S is for Submission! -- August 9, 2026

 [15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go ahead and start up

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received; however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual I have some exposition to start us off

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, as I ramble on a bit (not the Led Zep song), feel free to put in Cs and Qs and then we'll get to the queue

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we continue our walk through the BDSM acronym by focusing on the "s" in D/s

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After today, we have a few more topics to go through: subs vs slaves, the DaddyDom/babygirl dynamic...The Brat! And then switching.

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (not brats like you eat...well usually)

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[15:43] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): wiggles brows

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a couple of weeks ago we covered the Dominant aspect, today we go into submission.

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First, I'd like to point out that there is both overlap and differentiation between Tops/Bottoms and Dominants/subs or slaves, but also important differences.

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): At my First Life club, I'd say 75-80% of the people are Tops and Bottoms. We get together, do perverse, kinky things, and then go home. The Power Exchange is for the hour or so that's given over to that interaction.

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): These things naturally involve a lot of prayer....subs screaming "OH GOD" over and over.....

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very pious

[15:45] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ha!

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also, the exchange is very specific -- we will do this and that but not THAT.

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So Top/Bottom is based on scene activity, which we of course do here in SL and Xaara

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): D/s on the other hand is based on some aspect of growing relationship.

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The power exchange is stronger but usually less directly formalized as the connection grows.  It's like a maturing vanilla relationship, with more sharply defined bounderies.

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The initial negotiations tend to melt into a bigger picture of shared kinks, desires and emotions.

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So we come to the submissive, the person who wants to give themselves over to the direction of the Dominant, serve their needs and be whatever it is the Dom/me wants and they come up with together.

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Just as Domination is something more than "topping," then Submission is something more than "bottoming." The question is, what is it?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Why do submissives get such a thrill (or "joie de vivre") from being truly submissive to a Dominant person?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And, what is it that gets the Dom/me drawn to the sub type? What do they see, what's the click there?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Remember, vanillas don't get what we do, they think "Dominants are monsters, and subs are doormat types, and it's all abuse" (well, some vanillas, to be fair)

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But we know better, so what's the "zing" of submission? Why do subs relish it and Dominants like it so much and get their kicks watching subs squirm?

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (No, please don't. do that. No, really. Stop.) </Willy Wonka Voice>

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok that's my exposition, so when you have a comment or question jump in the queue!

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia when you are ready please!

[15:51] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Why do they relish it? because power is a very very strong aphrodisiac, for the one giveing the power and for the one receiving the power. #

[15:51] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): well put

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok so (and only playing devil's advocate here)...it's really about the thrill of power?

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if I top a person at the club for an hour or so I get lots of power...then we go home.  Maybe for some that's enough of a thrill of power?

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (again playing devil's advocate here!)

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll see what people come up with!  Thanks, Hestia, for starting us off!

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Salis, please!

[15:54] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): Does the question of why submissives engage in TPE, really have just one general answer or many different reasons?  I believe it is for many reasons that vary from person to person.#

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh no, I'm a complete reductionist, there can be only one answer and one cause! :P </sarcasm>

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (of course, as a sociologist, I know that attributing one cause to anything humans do is foolish)

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But while I agree...what are those things?  Hestia said it's a rush of power on both sides.  What else is it?

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let me ask a follow-up:

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Salis, would you be interested in sharing what gets you going about submission from the angle of being a Dom?  (if not we will move on)

[15:59] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): yes.  I enjoy the responsiblity of finding out what the submissive really wants and needs.  Help define the limits and where I can push the submissive past soft limits that can enhance our relationship.  It is also an ego boost to exercise the power in a positive way.  It is also very difficult to Dominate with no submissive.

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!  I tried ordering bacteria around, no dice.

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): all that sounds yummy too!

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok so power as intoxication, pushing a bit, positive use of power, wants and needs, good good

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Salis!

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee please!

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I hope a few others have thoughts as this is what we do here!

[16:02] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): As someone on both sides of the slash. I think it is called power exchange for a reason and that drives the other elements, emotional, sexual Of course attraction and charisma play a role especially initializing. In a D/s relationship it gets deeper emotionally or tends to fade out. Salis is right about responsibility #

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes power is the driving element for sure

[16:03] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am submissive as well

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But if it doesn't get deeper on some emotional level it's Top/Bottom activity..which is fine!

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Many people are happy to get a scene going and then head home and that's their dance in BDSM.

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact...and this might be controversial...

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think *more* people in SL are Top/Bottom than they think.

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lots of folks connect D/s with kinky sex

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And kinky sex is great...or so I hear! *cough*

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But finding a person to tie up and have kinky sex with is a pretty limited way to look at D/s

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): IMO anyway

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee thanks for those thoughts.

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok before we move on I was sent a request to present someone's thoughts anonymously

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So let me share this; we can chat about it and then move back to Hestia

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): " It is not all about power.  I feel more centered, more at ease, calm and present.  I am happy to provide and serve.  Being submissive, to me, is not a choice.  I also did not choose for my sexual fantasies to include being restrained, punished, or controlled.  You are submissive whether or not you have Dom or Master.  You are submissive even if your D/s is not 24-7.  You are submissive even if you are alone with your thoughts.  You are submissive whether or not you fight it, feel good about it, or unhappy about it.  If you are submissive, you just are.  That does not mean I am a doormat or can not stand up for myself and be strong.  That does not mean I am easy or my submission is for every Dominate out there. I choose who I submit to, its a gift I give to my Dominate.  Cherished Protected."

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love that!!

[16:08] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): hear hear!

[16:09] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  smiles and applauds

[16:09] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): joins RB

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think this gets to an essential question -- is being a Dominant or a submissive something we *do*, something we *are*, or both?  The person who wrote that says it's what we *are*.  Do y'all agree?  Even if not "practicing," are we still those things (or both perhaps if one switches?)

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Feel free to share your thoughts on that, no C

[16:10] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): I agree it is who we are, both D and s

[16:10] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): and those on both sides

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And vanillas are really vanilla!  (Although I read the #1 ice cream in the USA is strawberry!)

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[16:11] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am very S with my Master and a few other otherwiae I am Dom and I am primarily DOm in RL as well

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok thanks Salis and Cee!

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thanks for those thoughts, oh Anonymous!  *giggles*

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well thought out!

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Hestia please

[16:13] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): what attracts us, or puts us off. example..from my personal POV. This may not be the POV of other submissives.#

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well I'd say the latter guy is driven by what I call "SL Hyperspeed" -- everything is sped up here, there are no consequences for the most part if we say things (unless they break TOS), so why waste time with flowery words, just get right to the point and if she doesn't respond, find the next one to attempt to victimize.

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not that I'm excusing such inane garbage mind you

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's just how such people think

[16:15] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): yes indeed! :)

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whereas the first one was seductive in his power

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't even respond to such BS -- insta-mute

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so that was a great example of real Dominance vs crap, Hestia

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jenine, we come to you, please!

[16:17] Jenine (Illana Kuu): For me being more new to true D/s I have learned that from the submissive perspective. Having a Dominant Miss to help guide me in becoming a better person. 

As a submissive I get a stronger sense of being happy and willing to give more as the connection builds between the D/s relationship.

I also thrive better having a person who is strong to push me past my comfort points even when I don't like it.  But that happens as trust becomes stronger.

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well, I think you mean "might not like but I give consent"

[16:18] Jenine (Illana Kuu): yes exactly

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with Jenine that as the relationship deepens so does the trust and so the willing giving over of power

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): NO human relationship is static

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (which is why I disagree with what some say about slaves -- "slaves negotiate once and never again.")

