Submissive vs Slave -- October 4, 2026

 [15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I have some starting exposition as usual

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so as I yap for a bit feel free to put in a C or a Q to the queue and then when I'm done we'll go down said queue

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we finish our probe..heh heh...she said probe...of the BDSM acronym and D/s in particular.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Starting in two weeks we will get to more general topics on BDSM and D/s.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Today is a discussion on the difference between a sub and a slave.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Along with the Brat, which was our topic two weeks ago, this is one of the more divisive topics one will find in reference to BDSM and D/s.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If you get on a BDSM forum, website or just talk to the kinky folks live, you'll get twenty different opinions from twenty different people on what it means to be a "sub" or a "slave" and whatever is between them.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So there is obviously no "right answer" here.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): What it means to be a sub, or a slave, or whatever we are, is a deeply personal thing for each of us.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But it's always good to get opinions and ideas about things. It's how we learn.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): As far as "sub vs slave", I'm sure we all agree there is some differentiation between the two. What is it?

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it some kind of quantifiable difference? "I'm a 3 on the slavery index while you're a 9?"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Pushes the Sociologist in me back in the box..."Bad index!"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it purely qualitative...if a person *feels* they are a slave or a sub, they are?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it something that requires people outside to look at a person and say "you are a sub/slave/whatever?"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And...one final thought...what is it that attracts Dominants to a certain kind of person...sub to slave? What are the expectations?

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I will not give my opinion on this now, I want to hear the ideas of the August Assembly.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And of course we will all respect the differences we might have, we are just kicking the can around. :)

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok elara, you are up first when ready!

 

[15:49] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): I have served in both capacities, some time ago as a gorean slave, but the most recent being that of a slave in a 24/7 dynamic both 2L and carrying over into my real life.  I can only speak from my experiences, which may not fit the ‘definition’ of what a “slave” is and when I do it is in reference to my most recent experience.  I think it’s important to mention that the ‘conditions’ of my slavery were only truly set in place when my Master and I had a close enough relationship that I could put the amount of trust into His hands that I did.  So when I say that I had no limits, and I had no choices, it was with the trust that He would breach no former limit of mine or make a choice for me that was going to intentionally harm me physically, psychologically or harm O/our relationship. In short, He had been a Master the majority of His life, knew what He was doing in terms of what it takes to be responsible, even if His slave lived on the other side of the world.  It felt “free” to not have to make choices (realistically the important ones. I wasn’t going to be texting Him all day about what flavor of ice cream to get), and quite frankly arousing to hand over myself entirely to One who had only my best interests in mind, knowing that only when I was healthy and happy, could I truly serve Him and meet His needs.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent!

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I find interesting that you saw it as he made the essential decisions for what you did together and how to serve him, while at the same time you weren't expecting him to tell you what ice cream to get or what lipstick to wear on Tuesday afternoon.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): (by the way it's Neapolitan and Berry Red from Revlon...we'll talk later) :P

 

[15:52] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Try the fish!

 

[15:52] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): Lol

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's really good elara, and now as  you explore Xaara as a submissive I'd take it the power exchange is more "what you are willing to give" for now?

 

[15:53] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): Yes, Miss Vanni.  I"ve had to reacclimate myself into realizing my limits all over again, among other things

 

[15:54] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): Just to me it is a question of permanence and depth of commitment. I have play sessions with Subs and consideration collars perhaps, a slave to me is one that has a permanent collar and deep commitment to longevity and depth of trust but it is I agree a simplification.

 

[15:54] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): sorry accidentally hit send

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Elara, and I'm glad  you're happy here and can explore!

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok now we come to Cee ;)

 

[15:54] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): Just to me it is a question of permanence and depth of commitment. I have play sessions with Subs and consideration collars perhaps, a slave to me is one that has a permanent collar and deep commitment to longevity and depth of trust but it is I agree a simplification.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's understandable Cee.

 

[15:55] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am a slave on the other side of the slash #

 

[15:55] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Q For Cee

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So you would expect a submissive that took your collar to be a slave to you?  I'm just asking for clarification.

 

[15:56] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): not at all

 

[15:56] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): First we would have to compare definitions and wants and needs #

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): nods

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Makes sense, Nawa you had a question for Cee?  go ahead

 

[15:58] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Yes, I would assume the level of commitment and depth of trust is gained with time?

 

[15:58] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes

 

[15:58] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): So you would not be having a slave first you would have a submisive who will in time grow to a slave?

 

[15:59] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I guess I would also say to me a sub MAY be collared or not a slave is always collared

 

[15:59] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes Nawa

 

[15:59] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Thank you! #´

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cee!  Great comments so far!

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Kendra we come to you please!

