I apologize for being late but I Have gotten so much out of this! I can only go by my experience, which is not alot, but I am told I am cherished, I am a treasured gem. I am so grateful for that. I believe the dom/sub is so intrinsic to that couple. and I believe the success is truly in the willingness to learn and grow from each person. I am feeling very grateful this morning. I have to say I feel nothing like a car at all. Just a treasured precious part of Master Simon, where I can rest and feel safe.

[09:33] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Vivian, OK Miss Lisa, you are really the last comment :P

[09:33] Lisa Summerland: Thank you Vanni…………..Vivvy’s comment reminded me that I too swore to be nothing like people in my house hold. And in time I came to forgive them as I now believe they were only doing the best that they could or were ever going to be able to do, as a result of their Childhood Socialization, even though I still abhor their behaviour. My controlling Military Father abusively dominated rather than raised us.... My submissive mother meekly obeying....  I lost count of the times I told myself that their behaviours were perfect examples of what not to do.. What was real was lived at home and the false face and act was what was lived in public and church every time the doors were opened...... I swore to never be under the abusive hand of a Dominant, and all my life I have done my best to be the opposite of what I grew up in and instead being a loving, caring Dominant and enabling and enhancing all those in all my relationships to the best of their potential and to my abilities….

[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: it's important to remember that Return to the Familiar is a *trend*, it's not an absolute

[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: my mother was HORRIBLE with managing money

[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: so in seeing how she did it, I went in exactly the opposite direction, managing money wisely

[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: as I didn't want to end up in the same situation she often put us in

[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: So we hopefully learn from the past to make the present and future better

[09:35] Aspen Diamond: I don't feel like a car but our attitudes do need check on to make sure we are where we supposed to be .

[09:35] Vanni Cannoli: Well thank Y/you all for that lively discussion!

[09:36] Vanni Cannoli: Please remember to throw some love in the Xaara tip jar to keep our kinky home going if Y/you can!

"Service Tops and Bottoms" -- May 23, 2021

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: alrighty time to get started!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: I'll start with the usual blurb

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: This week we will end our series of discussions on "types" of BDSM and D/s relationships

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Having gone over each aspect of the BDSM acronym

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: And then looking at various kinds of Dominant/Sub/Slave relationships

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Remember that as next weekend is Memorial Day weekend in the USA, we will NOT have a klatch, I love Y/you all, but not that much as I'm getting out of bed early on a holiday weekend :P

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So this week, in our final discussion in this series, we will go over the concept of the "Service Top" and "Service Bottom"

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: There are a lot of different ways to define these, and I'm hoping in this discussion we can really "Flesh Out" the idea

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: In general a Service Top is a person that is not heavily drawn to BDSM acts like tying, flogging, etc, stuff we associate with the "Top" in a scene

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: This could be for example a Dominant who is heavily drawn to the D/s aspect of the connection, but will flog/beat on their charge to keep them happy

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Or it could be a person that identifies more as "sub" but will take on the Top role for another, maybe another member of the D/s family, or even at times their Owner who likes to switch.  We talked about that a bit last week.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Likewise a "Service Bottom" is a person who may not be very drawn to the BDSM aspect of things, but will willingly serve another as a bottom, within their limits, of course.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So perhaps a sub who knows their Dominant really likes flogging, and will consent to being flogged, while reading another chapter of "Great Expectations" while it's going on lol

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Speaking for myself, I can say in many ways, my submission is to Xaara, as there is no Dominant in my life that directs me.  So I serve Xaara with my time and my talents and feel happy when I know I do a job that serves others.

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So "service sub" doesn't have to be in a BDSM aspect, it can be in other ways.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Another example is the Community Slaves

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Who may not be tied to a particular Dom/me, but serve the whole community with their time and bodies.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So that's an excellent example of the "Service Sub/Bottom"

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: In any case, this is a different kind of Dominant/Sub kind of connection than we often see here, but I thought it would be good to have a discussion on.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: So let's start...what do Y/you think of Service Tops and Bottoms?  What kinds of roles do they play?  Do Y/you consider yourself in line with one of these?

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Master RB, you start us off today!

[08:25] RB Quinn: It is not that I don't *enjoy* whacking a pretty bottom or reddening a bosom.... but I don't crave it in and for itself.  But I *do* love the intimacy, the power exchange and the connection it implies.  And, if my submissive does crave it (smiles warmly to his Sensi), then I am delighted to provide.#

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: So, Master RB, your essential being as a Dominant comes primarily from the D/s connection, but You happily provide the BDSM acts to Your charges and You do get something from it, even if it's not Your "primary focus?"

[08:27] RB Quinn: Exactly so, Vanni :)

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent!

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, we come to You please!

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: When You are ready. :)

[08:29] Ballard: I will agree with RB, and add a dimension to this entire arena of talk.  I often do something for a play partner that maybe is not something I'm thrilled about.  BUT, if she reacts, and I see that I have affected her, then indeed I get a lot out of it.  Perhaps 80% of my gratification is knowing that I had an emotional affect on my partner, that I rocked her world.  I study a woman, to see what really winds her up, then, if all goes well, I can play her body like a grand piano, and get her soaring.  In doing that, I soar right beside her.

Does that make me a service top?  Trust me, I also take what I want for myself.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Well I don't think there is any single "definition" to the term, Master Ballard. *grins*  And the person who serves the other still has to have some exchange back.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: So I do agree in a way you "serve" your partners while still retaining Your connection as the Dominant person.

[08:32] flo: I am a service bottom, I like to be a little gear in the machine that keeps Xaara running, it gives me a feeling of usefulness and contentment and I also like to be available to serve with my body if it is wished for, I like the flexibility of this approach, because you deal with so much different persons and their likes and preferences, in my service I try to adjust to each Dominant#

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: That was a very good example.  Thank You.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: And we go to flo LOL

ask that everyone wait until I get to Y/you, thank Y/you!

[08:34] flo: sorry

[08:34] flo: I entered too early

[08:34] flo: hahaha

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: No worries, I just didn't want to get everyone going and we'd lose track of who said what :P

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: So flo, you definitely identify as a Service Bottom as you connect to many different Dominant persons here

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: and adjust to them

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: I think that's a very clear example of a "service bottom"...in service to many rather than just to one.

[08:36] flo: yes, I try to be fluid and connect with a preference and likes of a Dominant#

[08:36] flo: in my service*

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: As a follow up, do you then not see yourself as being a sub to a single Dominant at some point?  Does this give you what you need fully without that single D/s element?

[08:37] Ballard: C @ Flo

[08:37] flo: I do have a main D/s dynamic, but I am not collared by this main

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Gotchya Flo :)

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you, excellent insight from a community slave :)

[08:38] flo: which I am perfectly fine with, I don't need to be collared to someone to have a connetion

[08:39] flo: I am done

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Ok now Miss Joanne we come to you, let me put Your comment back in chat

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: [08:32] Joanne: as you stated, BDSM acts.. isn't it better to say the service Top/bottom doesn't want the D/s

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: That's certainly another way to define this kind of service, Miss.

[08:41] Joanne: I just think when you're defining things like this its important to be clear, as flo stated she has her own D/s setup, that is separate from her wishes to be a service bottom.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: In First Life, I am a Top, I go to my club (which should hopefully open in June again!  Yay!) and I look for Bottoms who want to have the tar beat out of them.

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: I have no desire to be a Domme outside of that setting

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: But I don't consider myself a "Service Top" any more than I consider any of them to be a "Service Bottom"

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: We just like getting together and having kinky fun.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: so I very much agree that words and definitions matter, but I also think each person or persons are going to self-identify and figure out what they mean to their own particular settings.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: If that makes sense?

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Master RB, you have a comment about Miss Joanne's?

[08:44] RB Quinn: If we are voting, though, I would come down on the reverse of Joanne's definition.#

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: I don't think we need a hard or single definition, Master RB :P

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Everyone's comment is perfectly valid in a particular context.

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: But I think that flo does like serving the whole community as a bottom (community slave) while at the same time expressing her D/s desires with her primary connection

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: So Miss Joanne's comment certainly is correct as well :")

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: thank You Miss Joanne! :)

[08:47] Joanne: my pleasure Vanni x

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Doxie, you are up please!

[08:47] Doxie Sixpence: here we go .......