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Slaves might have to ask... to plead...for something, but in the end if they're denied growth and change, they're seen as a doll, and humans ain't dolls

[16:22] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): the term "willful slave" has a meaning for that reason.

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): </rant over>

[16:22] Jenine (Illana Kuu): I think to clarify on what I said, is that the Consent is a critical part between me and My Miss, but having Her controlling me in a willing situation is helping to redefine my self esteem. #

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, good point Jenine!  Thank you!

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and Cee we come back to you

{16:23] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): My past Master and I had a well rounded scenario, we had Date nights, Kink nights, Sex nights and Cuddle Talking nights. My current relationship is similar without as much structure. This is referring to what we do in D/s and to a degree th kinky side too#

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point and each of those relationships was based on structure that perhaps was needed or wanted at that time

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): more or less

[16:25] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes and negotiated

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is why we can't look at how others do their D/s and say "ur doing it wrng"

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If it's right for you, what others say is noise (unless it's truly abusive)

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): after we finish the BDSM acronym we'll do that discussion again -- "dealing with perceived abuse"

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but we have a few more subs to go discuss

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cee!

[16:27] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yvw

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan please repeat what you said earlier in full :)

[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Again my apologies.. one of these days I'll edit in a NC first then copy/paste.   RE: Hestia's fountain example -Just as an aside, both can be considered Dominance (I loathe the terms 'real/fake' on both sides of the coin.) -  Some People ARE into that type of play both Top and Bottom.  I'm not and would never behave so crudely. but there ARE those who do enjoy it on both sides of the /    the whole "your kink isn't mine, and thats ok'  but its ALSO 100% ok to be turned off by that behavior as well and to tell them you do not consent to receiving that.. #

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right -- and the essential point was there at the end Johan, *CONSENT*

[16:28] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): This is what block buttons are for :D

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure, some people get off on nasty, humiliating kinds of scenarios...but get consent first!

[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100% I've even gone so far as to tell Sydney she's welcome to block anyone at any time, and if she has to tell them "My Master said so" thats ok  ;)

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥✪`*•.✰ YAYY ✰.•*´✪♥

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also there are places for that kind of quick "let me IM you and we'll proceed to the laundry room and f**k" kind of things

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whole sims devoted to capture RP etc

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so they can go there

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): not at our Fountain where our lovely Angels and Seraphim are posing for the community -- but they don't get that

[16:31] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): snickers at the 4 times he was horsenapped. 3 being on this sim.

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yeah but you consent ;)

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan those were fab points thanks!

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So here's a question that came to mind

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if a bottom/sub is walking around with an open collar, is that "game on" for whoever finds it, or should they ask first?  Feel free to answer

[16:32] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): ASK

[16:33] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Ask AFTER?

[16:33] apalia (apalia Resident): no

[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Does the sub have "feel free to grab me if you see me walking around?" In their profile?

[16:33] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): ASK before it is no different than if you had no collar to that extent

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no before Wombi

[16:33] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): depends on the sim they are at....if clearly marked as RLV Trap and sub sets collar to that setting.  Then fair game

[16:33] Jenine (Illana Kuu): absolutely Not, without consent

[16:33] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): consent required to use the collar

[16:34] apalia (apalia Resident): although there are some 'capture' sims which invite that but should have a big warning sign

[16:34] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): yes with clear warning signs

[16:34] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): consent depends on the Sim. Walk around a Gorean Sim with an open collar..YOU WILL BE grabbed.

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and one should know that about Gor, Hestia

[16:35] Jenine (Illana Kuu): that is absolutely correct Hestia, been there...

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): usually Gor sims have clear rules at the landing

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "if you leave here you agree to our rules"

[16:35] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Stupid book series.

[16:35] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Which it SHOULD be roleplayed out as well not just typing /1

[16:35] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I was told half a dozen times not to come here as it was a gor sim

[16:35] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): The consent can be given by the submissive who sets their collar that way.

[16:36] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): As well as their Master may have rules about that 'open collar'

[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So to greater answer the question is "It depends"    On the situation, has prior consent been given (rules of the sim, permission clearly stated in profile, etc. )    otherwise ANY action should require discussion and explicit consent.

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% agreed Johan

[16:36] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): nods to Johan

[16:37] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I might teach the "Consent/Limits/Collar" classes now and then for the M/M class :)

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and yes, if a bottom/sub has a Dominant, they better be sure they are following their Dom/mes rules about having a collar open to the public

[16:38] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): and having rules from the dominant about checking sim rules and conditions being understood

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): everything just needs to be clear

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): maybe one's Dominant can't get on much so they allow the sub a lot of slack in what they do...that doesn't totally cede responsibility in said sub

{16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And are there any other comments or points to be made about submission?

[16:41] apalia (apalia Resident): I came late to this and picked up some interesting points I will take away.  Thank you

[16:42] Soʀʀow Haʀᴛ (NyxDarkbloom Resident): Great discussion Vanessa thank you

[16:42] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Not for me.

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Another great discussion Vanni and everyone !

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you all for being here!\

D is for Domination! -- July 26, 2026

 [15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): all right time to get started

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received; however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have some exposition as usual...so as I ramble a bit start getting in your Cs and Qs

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We continue with our set of Discussions on the BDSM acronym, today going into the middle part...D/s, or "Domination" and "Submission"

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today our topic is Domination.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): D/s is related to but different from being a Top and a Bottom.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Tops and Bottoms are roles in *scenes* -- I go to my local club and usually act as a Top, occasionally a Bottom, in a scene that goes 1-2 hours.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After the scene is over, the very temporary power exchange ends, we're back to 'neutral.'

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I usually only rarely talk to anyone I scene with live.... check-ins to be sure they are ok, and then plans for our next disgusting, appalling but oh-so-fun encounter.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Domination and submission, on the other hand, are characteristics that transcend the one-off scene.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a real psychological and sociological aspect to being a "Dominant" or a "submissive".

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So four questions to consider as we move to comments from the August Assembly...

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1)  What is Domination? Is it an attitude, is it a role, is it a psychology and sociology? A combination and maybe more?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 2) What is it that makes our Dominants here "Dominant," or what do sub-types see as "Dominant"? How would it be described and how is it done ethically?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 3)  Why do Dom/mes do what it is they do (Dominate in various areas)...what drives them to wanting that control?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 4) why are s-types so attracted to this? Why would they drop what they are doing and to their knees if the right Dom comes along and just gives them that ***LOOK***?

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You can go with any of these or branch off as long as it relates to Domination!

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So with that...formulate a comment or question!

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *sips coffee and waits*

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wombi when you are ready please!

 

[15:50] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Confidence and self Control (Wasn't going to talk during this discussion, though.)#

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): alright thanks wombaticus!

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Salis we come to you please!

 

[15:52] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): Domination to me is having a high level of control over another person, in D/s that is consensual #

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We talked a few weeks ago about personality disorders that do not have a place in D/s, and you are 100% spot on that ethical D/s is always consensual.

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Of course what is "consensual" can vary from one D/s connection to the other.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But the ethical Dominant doesn't just push their way on another person....well unless such pushing is consensual *giggles*

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point, thanks Salis!

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia when you are ready please!

 

[15:56] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Domination is a concept. ....it is allowed to exist thro the inaction, of those whom dwell under that concept.

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You mean if the sub rebels against the Dominant?

 

[15:58] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): In the case of D/s...yes Mistress.