 

[16:00] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): I looked up a definition, and I got "A slave is a person who is legally owned as property by another, deprived of personal freedom, and forced to provide unpaid labor or services under the threat of violence or coercion."  Thinking of my personal situation, that pretty much matches.... I've been sold a few times without my consent, don't have any choices (but my owners have granted me privileges) and I'm forced to work for free.

 

[16:01] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): I would say that's in addition to being a sub. #

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  gets some mops and brooms ready then...

 

[16:01] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): So.. in other words, a sub can chose their master, a slave cannot?  As a distinction between the two

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It should be understood, of course, that no one can be a *legal* slave -- slavery is forbidden in any nation, understanding that illegal human traifficking and slavery still goes on.

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So slavery is something more...social.

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexis, sometimes a slave is sold to another...but...that would have to be in Kendra's limits too.

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If I in theory "owned" her I couldn't simply sell her minus her having some form of consent, and she would have to trust me i would not sell her to a freak that would harm her.

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so that level of trust is super-high.

 

[16:04] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): C at Kendra

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): quick the queue is large, go Nawa

 

[16:05] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Its just regarding the consent part, if you have given your freedom freely without initial coercion than wouldnt you say you have given consent?

 

[16:05] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Okay, I get it. Kendra said 'Sold without my consent', but that doesn't necessarily mean 'against my limits'

 

[16:06] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): Yes, it was a path I wanted to go down, and I like it.

 

[16:06] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): c

 

[16:06] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): CNS, but still consensual

 

[16:06] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Thank you!

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): CNC yes :)

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Kendra thanks!  Great comment!

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia to you please

 

[16:07] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): i Can only qualify the difference based on my Gorean experience. ALL submissives ..persae....were SLAVES, there were/was no other option. As a Slave...you were not seen as a person, but as livestock. To which they could do ANYTHING they wanted to, and you had absolutely NO right to say NO. to do so could...and sometimes did lead to you being killed or maimed in some fashion. It did not matter if you were a kennel slave, or privately owned. ALL the above applied....Which included being sold or rented to anyone.....regardless of how you might feel about them.

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good point

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and to some Gorean "slavery" is indeed the "gold standard"

 

[16:08] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Grins at Mistress.

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But I also think that 'round these here parts our idea of a "slave" might be considerably softer

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And of course in SL no one has to put up with something they find intolerable.  Worst case the little "x" at the top is the final "safeword."

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): all very well said, thank you Hestia!

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan we come to you please!

 

[16:10] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): To me, the difference is the degree of control.  A sub is more of a partner with rules, subordinate, but still a partner.  A slave is a sub who desires to give up control, whether to a dgree or totally.  My current two have a desire to give up total control.  Thus they are restricted to certain places and have rules in terms of dress, activities, and even have "chores" to do. I still abode by their limits and they do have a say if they wish to end the arrangement, but it is fulfilling a need of theirs to give up control to go "deep" as my one says....  so to me, it is the degree of control and can dovetail with a TPE relationship quite well.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right, well said

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee hold on please

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan when we look at power exchange, I agree it's not "either/or" whatever our Gorean friends might think

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "You are free or slave, nothing in between "

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): or "you are sub or slave, nothing in between" in non-Gor

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Power exchange is a spectrum

 

[16:13] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  nods

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and only the sub/slave and the Dominant can really define it for themselves and between themselves, so I agree myself with what you said

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cyan, good comment!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne we come to you please

 

[16:14] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I've been asked to take both slaves and subs under command. In every case, the slaves desired to have minimal autonomy about aspects of the M/s relationship. To the greatest extent possible they sought to cede their ability to revoke consent (within a SSC environment). So they invested that trust either from the ouutset or over time in each case. In general subs have more areas of their live to which they do not grant access. For me, consent still must be explicit at some point.Whether it is a well-considered step to renounce control needs to be worked through on a case by case basis. Gorean is a different case as it is an alien world with its own values and norms. Goreans cannot judge Earthe norms and vice versa. We speak different languages in these matters.

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): right, people doing Gorean RP are in a totally different "universe"....very poorly written books but still "different" :P

 

[16:15] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): nods

 

[16:16] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): almost incalculable differences

 

[16:16] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu):  nods "very different"

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Y'all do know there are RL "goreans"...they try to live their lives according to Norman's philosophy

 

[16:16] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): nods

 

[16:16] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  nods

 

[16:16] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu):  nods "remembering Sol"

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I was looking at one of their message boards years ago -- the Masters were chatting about if their kajira women (wives/girlfriends) should vote or not

 

[16:17] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): it is different when there are no other alternatives and where earth girls were kidnapped and sold into Gor as uneducated slaves to who everything just 'happened'

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Most thought no

 

[16:17] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Yes i know a couple RL..and they SAY the live Gorean...but they really do not

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): One said "how about we fill out their ballots for them" and they all *loved* that idea

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so right, how the gorean folks go is their biz and more power to them!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll stay on earth and decide what outfit to wear tyvm

 

[16:18] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): it is a slave dimension that muddies the water for a lot of folk

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Shayne!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexis we come to you please!

