"Taking the Step In" -- February 22, 2026

 [16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today our topic is "Entering the Lifestyle"

 

[16:41] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): oooooh!

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): along with what appears to be "serious chat lag" *grr*

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As we are in a BDSM sim and involved in the lifestyle, I like to do this discussion once a year to let us "trade notes" on how we got involved in the lifestyle.

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And whether it's only here in SL or in First Life as well.

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): BTW I do prefer the term "First Life" to "Real Life" as I think we are all real...even though we're 25 forever.... ;)

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): usually...

 

[16:43] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): lol

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I will start with my story and you can put in a C to tell us yours as I go on

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): My real story of this lifestyle starts in my 20s.  I had some inkling of it before but didn't really know much.

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I might have done some kinky stuff then *cough*...but that's neither here nor there.

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But what I did not know was there was a whole lifestyle around kinky stuff!

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): my first voyage into it was good old IRC (Internet Relay Chat) in the 90s

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as there were a lot of people who created kinky channels and were doing text based kinky stuff

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't know how many, if any, in the room were on IRC?  Also AOL and other online services had their own adult, kinky chat rooms.

 

[16:47] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): ICQ!

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!

 

[16:48] Rhizanthella Neximus (PreciousLove Sabra): irc and mirc and aol and yahoo excite chat

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ah yes!

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in the mid 2000s I found SL due to a friend of mine in an online game I was playing doing DJ stuff here

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and not long after I found out there was a big kink community that had gone from text based chat to SL

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I started experimenting in BDSM here and had tons of fun

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then around 2010 started taking steps into the First Life world

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I found a club nearby due to a student who had written a paper for my Sociology of Deviance class on her experiences in that club!

 

[16:50] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): oh wow!

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's kind of a longish story so I'll skip that for now lol

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway I started going to these expos the club had, like market parties where vendors would show up and sell their paddles, floggers, whips and such

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and there were also "taste test" booths where one could have a little bit of some thing done to them...like spanking, flogging, etc

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that really piqued my interest

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so after a few of those I went to a big convention here in Los Angeles, DomConLA

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is the biggest multi day BDSM event on the West Coast that I know of

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and not long after that joined the local club as a member

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I've been a full time pervert for 15ish years now

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): both in First and Second Life

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that's my story of how I got involved!

 

[16:54] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): That's awesome.

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd love to hear yours...and if it's just in SL, don't worry...this is a great place to experience what First Life may not allow for various reasons

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so that's still 100% valid

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok Lyrah go ahead

 

[16:54] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): Thank you Vanni.

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hopefully a few more people will pop in!

 

[16:54] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): Am I able to voice, or are we text onlly?

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): text

 

[16:55] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): ok

 

[16:55] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): I can tell you how I went from sl submissive to rl submissive.

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oooo yes please!

 

[16:55] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): After discussing and questioning all of my D/s friends for months and months, a trusted dominant finally gave me the advice that was the key to my rl self awakening.

 

[16:55] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): He told me to go on fetlife.com and start joining chat groups and asking questions just like I had been doing in sl and to find a few friends.  Specifically, he told me this, "Go to fet, and find your local munch group and befriend the mother hen.  She will invite you in, and protect you from anyone you need protecting from.  She will also be happy to introduce you to everyone and so you'll have a friend when you go."

 

[16:55] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): So I did.  And it worked!

 

[16:56] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): So I made green bean casserole, put on my chuck taylors and headed over all nervous and all!

 

[16:56] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): And it was an informal gathering where I got to make rope for the first time, and meet abunch of normal people just like me, who happened to have kinks

 

[16:57] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): When I did go to my first munch, just after that, I had friends to talk to from that party

 

[16:57] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): From those connections, I went to my first class at the local play space, and the rest is history

 

[16:57] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): But, for those who are looking to step into the rl from sl

 

[16:58] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): from my experience, meeting that mother hen, was really the key that enabled me to have the courage to step out on my own

 

[16:58] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and I've been at it for just over 10 years rl now

 

[16:58] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): it's been a blessing.

 

[16:58] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): the end.

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): \o/

 

[16:58] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  smiles warmly

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wonderful!!

 

[16:59] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): aw shucks

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I should mention that between going to the expos and joining the local club I also went to a few of their munches and Lyrah is spot on...that's the best way to get your toe in

 

[16:59] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): people are so happy to welcome new faces and to give you support

 

[17:00] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): everyone was new once!

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's a low key event at a place to eat (thus a "munch") and you meet the folks that attend the parties...Our "Mother Hen" was Miss Diana who hosted it

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she has been in the Los Angeles BDSM scene since the 70s

 

[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): btw as Lyrah will confirm...if you do go to a local munch, dress in very normal clothing!

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): that's all that's allowed

 

[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone showing up in latex or leather always got us to chuckle lol

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): Grama-friendly attire

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): because it's usually at a local restaurant

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): in a meeting room

 

[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yep

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and we tip well.

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): the management knows why we're there

 

[17:01] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and we want to be welcomed back

 

[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): didn't happen often but once in a while we would get new folks who didn't read the whole announcement .... "Dress in street clothes!"

 

[17:02] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and you don't mention who attends, because you don't want others outing you.  That's the golden rule

 

[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that increased a bit after the 50 Shades movie lol

 

[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes

 

[17:03] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): same with public play spaces.

 

[17:03] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): done.

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there is whole etiquette around attending a club

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I give a whole workshop on that!

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): how to find one and what to do

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Moving to First Life"

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much Lyrah for sharing, I love that you're so immersed in your local kink scene!

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Candice you are up!

 

[17:04] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): i actually never released i started some 30 years ago, not knowing it was fetish/bdsm...when i worked on ships, when i came home i joined a local text chat FL..and chatted to some amazing people learning more my likes/dislikes..i started meeting people following the safety code steps..then found on FB sl advertised for learning RP hence i joined and found Xaara and the safety freedom to share and learn keeps me excited and proud to call it my 2nd life home. ~#

 

[17:04] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): I'm happy to share if I can be helpful to anyone.  Thank you Vanni.

 

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's awesome Candice!