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well...and I'd welcome any responses to this (minus a C please!)...if a sub rebels against a Dominant, then is that person a submissive...and I mean here to usually agreed upon, consensual acts?

 

[16:00] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I mean, yes and no?  There are variances.. In some instances 'bratting' can be considered rebelling, as can CNC, but in the most specific yes.  If a Submissive decides to no longer follow the instruction/rules/order/ of a Dominant, then essence the "Domination" no longer exists between them.  #

 

[16:00] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): IF, as some say, the Submissive has the power, then just as they are free to submit, they are likewise free to cancel said arrangement....hence overthrow Dominantion.

 

[16:01] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Also, even if a dominant's attempts are rejected, they may still have the psychology of a dominant.

 

[16:01] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): #

 

[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think though that is distinctive between Dominant/Dominance/Domination

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll get into brats in a few weeks heh hyeh

 

[16:02] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *claps*

 

[16:02] RB (RBQuinn Resident): laughs

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but bratting is only rebellion (IMO) if it goes beyond what bratting is allowed between Dom and Brat

 

[16:03] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I would agree with Hestia that if a sub rejects a dominant, then there is no 'D/s relationship'.

 

[16:03] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  nods

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): although it appears to be naked rebellion to those outside

 

[16:03] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): yes I agree with RB and Hestia

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!  but if I have a Dominant and I just say "no I'm not doing that agreed upon thing, simply because I don't want to do it"  I'd have to question my submission.  And certainly that's canceling the connection as it is

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "No I won't" vs "Please not tonight I'm sick" are two different things I think.

 

[16:05] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier):  nods in agreement with Miss Vanni

 

[16:05] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): As is "No, that is against my limits or what we agreed on" as well

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh sure

 

[16:05] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): exactly Miss Vanni...Domination is only the controlling force if you allow it to be.

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's why I stressed *agreed upon* Johan :)

 

[16:06] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100%  I just wanted to also make sure any subs here didn't worry that they were breaking their submissive/Dominant relationship by upholding their limits :)

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And that gets back to ethics -- the ethical Dominant doesn't push understood limits because it's "my right as your Dom/me".  That's no bueno around here.

 

[16:09] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I think that if a sub rebels, in some way that may also be a sign of a breakdown in communication.  Perhaps talking about issues, or talking about changing needs..

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But if I'm a Domme of a person, I can also reasonably expect said sub will obey what we've agreed upon unless a reason comes up (illness, life needs, etc) that we talk about.  Then it would be unreasonable for me to expect them to just obey anyway at that time.  IMO anyway.

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% Cyan

 

[16:10] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): I think the Dominant would need to talk to the sub before the relationship stops, if the sub is willing. Both of them owe that to each other

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's a dance, not a one-way street *grins*

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes!

 

[16:10] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  nods

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): although "ghosting" is far too common in SL :/

 

[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Two to Tangle, three to form a Cha-Cha Line, but only 1 to do the twist!

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  giggles

 

[16:10] Sultry (Sultry Shadow):  grins

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): How about a game of Crisco Twister later...uh...I'll explain then...

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:11] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Last time I did that I couldn't get the grease out of the shower for a week

 

[16:11] Reg (Reginal Lundquist): Going back to the original questions, If I was to characterize it, Domination would be defined as a personality type, someone that already has control over himself before all things. They act as an anchor of consistent behavior that fosters confidence and mutual respect. As for what drives them is the need to lead and be seen just like a Sub in many ways, just in a different form we know as roles. In the end the consensual aspect comes down to understanding each others wants needs and boundaries, which are different for everyone. Lastly the attraction is the delta between what the Dominant brings to the role and what a sub finds compelling in any sort of exchange of discussion or exploration. We all have an idea of what makes us tick, which may or may not resonate for a sub and that's fine, however it does foster conversation and communication and ultimately thats the goal and what builds trust.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia thanks for that comment and thanks y'all for the thoughts!  I love how we move along

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Reg was that your comment down the queue?

 

[16:12] Reg (Reginal Lundquist): yes sorry I jumped the line

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh it's ok!

[16:14] Reg (Reginal Lundquist): that was it

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Domination is very much a personality type IMO...so is submission.  People can be naturally more active and leading while others can be more passive, helping in the back and being happy to hear "good job"

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but that doesn't necessarily make them "Dominants" and "submissives" as we see them

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yet at the same time that's very much the kind of role and behavior good Dom/mes and subs manifest

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): My current Department Dean is an Irish woman, very Dominant in her way but she doesn't do BDSM that I know of lol...but she leads super well and always makes sure we all know we're appreciated

 

[16:16] Reg (Reginal Lundquist): Good example

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And subbies, doesn't that make your hearts beat a bit faster when that Dom says "job well done, I appreciate it" with that smile and LOOK

 

[16:17] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): O_O

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  winks at the subbies ;)

 

[16:18] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *nods enthusiastically*

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Reg thanks, good points!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan please!

 

[16:18] Reg (Reginal Lundquist): Thank you..

 

[16:18] Jenine (Illana Kuu): yes it does!

 

[16:19] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I think a Dominant is a state of being.  A projection of ones attitude and persona.  It is everything combined, the confidence, the "i'm in charge" attitude, the way one dresses, the way one interacts with others, the way one carries one;s self.  And it really goes beyond D/s into other aspects of someone's life.  Dominants tend to want to "be in charge" in things outside BDSM too.  That being said, there can be a fine line between being a confident dom(me) and becoming overbearing and honestly rude.  And of course consent and ethical behaviour go hand in hand with a true good dom(me) persona.   of course this is the persona, there is much more to being a good dom(me) than just having the persona. #

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person who is overbearing and rude isn't a Dominant at all as we would describe them....they're a boor

 

[16:20] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): yes

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and a rude person IMO is over-compensating for the fact they *aren't* really a Dominant person, they're just trying to push their will minus real confidence

 

[16:21] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I think too many in SL cross that line and still think they are good dominants

 

[16:22] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): Good is such a relative and subjective term

 

[16:22] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): also "bad"

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): when some people get on the road they think they can drive...but they can't lol

 

[16:22] Sultry (Sultry Shadow): lol

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh that's totally true, Salis

 

[16:22] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): Smiles

 

[16:22] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): it is subjective for sure..

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I think for a person to say "I'm an ethical Dom/me" in their community there is some standard.  What that standard is, however, is quite subjective.  Xaara vs Gor, for example.

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What is totally fine in Port Kar might not go here, and vice-versa.

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And that's fine!

 

[16:24] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): Reputation is a big part of it too

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Indeed

 

[16:25] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): hence...READ profiles :)

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can tell you that the RL community is pretty hamish, even in a large city like Los Angeles.  If someone does something dumb at our club, word gets around pretty fast and they find their reputation precedes them!

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Hestia!

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "No points, no Picks, no service!" ;)

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:27] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): chuckles

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan very good points thank you for that!

 

[16:27] Sultry (Sultry Shadow):  giggles to herself while she thinks how she's missed that rimshot

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jenine, we come to you, thanks for waiting!

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  winks at Sultry with a grin

 

[16:28] Jenine (Illana Kuu):  takes a breath..

 

[16:28] Jenine (Illana Kuu): Mine ties to a bit of my past, but ties in a very real sense of True Dominance.

A few weeks/months ago I was actively tying myself back into a D/s system that only knew about.

 

I saw first hand how gorean masters treat their girls/slaves and the lack of consent. Especially after coming here to Xaara.

 

the same master I had been interacting while healing from emotional damage tried to get me to see myself as Chattle. 