 

[16:18] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): So, I think my philosophy on sub/slave is the difference is somatic, they are both 'fantasies' that we want to experience as 'real' as we can accept. The difference then is in degree and depth of what limits are set. So it comes down to the connotations those labels have... being labeled a 'slave' has a very different feel to having a 'submissive' title. One suggests a far more powerful dynamic than the other... even if there isn't any difference in real terms of how they act or play. I am a 'sub'... who also loves being a 'slave' too... n#

 

[16:19] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ

 

[16:19] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): nods nods

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Really it's a social construction of reality....what "slave" means to one might be "sub" to another, or vice-versa

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): As long as 1) limits are respected and 2) care is taken , what people wanna call themselves is really their decision

 

[16:21] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Exactly, but -what- you call each other matters... at least to yourselves

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Because to Hestia's point, here at least, even in an M/s relationship that's healthy, we understand limits are understood and followed, even if 99% of the rest of the decision making is given to the Dom in the power exchange

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): of course Lexis

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good points!!

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Nawa we come to you please

 

[16:22] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): I have never been in RP for gor, I do not know what it must be like to be a slave without any consent being given, but i have been a slave in D/s Dynamics, in rl and in time i didn't need to have limits, they were of my Master´s knowledge from the beginning and therefore no longer necessary to enter into discussion, i agree with Miss Cyan, TPE is giving total control over to your Master, something that submissives can and should also do to the extent they are comfortable with, the only difference to me in being a slave is the commitment and the level of control established from the growth of the dynamic, summing it up, i do not believe in slavery from the get go, for me that type of dynamic takes time and knowledge of each other. That’s my personal opinion, #

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that's a very good point Nawa

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): trust builds, the need to "hold back" reduces, and the power exchange increases

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): where that ends is up to each person

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good points, Nawa thank you!

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): All these comments are really solid!

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): OK Cee...go ahead

 

[16:25] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am a slave, I have not given consent to be sold or mistreated on any way. I think the strict definition of slave in the dictionary covers RL slaves throughout the world not BDSM slaves who have limits

 

[16:26] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I AM a SLAVE, I have limits, a collar, I select my own clothes (He says I have better taste). We do shop together and he has my trust of 2 years before collar#

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Well that's why slavery is illegal worldwide and we go after human trafficker scum with vigor

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): in the BDSM world even a "slave" certainly has rights, all human have rights.  so we respect basic human rights and we want ethical dominants that care for their slave

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Believe me I'd care very well for the slave doing all my housework!  lol

 

[16:29] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  grins and nods

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "excellent floor-mopping slave, have cheesecake!"

 

[16:29] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes

 

[16:29] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): and that would be their payoff

 

[16:29] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Wait, cheescake?....

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  giggles

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee good points, thank you!

 

[16:29] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I might do that, myself!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Titan we come to you please!

 

[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): Thank you   Did I hear.... Cherry Cheesecake?

 

[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): I thank you all for allowing me to be here with you today..  I don't have much to say..  but offer up this from my side of the dominant and my observance... a couple of quotes...from Herman Hesse

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  looks at Titan....

 

[16:30] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Perks up..."Food?"

 

[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): First....  "It is not our purpose to become each other; it is to recognize each other, to learn to see the other and honor him for what he is."

 

[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and I change that to "him" or "her"

 

[16:31] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and.. second...  this..  as well. "Some of us think holding on makes us strong; but sometimes it is letting go."

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with that!

 

[16:31] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and final quote from Thomas Edison...   “I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” ― Thomas A. Edison

 

[16:32] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu):  sniffs looking around... Cheesecake.... with Strawberry's.... mmmmm

 

[16:32] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and with a comment on that..  we fail miserably at times..  but we come up only muddied..    wash off. and stand tall..

 

[16:33] Titan (Titan Hawksby): thank you for allowing me to comment and participate.. I settle back comfortably and a pleasure to meet you all

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you Titan!

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I love Hesse's work, good quotes

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cheesecake is good, but lemon cake will turn me into a ...wait I can't let out my secrets....

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): belay that cake

 

[16:34] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu):  giggles

 

[16:34] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): chuckles

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): excellent thanks!

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): MansooR we come to you please

 

[16:35] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so slave/sub is a spectrum........i still dont get what in abolute terms (not the dictionasy meaning) is for a slave.....in other words.. who is a 100% slave?

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Do you mean in the legal way of understanding it?

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): no.. not legal.. in the 'osicla aspect of bdsm'

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): social

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Well there is no "100% agreed upon definition"

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): one person's slave is another person's sub, and vice-versa

 

[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): great...:)

 

[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): nods..just wanted that to be cleared

 

[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thanks#

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Now on Gor....well...there it's either/or *grins*

 

[16:38] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): does that mean we don't really have the language we think we have?