 

[17:05] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): :)

 

[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): have you been involved in the scene most to all of your time in SL

 

[17:07] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): i started in gor, found it ummmh less gor than the books i read, and luckily fell into Xaara

 

[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh

 

[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've not spent time in Gor but from what I get even the "By the Book" sims aren't always quite "by the books"

 

[17:08] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): exactly true true Miss Vanni

 

[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there are Gorean first life groups too

 

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A friend found a message board of a local group that was open to read but you had to be a member to post

 

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I was looking over it and it was...interesting

 

[17:09] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): some locals tried setting up but it was mainly peacock feathers showing

 

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): one thread was where the Masters were debating if their Kajira wives/girlfriends should vote

 

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Most thought no

 

[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but one suggested "Yes, but we fill out their ballots for them"

 

[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they liked that idea

 

[17:10] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): nods ego and peacock feathers

 

[17:10] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): bahahaaha!

 

[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): quite the interesting bunch!

 

[17:10] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): giggles

 

[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but as long as it's consensual it's all good

 

[17:10] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): indeed Miss Vanni

 

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Candice!

 

[17:11] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): my pleasure Miss Vanni

 

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok anyone else want to share their experiences that got them in the scene, either in SL, or also in First Life?

 

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): RB please when ready!

 

[17:13] RB (RBQuinn Resident): So, this is embarrassing......

 

[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no it's not!

 

[17:14] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): this is a safe space Sir

 

[17:14] RB (RBQuinn Resident): 20 years ago my gf at the time showed up one day saying she thought she might be 'a submissive'

 

[17:14] RB (RBQuinn Resident): *winks at Vanni and Lyrah*

 

[17:14] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): !!

 

[17:14] RB (RBQuinn Resident): This is all inside SL, btw.

 

[17:15] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Well, I was aghast.

 

[17:15] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I knew nothing about 'the lifestyle' and assumed the most horrible things about both sides of the slash.

 

[17:16] RB (RBQuinn Resident): But, I'm a supportive guy so I gritted my teeth and we went off to find BDSM

 

[17:17] RB (RBQuinn Resident): As we visited different sims dedicated to various aspects, things started to click in my head, and I could see myself 'in there'.

 

[17:17] RB (RBQuinn Resident): 20 years later..... I still am 'here' :)

 

[17:17] RB (RBQuinn Resident): #

 

[17:18] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): yay

 

[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): woot!

 

[17:18] Connie (Constanse Levenque):  lifts her arms in the air and cheers quietly

 

 

[09:18] RB (rbquinn) smiles around

 

[09:19] Lyrah Lane: Congratulations, Sir!

 

[09:19] Vanessa Cannoli: What happens is a good number of people (not saying you RB, or anyone here, just in general) find out about BDSM via porn...and think BDSM as portrayed in a porn is what we do

 

[09:19] Lyrah Lane: ... amd Connie!

 

[09:19] Vanessa Cannoli: so they think we're sick and twisted...but porn doesn't show real sex never mind real BDSM

 

[09:20] ayelara K (giadagalatea): smiles,  whispers, "just when I though I was out, they pull me back in"

 

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: so when they meet real kinky people and find out we're quite "normal" except when we're having our kinky fun, they realize it's not what they thought

 

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: and I think it's quite normal to flog a willing subject anyway...

 

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: ;)

 

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: so we break the stereotypes

 

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: I'm glad you got into it RB :)

 

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: And that you and Connie have such a great connection too

 

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks! ♥

 

[09:21] RB (rbquinn) smiles and nods

 

[09:21] Connie (constanse.levenque) smiles and hides behind His leg

 

[09:21] Connie (constanse.levenque): ❤

 

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: Back to Lyrah

 

[09:21] Lyrah Lane: Thank you.  You know when I heard about BDSM, before I became a card carrying member, that is, I thought it was people enjoying cruelty, as well.

 

[09:22] Lyrah Lane: What I loved about it, was that it could be planned out

 

[09:22] Lyrah Lane: negotiated

 

[09:22] Lyrah Lane: I could get what I want, and my partner the same

 

[09:23] Lyrah Lane: before I figured it out, I never knew what to expect from a partner, or what he should expect of me

 

[09:23] Lyrah Lane: and I also enjoy the safety of public play

 

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: 💯

 

[09:23] Lyrah Lane: that eyes are watching to make sure things dont get out of hand, there are safewords

 

[09:23] Lyrah Lane: I feel much safer practicing ethical BDSM than I ever did in a vanilla relationship.

 

[09:23] Lyrah Lane: done.

 

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: Totally!

 

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: at the club, we have had only a few times in my experiences there for all these years that anyone yelled "red"

 

[17:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the few times it did happen, not only the Dungeon Monitor but everyone free went to see what was going on

 

[17:24] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): but that's a good thing

 

[17:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes!

 

[17:25] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): you CAN call red when needed

 

[17:25] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): awesome

 

[17:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and people will come running

 

[17:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's as safe as it can possibly be made

 

[17:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sure sometimes mistakes happen, a whip goes out of control for a sec, a hit is a little too hard

 

[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the people have sense to stop and deal with it immediately in 99% of the cases

 

[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree--- public play is much safer than anything done behind "closed doors"

 

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and yummy to watch too!

 

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks Lyrah!

 

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone else have a tale to tell?

 

[17:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hi Ema!

 

[17:28] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): hello Miss :)

 

[17:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We're discussing how we got into the scene

 

[17:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but we may be done ;)

 

[17:29] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): oh for me dead easy :):)

 

[17:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go for it!

 

[17:29] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): i met Lizzie in fogbound :)

 

[17:29] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): i knew nothing of D/s

 

[17:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ooo bound in the fog

 

[17:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): kinky!

 

[17:30] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): hehehe

 

[17:30] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): but she had a link to mountain biking in her profile so we started talking

 

[17:30] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): and that led to me being owned by her for 8 years !!!:)

 

[17:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nice!

 

[17:31] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): nice Ema

 

[17:31] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): always have an open heart :):) smiles

 

[17:31] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): #

 

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): you never know where that perfect Dominant or sub might be waiting!

 

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Ema!!

 

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥

 

[17:32] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): lexically Miss  i was so full of questions :)

 

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone else?

 

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh sure!

 

[17:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the step in can be scary...but seriously...can anyone really think of just being 100% vanilla after getting involved?