 

So the Difference between D/s and Consent is a major learning point for me.  In that I willing do as my Miss asks as a Dommes and its healthy and all by Consent.

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm sorry you went through that Jenine, and I am very glad you are in a much better situation now!

[09:30] Jenine (illana.kuu): thank you Mistress Vanessa, it just feels good  to get it out

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: The only slight change I'd make to what you said above is there is a difference between "consensual D/s" and "abuse"...what you were experiencing sounds like psychological and emotional abuse

[09:31] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Was this a Gorean roleplay SIM or a Lifestyle Gorean, if I can ask?

[09:32] Vanessa Cannoli: If you were being told you were chatel and worthless, and that was hurting you in any way, that was a big problem (as opposed to people who like hearing that in their own connections)

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: A real Dominant can simply give an order and be obeyed.."Get me a gin and tonic" and that look and voice inspire instant obedience in a submissive

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: as opposed to name calling, abuse, scorn..ugh!

[09:35] Vanessa Cannoli: You're safe now lovely

[09:36] Vanessa Cannoli: that is what's important

[09:36] Vanessa Cannoli: and thank you for your contribution!

[09:36] Vanessa Cannoli: Johan go ahead when ready please!

[09:37] Jenine (illana.kuu): your welcome Mistress Vanessa and I truly feel safe here yes

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: 💖

[09:37] Jenine (illana.kuu) smiles still wiping her eyes a little

[09:39] Johan Dark (wjohanw): I just want to clarify something, Gor as written is a fantasy world, but in THAT world which has spawned both roleplay groups and interest to many in BDSM, the 'slaves' aren't necessarily submissive. (Nor are all women, though Norman is a horrible misogynist, that believes all women are)     -  In Gor, yes, the slaves ARE treated as Chattel and having limited worth, while yet in Norman's own MULTITUDE of inconsistent writings, entire wars have been fought over them.     So its not truly Domination in a ethical BDSM sense (and why I can't wrap my brain around Lifestyle Goreans) - but purely in a roleplay/character sense.      That doesn't mean BDSM practitioners can't Roleplay Goreans,  or even base their BDSM on some aspects of Gor,  but it also isn't for everyone.  #doneinant can simply give an order and be obeyed.."Get me a gin and tonic" and that look and voice inspire instant obedience in a submissive

[16:40] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): nods....What he said! YES

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed, and I don't think it's fair to say all Goreans act in any way, I know people that do Gorean RP that are very ethical

 

[16:40] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  nods emphatically

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But the mindset and the lifestyle tends to draw...some unsavory characters as well

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): very much "caveat emptor" in Gor..."let the buyer beware"

 

[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Indeed, I did 20+ years of Gorean RP in AOL and SL,  and its 'flavored' my BDSM practices, but I am 100% a proponent for Consent, Limits, Boundaries, Aftercare, and making sure my submissives needs are taken care of on both the masochistic and 'caregiver' side of the coin.

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yay!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good points, thanks Johan!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia we come back to you please!

 

[16:43] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Gor was about Honor and Steel....but it has been transmuted in the past years to Disney Gor, with the main concept of men brutalizing women....women are all slaves...and have no value. #

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well as a sociologist I can tell you that nothing social stays static heh heh

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so Gor evolving (or devolving as Hestia's point might make) into something else is not terribly surprising.

 

[16:44] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): To be fair, its always been about brutalizing women and war.

 

[16:45] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Especially when it attracts those pseudo-dominants you mentioned earlier, Vanni

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but again I think there are decent people doing Gorean RP, one just needs to be careful

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed RB

 

[16:45] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): it is great RP. a great culture to RP. but you have to read a few of the books or ...you have no clue :)

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Here we don't put up with abusers, but they can "hide" so to speak as a fierce Master or something similar in a Gorean sim.

 

[16:46] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): but in the end , they are always found out

 

[16:46] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): one can only 'hide' so long

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "You can try to run but you can't hide from what's inside of you."  -- Steely Dan

 

[16:46] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I agree with RB and Johan.  And while I do not kink shame... lets just say I do not fit into Gor philosophy  at all... so I avoid it like the plague

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I knew a lesbian couple that RPed as a free woman and her slave for years in various Gorean sims...they really seemed to enjoy it

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so...it can work!

 

[16:48] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I suppose I should say I do differentiate between RP and Lifestyle.  I disagree with the philosophy as a lifestyle

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It 100% can, MOST people who rp in Gor do so knowing the setting (therefore consenting) and the good thing about roleplay is consent even as a GOrean slave can still be withdrawn OOC if not IC.

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia thanks!

 

[16:49] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): nods

 

[16:50] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I agree.  Maybe the danger lies in observers who see it as a model for 'real' interactions

[16:50] Sultry (Sultry Shadow): I have yet to experience the Gorean RP.  I just never thought I had the type of creativity or imagination that would be required.

[16:50] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): points to my profile.."you all know Gor is not real..right??"

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A bunch of years ago a friend directed me to look at a RL Gorean lifestyle forum she found

  

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The "Masters" were busy discussing in one thread if their kajira wives or girls should vote

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Many said no

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One said "yes, but we fill out their ballot for them"

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and they all really liked that idea...

 

[16:51] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ha!

 

[16:51] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Glorious Ar is still around...oldest Gorean Sim..lifestyle. I know the owners personally

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ar you sure?

 

[16:52] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *badum tish*

 

[16:52] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): oh that was BAD miss Vanni! haha

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sorry couldn't resist :P

 

[16:52] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok so with that horrible pun we are done for today

 

[16:52] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): arar arararar!

 

[16:52] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): Smiles

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you all so much for your participation!

 

[16:52] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): lol

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You're what makes it great

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol Hestia :P

 

[16:52] Reg (Reginal Lundquist): Thank you all for your input and feedback, love hearing the insights.

 

[16:52] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Thanyou Miss Vanni

 

[16:52] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): Thank you so much for another interesting discussion

 

[16:53] Sultry (Sultry Shadow): A wonderful discussion, Miss Vanni!  Just as I remember them to be. ;)

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan is up next week to DJ

 

[16:53] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): Great discussion. Thank you.

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then in two weeks we talk about submission!

E is for Extreme Play! -- July 12, 2026

[08:42] Vanessa Cannoli: ok we'll start up

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[08:45] Vanessa Cannoli: Today we continue our discussion of the BDSM acronym.  We went over Bondage, Discipline and ideas around that.  Then we moved to S/M -- Sado Masochism.  We discussed the fun of Sadism, the joy of Masochism.

[08:46] Vanessa Cannoli: This week we go to Extreme Play as it's often called

[08:47] Vanessa Cannoli: Should be mentioned right off that this is a very "relative" kind of term

[08:47] Vanessa Cannoli: as what's "extreme" for one person might be rather "usual" to another

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: "Bloodplay!  how appalling!" or ""Made Dinner, Watched Leave it to Beaver rerun, got electroshocked on my groin for two hours...typical Saturday evening...."

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: I'm not suggesting that was MY Saturday evening!

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: Now going back to Bloodplay as an example

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: A guy at my RL club used to do this with willing bottoms

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: not slicing anyone open but cutting enough to draw blood...while wearing a skull mask....

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: Now the guy knew what he was doing, he stopped the bleeding, had a full first aid kit there, sterilized and bandaged everything, used proper covering and did full cleanup

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: but it caused a HUGE stir as you might imagine

[08:50] Sydney ღ Dark (badvudo): *shivers and scrunches down leaning on Sire*

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: I've also mentioned the guy that liked extreme foodplay

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: One time he put a turnip in his girl's bunghole, a few celerysticks in her vag, and sprayed chocolate sauce over her while screaming 'Hail Satan!" at the top of his lungs

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: (no...I'm not kidding)

[08:52] Johan Dark (wjohanw): New version of tossing a salad I guess..

