Service Tops and Bottoms -- September 5, 2026

 [15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): (I like hands at the bottom, not Cs!) :P

 

[15:43] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): will try to remember the preference

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:43] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I do have my usual bit of exposition

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so feel free to say "C" or "Q" as  I ramble a bit and then we'll go to the queue!

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We are coming to the end of our series on the BDSM acronym

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): this week our topic is Service Tops and Bottoms

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and in two weeks we go over the much maligned and misunderstood BRAT

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and yes bring the mustard, onions, peppers and saurkraut

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  points to RB

 

[15:46] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you!

 

[15:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Curry Ketchup for me and brochen please

 

[15:46] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): BRATS are the Wurst!

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): mmm

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:46] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ouch

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So this week, in our second to final discussion in this series, we will go over the concept of the "Service Top" and "Service Bottom"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): There are a lot of different ways to define these, and I'm hoping in this discussion we can really "Flesh Out" the idea

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): In general a Service Top is a person that is not heavily drawn to BDSM acts like tying, flogging, etc, stuff we associate with the "Top" in a scene.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): This could be for example a Dominant who is heavily drawn to the D/s aspect of the connection, but will flog/beat on their charge to keep them happy.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Or it could be a person that identifies more as "sub" but will take on the Top role for another, maybe another member of the D/s family, or even at times their Owner who likes to switch.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Likewise a "Service Bottom" is a person who may not be very drawn to the BDSM aspect of things, but will willingly serve another as a bottom, within their limits, of course.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So perhaps a sub who knows their Dominant really likes flogging, and will consent to being flogged, while reading another chapter of "Great Expectations" while it's going on lol...

 

[15:49] RB (RBQuinn Resident): laughs

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Or is that "G R A T E Expectations...when the  Dom hauls out the grater...."

 

[15:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "It was the best of times, it was the wurst of times" Great Expectations in Brats.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL

 

[15:50] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  rolling my eyes

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Service can also be purely what it sounds like, *service*

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Meaning a sub might not be interested in BDSM as all but does like doing domestic duties, or serving a family or the community in some way that doesn't involve what we normally think of as BDSM

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So what we're getting at here is a person who will quite willingly get into BDSM with another, even if it's not exactly their cup of tea, as the want the other happy

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): or finds other ways to serve that aren't tied to what we think of in our kinky lifestyle

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and of course, you might have a somewhat different view of what a Service Top or Bottom is

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Are you involved with this kind of connection?  Do you another definition or viewpoint on it?  Do you find it puzzling?

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh one more thing

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people may well create contracts to do BDSM

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Like "I'll be your servant/sub/slave for this amount of time, willing to do this or that, and you will provide me with x,y and z"

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people find that too cold and calculating, but honestly, such contracts are somewhat common

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but that's another form of service, just with a notarized document!

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I'm done rambling...what do you all think

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan when you are ready please

 

[15:56] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think you've nailed it pretty well.   I am a service top, and not necessarily a sadist (though my bratty Dom side does have a bit of fiend in me).   I am still Dominant, but not a 'I want to cause you pain' type.  I'm a "I truly get off on my sub/partners getting off."   so, the beating Sydney's sexy backside black and blue by itself does little to nothing for me -  but the fact it makes her wiggle/squirm/moan and provides a weeks worth of good endorphins and pleasure - means everything.   #done

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  wiggles a bit myself

 

[15:58] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  nods and smiles to Johan's description

 

[15:58] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *moves against Sire's leg and hides while giggling*

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so as a follow up, if Sydney wasn't into said black and bluing from time to time, the lack of S/M in your connection wouldn't really be an issue to you, Johan?  The emotional and D/s connection would be more than enough?

 

[16:00] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100% would be more than enough, I do love her leashed and kneeling at my feet, (and sometimes) cuddling, and dancing, and I love her in Pony Tack

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  smiles big

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I love that!

 

[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I often have to remember she needs the masochism as well

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods

 

[16:01] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): nods at what he said

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks so much for that Johan, and you as well lovely Sydney ♥

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne you're up when ready!