 

[17:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I couldn't

 

[17:33] Connie (Constanse Levenque):  shakes head

 

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): too much fun *giggles*

 

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): last call

 

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone else?

 

[17:34] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): you can not un learn Miss surley :):)

 

[17:34] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): rolls the drum

 

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Blessed are they that flick the whip for theirs is the Kingdom of Kink

 

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): amen

 

[17:35] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): lol

 

[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok then

 

[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): two things...first does anyone that shared today NOT want their contribution shared on the blog

 

[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as this is more personal I want to keep consent

 

[17:35] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): Thank You Miss Vanni, great topic

 

[17:35] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): I don't mind.

 

[17:35] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): thank you for asking,

 

[17:35] Pionika (Pionika Resident): Thank you, Vanessa, for sharing your experiences so wonderfully, and thank you to everyone who shared. It was a very interesting conversation. The time flew by.

 

[17:35]  (Pionika's SV Translator ru>en): Thank you, Vanessa, for sharing your experiences so wonderfully, and thank you to everyone who shared.

 

[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[17:36] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): mine is free to share Miss Vanni

 

[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so you're all good with the transcript

 

[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ?

 

[17:36] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Yes, Vanni

 

[17:36] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): nods happly yes miss

 

[17:36] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): Thank you for the food for thought!  I enjoyed this today, Vanni.   Thank you everyone.

 

[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): everyone knows my story

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Second, starting in two weeks we begin our yearly wind through the BDSM acronym

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we'll start with "B is for Bondage"

 

[17:37] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  cheers

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so be here to share your bondage kinks *grins*

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well talk

 

[17:37] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): o.o

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and act if you want lol

 

[17:37] Candice :::HotD::: (CandiceElla Resident): lol

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): other than that thanks for a great chat!

"Use of External Communication" -- February 8, 2026

 [16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok I think we are it today so let's get started

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[16:41]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Welcome all to today's discussion!

[16:41]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Our moderator for this session will be Vanessa Cannoli

[16:41]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): The discussion will be run in a C - Comment, Q - Question format.

[16:41]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Just type a C or a Q in local to be added to the speaker list.

[16:41]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): To withdraw your comment type an R

[16:41]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): If you'd like to enter your words anonymously, just touch this box.

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): today the topic is "Using external communications from SL"

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As we all know, living in the 21st Century, we have all manner of instant communication with each other.

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Many moons ago I had a...."pen pal" who lived in Hawaii

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we did some arcane thing called *consults notes*..."write letters" to each other...which meant more than a week went between send and recieve...

[16:43] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i remember those..:)

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): can you imagine that?

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today my students go into a panic if I don't respond to an email in two hours

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we have all manner of ways to instantly communicate

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm sure many of us here are on Discord and at least occasionally look at the Xaara Discord.

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As the Kinky Assistant for the Aspirant and Adept Candidate programs, I keep in regular contact with Chew and Seph in a Discord group we started just for that purpose

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and many D/s and vanilla families in SL will use Discord to connect with each other

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Skype was killed off by Microsoft, they want everyone using "Teams" now, but I've not heard of anyone in Xaara using Teams lol

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I don't know if anything has replaced Skype for it's function

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, for some, such ability to communicate isn't quite enough

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For example, some people in relationships in SL ask, maybe even expect, that their other(s) will get on facetime or some video chat device with them

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Give cell phone numbers to each other

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and essentially make oneself as accessible as they would to a First Life person with whom they have relationship.

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For others, however, being so open to people in SL is a deal breaker.

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So questions to ponder and discuss are:  1) Do Y/you use external comms of any type (Discord, Teams, Facetime, phones, direct teleportation)

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 2) Do Y/you sort of expect that anyone in a relationship with you will use these things?  Or is this a "no, I won't do that" sort of wall that you won't pass?

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll let you mull on that a few moments while i finish my veggie omlette

[16:50] RB (RBQuinn Resident): /me hums "And my number is Beechwood 4-5789....."

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): loll

[16:51] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): mine is 976-CASH

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (showed my age there lol)

[16:52] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): loll

[16:52] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Showed mine even worse...

[16:52] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): 877-CASH-NOW ....

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

[16:52] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): C

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kahlan when ready please!

[16:54] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): Discord is almost a must for me. I use it as an extension of SL, its acts as 'Kahlan's cell phone'... But there i see a lot of RL 'bleeding'. My friends share pictures of their RL and have some of their day to day stories there that they don't want to 'interfere' with SL (more)

[16:55] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): But some of my friends/circles have more immediate communication. some have my facebook, think only a handful (anything medical, my mom is always on it so if i'm not around, my friends here know 'oh, its hospital time again' and don't worry)

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods

[16:56] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): but its all an extension, SL mobile is hard to use as a quick tool, discord, facebook and instagram make this more possible if there are immediate situations or those i just don't want to log in and sit at my computer for ##

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they need to make SL Mobile more friendly for sure

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I logged in and ran over my cats in my house as I could barely move

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they staged a revolt and tossed me out

[16:57] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

[16:58] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): c

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discord is a really good tool for offline connection I agree Kahlan

[16:58] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): /me nods and smiles

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): like I said Chew, Seph and I use it, Imy and I connect a lot via it -- I sent her pics of my lunch yesterday lol

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): revenge for her sushi pics earlier this week

[16:59] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol hope it was something yummy

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh it was!

[16:59] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *wonders if its too late for him to take pictures of the bread pudding he made lastnight*

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well...hopefully the *here it is*...we don't want to see uh...never mind...

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so good points Kahlan!

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): MansooR please

[17:01] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): over time, my division of sl and rl time has become more....distinct? .....

[17:02] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): once out of SL... i tend to swtich off

[17:02] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): and i have found i cant give the same attention on discord as on SL

[17:02] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): more like.."its not teh same"

[17:02] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): c

[17:03] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so even tho i do use discord for SL

[17:03] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i keep it for important things.....

[17:03] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): done

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right and that's on the opposite pole from how Kahlan approaches it...both right for both of you of course!

[17:04] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): c

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people just don't *want* that much connectivity to SL and people here.

[17:04] RB (RBQuinn Resident): C

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which leads to a sort of deeper philosophical question of "is SL a 'place in itself' or 'an extension of First Life?'"