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: He got banned from doing that, not because the board had with an issue with the play per se, but he made a real mess that required a professional cleaner.

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: Anyway, the point is that there are people that are involved in some things that make others recoil, but for them, the usual arse beating and whipping is just way too pedestrian.

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: And of course we should remember that things we like -- paddling, shibari, whipping etc -- all make the vanillas recoil in horror too at times

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: so the questions for today are:

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: 1) Do you enjoy some kind of "extreme" play, or has play you've engaged in been labeled "extreme?"  Or is this just not your thing?  and..

[08:57] Vanessa Cannoli: 2) How can we recreate such scenes here?  After all minus tactile aspects of this in SL, it's hard to really do a bloodplay scene, or a flogging with a barbed wire flogger (yes, I've seen that too) or whatever might come to mind.  Is it all "theater of the mind" and is that satisfying enough?

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: Johan when ready please!

[09:02] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Thank you Vanni for hitting such a hard topic that isn't often discussed! I have no problem with extreme play - but want to point out in general that Extreme is generally where Safe, Sane, Consensual moves slightly more towards "Risk Aware Consensual Kink" and or 'Personal Responsibility Informed Consensual Kink" for those who may not be familiar with the other two acronyms.   Its the perfect set of examples of "Your kink may not be my kink, but thats ok" as long as all the parties are informed, experienced, willing adults who know what they are doing and what they are getting into.      I do like a bit of knife play, possible gun play (Unloaded or preferably "plastic - training only weapon),  With my subs I've done Tattoo play and piercing play in SL, whether or not it worked minds eye, you'd have to ask Sydney and Kahlan, but I think if you are a descriptive enough writer ( *Cough, My book is available on KU link in my profile j/K ...or not kidding )   I think people can still enjoy and build up that frame of reference.  But as someone who thought "Well, I have a high pain tolerance.. Maybe I'd like being flogged?"    (I did not!.. yep, definitely a Giver not a Receiver here)   some things can only truly be experienced first hand.  So if you are exploring - please vet and verify the tops who will be working with you.   #done

[09:04] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes making sure who one is doing these things with is essential!

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: and I do like how you pointed out this is a sliding scale, so what's seen as "extreme" falls under the usual rules of consent and safety (well as safe as we can make it!)

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: I watched a very "extreme" electroplay scene a couple years ago, the bottom could barely walk after and needed over two hours of aftercare

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: some people were turned off by it

[09:06] Vanessa Cannoli: but the DM watched it closely and made sure nothing went out of hand

[09:06] Vanessa Cannoli: and it came down to "you don't want to watch, there's plenty of club around"

[09:07] Vanessa Cannoli: and I would be interested to hear how your girls responded to the tattoo play! ;)

[09:07] Vanessa Cannoli: *winks at the lovely Sydney*

[09:07] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks Johan!

[09:07] Vanessa Cannoli: wombaticus you are up please!

[09:07] wombaticus: In regards to the SL representation, the animation, sound effects and such can be built. But have they been?

[09:08] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Depends on the furniture or use, but yes

[09:08] wombaticus: Some have, but only in vore sims, I have noticed.#

[09:09] Vanessa Cannoli: I mentioned I think two weeks ago that Stepford here is all geared up for "roasting" people...

[09:09] Vanessa Cannoli: which is pretty extreme lol

[09:09] ⱡ Shey đ’Hecate ⱡ  (cuddleprincess) is online.

[09:09] Vanessa Cannoli: "being invited for dinner" takes on a new meaning!

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: I actually knew a Domme here who claimed she had created the first dolcett/vore sim here...she was quite proud of it in fact. I have no idea if she was telling the truth though...and didn't want a tour of that sim either..... ;)

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks wombaticus!

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: Cyan we come to you please!

[09:12] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): Thank you Vanni

[09:12] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): As you say, extreme is relative.  Perhaps the most extreme play I have tried to recreate here is sensory deprivation.  As you say, it is all in the mind here.  But I think I have been able to recreate it somewhat using AnaVision and restrictions on IMs, movement, etc.  And using outfits that visually reproduce it, like full rubber suits or something similar.  Recreating for the sub where they have a black screen and the only communication is with me, and I myself only emoting... seems to have worked somewhat.  Is it RL?  no.  But imagination can be powerful if both are vested in it.  I would also add that even though something like this is online only and imagination only, if both are so invested in it emotionally, aftercare is just as important as any RL scene.

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: I 100% agree!

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: and theater of the mind can have a profound effect

[09:14] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:14] Vanessa Cannoli: I mean, I hear people have sex in SL....

[09:14] Vanessa Cannoli: and it's satisfying....so I hear

[09:14] wombaticus: Helps of the computers are 2 feet away from eachother. heh heh

[09:14] Vanessa Cannoli: so if sex can be satisfying then I think any form of play can have a strong effect using the tools you mentioned, Cyan

[09:15] Vanessa Cannoli: lol wombi

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: people can get involved in things they can't do in First Life here.....and that's anything one can think of and tools are available to make it as "real" as possible

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: it's why I don't like doing uh....things I've heard of....with just text.  This is a visual medium, and the visualization WITH the words makes it a lot more real

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: but just visual is porn and boring too

[09:17] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I would agree somewhat  however words can be powerful

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: I could watch Pornhub if I want that

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: not that I would!

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: oh yes

[09:18] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Lucky you!  I live in FL we don't have that access without giving our "Free State of FL" Government our ID

[09:18] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I have engaged with one or two people that had a gift for words, and the visuals become irrelevant

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: sure

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: I see the visual as more augmenting than necessary

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: and everyone is different

[09:19] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks Cyan! ♥

[09:22] Vanessa Cannoli: Sydney you are up please!

[09:22] Sydney ღ Dark (badvudo): *looks back over her shoulder to her Master before talking*  The tattoo and piercing Sire did initially made me very nervous.  I do not like needles at all ... never.  Interns had to hold me down one time for a shot.  My mother was devastated.  But I knew Sire cared for me and would be there.  I fully trust him ... that made the roleplay interesting if not exciting and the piercing had meaning for both of us showing I was his.  Would I do any of this with someone else ... no.

[09:23] Sydney ღ Dark (badvudo): extreme for me is cutting and blood but it is hard to say the things I enjoyed in the far past are extreme.  Wax play mixed with ice was a favorite.  There was a time I had the careful use of fire in little areas.  The light use of electro .. nothing too stingy/shocking.  SL is a little harder to "feel" what this type of play provides but creative dialog can make the mind imagine how it would feel.  Having it done in RL does help to know the feel in SL.#

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: Agreed on that Sydney!

[09:24] Cee (purringfox.mcmillan): Having had things done in real can have a huge difference in playing inworld

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: being able to experience these things in First Life made SL a lot better....maybe that's why we find sex satisfying here as know "how it feels" heh heh

[09:25] Cee (purringfox.mcmillan): I reached for mouse and hit enter

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: and I'm glad you and your Master have such a close relationship that you could experience those things with him, Sydney!

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: no worries Cee!

[09:27] Vanessa Cannoli: and it works as you seem to have been responding to Sydney?