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It means we construct terms based on our psychology and social meaning created via discourse

 

[16:38] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): *nods in agreement

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  pulls out the powerpoint and prepares to go on about "communicative action" :P

 

[16:39] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): to me that is part of a negotiation when a power relationship is the goal

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly!

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Dynamics change over time too, as Nawa pointed out

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): What starts as "Dominant/sub" can become "M/s" or vice versa

 

[16:40] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Its the difference between literal and figurative... someone who says they are '100% slave' is speaking figuratively... because they love the idea of being that..., it's their fantasy. And I'm not going to piss on their chips... to use a vulgar English colloquialism

 

[16:40] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): change?? NO my ducks must be in a row!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): humans are dynamic creatures

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol lexis

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks MansooR!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee back to you

 

[16:40] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): Would you like the FetLife definition of slave?

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): sure

 

 

[16:40] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): In BDSM, a slave is usually person who gives up total control to someone who they are in an agreed-upon dynamic and/or relationship with. The term slave is not gender specific. You can use “female slave” or “male slave” to make a distinction between genders.

 

[09:40] Cee (purringfox.mcmillan): In BDSM, a slave is usually person who gives up total control to someone who they are in an agreed-upon dynamic and/or relationship with. The term slave is not gender specific. You can use “female slave” or “male slave” to make a distinction between genders.

 

While all slaves are submissive, the term often implies a deeper level of authority granted to the dominant partner, sometimes called a Master.

 

In these dynamics, the slave may agree to give the Dominant significant influence over aspects of their life, such as behavior, appearance, routines, or other personal choices. But these arrangements are still based on consensual agreements and negotiated boundaries.

 

The term is often used to signal a strong commitment to service and authority within the dynamic, rather than a universally defined set of rules. What “slave” means can vary widely between individuals and relationships.

 

Slave is a self-chosen BDSM identity, not a level that someone "graduates" to by submitting enough. Some people use it to express ownership, devotion, service, or extensive power exchange. Others may practice equally intense submission and strongly prefer never to use the word. #

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's all well said!

 

[16:42] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I love their Kinksionary

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I appreciate the "consensual agreements and negotiated boundaries" part, because even a self-described slave went into the thing consensually and still has human boundaries

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): which is what a trafficked "slave" does NOT have as all their consent and human dignity has been ripped from them....grrrrr

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  won't describe what she would like to see happen to human traffickers.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cee!

 

[16:44] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yvw

 

[16:44] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): bet it's not give 'em cheescake

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne you get the last comment for today

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): oh yes...with rat poison mixed in!

 

[16:46] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): viewed from outside their power relationship, it is important to remind ourselves that we are outside it and really understand that it is what they chose for themselves. It makes them happier and more appreciative of their power play.

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right agreed!

 

[16:47] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  nods

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): it might not be for us, but what makes people happy, as long as the C in SSC and RACK (consent) is followed....it's all good!

 

[16:48] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): ... you put that way better than I did... and no chips were harmed

 

[16:48] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): whew

 

[16:48] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): C standing for CNC in my case :)

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): indeed!

 

[16:48]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Thank you for attending this discussion.

 

[16:48]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): The tracker is now off and the floor is open to everyone.

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok great discussion everyone!

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): In two weeks our topic will be "Third Party Consent"

Brats! -- September 20, 2026

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): This is the last discussion in the "BDSM" acronym series that we started in March believe it or not!

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): when we gather in two weeks we'll start a series of more general discussions, of which I have many topics

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but as knowledge builds on knowledge, what we have discussed here will inform future discussions, so don't hit "erase" as I tell my students!

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we discuss a very misunderstood kind of submissive....The Brat!

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I of course have some prepared exposition so as I ramble, feel free to put in a C or a Q, and then we'll get to the queue.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): After "Babygirls" which we discussed a bit ago, Brats tend to cause the most consternation.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a very deep love/hate kind of feeling toward Brats -- one loves them or one wants to strap them to a neutron bomb

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Now to be clear, a Brat is not just a "cheeky sub"

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): A Cheeky sub has a sense of humor, might say some off the wall, sarcastic things, or have some interesting behaviors that could rub people the wrong way, but doesn't take things to the level of The Brat.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Brats are also often referred to by others as "Attention Whores"

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Which may be in a way true, as Brats are usually finding new and improved ways to keep their Dominant on their toes and "make things more fun"...involving some new screwball kind of behavior.

 

[15:46] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): nods

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ): So the attention to detail is often the important part here

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Here is an example I've used before, some of you have heard it so don't ruin the punchline!