[17:05] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): it feels different .. i dunno

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Immersion vs Augmention...but that's another discussion lol

[17:06] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): heheh

[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks MansooR!

[17:06] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thank oyu!

[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mistress Cherry please!

[17:06] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Thank you Vanni sis :-)

[17:06] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Me and my girls, in fact almost every one in our family has created a so called "safe email adress".

[17:07] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): An mail adress that is only used to communicate outside SL, with other SL family members.

[17:07] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): For us its a perfect way to communicate, let each other know if for example if can’t login due to RL circumstances, or share stories or pictures.

[17:07] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): We don’t use Discord or other communication tools. Guess that tells a lot about OUR age too hehee.

[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *grins*

[17:07] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): The email communication just works fine for us. I check it multiple times a day, just like i check my regular RL related emails.

[17:07] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Its basic, but enough for us.

[17:07] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): That's it :-)

[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent!

[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes Gmail has been around a LONG time and people starting using that first...along with Skype if they wanted more direct connection

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discord is really handy but everyone has to decide just how connected they want to be

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Morse Code and Semaphore might just be a bit too 'old' though... ;)

[17:10] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): hoq qs qw swbr morse these days??

[17:10] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): It's also a way to keep SL and RL separated. Though its real for me... i do have a very busy and responsible job. I can't be connected all the time

[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

[17:10] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): We tried tam tam, but the neighbours started to complain ...

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I am a public employee...if anyone had a pic of me or knew my full name they could find me quickly...down to where I am on any given day

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't need a visit at work

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or anyone knowing where i work

[17:11] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): nods

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's not that i don't trust y'all, I don't trust anyone

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): teaching Criminology for 25 years made me sort of paranoid lol

[17:12] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)

[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hi Connie!

[17:12] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *waves to Connie*

[17:12] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): I once had a phonecall from someone out of SL, in my private office. She lived near me so it seemed. I can tell you, it was a scary experience. Ever since then i learned my lesson and don't give away too much info anymore...

[17:12] RB (RBQuinn Resident): /me smiles at his girl and waves her over

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): omg yeah!

[17:13] Connie (Constanse Levenque): /me tiptoes quietly in and waves to E/everyone

[17:13] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Hello connie :-)

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's really frightening

[17:13] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): /me waves to Connie

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that someone would think that's "ok"

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): wow

[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Mistress Zus! ♥

[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kahlan back to you please!

[17:14] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): I value Sir Mansoor's approach. It feels almost like being able to turn off work mode once you are clocked out for the day. .. I would like to say that I think my being more involved with SL is a direct result of my RL. this is my secondlife. By product of disability, I am homebound and really only get out for doctors and the occasional trip to the store for a change of scenery. Connecting to people in game, and then though discord and other media gets me connected in real time to real events with real people, even if we still use our SL names. this helps to give me a 'healthy social life' as my GP put it, ##

[17:14] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Most welcome, thank you sis :-)

[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh totally Kahlan!  That is awesome that you can get even more connected via social media and other comm tools!

[17:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): My friend Billi who I work with in a Tribute Band is also homebound, and SL is her means of having a social life.  She can't imagine not having it.

[17:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it really is a great way itself to make connection and right, external systems allow that to expand for those that are comfy with it.

[17:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): SL truly is life........and its amazing homw many RL gpas it fills

[17:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): gaps

[17:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just think of Xaara

[17:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so many people can't experience BDSM in their first life...this allows it

[17:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): yup

[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also as a member of the neo-pagan/witch community, I know that it allows people to participate in less common spiritual paths that they can't find around them

[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so yeah it's a great took for connection, and using other tools allows that to expand

[17:18] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i want to know what neo pagan is

[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *tool

[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): beyond the scope of this discussion!

[17:19] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): mhm

[17:19] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): lol I'll message you Mansoor :)

[17:19] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)

[17:19] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): ty Johan

[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Kahlan for your insight! ♥

[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): RB we come to you please!

[17:19] RB (RBQuinn Resident): In the wild and crazy early days of SL, my first gf/sub and I had a very intense and intimate relationship by Skype video calls.  But those sessions essentially replaced being in SL together.  It was heady stuff, but in retrospect, maybe not that ... healthy#

[17:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ah back to 'augmention vs immersion'!!

[17:20] RB (RBQuinn Resident): yes :)

[17:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Vanni's point of view, which is valid for me only, is that the more First Life intrudes into SL, the less this is a "place" and more just a fancy social media system

[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i get people balance it, but like you said RB, it can lead to SL being just something like "Instagram with moving avatars"

[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Like I went to a friend's collaring ceremony (this is a person most of you would know if I said their name but I won't for privacy) and it was all in voice

[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I was like "why are we in SL?  this could have been a video conference call."

[17:23] RB (RBQuinn Resident): /me smiles

[17:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I guess the retort would be "why type when we have more augmenting forms of communication handy."

[17:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's just how everyone rolls, it's all good!

[17:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks RB!

[17:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I have a question to the group, and please just answer if you want don't use a C

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Have you been in an SL relationship where you wanted more use of external comms, but the other was unwilling to go past SL?  Or did the other suggest and maybe even push more use than you were comfortable with?  If so, how was that handled?  Again, this is just if you wish to expound.

[17:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): C

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol no C :P

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just go :P

[17:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): You said 'if I "Don't want too" *playfully bratty*

[17:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It'll take me a moment to type so anyone can jump ahead

[17:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): /me eats up the rest of the bread pudding

[17:28] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): ha

[17:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can answer that I've not been in such a situation as I am very firm that "I'll use email and Discord and that's it."  If someone wants more than that, I'm not for them and we stay friends and I wish them all the best.

[17:29] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): for it was direct excahnge of cell phones.......to saty in touch while i travelled.......back then.. it wasnt intrusive at all

[17:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I have been in a couple of them where of course its kind of a draw to be 'more', whether that be voice, or texting on the phone, etc.  But, its understandable that sometimes people have limitations that can't or won't let them do such.   Its not a deal breaker for me, because the emotions are still there, the feelings and depth of the relationship are still there & I would MUCH rather have them when they are safe and comfortable in what their limits are, than risk losing them. #done

[17:30] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): awww *kisses the sweet one

[17:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥

[17:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no one is ever getting my cell number...i hate the fact my employer has it lol

[17:30] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

[17:30] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): loll

[17:31] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): don't need a cell number, you can text me and call me on discord! lol

[17:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bingo!