 

[16:03] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): Thank yoiu, Vanessa. I have operted this way toward my partners for a long time, and sometimes it confuses them...because I do not seek an agressive stance most of the time...unless I know wh=she needs it, and she is my primary focus. #end

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So you are less likely to get into the S/M kind of activity unless your partner is really kinky and needs it, then you will do it for their happiness?

 

[16:06] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): If I am on my own, then I will gravitte to my style, but I am intently trying to read and disern her needs and will go up to my comfort level to give her what she needs. In general I don't wind up with hrdcore masochists as artners

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): nods

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): this is why negotiation prior to any collar is a 100% necessity!

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "Here wear this collar...now what do you like?  What?  EEWW!"

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): usually a recipe for disaster!

 

[16:08] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): agreed, both of us have to know the neds of the other\

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so you're doing it right Shayne!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks for the comment!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan we come to you please!

 

[16:09] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I appreciate the comments.  I think I may lean in that direction, but there are aspects of being a TPE domme that I find I do need in the relationship.   But I have always been open to the needs of my subs and what I can do to meet those needs.  I just had never thought of it framed in the manner of a service top...  gives me something to think about :) #

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I think some Dominants feel the term "Service Top" makes it seem that they're just providing a "service" to their sub, so it's in some way ... maybe demeaning?  But that's not the intent

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Like "I'm not just a walking paddle for you, young lady!"

 

[16:11] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):  smiles

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It means more "This isn't my favorite thing but I know you need it and I'm happy to give it even if it's not totally my thrill"....and of course I'd think the sub would also do things for their Dom in a similar manner.

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Like y'all know (or most do) that I switch, I had a Mistress in SL years ago that was really into pony play.  I have no animosity to pony but it's just not my gig, but I did it with her as it was important to her.

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So I guess for a while I was a "Service Pony" lol

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And no I have NO pics of that

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And if you do, they aren't of me, I wasn't even there!

 

[16:13] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): darn

 

[16:13] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): grins oo bad

 

[16:13] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): lol

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  grins

 

[16:13] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): guess that got a rise

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): You perverts, that's why I love you!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan thanks so much for that, great comment!

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia please!

 

[16:14] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): From my perspective as a Sub.....there is a part of me that would KNOW the Dominant really is not "into" our actions, and somehow that ...at least for me....would make the experience and scene less than satisfying. I guess having said that....a Service Top is not what i would need...i want someone fully into the experience as i am.#

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a totally valid way to look at it, Hestia!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "If they're not into it, then I can't really get into the moment."

 

[16:16] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): nods

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm curious if anyone agrees with Hestia's take or has a different view?  Feel free to give an opinion, don't C please.

 

[16:17] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): well, I understand her viewpoint, and as a top, it certainly helps to be involved and interested in a wide array of kinks...

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Lyra are you commenting on what I asked or a new comment?

 

[16:18] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): commenting to Hestia

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead

 

[16:18] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): Everyone is different.  You can grow and change your mind and try new things and experiment.

 

[16:18] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): Everyone is different

 

[16:18] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and you find your match by trying things out

 

[16:19] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and I give to my partner things I normally wouldn't try

 

[16:19] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): I think it's a give and take

 

[16:19] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): and teh service can be performed in bits or large parts

 

[16:19] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think its an assumption that just because I (for example, not taking it personally) am not into being a Sadist, doesn't mean I'm not into the scene itself.   As earlier, I 'get off' knowing my partners are getting off, so in that aspect I am fully into the scene and the more they get off on it, the more I get off on it.

 

[16:19] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): Knowing Hestia, I know that she is fully immersed and yet as a Dominant, I would try to deliver the experience whe wants...not half-heartedly but fully to the best of my ability...I think that it is self-doubt that doesn't 'read right' to the subissive partner

 

[16:19] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Sorry Master Johan if you thought my comment was in regards to you.That was not my source of statement...it was myself :)

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So Johan it's less the flogging itself and more the "she's beautiful and she's so happy being given this and I love her happy" that feeds you in the scene

 

[16:20] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No not at all :) I didn't take it personally  <3

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): good point Lyrah!