[09:29] Cee (purringfox.mcmillan): Having things done in real can have a huge impact on what you can imagine but I would also like to point out that some things not looked at as extreme can be extremely dangerous in real such as shibari. I have seen permanent nerve damage cause by poor rigging, in this case playing in SL is a safer place to practice it. #

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli: rigging is lovely to watch but yeah it can cause damage...then again anything can if done wrong

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: I don't have patience for rigging anyway lol...lovely to watch but I wanna get to the hot party action when I'm in a scene!

[09:31] Cee (purringfox.mcmillan): me too

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: thanks Cee and *reaches over and gives Sydney's hand a squeeze* thank you lovely!

[09:32] Vanessa Cannoli: good comments!

[09:32] Sydney ღ Dark (badvudo): *smiles shyly to Mistress Vanni*

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli smiles and winks back

[09:35] Vanessa Cannoli: Cyan we go back to you then!

[09:37] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): a thought occurs to me that whie SL does indeed remove a lot of the risk physically, I think it is important to consider the emotonal state of someone as well.  It is hard, if not impossible to tell what a person online is actually doing in RL, much less being able to help or prevent them from doing it.  I have personally had a situation where the person I engaged with showed signs of real issues so I cut off the play.  Nothing I could do to help them, but I was not going to contribute to it.

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: Very true!

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: no

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: VERY VERY TRUE

[09:37] Kat Pugilist (katrina.pugilist) is offline.

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: unless one is caming or voicing with the other, what's going on there is impossible to truly know

[09:39] Vanessa Cannoli: when I first play with a person in First Life, we always start small...no major implements or scene

[09:39] Vanessa Cannoli: then as trust builds move up

[09:39] Vanessa Cannoli: I sort of keep the same thing here

[09:39] Vanessa Cannoli: and I think Cyan that might help to alleviate some of that concern we all should have

[09:40] Vanessa Cannoli: if they respond oddly in a small scene, like some spanking, it's prob a clear sign to not go further

[09:40] Vanessa Cannoli: but we can never know for sure, we just have to be as responsible as we can

[09:40] Vanessa Cannoli: that's a super important point Cyan and I am so glad you brought it up

[09:41] Vanessa Cannoli: Thank you!

[09:41] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) smiles

[09:44] Vanessa Cannoli: We'll call it a wrap for today.  thanks for all your participation!

[09:45] Vanessa Cannoli: back in two weeks to talk about Domination!

[09:45] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Thank you Vanni!  Thank you everyone :)

H is for Humiliation! -- June 28, 2026

 [08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: OK I think we are it for today so let's start up

[08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:39] Vanessa Cannoli: We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[08:39] Vanessa Cannoli: If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[08:39] Vanessa Cannoli: Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: As usual I have some exposition to start with

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: as I yammer a bit feel free to put a C or a Q in the queue

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: ok here we go!

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: Over the past few weeks we have been going over the BDSM acronym

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: we finished B/D and went into S/M.  The last four weeks we have talked about general ideas of Sado-Masochism.

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: This week we start more specific kinds of discussions, in this case, Humiliation play.

[08:42] Vanessa Cannoli: Some people find humiliation puzzling -- why would people *want* to be humiliated?  What kind of kick do they get out of it?  Some find it horribly offensive.

[08:42] Vanessa Cannoli: The important thing is ... here at Xaara, as long as things fall in to SSC kinds of activities, then what people do is their biz.  We can not like it, we can say to ourselves "I'd never do that" but we're not going to judge it here.

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: When we think of "humiliation" we usually think of a bottom or sub being trampled on, their Dom  or Top telling them they are worthless shit, doing Golden or Roman Showers on them.

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: Just because that was my Friday night fun...don't judge me.

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: :P

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:44] Jeannie (jeannefrank) grins

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: But in all honesty, more of us do very subtle forms of humiliation than we think, and people that enjoy this kind of kink are not "strange", they have their kink and are enjoying it with people who share it.  It's all good and yummy!

[08:45] Vanessa Cannoli: Let's use a subtle example here:  how many subs here enjoy to be leashed, and how many of our Dominants enjoy putting an S-Type on a leash?

[08:45] Vanessa Cannoli raises both hands being a switch

[08:45] Johan Dark (wjohanw): *raises hand and tugs Sydney's hair with his free hand*

[08:45] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): i love to be leashed

[08:45] Jeannie (jeannefrank): raises hand

[08:45] SierraMysst joisn Vanessa waving two hands

[08:46] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) smiles and rases hand, loves to use a leash on a sub

[08:46] Georges (nobutnoif): rises one hand to Miss Vanessa

[08:46] Vanessa Cannoli hums "please re-leash me, never let me go...."

[08:46] SierraMysst laughs

[08:46] Georges (nobutnoif): smiles

[08:46] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): yes leashes to me aren't humiliating, they are comforting :D

[08:46] Rhonda Bachem (vvranaavv) raises my hand after catching up

[08:46] Vanessa Cannoli: So most of us enjoy either doing something we do to an animal, or being leashed like a dog or what not...but that's not how we usually *think* of it.

[08:47] Vanessa Cannoli: But if we walked around in polite, vanilla society with a person on a leash or on a leash ourselves, we would be stared at, comments would be made and shock would be real.

[08:47] Vanessa Cannoli: And the feeling of connection that is made via a leash is also a form of external "look at my sub on my leash, they are mine" or "I belong to my Dom , they have me leashed."

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: Right??

[08:48] SierraMysst mutters, "You should see the  fngers that have been pointed at me when I leashed my sub"

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: I can imagine Sierra!

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: So we get a kick out of something that is simple in form but meaningful as it's a symbol of power..and it's also putting the person *on* the leash in their place.  It's a symbol of power exchange.

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: Before we go to comments I want to discuss quickly three kinds of humiliation play.

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: The first kind is what termed "Status Humiliation".

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: This is some kind of activity where the Bottom/Sub is moved down the hierarchy to be sure they, and everyone around knows, that the target is under the authority and rule of the Top/Dominant.

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: Leashing is a perfect but fairly low key example of this.

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: Subbies and switches, you know what I mean when a Dominant puts us "where we belong"....

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: Even public commands, "do this, kneel in this position, take your clothes off, eat that banana upside down" are all examples of that power exchange done in public.

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: It can be done in public orders like "walk two steps behind me" or "kneel at the Pier Bar and say nothing until I order you to do so."

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: All those are emblems of the power exchange and to make the S-type feel the power of the Dominant.  And what a thrill it gives the object of the power! ♥

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli wonders how many are fanning themselves.....

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: :P

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: The second kind of humiliation play is Object Humiliation.  This is when the bottom/sub is turned into some form of object or perhaps an animal.

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: Petplay, PonyPlay and the like are examples.

[08:52] SierraMysst is just squirming on her towel

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: They create a "depersonalization" of the S-Type.

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: A person can also be turned into an object.  Making a sub into a footrest is a pretty classic example.

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: At a RL party I went to years ago at a Dom's apartment, he had his girl turned into a lamp.

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: She was in her bra and panties with a lampshade on her head and was holding one of those low wattage Ikea lights on a cord

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: He gave her a break every ten or so minutes to move around, drink, use the restroom and stretch, and then she was back in the corner being a lamp.

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: It was quite a "bright idea!"

[08:53] SierraMysst mutters, "I would have made her be naked"

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:53] SierraMysst groans

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: I think as it was her first time as a lamp they agreed her undies.

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: believe me she was ultra sexy

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: and we all complimented her for her behavior

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: which gave her a huge grin!

[08:54] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): aw that's awesome

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: it was WATT she wanted!