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Master HottDude says to his Bratty slave "Go make me coffee"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Bratty Slave says "Yes Master!" and runs into the kitchen.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): He can smell the coffee brewing and smiles.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Ten minutes later, she comes back in the living room minus coffee, and plops back on the couch.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Master HottDude says "Hey...where's my coffee?"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and here it comes....

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ): She looks back with an incredulous look and says, loudly, "WELL YOU SAID to *make* coffee. You didn't say you want any!"

 

[15:48] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:48] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): perfect

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Perfect

 

[15:48] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): groans once again

 

[15:48] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): facepalm

 

[15:48] Seli (Seliara Elton): slow claps

 

[15:48] Jenine BloodBane (Illana Kuu): laughs

 

[15:48] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): nods in agreement. proper response.

 

[15:48] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I know that girl!

 

[15:48] Jenine BloodBane (Illana Kuu): I'd never.... *halo*

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh

 

[15:48] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Did that to an officer once. lol

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): A few years ago I read an article online about how the worst thing the owner of a Brat can ever see is to walk into his  living room and see his Bratty Sub kneeling on the floor...smiling...

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): He should expect the house to collapse in the next five minutes

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Unlike the smart-alek, cheeky sub, the Brat is always looking for a new and improved way to "make things more fun" and keep the activity rolling.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Dominants that can't handle Brats are completely perplexed by this....WHY would a Dominant want to put up with such a person who is endlessly finding ways to contravene orders or do insane things?

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That said...Brats are misunderstood by people so perplexed.

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): They do intend to obey and serve...but what I have been told by Brats and read on their worldview is something like this..."I will obey but not to anyone.  Why should I just 'obey' in a mindless, rote way?  Make me obey and I will."

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and the kind of Dom  that appreciates Brats are the ones that like being 'kept on their toes' so to speak, so they have to find new and improved ways to gain that obedience.

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Before I turn  things over....what people consensually do is their biz.  If a sub is a Brat or not, or a Dom wants to have a Brat as a sub or not, is all their personal choice.  As long as things are SSC and fall under RACK and PRICK rules, what people do is their concern and all we really want here is understanding and happiness for everyone.]

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We don't have to understand or even like something to say "ok, you do you, all's good!"

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): After all, Vanillas look at all of us the very same way.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): With all that said, the questions for the August Assembly today are: 1) Are YOU a Brat, and if so, what "excitement" do you like bringing your Dominant (or, if you are not one, what zany stuff have you seen Brats do?) and 2) If You are a Dominant who likes Brats, or dislikes them, why? What is it about a Brat that either attracts You or instantly repels You?

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and let's of course keep this friendly even if we don't get it

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): First I'm going to go back to Katie's comment, let me repeat it'

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): [08:49] Katie (katiewalsh1993): C: I've been guilty of somewhat bratty behavior.. maybe.. never convicted onit though.. if you can subvert instructions given somewhat literally with whatever wiggle room you can fin then you're on the way~

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Katie may I ask a follow up on that?

 

[15:56] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): Yes?

 

[15:56] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): resists the urge to specify the can you/may you thing

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So I think you're saying you might look for ways to find that "wiggle room?"  Like the sub in my example with the coffee?  Is that sort of "subversion?"

 

[15:58] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): Yup, find the room within the language to exploit things a bit and take it in an unexpected direction~ Makes things more dynamic

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): There you go!

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): More fun!

 

[15:59] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): Technically I have done nothing wrong~ Monkeys paw and stuuf!~

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And i know some Dominants are like "how exactly is that 'fun?'"

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right...she did what she was told, make coffee!

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If he had said "bring me coffee" she likely would  have brought the can of coffee to him

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "Here you go!"

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Katie thanks! ♥

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok we now move to Cyan!

 

[16:01] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): In my experience, there tends to be a fine line between "really good bratting" and "annoying bratting".  Many don't know when to stop unfortunately.  A really good brat can be fun, but they know when to stop as well. And unfortunately, a select few push that line on purpose to instigate their "kink dispenser"  Good creative bratting can lead to a lot of fun! :)

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): There is truth to that

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Of course what that line is varies from person to person

 

[16:03] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): very true

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Some Dom/mes love a really really bratty brat

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): others will tolerate it a bit

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): then stop it

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so while I agree, I think that line is fuzzy.  Good points!

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cyan!

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia!

 

[16:04] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): i apologize if my words offend...that is not my intent rather it is my intention to voice my experience with Brats.... as a submissive observing it.

 

My observation with Brats is simply that they do not keep this "Brat" complex within the confines of their D/s relationship with a Dominant. i see it on display when its not appropriate. Thus my experience with "Brats" has NOT been a positive one.

 

I wind up having to see it on display at fountain, or in various gatherings where one should conduct one’s self as a respectful submissive.