[08:47] Doxie Sixpence: I think I fall into this service sub class, though certainly I have experienced some more physical aspects of bdsm and found them exciting. But mostly my own thing comes from being supportive and doing what my Master needs from me in return for clear direction and being cared for. Though I also try to do the same for Xaara. Does that fit? or is it something else completely? #

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Now you brought up a really good point...is there a distinction between a "service sub" and a "service bottom?"

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Your connection to Sir Dean is D/s primarily, same to Xaara as a Seraph

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Which is how I view myself in that regard

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: If you were a "Service Bottom" as we're generally describing it, you would consensually do BDSM acts (as opposed to D/s) for someone and primarily feel good about the fact you served them in that way.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Even if you weren't over the top, orgasmically thrilled with them

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: If that makes sense?

[08:51] Doxie Sixpence: it does

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: As opposed to when I go to the club and beat the tar out of someone...we both get that high in different ways.  We over the top enjoy it. *grins*

[08:53]  ღ Desi™ღ Beaumont: its more about the contract that two parties make with each other, A sub or slave can give the same type of service.  Its more about who is giving and who is receiving and why

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Sir PRIM, please!

[08:54] PRIM: Thanks vanni...as with a question with multiple answers, mine will always be the correct one...chuckles :-))....nice comment doxie... as are all the comments thus far...

[08:54] PRIM: is there a difference in service / bottom sub.....Dominant connection or is it just naturally a sub / slave wanting to do what they desire and need to do..

Be it serving a community a sim or a Dominant makes no difference it is still that desire to serve and please... i think of it as a simple system that can be expanded from a singular Dominant to a multitude of Dominants with the same basic desire still being pursued...

Regardless of if it is my own sub / slave or a sim sub / slave they should all be cherished respected admired and protected for that special gift they do offer for those they choose to serve... remember all subs / slaves appreciate seeing that they have served well and pleased ...so do not ignore them when they have finished serving let them see and feel just how much you are pleased...A Dominant is to guide nurture and assist a sub / slave to learn grow and evolve .. not to belittle and destroy##

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Sir!  Service is service and s-types get really happy when they hear "job well done!"

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Great words and comment, thank You Sir!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, you are up please!

[08:56] Hunter: You might regret calling on me...

[08:56] Hunter: Sorry this is a long one. I'm a fucking gobshite when I get going. I enjoy both service bottoming and topping. It features heavily in most of what I do within the community and in my own dynamics. I often service top for my Mistress, Lady Rose in RL, and also with the pups in my pack. I have enjoyed doing both for scene demonstrations at events and during pup moshes. As a sub, I can appear to be 90% top. But if you got to know me well enough, you would see what I am pretty damn versatile with a very toppy personality that really gets in the way a lot of the time. I get the vast majority of my pleasure from providing services and having my aggressive sexual nature controlled by someone with more power and presence than myself. In the pup and handler community I work a lot of the time as a service pup, which is something many may not have heard of. A service pup is someone who fits different roles as needed to provide to the community. It could be supporting a new puppy, acting as a handler, providing

[08:56] Hunter:  training, or monitoring the mats during a mosh (similar type of thing for a dungeon monitor). While it may look like the desire is to be in charge and control others, under the surface is a desire to serve in a way that meets your skills, personality, interests and provides for others. I strongly and passionately serve the PAH community, in a way many of the Xaara subs and slaves serve Xaara. Personally, I want to feel under the thumb of someone stronger than myself. I crave the D/s dynamics as much as any other might, I just love to have fun and do what makes me happy.. Which just happens to be service bottoming and topping. I want that authority to stand under. Defining anything is hard in this lifestyle, and it is so easy to try and put yourself into a box to feel comfy. But I feel that being yourself and shrugging off the expectations from others to live your life how you feel most comfortable under the BDSM umbrella is a priority. To the latest question. The only distinction I would say is the action.

[08:56] Hunter:  One takes the top, one takes the bottom. The main reasoning is pretty much the same, but the personal reasons for doing either or both are entirely unique to that individual. #

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Well you did say a lot Hunter, and I think a lot of what you said does very clearly connect to the service top and bottom kind of connections.

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Hunter!

[09:00] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,  I have always been in serving others. As I worked the hospitals I would always call the doctors Sir's, You could tell from what doctors really like that then Doctor so and so. I was in a single group in my very earlier years in my twenty's that I was always serving men in that juster. The jobs I have had has alway in the serving area. I guess that is why I feel  that I am a natural submissive . I fit my body as one in all Real World and here at Xaara in SLT..

Yes I would do what my Dom, Master or Top with trust I would do for him as his bottom. Master Ballard has the right idea for allot of us who is truly into serving. He reads and talk with his partners (his girls) and by the way he cares for each one like playing with their bodies like his grand piano, I think of my body being a great playground with with slides, and so on............

If I was not collared sub,  I would liked to become a community  slave to Xaara. and work on my Angel Path at the same time and be part of Xaara. Then

[09:00] Aspen Diamond:  and if only then a Master saw all I had to offer then yes to be collard. I agree with some of the comments about giving/receiving also as a sub. Even in our friendships here .I am a service bottom as I see myself.

Vanni, I do agree with you on the point that you made about "Service Bottoms"  I know that there are times where I should be getting flogged or having my ass get beat to release my frustrations out of me so I can reset my emotions and my attitude. If your top wants you to be on top I would have to do it. Your top requesting is because it is a need that he needs filled also. It is a give and take relationship. Smiling.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Aspen, you definitely made serveral good points there and are definitely on track for this discussion

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: so we come to Brianne please

[09:02] Brianne: So, the way I'm understanding this, Service D/s is not as much about 'what' you do and 'how' you do it, it's 'that' you do it.  That's the indirect source of pleasure.  Sorta meta.  Does that make sense?#

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, mostly.  I think we should however differentiate "Service D/s" from "Service Top/Bottom."

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: D/s is based on some kind of relationship

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Top/Bottom is more based on the kinds of actions taken

[09:04] Hunter: I always settled it down to both what you do and why you do it.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: But in that, as Master RB said, while he will happily do S/M stuff with his charges, His primary focus is the D/s connection.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: He "serves" them in that way, and still gets a thrill, as Master Ballard also pointed out.

[09:05] Ballard: I'm actually selfish that way.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: And the Bottom might not get the biggest thrill from being beat on, but they do it happily for their Top or Dominant as they know the Dom/me gets off doing it, and feels good about it.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen what did you have to say to Sir Ballard?

[09:06] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: do  the subs do all this for the extrinsic rewards of hearing, "good girl" "Good boy." "Well done." How much of it is intrinsic, self-motivating? I know, same old thing lol.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: I think an S-type always feels happy with hearing that CC.  Do any other subs have something to offer?

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: but to what degree is it necessary, there are no intrinsic factors ?

[09:08] Brianne: being told I'm a good girl, feeling competent and useful, never goes out of style.

[09:09] Laila Raines: I personally do not serve simply to hear the good girl. I feel fulfilled knowing that my Dom is pleased and happy. That I have provided something to him that gives him joy.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: It goes back to exchange theory, CC.  If a person serves and serves and never gets any reciprocation, they're not going to be very interested in serving that person very long

[09:09] Hunter: I have a praise kink. No doubt about it. Just hearing the praise and getting that smile can turn me from grumpy fucking big boy into a pile of subby puppy goo. I love it. I will do so much to get it, to feel the Dominants joy and feel like i did a good job and was a good boy. Its HIGH on my list of what brought to me submission and puppy play.

[09:09] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: so the S type is conditioned needing extrinsic always?

[09:09] Ballard: It is essential to reward with words, but also important to not over do it.

[09:10] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I can talk to you later about that Sir Ballard

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: I think each person gets validated in their own way, CC.

[09:10] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: hearing " good girl" or clever girl " etc is always great. its like the cherry on top of being able to make that person happy in providing service to them

[09:10] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I agree Vanni

[09:11] Hunter: It's funny, that just talking about praise makes me happy. I feel excited and I'm smiling at just the thought.

[09:11] Brianne: yes, Rouge, the happiness of service comes first, then the praise is like fireworks

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: So I think it's incumbant on the particular Dominant to find out *how* their charge needs to be validated and be sure they are doing it

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Otherwise that sub will feel resentment

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: so now that I have no idea who said what and why....

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: let's go to Vivian's comment above!