[17:31] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): To me, an extension of any relationship out from SL to RL is a hard NO. Like i explained, like Vanni, i have an important job, and that makes me kind of ... vulnerable so to speak

[17:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yeah you don't need someone showing up at work!

[17:32] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Indeed :-)

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if mean if they called you at work they could just as easily show up

[17:32] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): though I still get weirded out voicing/talking but only because i don't talk much regularly out loud. i've gotten more vocal but have to time things just to have a PG talk otherwise other humans in the house think i've gone off the deep end talking to myself outloud,

[17:33] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i can relate to Kahlan on that

[17:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i can't imagine talking to others on discord/sl when my RL partner is around

[17:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she's right next to me ... to me it would seem rude....but that's me

[17:34] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): It could just be 'hi how is your day' but like i said, i don't even talk much in my own home. I text my RL bestie all the time. we only call if somthing big is going down, life and death level events

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that breaks immersion anyway lol

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods

[17:34] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): oh.. NOW i get the meaning of immersion

[17:34] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): yes!

[17:35] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i does get brpken

[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is the classic text on it:  https://villyland.blogspot.com/2012/12/augmentation-vs-immersion-by-henrik_4717.html

[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a sociololgist I've written a lot on this topic

[17:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): /me clicks

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): has anyone else had an experience of more or less external comm desired by another that didn't sit quite right?

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i guess if people live together all this is sort of moot LOL

[17:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "When's breakfast gonna be ready?"  "I told you, AFTER KLATCH!"

[17:38] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): the external communication led me to where i am today :)

[17:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥

[17:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i love that Pilar!

[17:38] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i feel sex is better in chat than voice... one can type eaxctly what one feels

[17:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): omg so years ago I read some social research on SL...a slight majority of SL residents that took this poll said that their sex life was *better* in SL than in First Life!

[17:40] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)

[17:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I wasn't sure if I should hail the use of technology or be concerned lol

[17:41] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

[17:41] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): Hehe

[17:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): today my view is "if it works that's great"

[17:41] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): if you want voice sex, call an operator. I'm awkward as hell on a good day and texting things out gives me time to process and find just the right words better than trying to find 'the right sounds'

[17:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods

[17:41] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): nods

[17:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): plus animations make it a little more 'immersing'

[17:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but over-reliance on this is just as bad lol

[17:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I mentioned before my first SLex ever was a guy putting me on pose balls, flipping around 15 anis in three mins, and yelling 'IZ FUKKIN U' over nd over

[17:43] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lmao

[17:43] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): rofl

[17:43] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): loll

[17:44] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): poses are the salt in the sauce, just enough can make a thing *chefs kiss! ... and too much reliance can ruin the entire thing

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and then disappearing after he uh...whatever....*cough*

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan that C was for your comment before I think?

[17:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Indeed..*takes the last bite of the bread pudding she stole*

[17:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): /me giggles

[17:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): do not tempt me with a good bread pudding

[17:45] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

[17:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i might crawl on the floor to...uh...never mind

[17:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its was pretty damned delicious for my first time ever making it :)

[17:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): don't want to make myself THAT vulerable

[17:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok any final comments that do not involve bread pudding?

[17:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I almost wrote "bread pussing" so guess where my mind went...

[17:46] RB (RBQuinn Resident): /me laughs and shakes his head

[17:46] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)

[17:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I miss Brianne!

[17:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she was my compatriot in humor

[17:47] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol

[17:47] RB (RBQuinn Resident): definitely needs a good drum-roll

[17:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[17:47] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): haha

[17:47] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): If its any consolation, I bit my tongue because I wasn't sure if my comment would have been TOO much overtheline :)

[17:47] RB (RBQuinn Resident): you're allowed to give yourself one

[17:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): /me giggles

[17:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): one pudding over the line sweet jesus, one puddin' over the line

[17:48] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lmao

[17:48] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): thank you for that , now that will be stuck in my head for a while ... until the next comes along

[17:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is stand up with Vanni as much as it's discussion, Pilar

[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

[17:49] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): /me nods nods

[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok then thank you all for being here and participating!

[17:49] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Fun discussion :)

[17:49] Cherry Lysette (Cherry Cloud): I am afraid RL dinner time has arrived for me. All that pudding stuff made me hungry

[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): our topic in two weeks will be 'How we got into D/s and BDSM"

[17:49] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): awesome as usual

[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): an d then in March we start our discussion of the BDSM acronym

"Rules, Interpersonal and Community" -- January 25, 2026

 [16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I think we're ready to roll

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so with that we'll begin

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussion this week is on rules, or as I said in my notice, what we in the social and behavioral sciences call "Norms."

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which has nothing to do with Cheers...if you get the joke... ;)

 

[16:40] Seli (Seliara Elton): "What's shaking Mr Peterson?"

 

[16:40] RB (RBQuinn Resident): is old enough to get it

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:40] Seli (Seliara Elton): "All four cheeks and a couple'a chins, Woody"

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is going to be a discussion of behavior, setting rules, both on an interpersonal level (say between and Dom and sub) and more collectively, on the sim level.

 

[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <-- Met George Wendt at his first Fandom Con a few years ago at Pensacon ;) <3

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): How do we as members of a BDSM community make rules in the D/s relationships we have, here or elsewhere?

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some subs believe that they aren't really supposed to "negotiate" but rather just take whatever rules their Dominant gives them without complaint (which is fine of course with consent!)

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so on one hand we have the interpersonal rules between Dom and sub.

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On the collective level I'd also like to discuss the rules of Xaara, such as they are.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Xaara has few direct rules.  They are found here:  https://xaaracommunity.wordpress.com/page/xaara-principles-and-guidelines/

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In the Principles and Guidelines on the webpage

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Beyond the usual "everything must be consensual, no idiotic behavior" the rules here are minimal.

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact the P&G specifically say this:  "Specific rules will be minimal as everyone is expected to behave as adults."

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is that enough to keep the community going and safe?  Do we need more formalized rules here?  And how do our personal rules we create in our BDSM relationships work with the rules of the sim?  I'd like to think "seamlessly" but you know...not always lol.