 

Worse i have to deal with it as a Choreographer. Which is the ONE situation where i am NOT a submissive. I am the Choreo....don't pull that brat shit with me....cause i will can your ass from my act faster than you can BLINK.

 

Keep it between you and your whoever. Its not my kink, and i will not play into your personal narrative as a brat.#

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): this gets into the external consent issue

 

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): which we'll have soon

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): While a Dom/me and a Brat are totally fine in their behavior with each other, is it just to be expected that such behavior is tolerated everywhere?  Well if I go to work and act like a "brat" I can expect to be canned.

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That said the person and the community has to determine what the line is between playfulness and disrespect of the situation

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): which again goes back to Cyan's comment about "level of brat"

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We certainly want people to have fun but at some point decorum is a necessity.  But I do not know or wish to say what that "line" is.

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia you made a very good point, thanks!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne we come to you please!

 

[16:08] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): Done well I know that a brat is really trying to express the fact that they care and they care enough to really engage my mind with their bratiness not just misbehaving but adding texture and life and vitality and originality maybe it's a twinkle of an eye as she serves something Maybe the way she pauses to look at her reflection in mirror to make sure that she is dressed for me or maybe when she sticks me in a cage when I fall asleep and then poses on top of that cage takes a photo and presents it to me in a book  That's one that I remember years and years after it happened ! That is fundamentlly different thn simply acting unruly.

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Again I think it's matters of degree...most of what you said might not be seen as really "bratty"...except for the cage situation of course...

 

[16:10] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): It can be endearing when the terms are worked out through the relationship...she takes as much delight in her punishment!

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but is it punishment or funishment?

 

[16:10] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): *giggles *

 

[16:10] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): The consequences fit the situation

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): is the idea to work out that behavior and prevent it, or to give a sort of "reward" for doing it?

 

[16:11] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): If she hurs community, then we have to correct that wwithout extinguishing the spark...it can be a fine line, as hestia pointed out

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good points!!

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): we come to Cee please!

 

[16:12] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): While I love me a 'cheeky' and witty sub, I cannot do brat. It is too time consuming trying to figure out what will happen next and being so literal in instructions it makes my head hurt. In my submissive part if I were to come back without coffee my Lord would just stand there and wait for me to figure out what I had done to displease Him. But bring on the "sassy' ones. #

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee, that's a really good point that I've heard -- "I am NOT going to figure out how to give a direction in such a way that it CANNOT be overturned"....because it will be overrturned lol

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's why when first coming into contact with a submissive, time spent together and seeing what goes on is essential

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and clear communication on both sides is necessary

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): the problem is when people into *any* relationship with misguided hopes.."I can cure this and make him/her what I want."  BZZZT

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's just  recipe for disaster, D/s or vanilla

 

[16:16] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): haha!

 

[16:16] RB (RBQuinn Resident): nods

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thanks!

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Salis we come to you please!

 

[16:17] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): I don't get this "make me obey" idea if the submissive has submitted to obey their Dominant.  Why does that idea make sense?  I get that some bratty behavior, at times can be fun.   But not all the time!  That gets exhausting.  A cheeky sub can be lots of fun.#

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and again it comes down to understanding what each other wants, needs and expects

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Some Dom/mes LOVE the idea of bending the Brat to their will, as they can anyway lol

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and like I said earlier, the Brat will eventually obey, but they see it as "sorry, but rote, immediate doing what I'm told is boring.  Why should I?"

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Again, not everyone's cup of tea

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but very good point Salis, thanks!

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Sydney we come to you please!

 

[16:20] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): I could make an entire dissertation on brats but I will try to keep it ... succinct (kinda).  I am a brat.  This is an important part of my character.  I enjoy the moments I express that trait.  Not many outside my close friends and family know this since I keep it controlled.  A brat has to become familiar and really understand her Dominate before bratting.  I only brat within the limits set for me.  I can go from blatant disobedience and poking the bear to playful flirty teasing.  My brattish behavior will never cross the established line and will never publicly disrespect or hurt my Dominate.  There is a spectrum of brats, not all are always insolent, disrespectful, pushing.  Not all brats are 'harmful'.  I believe public bratting should be avoided.  The sub bratting in public supposedly knows her Dom's limits but people in the area might have different limits and consider the bratting remarks as flagrant disrespect.  Should consent be considered for the public audience?  For a brat, they will be 90% obedient and respectful, but 10% there is a time to play around, be playfully mischievous and disobey.  When done responsibly, brat play adds a bold, playful energy to the D/s relationship. #

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): These are all very good points

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I will say though  that *some* Dominants *like* their Brat doing *some* of their Bratty behavior in public.  It shows the Dom has a Brat and does something to control them.

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But again, we get into 'third party consent' and what Hestia pointed out...why do *I* have to be involved in this

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so again I think it's a matter of the community and what it is willing to tolerate

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Remember we aren't here to figure out world peace or save the manatees....we're kicking the can around

 

[16:24] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): lol

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks Sydney

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Katie back to you!