 

[16:20] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): thank you Miss Vanni

 

[16:21] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Sir Shayne is correct. I am deeply immersive. I get INTO...the action and scene....if i do not feel my partner is equally so...it falls flat :)

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and that's a very valid feeling Hestia.  Some s-types would feel like they're imposing or dragooning their Dom into something for them, and that doesn't sit right for them.  and also as you said just the deep immersion can be broken.

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): wb Diana!

 

[16:22] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I thnk that where there is connection and communication it is going to work out

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia thanks for that!  And thanks all for your thoughts.

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Sydney we come to you!

 

[16:25] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): i did not know Sire was a service Dom when I met him ... I did not know it even after we were together.  I just remember our talks and negotiation and limits page all seemed to fit perfectly.  So we fit.  We are happy.  I give him what he needs and he gives me what I need.  If that fits a service Dom then fine.  #

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It's really just a term

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It can be taken or dismissed, the important thing is how each of us fit with our Other and how happy we are

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and as you and Johan are happy, *that* is what matters, regardless of what anyone cares to call it!

 

[16:27] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *nods happily*

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): :) ♥

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sydney!

 

[16:28] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I think taken the wrong way it sounds like topping from the bottom, but it is really communication

 

[16:29] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): agreed, Sir.

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Topping from the Bottom is where the sub really does try to make their Dominant into their "personal paddle and/or vibrator", dictating in a manipulative way how things go

 

[16:29] Diana Garsdale (Diana Garsdale): I'm feeling we're just re-writing the term "switch"

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): that can certainly be part of it Diana!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Saying "I'll do this with you as I care for you and it might not be my main cup of tea but it will make us grow together" is a whole different thing than being manipulated into something against one's desires.  That's *always* bad.

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I know we all agree on that!

 

[16:32] Diana Garsdale (Diana Garsdale): Of course you always find your compatibility in "negotiations"

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% Diana

 

[16:32] Diana Garsdale (Diana Garsdale): I'm sorry...lol...I'm not using the system lol

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): oh it's ok!

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan, I think you were typing something before you crashed

 

 

[16:32] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100%  thats why our Kinks/Limits are generally a 'spectrum' of 0-5  in our NCs (If you use those)  I was - I was in IM's confirming to Hestia that I hadn't taken her comment directed at me I was just using myself as the example :)

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok I have one more question for y'all

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Feel free to answer *minus a C* please!

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people get into a D/s connection and find themselves mostly compatible, except for maybe one thing.  Maybe one of them just isn't into uh...let's say....abrasive elbow worship that the other just loves!

 

[16:35] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So then you keep one elbow very abrasive, and use lotion on the other one *nods sagely*

 

[16:35] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): You can be poly and get your kicks with another partner

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is that a good spot to find a Service Top or Bottom to let the other get their kink going while they share everything else?  Or is that opening the relationship up too far?

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm curious how y'all feel about it

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):  grins at Johan

 

[16:36] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): I think points like "what is too far" and is very individual.  There is no "correct" answer for that.

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "it keeps the lotion off its elbow or it gets the hose again!"

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): right but I'm looking for personal feelings, not an absolute

 

[16:36] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I think that is true, the one who's need isn't met can look outside the relationship.  However, it still needs to be communicated to avoid issues

 

[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Only Sith Doms deal in absolutes.. and they are definitely NOT service oriented

 

[16:36] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): It depends on the two people and what they can agree on.

 

[16:37] Diana Garsdale (Diana Garsdale): You always play "down" to the limits of your partner. If this was a totally necessary thing for you going in and you gave the collar.... sorry too bad

 

[16:37] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I've been with people who request that I perform some service they simply can't perform and yet want to give it to their partner...I'm being vague because the actual service isn't as important as giving it to their partner

 

[16:37] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I guess that would be being a Service Top, too

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): nods

 

[16:37] Lyrah Lane (Lyrah Lane): hahaa

 

[16:38] Jenine (Illana Kuu): that is quite true Sir Johan!

 

[16:39] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): So what i am gathering, Service top or Bottom comes down to communication and negotiation

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Like that Mistress I had that I mentioned...if she had found a willing pony sub to play with, I'd have been just fine with that.  But she didn't and I did willingly go with it as in the end I wanted her happy.