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: sorry sorry

[08:55] SierraMysst: A.. umm.. "Bright Smile" .. so to speak

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli grins

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: The third kind of humiliation play is the most dicey one.  Emotional Humiliation.  This is where the Top/Dominant does use some kind of name calling, or humiliating acts, that are *****NEGOTIATED***** with the sub.

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: Note the big word there:  Negotiated!!!!!

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: For example, in a scene where I am the bottom, I'm quite happy to be called "Bitch" "whore" or have certain degrading things done to me that have been *NEGOTIATED* beforehand.

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli takes away the pencils from the Dom/mes in the room who might have their own "bright ideas" after my admission....

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli: ;)

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli: OUT of that, if someone calls me "whore" or bitch where it is not negotiated, they're gonna find out what a half Sicilian, half Brazilian woman does to show her...ire.

[08:56] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): heard on that Vanessa

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli: Like the guy at a Flogging Molly concert that grabbed me while really drunk, and I punched him right in the face and he fell into his buddies who laughed at him.

[08:57] Johan Dark (wjohanw): There fore the grace of god - he went :)

[08:57] Vanessa Cannoli: On the way out of the concert, a security guard came up to me and said "I saw him grab you and was about to eject him, but you handled it well!" lol

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: which would never happen if a guy punched a guy

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: but a girl punching a guy in the face...I guess amusing!

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: anyway I digress

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: All that said, with negotiation, Emotional Humiliation can be a fun thing for the Dominant and sub with proper care and control.  But NEVER do this minus a lot of negotiation, understanding and checking in.

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: ): And during aftercare talk about it, see how it went and modify the next time, if there is one.

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: Ok that's my discourse on this.

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: We now throw it open to the August Assembly...do Y/you enjoy Humiliation play?  Avoid it like the plague?  If Y/you do it, how is it kept SSC?  Have Y/you seen good and/or bad examples of this?

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: We'll start with Sierra, please toss in Cs and Qs as you wish!

[09:02] SierraMysst: Well, my comment was specifically about 'status'. And yes, a leash is a very common and very effective means of establishing 'the order'.. I have found that selecting the subs wardrobe can be JUST as effective  Choosing my subs outfits and insuring they are scanty and revealing definitely reminds her of her place. #

[09:02] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes!!!!

[09:02] Vanessa Cannoli: Some subs use those websites that have all their outfits in them and the Dom/me can go on the page and select what they will wear anytime the Dom/me wants

[09:03] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): yes the Wardrobe

[09:03] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes

[09:03] Vanessa Cannoli: it's really cool for the sub that wants total control of their look given to their Dominant

[09:04] Vanessa Cannoli: Others like to simply be told "wear this or that and that hair"

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks for that comment and bringing up wardrobe...a fun way to connect to status.

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: We go to wombaticus!

[09:06] Vanessa Cannoli: who has a question

[09:06] wombaticus: How would that work in my situation? The "changed into an animal", situation. I was "changed" to a horse many years ago. lol

[09:07] Vanessa Cannoli: Well that's just one option....does anyone have an idea of how wombaticus could get into a different form of object play of some sort?  Don't C, just answer please.

[09:08] Jeannie (jeannefrank): A Dominant could order him to change to a different animal.

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: there you go!

[09:08] SierraMysst: There's always "Bibbity Bobbity BOO.. Poof you're a unicorn and I'm using that horn as my dildo?"

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: heh heh

[09:08] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I think it would depend on the dynamic between you and a Dom/me.  It would depend on what you find humiliating.  For axample, are you a stallion?  then maybe being treated as a draft horse...

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: any form of consensual play is great!

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: yes!

[09:09] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Good question!   It 'may' or 'may not' work in your situation,  being a Horse is something you enjoy and don't find taboo or humiliating. But, for some the idea of taking a Human Person, and stripping them naked, binding them... putting them into a horse tail, a collar/bit'lead/gag,   telling them "Ponies don't talk!" and making them behave as if they are animal completely, can be humiliating in different forms.    ::nods:: To Cyan,  Or several times you've brought up your Halter.. If someone asked you in private for consent to use your halter and lead you around, and you enjoyed being led by them because its outside your normal 'freedom' it could be considered Humiliation play.

[09:09] Vanessa Cannoli: oooo

[09:09] SierraMysst: And there in lies the secret.. CONSENTUAL. .I mean, i can probably come up with a lot of ideas. but, what would wombaticus CONSENT to is the question.. hence... that big word.. "NEGOTIATION"

[09:10] Vanessa Cannoli: 100% Sierra

[09:10] wombaticus: Ok. I DO enjoy being led by halter, going to "eexcersie, etc. lol

[09:10] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:10] SierraMysst: Have him draw my Surry (with the fringe on the top)

[09:11] wombaticus: And I am ridable, so my #1 rider can control my movements, so.

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: Or...as you are comfortable as a horse, just turn it around and be ordered to be a human again for some period of time

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: that would be the 'objectification'

[09:11] SierraMysst: Lots of pink ribbons in his mane, a bit rainbow bow around his tail.....

[09:11] wombaticus: AH! THAT is a different concept. lol

[09:11] wombaticus: Ok. That answers my question, then. Thank you. #

[09:12] SylviaAurelia: I know someone who enjoys roleplaying the frustration of being a human who has been turned into a chicken and unable to speak and having people just treat them exactly like a chicken, feed them corn, put them in a coop, where the pretext is the human does not even know the chicken is a human.

[09:12] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes Sylvia, that is a clear form of object/animal humiliation (not that we want to humiliate animals of course)

[09:12] Johan Dark (wjohanw): I was going to tell them they could go back to being human, but have you seen the price of Egg's lately?

[09:12] Vanessa Cannoli: lol

[09:12] SierraMysst: LOL

[09:12] Jeannie (jeannefrank): LOL

[09:12] wombaticus dies laughing

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: lol

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: wombaticus good question and thanks for making us think!

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: we go to Johan please!

[09:13] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Fair warning -  incoming wall of text (Even more than normal)

[09:13] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Part of my Adept studies was on Humiliation Play, as thats not an area of Kinkdom I was/ or still am super familiar with.  I can DO it, I was a NCO in the USAFR and grew up with a Military Verbally/emotionally abusive parent (who's been making his amends and personal growth so no hard feeling there, it taught me what "NOT" to do as a Parent, and what TO do as a top for Humiliation...

 

But one of the aspects of play I did was some reading which I Highly recommend the book "Enough to Make You Blush" and "The Emotional Play Handbook" as they go over Humiliation play in many aspects that I found enlightening to me.

 

Sierra completely was in my head regarding 'clothing'  such as "You will wear no panties tonight when we go dancing"   Anything that gives that exciting-nervous-taboo feeling is Humiliation Play even if mild.

 

Another of the things they brought up I will quote from my write up rather than bore you with the entire write up "  'Its a way of knowing someone. If you break down what humiliates them, its

[09:13] Johan Dark (wjohanw):  a way of breaking down a person and really knowing them" along with "It's really intimate" and with thought about it, thats very true. Being able to humiliate someone to both/all parties satisfaction does require a more intimacy level than just service or pleasure. You have learn what makes the other person tick.  Sexy can be for sex sake of just physical pleasure, impact scenes can be just for the release of endorphins;  but a successful humiliating scene bares us to our most base core that which either we find humiliating as a recipient and hits our most primal levels, OR being willing to do something that would otherwise be considered mean/hurtful if it weren't that the recipient were a willing and consensually engaging partner who craves such "     #done

[09:15] Vanessa Cannoli: yes Johan!

[09:15] Vanessa Cannoli: See...*consensual* humiliation play is making the object/target giddy with delight, even if others see it and say "what the f**k are they doing?"