[09:10] Vⅰνⅰaη Ąηη dє мσηтƒσят: I am not sure if I am a service bottom but I am definately a bottom. I am a chatty happy sub but I learning to be calm and just kneel. Allow my Master to think and trust his mind and thoughts. I think Sir Prim was taliking about cherishing. that is how I feel. I feel safe and cherished and guided. I have many things to learn and my Master takes the time to teach me. I can't say I have not been caged or spanked but I am submissive and always willing to learn to make my Master happy.  I love being called baby girl and being told he is proud of me. Its the best feeling ever. I find I am not so worried about everything else and can just relax in his compassion and care and strict direction. Loyalty always!

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: I think what you said Vivian is very much part of the validation we are talking about

[09:13] Ballard: [09:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vannesh Cannoli): So I think it's incumbent on the particular Dominant to find out *how* their charge needs to be validated and be sure they are doing it  -  Agrees

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And that the service sub feels a lot of validation from the service in and of itself, of offering themselves to a Dominant, or their Dominant, even if the actual BDSM acts aren't all that thrilling.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Master Ballard!

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And the Dominant might not be all that thirlled about beating on an ass, but they do it to keep their charge happy and so they perform a service.  That's what it's all about in this discussion.

[09:15] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni

Please forgive me Master Ballard. It was Brianne question. Brianne if you are a sub/slave you are a bottom then you are serving your Top, Dom, or Mistress. I am happier when I can receive from the Top. As I give serves to him or her then I full filed then need. But then are they fulling your needs also by serving.

I also love hearing that I am a good girl, claver girl, good pet as a nickname. The more good comments and praise I get the more I feel wanted and care for. I learn more by that then being yelled at. The correction iin this relationship it alway trust.

[09:15] Ballard: Aspen will have to remove a piece of clothing for each extra "C", agreed?

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen.

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Does anyone else have a comment before we break today?

[09:17] Ballard: Actually.

[09:18] Ballard: The very topic of service lies at the core of all we do, all we are.

[09:18] Brianne nods

[09:18] Hunter: I've already said everything I wanted. Now I'm just drooling over the thought of being called a good boy and getting lost in what kinds of kinky fuckery I could get up to in order to get the praise. Snickers.

[09:18] Ballard: A dominant that feels no obligation to his subs is really just an asshole, not a dominant

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Master Ballard!

[09:19] Vⅰνⅰaη Ąηη dє мσηтƒσят: smiles at Sir Ballard's words and looks down

[09:19] Ballard: I once wrote a discussion about the differernce bvetween an asshole and a Dominant.  It was meant to be funny, but it was a good serious talk

[09:19] Aspen Diamond: Blushing with m head down and them up with a smile.

[09:19] Odienne Kaimononiiku is offline.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for your comments today.  Please be sure to throw a bit of money in the tip jar on the bar to keep the sim going!  And those in the States, have a happy Memorial Day weekend next weekend, and we'll meet back in two weeks.

"Switches -- May 16, 2021

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:13] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I can't seem to finish these discussions without getting called away, Bye E/everyone

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Hasta la Pasta, CC!

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: I got a call just as this started to go service Vladimir Putin. I said they have to be Put-in me on!

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli points at Brianne

[08:15] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:15] Rachel Reid: Oh lord lolololol

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you! I will try to follow my own advice.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021. I will finally have time to update it this week. Damn students.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Last week we discussed "Brats" and how the bratty sub can really stir the pot for some.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Switches seem to cause some consternation as well, but for different reasons.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: There are three ways, at least, that "switch" can be used

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: the first is when a person can "switch" between a D-type and an S-type.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: There are D/s houses in SL that have a 'chain' going, with a top Dominant, and then His or Her or Their subs, who are Dominants to their own subs, who have their own subs....down the line

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: It's floggers, not turtles, all the way down.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So the ones in the "middle" switch to being a D-type or an S-type depending on the context.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: A second kind of "switch" is pretty common in First Life BDSM communities, a person who will go to a club, or in SL I imagine to play parties or such things, and do different scenes

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So a person might go to the club, be a Top in one scene, and then in a second one be a Bottom, or vice versa

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: I can't imagine anyone who would do such a thing, it seems horrid. *coughs*

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: the third was I've heard switch used is in a scene itself, when the Bottom will at some point grab the Top and they "switch". This is usually some negotiated scene change.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: There are a few people in my RL community that enjoy that kind of in-scene switching.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: of course, it begs the question, who is really the Top and who is really the Bottom? Does it matter?

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: In SL, switching seems to cause issues for some.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Some Dominants say that they want a "pure submissive"

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Not one with D-type tendencies

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Some submissives see switches as sort of not completely trustworthy

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Or they can't wrap their heads around a Dom/me that likes to get their jollies on the other side as well. One sub (not here) I talked to was crying to me about her Domme being a switch, saying she couldn't stand the idea of "Mistress on her knees"

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: She had lost all faith in her Mistress.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: These are real emotions, I'm not making fun, let me be clear.

[08:25]  ᴠɪᴠᴠʏ: I could understand that.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: So while some people really enjoy the idea of switching, others find problems with it.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I'm sure many who have been around here for a while remember the issues we had with it about a year and a half ago.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: As I remember, Master Laz had to step in and sort of calm things down.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: And He is pretty hesitant to do such, so it says quite a bit about the consternation.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So what are Y/your ideas on switches and switching? Good, bad, ugly, indifferent? Fun? Baneful?

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Let's start with Master Ballard please!

[08:30] Ballard: I would posit that in the kind of play you are describing, the title top or bottom does not matter at all.  It's play, not a long term situation.  Sometimes a switch will be in a long term relationship, in a steady role with someone, yet also want to have the other experience at times, usually with someone other than their constant.  I have been  in relationships like that, where my submissive had boys of her own.  It worked well, because we kept our heads clear.  A healthy open house dynamic lends itself well to such arrangements.  

My only issue with switches in Xaara, as you mentioned before, is that there was a perception that someone was using the switch option 'tactically' to get what they want, or to attend confidential meetings for both sides.  It felt exploitive, and made it impossible to deal with them and know who you were really dealing with.  That said, we remained on good terms  Many people felt it was a cheap tactic..#

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli knows of what Master Ballard speaks.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: There was a lot of that kind of talk, going around, Sir.

[08:32] Ballard: It became quite tense.

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And as a switch myself, I do agree that getting that kick on the other side should be with a different person. I find it problematic to the D/s relationship myself about being topped by someone that wants me as their Dominant, or vice versa. It can cause an issue in the dynamic IMO. But people do it and as long as it's consensual, it's good with me what others do!

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you, Sir, for starting us off well!

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Vivvy, please!

[08:37]  ᴠɪᴠᴠʏ: I have tried to be a sub before. But it was not for me. I think we must have something at heart that says we are one or the other. I think some do switch just to get all the way around. And maybe some are able to determine the space in the middle they are most comfortable with. I can also see where it could be problematic getting confused trying to top from the bottom or using that strength in situations that make them unhappy. I learned a lot trying to shut down my strengths in my heart. And was painful for me. So that let me know I am not a sub.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Miss, and that's a very clear it to look at it. Thank You!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's go to Julie please

[08:39] Julie: I don't see a problem with a Mistress being a switch if she is open and honest with Her sub(s) about it. As subs we can also have switch tenancies that we might want to explore and if we're owned it would take a special Miss to allow us to do such just as it takes a special sub to understand a Miss's desires to switch. Open and honest conversations and communication I think are the keys in any relationship and even more so if one, or more, have switch tenancies/desires.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: I agree 100%! Honest and open communication is the only way to maintain any kind of relationship.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Julie, that was a good comment and again, open and direct communication is 100% the key to any success in a relationship.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Brianne please! Ok Blondie, go ahead!

[08:43] Brianne: My sister, Kitty, has recently started playing the role of my Miss (esp. puppy owner).  I'm lucky because I get the extra dominating attention that I need when Mistress is unavailable, and some training reinforcement as well.  Kitty has wanted to explore her topping nature to see how far it goes.  It's working out great.  We knew each other a long time as sub sisters, sharing our most secret thoughts, being in love.  Dropping that into a D/s framework has been amazing!  We really 'get' each other.  So I've learned that switching has some unique advantages.  And it's amazing to me to watch her switch modes back when Mistress shows up.  Switches do not lose my respect at all; far from it!

[08:44] Brianne: #

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: "advantages" and "extra domination" *giggles*

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli gets the Domination hose for Brianne

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: ok we'll go to Laila

[08:48] Laila Raines: Thank you Vanni. So my question to the group is "How do you truly distinguish between a switch and a submissive that likes to push boundaries (back against their Dom/me) and/or tries to Top from the bottom?