 

[16:24] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): My comment was just: I would like to kinda suggest just a little, reading the room at first. Brats may be brats  but should be just a lil' flexible thing... Don't go into a new situation and expect them to conform to you. In first contact, flexibility is pretty important as you get to know each other and rapport is never built right away.

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree Katie!

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That said a Dominant might see a Brat and say right off the bat "not my type" which is fine, as that Dom wouldn't be the Brat's type either

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but you're right, many subs don't feel they have to obey every order given immediately...and that leads to some being labeled "Brat" right on

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Which I don’t' see as fair either

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good point, thanks!

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Alsedel, you're up please!

 

[16:27] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): Thank you and this is my view of the world with this. Everyone has their own views and should be respected. There is a difference between Bratting and The Brat.

 

[16:28] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): Sydny so eloquent inher commetns about it.   Bratting is playful, sexual, haunting, and leads to building a relationship.

 

[16:29] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): Also, Dom/Masters can Be bratting.  I do it on occasions when I accuse My Bestie Hestia on her card cheating. .

 

 

[16:29] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): moi??? (shocked look)

 

[16:29] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): For Dom/Sub it what they will except.. in their relationship.  ITs not Obstructive is Constructive.

 

[16:30] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): Bratting is role a behavore anyone can do it.  Now the BRAT

 

[16:32] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): Brats are another lleve  if Dom want to be engaged with a BRAT their perrogative.  The BRAT can try tomanipulate not only the DOM but those around us. Hestias example were so on the mark there.  Again, everyone has their on SL their D/S  Being an old Gorean i watch it destroyed by the Kajira/Princesses where were BRATS. .

 

[16:33] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): I could on but .. coffee time. Everyone here knows what they want and how far they go in the Brat/Dom relations or BRAT/Sub .. cause doms can be brats too#

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): All good points

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and I think your dichotomy of Bratty-ness vs a BRAT has quite a bit of merit

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I just would say that I think saying all "Brats" are manipulative kinds of somewhat sociopaths is probably a bit of a stereotype.  Certainly some are....and very "regular" subs can be highly manipulative as well minus the usual "Brat" behavior

 

[16:35] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): To me that’s the delimiter.

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That’s a very good point!  Thanks Alsedel!

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne back to you!

 

[16:36] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I understand that from the outside of a dynamic, bratty behavior looks like whatever we wouldn't personally tolerate. But within the stated and sometimes unstated dimensions of a couple on either side of the slash, an understanding emerges that balances disrespect and the continual negotiation of where the balance lies....and when those forces align, it just works for them. So I'm sort of defending brats because the intent is notjust to cause trouble. It can be the glue that really makes a couple work or they wouldn't collude in it!

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree 100%!

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): What works for folks works for them!

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We can personally disagree, even say to ourselves "Holy sh*t I'd NEVER get involved in that!" and yet respect the fact people get into things because they like them

 

[16:38] Alsedel Llewellyn (Alsedel Llewellyn): Absolutly..

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't understand the features of "Abrasive Elbow Worship" but that doesn't mean I hand people body lotion if I see it happening

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Just "ok not my thing" and move on

 

[16:39] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I think that a brat as simply defying every command or tryinjg to get out of things because they cannot be physically forced (virtually) is not a brat at all....they live for challenge.

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And that's a very good point

 

[16:40] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): and they are out the door

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): it is after all a matter of degree

 

[16:40] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): but when they call forth my fiendishness with etheir own, I find that engrossing!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): :P

 

[16:41] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): that is the stuff of great scenes and a continuing delightful relationship

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne thanks for that, good point!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee back to you please!

 

[16:42] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I also think this behavior depends on what outcome the brat is looking for, punishment or just being noticed. If taken too far for the former it could become pathological.  Again negotiation is paramount to this working right.  I also thought I would explain why brats are not my cup of tea. I am eldest of 9 and raised my siblings 7 boys and a sister with Down's. I did all that "well you did not tell me you wanted it in a cup" stuff for many years. Brings back memories of trying to run a household as a child myself. Brats, have at it but in my world I would put you in a corner, unless that is what you are looking for. Doms can be brats at times too. But Respect to all #

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes that's a very good point Cee!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That said...there are Dom/mes that LOVE having an ultra-bratty brat.  I dunno if any of you remember Dani, she was a Seraph here years ago...she was an ultra-brat and her Master, Peter, not only loved it he egged her on.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): To the chagrin of some here....

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So....everyone has their thing!

 

[16:45] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): I think some dommes like to be challenged a bit and may look to the brats for that. It's boring being obeyed blindly all the time

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure!