 

[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Everything comes down to negotiation :)

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): She did find some weird person for other stuff I warned her against, dumped me for him, and then came crying to me about how messed up it all was lol

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I did try to be sympathetic...

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and yes Richard, negotiation and communication is paramount...not the channel btw...

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent!  Any other comments on this before we close?

 

[16:42] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): It is good to have a name for something I've been conscious of for a long time

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We are here to kick ideas around!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and of course not find absolutes

 

[16:43] Jenine (Illana Kuu): I love what we learn her Mistress Vanni it helps me learn more and find other ways to have fun!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If we try to solve world peas we're full of baloney!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I need Brianne back!

 

[16:43] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): ugh

 

[16:43] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  the Bri-in-training sighs sadly

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I still love you RB!

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥

 

[16:44] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  feels life can go on

 

[16:44] Jenine (Illana Kuu):  giggles

 

[16:44] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): have a good day!

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok then that's it for today.  Thanks for partcipating!  In two weeks we'll go over the BRAT and then thanks to Diana I remembered we also need to cover switching so that will be four weeks from today

 

[16:44] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): Thanks E/everyone.. excellent conversation!  and thanks for hosting Vanni!

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): then we'll go to different topics

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): have a lovely day everyone!

Babygirls and DaddyDoms -- August 23, 2026

 [15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok we need to start

 

[15:40]  (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Welcome all to today's discussion!

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual I have a bit of exposition to start us off

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): as I yap for a bit feel free to put in a C or Q into the coffee cup (just say "C" or "Q")

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): then we'll go to the queue

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Today however continue our series on BDSM with a talk about another misunderstood type of dynamic, the Babygirl and the DaddyDom.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Although perhaps not as polarizing as the Brat style, this also throws some people for a loop.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Brats by the way we'll discuss in September!

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): just in time to have a brat with onions and mustard -- read into that what you will!

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[15:44] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): moans

 

[15:44] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): lol *shakes my head*

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you, i'm here all week, try the fish!

 

[15:44] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): OH is food a topic now?? (wakes up)

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): no!

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): continuing!

 

[15:45] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): darn

 

[15:45] Jenine (Illana Kuu):   chuckles

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): A couple things about the BB/DD dynamic

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): First, this is NOT discussing ageplay.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Kids and ANY form of sex or BDSM play are banned in SL, for extremely good reason, so "Babygirl" is not to be taken as a 15 year old palling around with Roman Polanski or anything like that

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): (Dates myself with that remark)

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Also we are not talking about "family" or "incest" play or anything like that.

 

[15:46] RB (RBQuinn Resident): (enjoys the idea of dating with Vanni.....)

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If people wanna RP that on their time, whatever floats their boat!

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): (I'm an expensive date!)

 

[15:46] Connie (Constanse Levenque):   grins

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Also, we are not talking about "Littles" or subs that play at being kids.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We have quite a few Littles at my RL BDSM place.  They like to dress like kids, color, play with play-dough, roller skate and what not

 

[15:48] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): (running out of note space for what is excluded)

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): they even have a monthly meeting, SOAP, or "Society of Age Players" and no it doesn't mean THAT kind of age play

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I have talked to several of them about it, and they say they are recreating a childhood they never had

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So it's all good.  Not my kink, but their kink is just fine for them.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyway (winks at Salis) just what ARE we talking about?

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "Babygirl" is usually construed to mean a grown woman that in ways acts rather passive, looking for a man (her DaddyDom) to guide her and possibly spoil her and care for her in a very nurturing style D/s relationship.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So she might come across as a cutie teen, but she's not a kid or underage.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The dynamic seems to be the "Daddy" that spoils his "Princess" and cares and nurtures for her.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact, in a lot of the dynamics I have seen, he calls her "Princess" or "Buttercup" (yes, a Princess Bride reference there) or some other cute name like that.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And their dynamic has a very different turn than we'd see with the more usual D/s, or M/s kind of relationship.