[08:49] Laila Raines: #

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Hmm good question

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: if anyone wants to answer, please go ahead, do not put a C in

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: otherwise we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: or Cs bottoming, and maybe they want to Top

[08:51] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:51] Ballard: All I would say is that sounds likje time for a porch talk, Laila

[08:51] Aspen Diamond: I have found that if you show weakness then the sub will top from the bottom. Mistress.

[08:51] SAM: I'll give my thoughts.... since this one and I have been talking about it.  How it feels to the submissive and the dominant matters.   if a submissive feels good when topping from the bottom, then maybe she’s got dominant tendencies, if she feels frustrated then she's not getting filled up

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Good points!

[08:52] SAM: if the dominant feels good when being topped from the bottom then maybe HE has switching tendencies

[08:53] PRIM: aila:- A switch is a dominant when they are in that mode and is hard to miss. a sub should know and understand their boundaries that is the difference for myself anyway...in the begining a sub pushing the boundaries will be expected but as time goes by and all grwo then the need to push should be overridden by their desire to please their Dominant

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: I knew a couple that would log into SL and then decided who was the Domme and who was the sub based on their feelings that day, actually I knew TWO couples over the years that did that.

[08:53] SAM: are there other mechanisms a switch submissive can use to see if she's really just pushing boundaries and not a switch?

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: I don't think "pushing against one's Dominant" makes a person a switch, I think that brings into question the nature of their relationship with that Dominant. If they're endlessly pushing, either something is wrong, or they are a brat and maybe the Dom/me wasn't ready for that.

[08:55] Jo Silverwing: I owned a sub that owned one of my alts,  I decided which side I wanted to play when logging.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: This again, is why clear communication is necessary.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that question, Laila! WE have a lot of people in the queue so we must move on.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Peaches it put you back in automagically, so you are up!

[08:56] Peaches Svenska: I was a switch for years in Gor. In public, I was a high ranking Free Woman with male slaves of my own, but behind closed doors of the family household, I was Master Ballard's slave.

When we left Gor, and i was finally purged of the bad parts of Gorean philosophy since coming here to Xaara, I lost most of the inclination to switch. I am a submissive, to be sure... but a smart, articulate subbie male really makes my switch twitch. But..I dont have it in me to manage both, I'm supremely content with my life as a submissive.

I have been Rouge's Mistress since she has been with Master Ballard, from the days of Gor..and even here, she still, privately, refers to me as Mistress..which is perfectly fine with me..she needs that from me, here in Xaara, and since our relationship is non-sexual, only nurturing..I'm happy to be that for her. #

[08:57] Ballard: AND I love that you both do that.

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: That's great, Peaches!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops in my RL BDSM community is a slave to her Mistress, but at the same time, Tops a lot in the dungeon AND has a boi she has a D/s love relationship with.

[08:58] Brianne: Awesome.

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Diana, the Dominant Mistress, doesn't care what Mo/e does, as long as "her windows are cleaned and dinner is made" lol

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: so there you go!

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Peaches!

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up please!

[09:00] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,

I found out the hard way that I was a switch ((IN REAL)) and through it was really the way to be in BDSM to fit in. When I started in FetLife then it open the world up for me. I liked at the time being in charge when I had a weak Dom. I could become the director of the scene. Yes, I had my toys of floggers, paddles, and ect. I took classes and leaned how to flog. Yes, it gave me power.

When I started going to a Master dungeon after a munch because he would open his house up I started looking at that. I flog one of the Masters who wanted to see my skill set of flogging. When I made him hard is when he knew how good I could do it. Then he took me and tied me to the cross is when he found out that I am truly a submissive. That then turned my world upside down and showed how I surrender to him.. When he and I were doing the sex dance later that night he rolled me on top of him and I did not like feeling that I became the switch again.

When I entered Gor and Xaale I knew I was a submissive.

[09:00] Aspen Diamond:  That is who I am now.

1. S. I sometimes have to catch myself from Topping From the Bottom. I need to be called out for that. I am such a dominant in real with the kids i have done my switching when I get home. I want to be that submissive to whom I can submit to a powerful Dominant. .

Master Sam made a great point and I see why when I try to top from the bottom is the frustrations of not getting what I need. You need that open conversation  and being honest to your Dom/Mistress to let them know what and who you are.

Peaches, No matter if you are in a poly house hold and you were Master Ballards slave coming from Gor you are still First Girl know matter what. This is the way I look at in a poly relationship of being the first girl on that chain.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli hands Aspen her book contract

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli grins

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: I'd just like to point out, Aspen, that "topping from the bottom" doesn't mean that a sub has to be passive all the time. It means trying actively to manipulate the Dominant or take their place in the power exchange.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Lots of good items there. Peaches you have a comment to Aspen?

[09:03] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni

[09:04] Peaches Svenska: no disrespect intended, but your view of our house is not quite correct. Master Ballard is the top and we three girls kneel side by side at his feet. Our personal roles are so varied they cannot be compared or ranked

[09:04] Aspen Diamond: Can someone be my editor because I do have a book I just writtien.

[09:04] Peaches Svenska: IM me Aspen..I'll give you my price!

[09:05] Ballard: We do not employ ranks, no first girl.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks, Peaches.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Yeah I'm not into that idea personally either, Sir. No "first/second/seventy-third" for me. Everyone under the Dom/me is equal in respect and consideration.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli was asked once to be #8 in what this Domme said would be 20 or more. Vanni politely declined.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: That said, of course, how people set up their situation is their biz and if it works, great!

[09:07] Sam Cabot: Reminds me of one of the reasons I left Gor. 6 IS a long chain to hold.

[09:07] Aspen Diamond: Peaches, Thank you for that correction and I do know that each poly house hold has their rules. Thank you. Kisses and Hugs

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Sir SAM is up now, please

[09:07] Sam Cabot: I have a submissive who in the last one year has slowly been letting out more of her sexually aggressive side. (scratching, biting, pushing etc). And I'm actually happy she feels free to express one of her urges/needs. She still asks me if it is ok to let the beast out before she does anything and says I only dare do this with because I know you can tame the beast if you want. That is not topping from the bottom, or switching. It is only a way to let out that intense passion and energy with someone who makes you feel safe.#

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: lol well it was SAM as opposed to Sam *grins*

[09:08] SAM: laughs, ok...Vanni can I slip in after greedy Sam?

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Imagine if we were all really called "Bruce"

[09:08] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: And sir Sam...I agree! A fiesty sub is exactly what many Dom/mes like. As long as they know where their final place should be, being active can be a good thing. But of course, some subs are really passive and they need their feelings nurtured too. Something for everyone!

[09:10] SAM: we're taking over the world... just saying

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sir Sam, we now go to Sir SAM. lol .. where is Sir SaM?

[09:10] SAM: I agree with Vivvy's earlier comment, I had a switch as a playmate and I let her tie me up... I lasted all of 3 minutes before I had a panic attack; Submissives really are the strong ones!  My comment is I dont like the mentality that a dominant doesnt understand submission unless they have submitted themselves, that seems to be a thought I've heard to promote switching as something we all should do.   I do experiment with things, see how they feel before asking them of my submissive, using a crop on my hand, etc but thats different.  I'll end by saying I very much enjoy having submissives who self identify as having switching tendencies.  Ive heard of them referred to as Alpha Submissives, or Warrior Princess submissives although labels aren't really important IMO.  What is important to me is  they seem to trend to being strong, confident and take charge in their lives and from my end it seems extra special to have earned their submission.

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Plus a Dom/me gets to watch their charge beat the s**t out of someone, and then maybe both of them service said Dom/me after...seems win/win to me....

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Prim, You are up please!

[09:13] PRIM: these are only my thoughts on this subject matter

[09:14] PRIM: As many have already stated

communication

Communication

Communication......

Dominant Master Mistress Switch sub slave pet baby girl blue pink apple orange mazda ford these are all just names..

With in our lifestyle tolerance is a fundamental foundation stone and respect for a person regardless of tag / title  etc is a must any who find it hard to accept need time to reflect..sadly when a preconceived idea and notion one has on a particular hmm subject matter can be seriously shaken when that preconceived notion is suddenly altered..

we all need to seriously think about what we do do and how it may affect those we are close too...and that is as much for Dominants as subs etc ...