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So when formulating a response, take it from either side, or combine them.  How do you make rules in your own relationships (D/s style) or how are they imposed on you?  Do you feel they work as is, or is there give and take on rules over time?  Or, as I said above, you can take it from the community level -- do we have enough rules, too few or too many?  How does Xaara work with our own personal rules and community needs?

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lots of space here to think and answer.

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll let you muddle while I sip coffee...

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seli when you are ready please!

 

[16:49] Seli (Seliara Elton): I've always been a fan of working with "Why" when ever I'm forming rules, rather than just laying them out as things that cannot be violated. I'll focus on the D/s stuff.

 

[16:50] Seli (Seliara Elton): While I will often lay out a rule for Lexi, I think and hope, I mostly explain the thinking and goals behind it. For two reasons: one, I like to set an intention. You will kneel HERE when i snap because it makes us look well practiced and you look amazing at my side.

 

[16:51] Seli (Seliara Elton): But I also think for a second reason to speak about why, is that it gives subs or any "rule followers" latitude to try to reach the spirit and goal of the rule, even if they can't follow the letter of it. I find that to be much more powerful and effective.#

 

[16:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Well said

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love that!

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I also think that rules give submissives a goal to strive for, which flows out of what you said.

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes, maybe one can't do it perfectly every time, but it's the goal to try that and improve.

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And to me, it's willful disobedience that's the problem, not the honest mistake.

 

[16:53] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): From my side, I don't necessarily need the 'why'... I just trust there is a 'Why', even if that 'why' is 'because I want it that way'. But yes, being able to aim for the 'intent' of a rule if not always able to hit the 'letter' of the rule is helpful

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): Sometimes the why is "because it would be HOT."

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and there's room to improve

 

[16:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): ...often, in fact.

 

[16:54] Seli (Seliara Elton):  ruffles Lexi's hair.

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Seli and Lexi for starting us off!

 

[16:55] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I was taught in leadership "because I said so/Because I'm the boss" isn't a great answer -    but in BDSM sometimes its the perfect one :)

 

[16:55] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I like to say "no" we don't need more formalized rules. One of the blessings is that things are open and adaptable with 'expectations' but few 'requirements'.  This allows for the myriad of flavors of D/s * BDSM.  For example, if we were strict in regards to "Subs may only"   That removes the agency for those who are neither Dominant or Submissive, but are more into generalized Kink, or those who are Switches.     As for my own BDSM & D/s relationship, communication and negotiation are the key.  We discuss, negotiate and communicate the need for various changes and adaptations -   There may be times I am more restrictive and times where I am more relaxed on them depending on what is going on, and making sure to communicate the when/why for the changes so as not to create confusion with my girls.  We've determined that Protocols help to keep them in the sub mindset and feed that part of their needs/wants. #done

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I appreciate you gave thoughts on both individual and collective norms!

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A friend was asking me what the expectations of subs are in Xaara.  I said "for a submissive person, simple:  be respectful to Doms and don't be a jerk."

 

[16:58] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Exactly we have few rules, but a couple of expectations - that are flexible based on the relationship.

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Like the website says, know your role and don't be silly toward others, you can get on fine.

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think flexibility on either the interpersonal or collective level is very important.

 

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Like you said, Johan, sometimes the Dom gotta Dominate, and many times it's "let's just keep our D/s roles going" and all's well.

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): time, place and circumstance matter

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I appreciate your answer on both levels!

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

 

[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to the lovely Wynter, please!

 

[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I apologize for the walls of text in advance, but this is a topic I happen to be passionate about. (more)

 

[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Rules for a BDSM community, can be a slippery slope inside of SL. While Xaara has only three "actual" rules that apply to everyone, if you decide to go deeper into the community, more requirements and expectations that are upheld essentially as rules are also imposed upon you. (more)

 

[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Arguments in the past have centered around the idea that you 'consent' to these, whether Dominant or submissive or Angel+. But it's a dubious slope that seems more like coerced compliance than true consent in certain aspects. We talk about respect, I think something else that isn't as talked about is the difference between "SL etiquette" and recognizing the detachment we have from RL, even in a place like Xaara which states itself as an "operating similar to a real world D/s or BDSM club." (more)

 

[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): There are no fast-read tags floating above someone's head to tell you at a glance who is a Dominant or a submissive. Also, typically, there is no requirement to spout off honorifics with someone you just met in RL and would be frowned upon essentially by most as that's something that is typically earned through a negotiated dynamic.#

 

[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): At a D/s club (I attend one on a fairly regular basis) there is no expectation to call anyone anything unless one is in a D/s relationship with that person.

 

[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I've said many times, in the RL Kink World, most people are tops and bottoms -- we get together, get our freak on, and leave.

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There was only one person everyone called "Miss Diana" and only because she was a real "elder" in the community, having been around since the 70s

 

[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Here we try to make it more of a D/s community where Doms and subs can  interact

 

[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So i think in that regard, there are more rules, and like you said Wynter, if one is an Angel or a Seraph, there are more expectations.

 

[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think the theory being "you want deeper submission, here are more expectations"

 

[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and in theory, more activities are expected too

 

[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the question is....does that make a better submissive and/or a better community?  That can be debated yes or no.

 

[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so that's a lot to ponder! :)

 

[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd love if a few more chewed on that a bit and gave response to what Wynter raised!

 

[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thanks Wynter, fabulous thoughts as always

 

[17:08] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  smiles and nods.

 

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm a sociologist so, like you, normative functions of society are always on my mind!

 

[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow, you are up please!

 

[17:10] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): Thank you Vanni, I humbly offer as a Community I think it is a good thing to have Rules, as it creates expectations for our Community and allows for stability.  Personally I think ~~ (more)

 

[17:10] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): I am one who utilizes "Rules" and do so in a NC early on.  Yet as a Dominant, I find so many dominants see Rules as things the submissive should follow.  In contrast I see Rules as norms we should both follow.  As an example- Morning Greeting Protocol, what is the the Norm not only for the sub but for the Dom-- how should I Greet Paca each morning.  Another aspect is- if Paca does not follow a Rule- My first thought is Not what she did wrong, but did I as her Dominant- did I explain the rule sufficiently so that she understood the Rule? (more)

 

[17:10] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): Most of the time any non-adherence to a Rule or Norm is a combination of both parties, along with the vagaries of being in SL and the limitations of this virtual life.