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And some do like being obeyed instantly 100% of the time

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): everyone has their thing

 

[16:46] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): Like a woman who wants a man to work for it

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and there's someone for everyone!

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): My friend Tann had a very bratty sub and just loved the challenge

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): some would look at go "wtf?"

 

[16:47] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Gor has a saying "Let the swords of others set your limitations"    I think in bratting it is "Let the whip of your Dominant set the brats limit" (not kink limits/likes, but how far they can go bratting )

 

[16:47] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): But Gor had an entirely different understanding of what a slave is and to what lengths one could go to enforce compiance

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): all good points!

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cee, Katie!

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Sydney please!

 

[16:48] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): It takes time to learn how to brat ... respectfully.  You just do not jump right in.  In a past relationship I thought I understood my Dom and made a small bratty comment ... and was immediately shut down hard.  That hurt.  I never bratted again and I lost some of the fun part of a relationship.  Know your Dom well or face the consequences. #

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): 100%

 

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): which is why extended negotiation periods is good

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): a collar 20 mins into the meeting is usually a recipe for disaster

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): that said I think your Dominant could have used that as a teaching moment rather than a "shut you down"

 

[16:49] Katie (katieWalsh1993 Resident): Yup, yup, I guess I was trying to say the same a bit in my 'read the room' comment

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): communication is always vital

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good points Sydney thanks!

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Nawa thanks for waiting and I think you have the last comment of the day!

 

[16:50] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): After reading A/all comments i can agree with some more than others, my opinion is that a Brat in the D/s Dynamic is simply a creative, playful sub, and it works best in DD/lg dynamics i dont believe disobedience works for a power exchange Dynamic, further more, lately what im witnessing more and more is a total lack of respect rather than playfulness. What Hestia said earlier, even towards other submissives or people who they don´t have any familiarity with to push that side. but thats my opinion, at the end of the day there are plenty of roles out there for people to chose and what dynamic suits them and their partners best, and please, for all thats sacred! do not allow Brat creative Doms nor Sadists to go extinct!

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hear hear!

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I think "time and place" is very important

 

[16:51] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes

 

[16:51] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): #

 

[16:52] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): "time and place" here here

 

[16:52] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): agreed

 

[16:52] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): applauds

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): As I switch there are behaviors I might do at home with my Dominant that I'd NEVER do in public....or I might allow more behaviors at home to my sub than what's allowed out.

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Katie said "read the room" and that's really important

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Any behavior we might do needs to be in context so...just think before acting...that's true of anything we might do.

 

[16:53] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Sorry i just wanted to elaborate on that

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok Nawa finish up!

 

[16:55] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): If people start pushing their role, imagine a sadist just pulling their cane out and swatting you with it out of the blue. if that is not acceptable than please understand your bratiness should only come out to the people you have relationships with and have given expressed consent

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): time/place/context/group

 

[16:56] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): totally agree

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I wonder if I wore the leather dress to Mass if that would go...

 

[16:56] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "Bless me Father, I'm sinning right now"

 

[16:56] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): There's definitely a fine line in 3rd party consent and what is permissible behavior - Here we have Laz's reminder "Be an adult" "Treat everyone with respect" :)

 

[16:56] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): yes!

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok this was a rousing discussion!

 

[16:57] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): to the leather dress, I mean

 

[16:57] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Their are some kinky priests outt there, you might get a surprise

 

[16:57] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): laughs*

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): oh heh heh :P

 

[16:57] RB (RBQuinn Resident): laughs

 

[16:57] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): if you only knew

 

[16:57] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): kinky?? not me..no..never...nope

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): again we are not here to rag on Brats, just to chat

 

[16:57] Jenine BloodBane (Illana Kuu): C

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and this ends our discussion of the BDSM acronym!

 

[16:57] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Thank you Miss Vanessa!

 

[16:58] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): We should talk about religion and D/s and BDSM some time

 

[16:58] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *shakes her head*  he needs his leathers

 

[16:58] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): grins at Master Johan

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): In two weeks we'll go to more general topics, and as third party consent has come up, we'll start with that

 

[16:58] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): Thank you Vanni!   And thanks A/all for a great discussion!

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): seems to be a natural segue

 

[16:58] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thank you Vanni, Thank you everyone :)

 

[16:58] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Thank yuou Miss Vanni!

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Jenine do you have your comment ready?

 

[16:58] Jenine BloodBane (Illana Kuu): yes Mistress its just a simple one

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead if it's ready

 

[16:58] Jenine BloodBane (Illana Kuu): I think that in my perspective as I'm still learning alot, that Bratting ties to being in public gatherings like example:

I like to joke about Innocent because it adds fun to the context.

But when I'm with my Miss I most definitely am not a Brat I respect my Miss to much!#

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): well said Jenine!

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): See y'all in two weeks!  Enjoy the Festival!