For myself a switch is just that a name it is the person behind it that you need to look at..we all have our own ideas and understandings but we are all here because we enjoy growing learning and evolving..

at the end of the day it si the interaction between family members that is of concern and not for any one else to worry unless

[09:14] PRIM:  there is clear signs of abuse which is totally unacceptable in any form

My feelings on this topic

I myself have had Switches as slaves and subs who have had their own subs etc i never found an issue as long as all are honest open respectful and seeking to be where they are....Knowing ones place is essential for Dominant and sub..#

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: all very well said, Sir!

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sir Prim, that is a clear and concise set of ideas surrounding this topic.

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard, you put in that C about an hour ago, so we wind back to You please!

[09:18] Ballard: My simple question is:  Is it appropriate to use and alt for switching?  Not to hide or lie, but for clarity.  When you meet this Avatar, they are dominant.  When you meet this one, they are submissive.  Does that make sense, would it even work?  I really do not know the answer, but I know some people that do that, often in different sims.  (Maybe Dominant in Xaara, but a submissive alt in Roissey, for example)#

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Well I can speak for myself, Sir, I keep my D-type tendencies out of Xaara, but I don't use an alt. I just feel for the sake of clarity to keep things separate.

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: But I'd not create "Vanni 2.0" to do that.

[09:22] SAM: I'll comment now... some people are sensitive to Alts and others arent.  for me, I only ask for honesty and transparency if an Alt is in use.   It makes sense to me that it's easier with Firestorm, friends lists, outfits and props to have a differeent AV for clarity for some

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: we need to move on as Phoenix has been waiting a long time, go ahead please!

[09:22] PRIM: i am needing to go thank you all for your comments they are all truly thought provoking and give cause to much thought thanks vanni for another excellent eveing (for me)

[09:22] Phoenix Rising: I swear I wanted to sit and queltly listen when I came, but the comment about a sub topping from the bottom when a dom shows weaknesuspet me.To me that dynamic is not switching and not even D/s. It;s just toxic. A dominat mindset is whe you're redy to take responsibility for your sub and yourself and switching for a sub means entering that menatl space. And for a dom switching means leaving it and instead entering the world where they are responsible only for themselves. Only vanillas aren;t responsible for anything #

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: I agree with you that topping from the bottom is a pretty toxic situation in a D/s setting. If someone is exploiting a weakness, that's not submission.

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for that comment, sorry it took so long to get to you!

[09:25] Phoenix Rising: no worries Vanni

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen do you have a final comment?

[09:28] Aspen Diamond: Vanni, It has been great once more to meet ever Sunday here for me and I think to all of the others here. Please keep doing this Love you Very much.

[09:29] Vanni Cannoli: Ok well then that closes our discussion for today, thank Y/you all for participating!

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli: Next week we'll finish this discussion with a look at "service tops and bottoms"

"Brats!" -- May 9, 2021

[2021/05/09 08:16]  Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[2021/05/09 08:16]  Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[2021/05/09 08:17]  Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[2021/05/09 08:17]  Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[2021/05/09 08:17]  Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[2021/05/09 08:18]  Vanni Cannoli: OK, today we continue our discussion of types of D/s relationships, and come to one we did discuss about 18 months ago, "The Brat"

[2021/05/09 08:18]  Doxie Sixpence: hi Candice :)

[2021/05/09 08:19]  Vanni Cannoli: The "Brat Sub" is one of the most misunderstood and often denigrated kind of submissive out there, and definitely causes a love/hate kind of reaction

[2021/05/09 08:20]  Vanni Cannoli: They are believed to simply be "attention getters" and not really submissive at all.

[2021/05/09 08:21]  Vanni Cannoli: On the other hand, there are Dom/mes that LOVE having bratty type submissives under their control...if you can call it "control"

[2021/05/09 08:23]  Vanni Cannoli: What I'd like to ask our assembly is 1) Are you a brat or do You have a brat on Your hands? 2) What is being a "brat" about as opposed to other kinds of submissive, and 3) What are the pros and cons of this style of D/s? Y/you can feel free to answer those, or bring up Y/your own view on bratty behavior.

[2021/05/09 08:23]  Vanni Cannoli: BTW I do want to differentiate "Brat" from "cheeky".

[2021/05/09 08:24]  Vanni Cannoli: The cheeky sub is a bit sarcastic and has a mind of their own, but is not being what most people would consider a "real brat".

[2021/05/09 08:24]  Vanni Cannoli: When you see a brat, or if you are a brat, you KNOW that sub is a brat.

[2021/05/09 08:24]  Vanni Cannoli: Ok Miss Becky we'll start with You please!

[2021/05/09 08:26]  Becky Summerland: My first comment about brats is that, they can be playful, entertaining, they do animate a room, but, dang, they can be a handful... a brat has to know when to tone it down, otherwise, they become draining and will use the fact they are a brat to justify anything. I love brats, I have some friends who are amazing brats, but they all have in common this thing... when I say okay, calm down, they are able to go back to what I call 'normal' mode. #

[2021/05/09 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli: I agree Miss Becky, there are bratty subs that will use that moniker to justify almost any act as "what did you expect?"

[2021/05/09 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli: But most do know when it's going too far and will tone it down.

[2021/05/09 08:28]  StevieBlue: But what is bratty behavior?

[2021/05/09 08:29]  Vanni Cannoli: Here I'll give you an example I read about a while ago in a bit of reading on this

[2021/05/09 08:29]  Vanni Cannoli: Master looks at his girl and says "Go make coffee."

[2021/05/09 08:29]  Vanni Cannoli: She says "OK!"

[2021/05/09 08:29]  Vanni Cannoli: She gets up, goes in the kitchen, Master can smell the coffee being made.

[2021/05/09 08:29]  Vanni Cannoli: She comes back in the living room and sits down.

[2021/05/09 08:29]  Vanni Cannoli: Master says "Hey, where's my coffee?"

[2021/05/09 08:30]  Vanni Cannoli: Brat looks at him and says "WELL YOU SAID make coffee. You didn't say anything about wanting a cup."

[2021/05/09 08:30]  Vanni Cannoli: That's bratty behavior.

[2021/05/09 08:31]  Vanni Cannoli: the line will always be "WELL YOU SAID"

[2021/05/09 08:31]  Vanni Cannoli: see what's happening with the Brat is they are always a step ahead of the Dom/me

[2021/05/09 08:31]  Sam Cabot: Ii would go with go bring my belt, but that's just me. lol

[2021/05/09 08:32]  Vanni Cannoli: ah but you see, Sir, that if the Brat knew that it would lead to "funishment" that would be exactly the case

[2021/05/09 08:33]  Vanni Cannoli: The article also said that a Dom/mes greatest fear is when their brat is just sitting or kneeling on the floor, looking at them with a smile.

[2021/05/09 08:33]  Vanni Cannoli: The proper thought is "what the fuck is coming NOW?

[2021/05/09 08:34]  Vanni Cannoli: So I hope that answers the question about "bratty behavior!"

[2021/05/09 08:35]  Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You are up please! *kneels and smiles*

[2021/05/09 08:35]  Ballard: I'm confused.  Being a Master, am I allowed to be confused?  Perhaps not.  So let me go with 'eclectic', or even better, 'variotous' (which while not a word is a word if I say so, because, well, I'm a Master!).  I enjoy women with a strong sense of them selves, a strong personality, and intelligence.  I like sassy, smart, and fun.  I also want variety.  If you know my girls you know they are all very different from each other.  All that said, I have my own definition of brats. 

 I am not fond of being openly contradicted, insulted, and denied.  Brat to me was always a negative term, because to me it means disrespectful, even hurtful, as a way of topping from the bottom and taking control.  I have  seen it used as a way for a sub to dictate terms of the relationship.  I realize that there is a less pejorative version of 'brat'.  Playful, sassy, smart,  I like.  Defiant, disobedient, insulting, I do not. 

 ((The reciprocal on Vanni's coffee story is if she brought a cup, he slaps it out of her hand.  "I said make it, not bring it."  Is that a DBrat?))#

[2021/05/09 08:36]  Vanni Cannoli: LOL!!

[2021/05/09 08:37]  Vanni Cannoli: What I would say, Master Ballard, is it takes a certain kind of Dominant to deal with a bratty sub. Some just absolutely love them.

[2021/05/09 08:37]  Vanni Cannoli: And yes, cheeky, sassy and such is not really "bratty" although some might think as such.