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So, the questions before today's assembly are:  1) do you do the Babygirl/DaddyDom kind of dynamic?  (or perhaps the Babyboy/MommyDom, although I've not seen much of that), 2) If so, what works for you in it (or has it if done in the past) and 3) If you don't what questions or comments do you have about this dynamic?  Are you interested in it, or do you see it as something you'd rather not do?

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Remember we're always polite even when disagreeing :)

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): YKINMKBYKIOK (Your Kink Is Not My Kink But Your Kink Is Okay)

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So feel free to put in your C or Q, that's my exposition for today

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): apalia you break the ice!  When you are ready please!

 

[15:56] apalia (apalia Resident): To begin with the whole DD/BG naming gives me the creeps but that's just me....I understand that the ageplay thing is not what we are talking about.  I've never really gone for that kind of thing basically because it all sounds a bit exploitative??  Also (and I haven't really investigated for many years) Most BGs in my experience are bratty and just looking for a spanking...:)

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Some might see it as explotiation, but then again, vanillas think anything we do is a form of exploitation!

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so I think it's really a manner of perspective

 

[[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And I do agree apalia that there can be some crossover between the "Babygirl" and the "Brat"

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but that's not necessarily true in all cases

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): many Babygirls I've seen like dressing cute and carrying a plushie and being coy, which is not brat

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but certainly they can mix!

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for that apalia!

 

[15:59] apalia (apalia Resident): yw

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia we come to you please

 

[15:59] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Semantics count, in a text driven communication system.

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): well, as devil's advocate...lots of vanilla men (and women!) call their other "baby" and act like the big protector, but I don't think we'd look at them as candidates for Epstein Island... ;)

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That said, yes this dynamic can be polarizing and does often hit people's uncanny valley triggers

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "something is just *wrong* here...."

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But like you said, everyone has their kinks and as long as they're following the rules of SL and Xaara, they can do their "thang" however they like

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): good points thanks Hestia!

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Nyx we come to you please!

 

[16:05] Nүx Pяιsм (Nyx Prism): I Have been a Little For Years,  and Well I was with a Dominate for 7 years, and he was my daddy, so I wanted to first thank you all for giving us a lights on.. we are alot of the time miss understood and not taken serious in the ds, But I wanted to say that It takes alot of support and calming energy from the Dominate.. After That Experience I took such a break that i was scared to express myself as that. that I was nervous to tell my mistress so she told me that its not bad to seek a Daddy/Mommy  but she respect me and understood my need and said if i need to i will take the time and learn you.

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's cool!

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): One night my RL club got "taken over" by some littles lol

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): they were yelling and running around and roller skating all over...we had to push them into a large room to have their fun

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): only because they were a bit too loud and were interrupting some scenes

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): it was an intriguing night!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And yes the BB/DD dynamic is often misunderstood Nyx.  It's why we have these discussions!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good points thanks for that!

 

[16:08] Nүx Pяιsм (Nyx Prism):   giggles "we are known to do that.., Honestly i use my little side to just vegge out i guess i can say.. XD

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan we come to you please!

 

[16:09] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Fair warning - put your helmets on!

 

[16:09] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I originally had similar thoughts as apalia and Hestia, when I was just getting started in online BDSM and a growing fad was the DD/BG play (everything running in cycles) what you would normally see was brattish play disguised under DD/BG or to a point Age Play.  There is still some form of overlap of Age Play with DD/BG but like many of our kinks there can be overlaps. My initial 'ick' with it was that I had a 7yr old Stepdaughter at the time and so the Age Play thought was a definite turn off.

 

 I think what opened my mind more was that my style of Dominance as a Service Top and 'Caring Dom'  isn't very far off from what many would consider Daddy Dom.  I'm here for the care and support, protection and training of my subs. I'm here to help them be the best person and submissive they can be while looking out for their needs.  Sometimes those needs are relaxing playing games, watching videos, dressing cute and kawaii and avoiding the stressors even temporarily of modern adulthood, because lets all face it.

 

[16:09] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident):  The past 30 years life can be wonderful, but it can also be a shit show. So if they can escape a little bit into the whimsy of babygirl play, I support it.     I mean, I'm also a Disney Adult/Universal Adult soo...  #done

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): save vs wall of text

 

[16:09] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Save successful only 1/2 damage*

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hey I am one of those nutty Disney Resort passholders too!