 

[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes!

 

[17:11] Southern Georgia (Southern Georgia): well said vlad

 

[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What we are doing is not a formalized relationship like "Manager/Worker" where a handbook is given and writeups ensue for not following some rule to the letter

 

[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's a growth experience

 

[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): many years ago I attended a BDSM expo here in Los Angeles, and there was a workshop on this very topic -- rules and protocols

 

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Master in the community gave a demo with his girl on a greeting ritual

 

[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): he is Buddhist so the ritual was a sort of mantra where she kneeled and would recite a mantra to him

 

[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so she started but because it was in public, she got scared and started messing up the ritual and started crying, saying "I'm sorry Master."

 

[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but instead of yelling or saying "Get it right girl" he just got down on one knee, cupped her face and said 'You can do it, go on, you got this.'

 

[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and she finished it and he held her tight

 

[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i was sobbing watching this

 

[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it hit me so hard to see his care in giving her this thing to do and how he guided her to finish it

 

[17:16] Connie (Constanse Levenque): ❤

 

[17:16] Opie Harmony (Opie Harmony): <3

 

[17:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So Mr. Darrow, i think that was a perfect example of what you were describing about rules and their use :)

 

[17:16] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): That, I think, tracks with the general sub mindset, we -want- to get it right for the Dom... and punish ourselves if we don't

 

[17:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we as humans are in general harder on ourselves than others are, Lexis ;)

 

[17:17] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): as I enjoy that RL sharing, touching and informative of one way to create power within their dynamic as a RL D/s couple

 

[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes :)

 

[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow very well said, thank you for your thoughts!

 

[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i see Johan typing something (the benefit of chat bubbles) so I'll wait a sec here to see

 

[17:20] Zaphire Georgia (ZaphireMoonTaurus Resident): *replaces her 'C'...quietly"

 

[17:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Zaphire do you still want to comment?

 

[17:21] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the problem with the 'guidelines/expectations'=Rules mindset is it has the opportunity to create more problems.  For ex.   Its generally understood that Submissives should (Angels+ required) to use a Honorific for Dominants.   It's not required that you use their exact title - but an honorific.    My own Submissive Kahlan greeting Laz one day "Good day Sir Laz, its wonderful to see you!"   because she has the mindset that "I" am her Only "Master" and all others are 'SIr/Miss".       Another Dominant jumped into her IM's and chastised her saying "He's Master Laz, Kahlan. He is the owner of the SIM and you need to use his correct title".    Kahlan respectuflly replied "in our agreed relationship my sir, is my only "Master" so I use Sir/Miss for everyone. "   With that the Dominant rightly backed off, but truly they shouldn't have felt the need to involve based on the ACTUAL guidelines of the SIM.   #done.

 

[17:21] Zaphire Georgia (ZaphireMoonTaurus Resident): Oh yes...why thank you. Community rules in D/s spaces must be handled with care, as they govern safety and culture but they cannot and should not be replaced or negotiated D/s authority. Public rules provide a baseline for conduct, yet privately owned dynamics require distinct, individualized rule sets shaped by consent, negotiation, and intent. A submissive’s rules center on service, boundaries, and accountability; a Dominant’s on stewardship, restraint, and ethical authority; a switch’s on clarity and contextual control. When community rules overreach into private personal power exchanges, consent risks shifting from choice to compliance blurring  etiquette with authentic D/s practice rather than supporting it. . I think a suggestion for clarification needs to be provided....when identifying exactly what is considered a 'Xaara Submissive'. ‘Switch’, Tag...collar...etc....and..how the rules apply...or do not...to others.#

 

[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok hee...let's hit both of these

 

[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): first the Xaara rules state that only Sir or Miss are to be used

 

[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anything else is up to the s-type and their Dom if they have one

 

[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So even if I wanted subs calling me "Grande Poobah" that's a wish and I couldn't command it

 

[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I could ask but they always have right of refusal

 

[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i'd look silly too lol

 

[17:25] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): I don't think it's a 'rule' as such, but... At Xaara, Doms sit in chairs, Subs kneel. Though I think that's more a 'role' thing than a 'rule' thing. My point is there is a correlation: roles imply rules.#

 

[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A role is a set of expected behaviors

 

[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which are guided by norms

 

[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but at the same time, the norms flow out  of the role, here as Dominant or Submissive or Vanilla

 

[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's what we call "reciprocal action" in Sociology ;)

 

[17:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which kind of dovetailed into what Zaphire said

 

[17:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  I did like how she contextualized the convergence of community rules to interpersonal ones

 

[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she also said that we need to clarify what each role is.  Does the webpage do an adequate job of that (like Xaara Sub, Dominant, etc) or is more clarification necessary?  (that's a question so feel free to answer if you want, no C please

 

[17:33] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): As a Community we get to decide to follow the expected Norms, or not- the Rules do state "strongly encouraged" regarding honorifics (quotes in original)- My reading is it a rule- No, would it be better if it was a Rule- Yes.  Yet given it is a Norm in our Community, we are better off following this Norm as a Rule.  If we say the Norm is unnecessary or subject to individual interpretation we induce chaos, as compared to stability. Rule to follow from Xaara website:

 

[17:33] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): A Xaara Submissive is *strongly encouraged* to:

• address Xaara Masters or Xaara Mistresses by the titles Master or Mistress, unless the individual gives you specific instruction to the contrary.
• address Xaara dominants (male or female) as Sir or Miss respectively.

 

[17:34] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): There's ambiguity between the different pages on how the rules scale. If you look at the Xaara Submissive expectations, they're actually more 'strict' in application, albeit "*strongly encouraged*".. the expectation actually relaxes when one attains Angel, at least in application of the expectation.

 

[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok so that is something to bring up

 

[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): because while it says that, it's never been enforced to my knowledge by the actual sim owners and SC

 

[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and if Angels and Seraphim get to choose while subs are more "strongly encouraged" then it seems bass-ackwards

 

[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think encouraging all subs to use a title they see is a good thing.