[2021/05/09 08:37]  Ballard: It is always a balance, of course

[2021/05/09 08:38]  Ballard: compatibility is the key.

[2021/05/09 08:38]  Vanni Cannoli: I think there are some Dominants that like the "push" and the unpredictability that a brat brings.

[2021/05/09 08:39]  Vanni Cannoli: But in the end, they want to be obeyed, and a bratty sub does in the end want to be Dominanted, it's just a matter of degree from what I can see

[2021/05/09 08:39]  Ballard: Also, if I may add.

[2021/05/09 08:40]  Ballard: Sometimes a sub will act bratty to test a D, and see if they react  in a way that enhances the feeling of submission.

[2021/05/09 08:40]  Vanni Cannoli: Right, Master Ballard!

[2021/05/09 08:41]  Vanni Cannoli: Also I think it bears mentioning that like anything, "bratiness" exists on a spectrum, from slightly brat to full on, raging brat, and everything in between.

[2021/05/09 08:42]  Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Master Ballard!

[2021/05/09 08:42]  Vanni Cannoli: Laila, go ahead please

[2021/05/09 08:43]  Laila Raines: I have often noticed 'bratiness' in the context of the DaddyDom/babygirl dynamic we discussed last week. Does anyone have an example of a brat outside this dynamic?

[2021/05/09 08:43]  Ballard: I do.

[2021/05/09 08:43]  Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please, Sir.

[2021/05/09 08:45]  Ballard: I knew a slave in Gor, many years ago.  She liked public whippings and humiliation.  Once she saw me strip and whip a free woman, and she bustled right over and begged my collar.  I did not right away, but we interacted.  She acted out often, trying to get public humiliation, and S&M.   She threatened that if she didn't get what she wants she would try to embarrass me.

[2021/05/09 08:46]  Ballard: Since then I have made it a huge rule to my girls:  "Never do anything to embarrass me."

[2021/05/09 08:46]  Vanni Cannoli: I don't think, Master Ballard, she was really a sub at all.

[2021/05/09 08:47]  Becky Summerland: not even a brat

[2021/05/09 08:47]  Vanni Cannoli: That sounds to me like an attention seeking little prig that used D/s to get what she wanted.

[2021/05/09 08:47]  Ballard: I agree.

[2021/05/09 08:47]  Vanni Cannoli: That would a real, perfect, textbook case of "Topping from the Bottom" indeed

[2021/05/09 08:49]  Vanni Cannoli: Dani, as many of you know, here in Xaara is a self-professed "brat" and she says that bratiness keeps it "interesting" but she also recognizes her submission

[2021/05/09 08:50]  Vanni Cannoli: /me sees a couple people typing and waits a moment before going back to Laila's question

[2021/05/09 08:50]  Sam Cabot: Once in a while I run into a 'sub' who says something to the effect of "I've been a bad girl, whip me" I tell them it make you a masochist, not a sub.

[2021/05/09 08:50]  Vanni Cannoli: Yes, exactly Sir!

[2021/05/09 08:51]  Vanni Cannoli: Mea Culpa! Mea maxima Culpa!

[2021/05/09 08:51]  Sam Cabot: /me fingers his belt and grins at Vanni.

[2021/05/09 08:52]  Vanni Cannoli: /me gets the belt and tosses it in the rubbish bin..."WELL YOU SAID get the belt, you never said what to do with it! I used my best judgment....Master...."

[2021/05/09 08:53]  Sam Cabot: Harry, my point was, those "sub's" are ordering me to whip them. THAT is what makes them not subby, not the being bad part.

[2021/05/09 08:54]  Vanni Cannoli: So back to Laila, I think the "Babygirl" and the "Brat" might have some crossover, but "Brat" is definitely more stand alone. A sub can be bratty but not have then cute, teen kind of vibe going.

[2021/05/09 08:55]  Vanni Cannoli: From what I see of Babygirl, they want to be cherished and nurtured, and being really "bratty" would sort of be pushing from that

[2021/05/09 08:55]  Vanni Cannoli: That said, certainly Babygirls can be sassy and "teen like"

[2021/05/09 08:55]  Vanni Cannoli: so maybe that's what gets some confusion going.

[2021/05/09 08:55]  Vanni Cannoli: I think, I could be really off base lol

[2021/05/09 08:56]  Vanni Cannoli: Good question!

[2021/05/09 08:56]  Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up please!

[2021/05/09 08:57]  Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,Typing and trying to keep up with text. To try to get things in order. Please forgive me

 A little background on me in Real World First:

 When I lost my husband to cancer after 24 years living together and he was my soul mate. When I lost him I was lost because I knew I belonged in the lifestyle. I ran into my old band teacher from high school and he told me that  he was really a sub. He had me put him over my knees and I spanked with with paddles and my hand. He turned me on to Fetlife.

 If I don't have a strong Dom/Master here in Secondlife or Real I will top from the bottom. I can be a little brat and tell the Dom/Master that is not the way to do it. "I would say do this or that in a demanding voice and a little over the top. I once in a while forget I am the sub and become a little rude at times. I need to be called out for my bad behavior and taught what i need to work on becoming a good sub by giving up and surrendering  and giving the Dom/Master the structure and control to train me on

[2021/05/09 08:57]  Aspen Diamond:  how to act. I am learning allot by doing the logs I don't like being disrespectful to any Dom/Master/Mistress which has gotten me into hot water in the past.

 I liked what Miss Becky said about brats because I do that. I call it spinning from one point to the other point.. I love that Master Ballard puts it the way he does. I have a strong since of self, I do have a strong personality and trying to educate myself on my intelligence. Yes am sassy, smart, and fun once you really get to know me. Once in a while my top (me) will come out and please forgive for that, a giggle.  My humor is very dry at time with a smile.

  I will submit to the right Dom/Master on bending knees when he comes along

[2021/05/09 08:58]  Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, just so you know, you can be both a Top and a Submissive at the same time, just not to the same person.

[2021/05/09 08:58]  Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops in my RL community is also a slave to their Mistress.

[2021/05/09 08:59]  Vanni Cannoli: And Mo/e also has a boi that they are in a kinky relationship with.

[2021/05/09 08:59]  Vanni Cannoli: Point is, pure binaries in humanity just don't exist.

[2021/05/09 09:00]  Vanni Cannoli: And also, being sassy isn't being "bratty" necessarily

[2021/05/09 09:02]  Vanni Cannoli: At the club I have subby boys ask me to beat the f**k out of them...which I'll do, but then I want to make them dinner lol

[2021/05/09 09:02]  Vanni Cannoli: Anyway, good points Aspen, as always, thank you!

[2021/05/09 09:03]  Brianne: It seems to me that being a brat takes a lot of energy to always be coming up with ways to 'beat' their Dominant.  Is that true?  Or does brattiness come so naturally that it's the default condition and takes effort to avoid?  (I consider myself as 'cheeky', not sure what others see.)

[2021/05/09 09:04]  Vanni Cannoli: Actually that's a good question, I think it does take energy to do that, and I have also seen that most brats are usually wired up pretty tight and energetic

[2021/05/09 09:04]  Vanni Cannoli: so maybe it's how they release that energy?

[2021/05/09 09:09]  Vanni Cannoli: I think the Sassy type is just fun and likes making people laugh, while the Brat is always looking for some limit to push or situation to create some minor chaos, just to keep the dynamic going and "interesting"

[2021/05/09 09:11]  Becky Summerland: I believe I've met most of the types of brats... many are high geared, highly brilliant people, some of the best scripters and creators of SL, in BDSM are excellent brats... they need to let poor out that excess of energy... but, they are briliant, so they understand all is in balance... I could go in many shades of the spectrum, some, just need attention and its the way they found to come out of the lot... its how they are noticed in a sea of half naked girls... then, you have the other end, people who are frustrated and cynic, we find them funny and entertaining until their mean side comes out... they are usually very charming at first, they will attract many to them... so, its not one size fits all, but its a resume of the experiences I've had and seen of brats... many amazing people that are often misjudged... come back next week for the follow up ;p

[2021/05/09 09:12]  Vanni Cannoli: All very said MIss Becky, and will be saved for posterity on the blog! :)

[2021/05/09 09:12]  Vanni Cannoli: I agree with Your view that it's a giant spectrum and never "one size fits all"

[2021/05/09 09:13]  Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go back to Master Ballard please!

[2021/05/09 09:13]  Ballard: .