 

[16:10] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and I might have a really cute Minnie top I wear

 

[16:11] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): If it were a crop top it would be a mini minnie top and I bet adorably cute too !

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): One thing you pointed out that is important, this is a spectrum, meaning some people are into the "light" more playful parts of the BB/DD dynamic where it might more overlap with "Brat" like apalia pointed out, and then to a moderate and finally very deep kind of "protector to very passive person" kind of thing

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): again, it's their dynamic, and I think most D/s relationships have *some* aspect of that, even if we don't call ourselves BB/DD types.

 

[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Indeed, I have a friend who is a Diaper Wearing Little -  full age regression (Non-sexual)    while its not my thing, it is theirs and thats ok too :)

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so a friend of mine in First Life had a biz where he was making bondage furnishings, he's a really good woodworker

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and he was approached by a guy who wanted a full, adult size crib for his infantilism kink

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): he thought it way off base but hey money was money!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): the guy paid for 1/3 of it as a down payment, my friend started it but the guy never paid the rest....so to this day my friend still has "crib" pieces in his garage lol

 

[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Convert a crib into a cage?

 

[16:16] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): lol

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):   grins

 

[16:16] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): nods at Johan

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks for those wise words, we always appreciate your comments!

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Lora please!  and anyone else please C or Q!

 

[16:17] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): In the move cat on a hot tin roof the matriarch of the family calls the patriarch 'Big Daddy'.  A movie back in the 50s with Paul Newman and Liz Taylor.  No one back then thought it was bad.  I was taught that these terms in the DD/bb dynamic a term of endearment.  In Latin cultures, women call their husband papi meaning Daddy and men call their women nena meaning girl.  Again a term of endearment.  Through time these terms have been used a lot and no one very thought about it back then.  Until recently.  Sometimes names are just names and nothing more to it.   done

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "Si, mi papi es muy caliente!"

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): *grins*

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I know enough Spanish to order food and be a bit kinky :P

 

[16:19] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "I love it when they call me Big Papa!   Put your hands in the air, like you're a true player"

 

[16:19] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): I just never thought of my grandmother a babygirl.  she was a spanish strong woman and cursed like a sailor.  laughs

 

[16:19] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): kinky with food?

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But that is very true, Lora, and it is a cultural thing

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Don't some Latin men also refer to their girlfriend/wife as "Mami?"

 

[16:20] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Yes also a term of endearment

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Si, claro!

 

[16:20] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): yes also a term of endearment and definitely not that she is his mother

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but of course that's not the dynamic we're discussing

 

[16:21] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): They also refer to other men/women as Papi/Mami just as a friendly term -non romantic :)

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I was raised Catholic, we called the priest "Father" but that wasn't anything other than the usual term of respect

 

[16:22] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): so again we all have false ideas of the term Daddy and what ever is used for females in the dynamic.  The dynamic itself and how each couple defines it is on them and none of my business.

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Lora, we don't have to like something, but just respect it enough to let folks do their thing as long as it's within the basic normative frame of SL and society

 

[16:23] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): nods to Vanni

 

[16:23] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): exactly. behind closed doors and all

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): One more:  vanillas flip out when they hear a sub call their male Dominant "Master"

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "Don't you know slavery is illegal?"

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "That's NOT what we mean here, babe.  Chill."

 

[16:24] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): I just look at them and smile and go about my business

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:25] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): context is important when terms like Daddy are used.

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Lora!

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Tiana

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): When ready please!

 

[16:25] Tiana Rore Miracle (RoreMiracle Resident): are your selling you self to a slave suction house so you must be a whore

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): You mean that as how that's perceived by vanillas of course!

 

[16:26] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Hah jokes on them, we'd do it for free!  The money just weeds out the scrubs

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hey pal, $10 is $10...

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:26] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier):   snickers at Sir Johan

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):   screams as a wave of $10 bills are tossed at me...