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): unless told not to use it by their own Dom or their conscience

 

[17:37] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): I like how 'rules light' Xaara is... it broadens the appeal of the place, makes it less exclusionary. One of the side effects of SL is because you can make EXACTLY the SL you want... it creates a diaspora where there are an infinite number of 'specific' sims... and community is lost.

 

[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't wanna role play "BDSM North Korea" lol

 

[17:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but lack of rules leads to anarchy, and while Anarchy in the UK is a great song, it's not that great in practice...

 

[17:38] Paca Kynx (LovinReese Resident): the rules as written to me says i do not need to follow proper honorifics and cannot be held accountable for not.  But in the community it is based al the same.  sub use proper protocol, correct honorifics

 

[17:39] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): An as an aside see the genderification of how often a Xaara Master is called Master ( not Sir) as compared to a Xaara Mistress is called Miss ( as compared to the honorific she has earned to be called Mistress).

 

[17:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods

 

[17:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok let me go the queue

 

[17:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexis did you get your intended comment out?

 

[17:41] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): lack of rules doesn't lead to anarchy, anarchy leads to anarchy, rebelling AGAINST rules is anarchy. Societal norms form community common assent forms community. Some basic, fundamental rules are needed for community to function, but otherwise, more rules just become a vice (both the squeezing kind and the addictive kind)

 

[17:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): correct!

 

[17:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The sociologist agrees with you

 

[17:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I simply used "anarchy" as the term we would use, "Anomie" isn't well known and anarchy is sort of close to it

 

[17:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well said thanks lexis!

 

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow did you get your original C out?

 

[17:44] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): I did Ms Vanni thank you

 

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok good!

 

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we will go on to Wynter again as i know she did not get hers out yet

 

[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then we're back on track

 

[17:44] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): So, let me approach this topic from a different angle, one that may not be as easily represented. For those who may be unaware, I'm a late diagnosed high masking autistic who also has rather severe ADHD. BDSM and Consent happen to be two of my special interests. There was a meme one day about sadistically tying up and gagging a neurodivergent submissive and telling them false information about a special interest, and yeah.. the suffering would be real in that case. (more)

 

[17:45] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): For me and for a lot of neurodivergent folks, we're going to pick up on and notice any inequity or perceived injustice in how rules or standards are upheld. It's referred to as "Justice Sensitivity." Put that together with the fact that most of us who are on the spectrum are extremely literal when it comes to anything communicated and our strong desire to follow the rules as we understand them, if we perceive something that doesn't make sense or violates our understanding of the rules, we're going to struggle to make sense of it. (more)

 

[17:45] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I know some might end up being indifferent about that, however when it's estimated that 1 in 5 people are neurodivergent, there's a good chance there's at least 2-3 other neurodivergent people in this room right now by the statistics. For the community at large, that's 20%, which also is about the representation for switches in the lifestyle to put that in perspective. So perhaps a different way of looking at it, is ensuring the rules or expectations can't be subject to interpretation in a way that may create a perceived injustice or inequity. I think that can apply to any place, and thank you for your words, Zaphire. That's essentially what I was trying to say earlier.#

 

[17:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for that Wynter.  I completely understand your viewpoint and I do think that rules should be upheld in an equitable manner.

 

[17:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That said, as I teach criminology and we talk about police, courts and corrections, there is also the concept of discretion

 

[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Meaning agents in the CJ system need to look at a situation and decide what's best there and then

 

[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): give a ticket or not, impose a harsher or lighter sentence to three persons guilty of the same crime?  Facts and circumstances also need to be taken into consideration.

 

[17:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so sometimes equity means not doing always the same thing too.  But the facts and circumstances have to be taken into consideration.

 

[17:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that said, I think what you said, equity is what needs to be kept in mind.

 

[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if a rule is being broken or changed in an arbitrary manner, that is actual the opposite of promoting equity

 

[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's favoritism

 

[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that left unchecked will harm a community

 

[17:51] Paca Kynx (LovinReese Resident): C on vani

 

[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Paca

 

[17:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After Paca we'll go back to you Johan for the last comment of the day

 

[17:54] Paca Kynx (LovinReese Resident): KInda of touching back on Wynter as well. I have BPD.  Master and i had to sit down and adjust the rules so i have room to be able to  accommodate my bad days,  so while there might be "base rules"  they are never a cookie cutter thing.  rightfully so.ALso, i NEED rules. they help my brain be less spicy and i feel more in control of my life to have them.

 

[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!

 

[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are humans, we're all dynamic

 

[17:55] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  smiles and nods.

 

[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we change over time

 

[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so rules can't be written on a stone in cuneiform lol

 

[17:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and each person has to be looked at with their own needs and desires.  Spot on!

 

[17:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you Wynter, what you said is very spot on as well

 

[17:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok Johan go ahead and give it us  as our last comment for the day!

 

[17:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident):  I think the disconnect between the various guidelines on the website between "Submissive-Angel-Seraph" is largely due to different pages being updated at different times by different people.  From my understanding a few of the pages have been overhauled while others may not yet have been.    I know that some of the pages and guidelines  were updated (particularly the Angel/CS Guidelines) but other ones probably were not. Another thing to consider is the something that comes up often in sports * rpg's  "Rules as Written (RAW) vs. Rules as Intended"   

 

[17:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident):  key to Airpower"  (and I used to add, and help prevent injuries during physical activity) #done

 

[17:58] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  smirks knowingly about the RAW reference.

 

[17:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly!

 

[17:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which was my comment with police and courts

 

[17:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Robo-Cop and Robo-Judge are what we want to avoid

 

[17:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): human elements in CJ and Military and other institutions are very important

 

[17:59] Seli (Seliara Elton):  takes a note: "At Xaara, we like it RAW (?)"

 

[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol!

 

[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well that's a personal preference!

 

[18:00] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Consensually of course :)

 

[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But right, I agree Johan, rules are good but context matters.

 

[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent conversation!

 

[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Remember we are kicking ideas around here

 

[18:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which helps the community thrive

 

[18:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): finally i'd like to remind y'all about our Graduation Ceremony next week

 

[18:01] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): Thank You Mistress Vanni :) and all wonderful thoughts shared

 

[18:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): someone here *looks at Johan* is gonna become a full on Master Adept I hear!