 Becky said:

 [08:53] Becky Summerland (Becky Koolhoven): It means not to judge and try to put labels on others Harry ♥ be what you are and be happy love ♥

 I really want to support that sentiment.  In order to talk about things, which we  love to do, we use labels and terms.  Yet within each category or term there is a broad spectrum of people.  One's person's brat may be someone else's ideal sub.  I said some negative things about brats, because I tend to agree that many of them are not really submissives, they just want a specific form of play.  That is very unfair to some others that may call themselves a brat, but really do want to be dominated.  #

[2021/05/09 09:14]  Vanni Cannoli: Yes, I agree there is a difference between the "Bratty, Snarky Bottom" and the Bratty Sub, Master Ballard.

[2021/05/09 09:14]  Becky Summerland: Exactly Ballard, like some call themselves dominants are not really... to each their own, unless one is named official police of SL BDSM

[2021/05/09 09:15]  Sam Cabot: The important thing is to be who you are and try to educate yourself. We don't need to fit into anyone's definition of anything.

[2021/05/09 09:16]  Vanni Cannoli: The Bratty Sub really does want to be dominated, they just need a person that is going to put up with how they go about pushing buttons. In that article I read, the brat writing it said something like "I really am a sub and I really will obey you, just get me TO obey you." Again, that's not a type that many or even most Dominants are looking for, but some just like that severe challenge.

[2021/05/09 09:16]  Becky Summerland: agreed Sam, and we can always choose who we will interact with, so lets do our thing and be happy, help those we can, wish good luck to the others, they have the right to their lives and choices as we do

[2021/05/09 09:17]  Vanni Cannoli: One last thing I wanted to point out: brats are almost exclusively female subs.

[2021/05/09 09:17]  Vanni Cannoli: I'm wondering if I've ever seen a real bratty male sub.

[2021/05/09 09:18]  Becky Summerland: I have seen one Vanni, he is an excellent pony, and actually comes here occasionally... but, I have a hard time finding even that one

[2021/05/09 09:18]  Candice Svenska: mmm Impy can be naughty :)

[2021/05/09 09:19]  Vanni Cannoli: I don't think Impy is a Brat, he adores Miss Nej and does obey her. He's just a fun, cheeky guy

[2021/05/09 09:19]  Vanni Cannoli: I've known Impy a *long* time away from here

[2021/05/09 09:19]  ღ Pandora  ღ: take care A/all and thank you

[2021/05/09 09:20]  Becky Summerland: stay safe Orion/Pandora ♥

[2021/05/09 09:20]  Candice Svenska: be well Sir Orion

[2021/05/09 09:20]  Vanni Cannoli: Happy Mothers Day to all Mothers, thank Y/you all for coming, and next week we'll get to Switches!

 

"Babygirls and Littles" -- May 2, 2021

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So today we continue our discussion of the types of D/s relationship with a look at the DaddyDom/Babygirl dynamic, and the less common but still valid other gendered types of that (such as "Mommy/Babygirl" etc

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: I want to specify something before we get into this

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: This is a very different idea that "Ageplay"

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: At least in the BDSM/sex version of it

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: That's forbidden in SL, even though I'm sure it still goes on sub rosa

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: And DD/Bg is also different than "Littles" which we will touch on at the end if we have time

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: So with that said, there are a number of people that really enjoy the dynamic in the DaddyDom/Babygirl (or other) kind of dynamic.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Last week we talked about differences between Dom/me and sub and Master/Mistress and Slave

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: And based on my observation, the DD/Bg dynamic is a far cry from Master/Slave (or other forms)

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: I'm not sure polar opposite, but definitely a very, very different dynamic

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So as we open the talk here, I have two questions: 1) is there A/anyone here that is into this dynamic (in any gender form), and 2) What are thoughts on it, either from those folks, or in general?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Is this something Y/you enjoy, Y/you would consider, or perhaps for a reason avoid for your own reasons?

[08:23] Ballard: c

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You can start us off please!

[08:28] Ballard: This topic is almost never received with emotional neutrality.  I have already granted permission to one person to leave if she starts to feel triggered.

DD/bg style is something I do not do.  Because of that I have studied it, talked to people, and even had to write up an essay for my Adept path.  The surprising result is that there are, in fact, some relations between this and Master slave.  both tend to encourage a strong sense of dependency, and carry elements of TPE.

Why don't I do it? A story may explain it best.  A few years ago when I came to Xaara there was a woman here that was a middie baby girl.  Damn she was cute!  She wore sweet dresses, and wore the right hair styles.  I was attracted.  But as we became friends I saw the teddy bear, and other aspects of the dynamic she seeks, and frankly I wanted her to grow up.  I want women.  My thing is adult, sexy, well dressed ladies.  More than that, the dependent nature of DD/bg is not something I'm looking for.  I prefer strong, decisive personalities. #

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: I understand that Master Ballard, and that's one of the reasons that some people feel less than comfortable around the dynamic.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: But to be fair, not all babygirls are the teddybear carrying, cute type

[08:30] Ballard: Oh no, they come in various styles.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: for example, I believe that Shy, Master Erik's girl, does the babygirl dynamic with Him, but she to my knowledge doesn't do the teddybear :)

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: But yes, I do get Your view on that, Sir. Thank You!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Aspen, please!

[08:32] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni

I am very confused because here in SL I was told that I am more like a baby girl. I was very surprised by that and was not sure what a baby girls acts like or with what kind of Master/Dom. I am very confused on this dynamic.. I have always known that I am a slave/sub. That is why the confusion. So is there two different types of baby girl.

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: "Babygirl" is really more of a generalized type of submissive, Aspen, as "DaddyDom" is a generalized type of Dominant. Or "Mommy" etc.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Which oddly enough brings us to Brianne and her questions

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: er question

[08:35] Brianne: Thank you, Vanni...

[08:36] Brianne: This may be the 'dumbest' question I've asked to date, but how does one tell if their a 'baby girl'?  I have been 'accused' of being in that dynamic but not sure if I'm into calling anyone 'Daddy'.  And I'm not a little girl, but it seems the cutenss and flirtiness and feigned innocence and somewhat-brattiness looks interesting.  It seems to overlap with Bimbo a little too.  Again, I'm just not sure of what people are talking about with these terms. #

[08:36] Ballard: c @ Bri

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: M/B! "Master/Bimbo!"

[08:36] Brianne: yaaas!

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: lol

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Well as I said with Aspen, maybe the comments will help to clarify, Brianne

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard has a comment toward your question so go ahead please Sir.

[08:38] Ballard: Don't let the labels mess you up.  Be you.    There is no script or program to follow if you enter a relationship,  only what the negotiations lead to.  So Bri, you have made yourself a cherished member of this community.  Any D would be damn lucky to engage with you.  Dont try to be something that you are not, just because people love labels.  #

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[08:39] Brianne: Thank you Sir, I will follow that advice closely

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's move on and see if more comments yield more insight!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Laila you are up please!

[08:41] Laila Raines: Similar to Aspen, I have always seen aspects of my submission as 'babygirl' but unlike Mister Ballard's experience, I do not carry a teddy or act in a childish manner, aka have temper tantrums. What I like about the dynamic is the feeling of nurturing I get from a DaddyDom. I feel very loved and protected. I feel like I am 'taught' things. I am spoiled and treated like a princess. I like pretty things and those are provided to me. In return, I do my best to grow each and every day. Some have mentioned to me that this does not make me a babygirl. That I am simply a sub that likes to be sassy on occasion. All I am is me and I look for those that fit well with that.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Amen!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Right on the money!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: And as Master Ballard said, external labels don't apply, we each come up with our own self-definitions

[08:42] Laila Raines smiles happily

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: and I would say, Laila, that what you are describing is the more common characteristics of "babygirl" that I have seen.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: And even when I seen a bg with a stuffed animal, they usually aren't acting like a 10 year old, it's just a cute thing to them

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: I think it's to create whimsy more than the idea they're a kid

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent comment, thank you! :)

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Sir Sam please

[08:44] Sam Cabot: You're right that DDlg does not have to be sexual. Not saying it can't be, but it's not an essential ingredient. I enjoy this dynamic with a couple girls. One of them is one my most cherished relationships on SL. We have an amazing dynamic. I can feel the difference between her "I'm fine daddy" and "I'm fine daddy" (yeah, they both 'read' the same). People can't believe that in a virtual world, where typed words can't show emotion, they do for me. I think protectiveness and tenderness, eagerness to nurture and encourage  are 3 of the driving factors in DDlg. To Brianne's point, yes, the cuteness, and playfulness also contribute to being seen as a babygirl. I find that within this dynamic, the D types like seeing their s type being carefree, and joyful. Without being disrespectful of course.#

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent comment as well Sir!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: I think the protection and nurture is what really earmarks this kind of D/s style, not that such doesn't exist in other forms, of course

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: But I think that's the centerpiece of it

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Just as a girl can usually turn to her biological daddy for that support, they connect it to a Dominant

[08:47] Brianne nods in agreement with Sir Sam

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: And of course, other stuff may happen that a bio "Daddy" won't do. *grins*

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You Sir!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sultry, please!