[09:16] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: At my RL club a Dom guy brought in a very shy girl, had her strip, and led her around on a collar and chain

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: and said "please tell her how beautiful she is and ask if you may touch her"

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: which we did and at first she was shy and scared...by the end of the evening she was brimming with delight

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: because she had self-esteem issues and this was to help her break out of her shell

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: Vanillas would look and say "wtf is going on?  what is he doing to her??"...but WE get it.

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: All that was 100% spot on Johan, and thanks for sharing from your research.

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: well done!

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: We move to Cyan please!

[09:19] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): First I agree with Johan's comments..

[09:19] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I do like some humiliation play, as long as it is consensual.  It's a matter of finding what the sub finds humiliating.  I tend to be subtle in humiliation play,  no overt acts in public per se.   I view it more as a dynamic between my sub and I and view it more as something that is obvious to us, rather then a public demonstration.  For example, leashing is great in and of itself.  But I use an ankle leash holder for my subs.  Most who look at it think it is maybe just a different or cool leash holder...  but to my sub, it is a way of demonstrating to them that not only are you leashed, this is your place, at my feet. #

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: I love that!!!

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: is the leash on your ankle, the sub's ankle, or both?

[09:20] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): the leash runs from the subs collar to my ankle

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: nice!

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: very smexy

[09:21] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I also have a thigh holder to run the leash to my thingh

[09:21] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): *thigh

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: cool!

[09:21] Rarden Savage (rarden85): with a hidden object you can have the leash go anywhere

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: I love the imagery there

[09:22] Vanessa Cannoli: and the meaning behind it too!

[09:22] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks for that Cyan! ♥

[09:22] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): yes, you can hide them, but that s not the point.

[09:22] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): The sub must see it to remind them

[09:22] Rarden Savage (rarden85): i meant you can make any object into a holder, then add your narrative

[09:23] Rarden Savage (rarden85): you don't have to "find" said object

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: very cool!

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: thanks Cyan!

[09:23] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: Jolly we come to you please

[09:23] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): Thank you - here is my thought: Humiliation, Depersonalization, Degredation, and Depersonalization can be a very slippery slope. Others here have mentioned the critical need for negotiations, especially for the emotional kind... but I wanted to mention that over time, certain acts that were once humiliating may no longer be, and it is part of that growth in our individual journeys. For instance, when I was more into pup play (in RL) I didn't mind eating out of a dish....but these days, not really my thing... so understanding yourself, your limits, and what your triggers are are super important. For instance I love to be leashed...it brings me great comfort. I don't find it humiliating to be at my Master's feet...I know it's my place... so I think it's important to investigate the what and why with a type of degredation and if it fulfills something for the power exchange, why not but definitely discuss it first. #

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: Verry well said!

[09:24] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): thank you, :)

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: It is my belief that any D/s relationship is a DYNAMIC which means it changes just as you said Jolly

[09:24] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): exactly so

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: What was exciting can become ho-hum, what was "no way ever!" can be "wow this is fun!"

[09:25] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): smiles and nods softly

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: so regular communication is 100% necessary...constantly

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: done in a D/s framework of course

[09:25] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): all rel/ships change in time

[09:26] Vanessa Cannoli: but if a Dominant ever told me "You, girl, have no say, just do what you're told"...I'd be running, not walking, to the nearest exit.

[09:26] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): nods to Vanessa

[09:26] Vanessa Cannoli: And you're right Jolly, with Humiliation is this just as important as say impact play.

[09:26] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): perhaps even more so, due to the mental aspects

[09:26] Vanessa Cannoli: We don't just grab a hard paddle and go to town on our sub.

[09:27] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): hopefully not :)

[09:27] Vanessa Cannoli: How can we do that with their mind and emotions???

[09:27] SierraMysst: we don't?

[09:27] Vanessa Cannoli: I hope not...it's negotiated first...THEN the agreed upon paddling! ;)

[09:27] SierraMysst will have to tell Ali we have to stop that

[09:28] SierraMysst: OH.. no.. I don't do ANYTHING we haven't talked about and agreed upon limits and boundaries

[09:28] Vanessa Cannoli: After "50 Shades" came out we had to stop a number of scenes idiots did at the club...tie down their bottom and just start hitting with something willy nilly...no discussion or prep or warm up and the bottom was yelling in not a good way.

[09:29] Vanessa Cannoli: Right Sierra, if it's negotiated "I'll come home, grab the paddle and get to work" and everyone knows what's up....paddle away!

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli: Jolly thanks for that great contribution!

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli: Back to Sierra please

[09:30] SierraMysst: I wanted to bring up a form of humiliation play I didn't see mentioned. I'm not sure what to call it but, I have in the past, trained my subs to orgasm on command and that command is usually the end of a countdown. I start at 5 and count down to 1 and when I say "ONE" they would orgasm. Didn't matter where we were. Most often at a restaurant or theater. They were allowed to TRY to keep as quiet as possible, but, more often than not, they weren't very quiet. #

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: Oh yes!

[09:31] SierraMysst: Spirits, I sound like such a BITCH

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: Orgasm training!!

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: No one here would ever do that!  *giggles*

[09:31] SierraMysst laughs

[09:31] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) smiles, knowing Sierra is not the only one to practice this...

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes that's definitely a form of humiliation play

[09:32] Vanessa Cannoli wonders how many IMs Sierra is getting right now :P

[09:32] wombaticus: Not from this horse! lol

[09:33] SierraMysst is focussed on this discussion. IMs be damned

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes that's a great form of play, thanks for that one Sierra! ♥

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli: Back to Cyan please!

[09:34] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): thank you

[09:34] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): Going back to Jolly's comment I agree.  I think communication is the key.  My one sub currently desires to give up all control to be treated as a slave..  We talk about what this means and how we play.  But as the domme, i feel it is on me to monitor her, to make sure she is ok.  I expect and encourage her to speak up if something is not ok.  As you say, relationships and likes/dislikes change.  I always insist on aftercare and checking on my subs... #

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes yes yes

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: 100%

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: What we call "Porch Time" around here

[09:35] Vanessa Cannoli: "Tell me what's' really going on.  No holding back, we will discuss everything,."

[09:35] Vanessa Cannoli: Cyan you are doing it 100% right

[09:36] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I think it is important to the domme as well.. it can be hard to treat someone in this manner as well

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes, that's a really good point

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: Like Johan said...he can *do* it but that doesn't mean he's really *into* it.  So he has to be taken into consideration as well -- mental and emotional health.  Same for you, Cyan.

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: And again that's any aspect of what we do

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: if you had asked me 15 years ago "would you see yourself tying people up and beating on them, or being tied up and spanked yourself" I'd have responded "You're crazy"

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Now....*ahem*

[09:39] Vanessa Cannoli: So same with this kind of mental/emotional play, communication has to go both ways.

[09:40] Emerald Ceinder (emerald.celestia) is offline.

[09:40] Vanessa Cannoli: Cyan thanks for bringing that up, very important!!

[09:40] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:41] Vanessa Cannoli: any further comments or questions on humiliation play?

[09:41] Exa Bratastic (exa.starchild) is offline.

[09:41] Rhonda Bachem (vvranaavv) nods, "None here."

[09:44] Vanessa Cannoli: ok thank youj all for being here and participating!

[09:44] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): 🫶

[09:44] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): Thanks E/everyone.  And Thanks Vanni for a great discussion  :)

[09:44] Vanessa Cannoli: in two weeks we'll have another topic in S/M before we move to D/s!