[08:48] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ-: Thanks, Vanni!  Well said, Laila!  My Master has told me that I am a slave first, submissive next and then there's a little bit of babygirl in me too.  I think the babygirl comes from me just needing a little intimacy that goes beyond the sexual act.  Or that babygirl is just part of my "sassy" as he also says.   I enjoy acting a little sweet but not childlike.  I think we all crave that a little. I am definitely a woman first and foremost.  My appearance may come off as "cute and sweet" sometimes but that is just an appearance and not who I am.  I like cute and pretty things but that does not make me cute and sweet!  In the end, my need is for the control and dominance of a Master. *grins*#

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Sultry!

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: And I agree that each dynamic is different, so some may have a great deal of the DD/Bg connection, others might have it as part of a mix of things

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Humans are dynamic, which is why we sociologists don't like making typologies of *people* but of *behaviors* that many people might connect with

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Very good comment, thank you!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Dae, you are up!

[08:51] Daelenie McMillan: Thajnk you, It's a bit of a ramble since I had to rewrite a couple times. Everyone has made several of the points I was thinking but here goess...

[08:52] Daelenie McMillan: Despite the facty I like dressing in ELlegant Gothic Lolita style once in a while, I have never been in a DD/bbg relationship. I do know several people that are and have but, I have never really understood it.

While I have known people in RP sims that play kids, the sons or daughters of other characters, I never understood that either. I don't judge though even if I would never do that type of RP. Although, I'm a dragon and a Cat sometimes so I figure it must be something like that. A total removal from your norm and a different mindset than the usual(?)

As for the bbg thing.. is it a feeling of being cherished and cared for that does it? I have seen many bbg that try the Way of the Brat and it works for them mostly. Sometimes it fails miserably. I have seen many who do the sweet and innocent but yeah, like aspen it confuses me too.

 Would I do a DD/bbg? I don't know, maybe if I met the right person and they wanted to do that. But like Aspen said, I don't realy know how to act that way. Kudo's to

[08:52] Daelenie McMillan:  those that are and can.

 sorry for the ramble it was just thoughts.

[08:52] Daelenie McMillan: It's realy just the questions I have to pose I guess.  In th eend thouogh if DD/bbg is your thing go for it!

[08:52] Daelenie McMillan: #

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: DaddyDom/BabyDragon?

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway I agree with what you said, and it's always clear that any dynamic that is enjoyed by five people will be a puzzle to five others

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: But as we've said here, each of us does it how it works for us

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: DD/Bg is enjoyed by many, and as long as everything is SSC, it's great!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Dae!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are back up please

[08:57] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni

I feel the same way as Brianne about NOT Calling a Master or Mistress Daddy and Mommy. I am a grown women.

Thank you Master Ballard for your comment. That helps me also look at this a different way. And yes it is oh how you set up your relationship with negotiations from the start. I know that I don't act in a childish manner but at time it is the emotions of words from that person saying things. That is what I get caught up in. No Tebby bears here.

I have always thought that D/s was the kind of protection and nurture to make her improve herself worth and serving her Master. D/s vs DD/s is that sex is a part of that relationship but it is the way it is set up I guess.

Sultry, you hit it right on the noes for me that is how I feel. First being the slave I am, the my submission and my submissive come next and them I guess the a little badygirl comes out. It is the Intimacy is what I crave for. I love trying to be sexy for my Master all of the time and meet his needs that he has.

[08:58] Brianne applauds!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: All well said

[08:58] harry: well said Aspen

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: and I want to reiterate that not all babygirls act like kids, it's more the protective/nurture kind of thing that drives the dynamic primarily

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: I guess it's more "where is the focus"

[09:00] Aspen Diamond: Yes!! and the focus is where it is Vanni

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead, Laila :)

[09:01] Laila Raines: I feel like the bigger part of the DD/bg dynamic is the Dom/me themselves. I tend to follow their lead. What are others thoughts on that?

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: anyone can answer without a C if Y/you wish

[09:02] Sir Jason Oi™: I would think that the D-type leads no matter what the specific flavor of power exchange

[09:02] Becky Summerland: I always cringe when someone implies its more the Domme or the sub... its a relationship and both have to put in who they are and build it together.#

[09:03] Daelenie McMillan: The "Daddy" would be, would have to be at least half the equation but for someone that identifies as a babygirl, she'd just be that way with or without. Maybe a bit more undirected without but it seems it's just part of that person to be that way. Just a thought though.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: I do tend to think it's both, as the sub has to be interested in that dynamic, Laila.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: I think a Dominant saying, minus negotiation "You're now a babygirl" would be abusive, just like a sub sort of demanding that in their interactions

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: but they work together on the dynamic and how they will interact

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: But as a sociologist I tend to think EVERYTHING humans do is pretty dynamic!

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: And synergistic

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for the question!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard we come back to You

[09:08] Ballard: Thank you Vanni, for this interesting topic.  I have RL work to do, and must be off.  One last comment I want to make is that because this dynamic is 'not my kink' I really like to hear people talk about it.  Only by listening can we be tolerant and empathetic.

I wish you all well!  My girls, I will be back later today.  #

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: I agree Master Ballard!

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Please go ahead Miss Becky

[09:11] Becky Summerland: Speaking from the perspective of a trainer, I get many demands for training and I refuse a lot of them, for this reason... You got to know who/what you are to train and get out of them the best of their abilities... it would be foolish to train a cat to be a dog and vice versa, so, if they are not into what you can train them to be, they better move on to another trainer and the trainer to another trainee... its simple maths, if what your possible partner enjoys is not what you can teach them or enjoy doing, it won't work. This can be said of every dynamics, even in the vanilla world. Some girls will never be babygirls, no matter how much you train them, and some dominants are not the nurturing type, so, they will never be a Mommynant or Daddynant.#

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Miss Becky!

[09:11] Lisa Summerland: Well said Love

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: The Scorpion will always surrender to its nature ;)

[09:12] Becky Summerland: so said the fox ;p

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Trying to be something we're not is pretty much never going to work

[09:13] Lisa Summerland: Be yourself, everyone else is taken

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: So I have a final point to make

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Babygirls (or the rarer boys) are different than Littles.

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: And by "Littles" I am NOT talking about the "Big Baby" fetish. That is very un-nerving to some so let's avoid that, please. By "Little" I mean a subby type that *really* likes acting like a kid, like in grade school.

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: One night my RL club got invaded by littles

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: A bunch of them showed up for an open community party

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: like 15 or so

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: they were running around yelling, screaming, roller skating

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: playing jacks and hopscotch

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: one brought in a red wagon and was giving rides

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: so the DMs herded them into one room and said they had to stay in there

[09:16] Sir Jason Oi™: I'd have wondered if someone spiked my beverage with acid

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: oh it was nuts

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: now that said, we do have some littles in my RL community that like to come in, dress in kid style clothes, ribbons in their hair, and sit in our "break room" and color and play with play dough

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: So most of them are in no way obnoxious

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: In general they say they somehow missed out on childhood, so being a kid in a bdsm setting lets them live what they missed

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: it was just that one night with the pack of them, Aspen, most of the littles I've encountered don't cause problems

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Also, based on my time in the RL community, I have not seen any of the littles doing anything sexual or kinky with anyone. it's mostly just acting like a kid and being able to enjoy that

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: If they do stuff at home, it's their issue

[09:20] Joanne: ((have a lovely day all, hugs and kisses))

[09:20] Becky Summerland: stay safe Joanne ♥

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: So I guess my point is that we often mix up Babygirl and Little, and they're really two different things

[09:21] Aspen Diamond: I am thinking that I can't control what is going on but be a where what is going around you that you can control.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: So thank Y/you all for coming!

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Next week we'll talk about everyone's favorite...the BRAT

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: and not the Bratwurst