 

[16:27] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): laughs

 

[16:27] Tiana Rore Miracle (RoreMiracle Resident): i had a daddy Dom once, he wanted me to dress like a school girl and a teen and for some reason it creeped me out not this is before i came here and had some lovely whorshps, yes some people out isl are pero and horrble but this is why place like xaraa are here#

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Tiana, did you feel like he was pushing something "wrong" on you, or he just liked the schoolgirl look?

 

[09:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): (I have dressed as a kinky schoolgirl many times here btw ;) )

 

[09:29] Tiana Rore Miracle (roremiracle): yes i don't like dressing like a child or school girl

 

[09:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): right so that was not your thing and you didn't have to do that

 

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): remember we cherish the big C word here...not that one...CONSENT

 

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli) knows my audience *giggles*

 

[09:30] Johan Dark (wjohanw): SOoo many C words :)

 

[09:30] Tiana Rore Miracle (roremiracle): that what i am lean;t here

 

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): Tiana we welcome you to Xaara and I'm glad you're connecting to the positive atmosphere we try to create

 

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): And thanks for that comment!

 

[09:31] Tiana Rore Miracle (roremiracle): i am bring a freind next time

 

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): great!

 

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): Jenine we come to you please

 

[09:31] Jenine (illana.kuu): its no different than my relationship with my Miss, the society I live in flips its top hearing such terms used let alone Master... and my Miss has called me her Babygirl as a term of endearment more than a few times.  But Miss Robbi is Very protective!

 

[09:32] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): Good points Jenine!

 

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): as long as it promotes happiness it's  good, but as Tiana pointed out, if it's NOT doing that, time to renegotiate or leave if the other won't listen

 

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): so I love that you and your Miss are happy and fit well, Jenine!

 

[09:34] Jenine (illana.kuu): I strongly agree there, and we have an amazing connection!

 

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): good👍

 

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (vanessa.cannoli): We come to Taryn please!

 

[09:34] taryn (taryn.topaz): I just wanted to say coming from a RL situation where her bio Dad was never loving, caring, supportive or protective while at the same time giving strict rules and extreme punishment for my own "crimes" and my little brother's "crimes" (because I apparently was suppose to teach him better). I understand the attraction to experience a loving father/daughter dynamic. I love when a D shows interest in my creative projects, when he protects me, when he spoils me and respect him when he punishes me when I need it cause I know he is doing it out of love and care for me. I am a fan of pet names and nick names. However, I have to have balance. I need him to know even though I enjoy the cute outfits, the plushies when I'm feeling overwhelmed or emotional, that I'm still a woman who can care for her family, home, finances and whatever else needs to be done. I'm not a child, I don't enjoy being made to feel inferior or weak. I know I'm a complicated soul and not everyone's cup of tea. I wanted to thank you for having  this discussion because this dynamic fascinates me as well as gives me the "ick" so I'm excited to learn more about this topic while I learn more about myself.

I once was seeing a Daddy Dom, we were just getting to know each other. He asked me to wear a diaper, I logged immediately and then when I came back I deleted and blocked him. *laughs*#

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Well I guess that all "Depends" on the person!

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): sorry had to say it

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): :P

 

[16:36] taryn (Taryn Topaz):   smiles "I was so nervous to share"

 

[16:36] taryn (Taryn Topaz): thank you A/all

 

[16:36] RB (RBQuinn Resident): *groans at Vanni's pun*

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): taryn that was spot on!

 

[16:36] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Well-said, Taryn!

 

[16:36] Jenine (Illana Kuu): I had to punt someone once.. I didn't even log... I just kick him so hard that I think he felt it in RL... taryn

 

[16:37] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): wonder if it is the same one i left with his head still spinning.

  

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and again I think it shows the spectrum here, some dynamics can have some of the BB/DD minus the more overt stereotypes we have.  There's nothing wrong with an s-type wanting a strong person to hold and depend on

 

[16:37] Jenine (Illana Kuu): I died laughing especially after I filled my Miss in...

 

[16:38] taryn (Taryn Topaz): <<<< not afraid to use the red X or the block button

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): yeah one time at a club (not Xaara) this guy wanted me to go home with him...and I was in the mood so I went...

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): first thing he said was "call me Daddy"

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): then he got into his wanting to "breed" his "little girl"

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I was out super fast

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not gonna be the focus of some dood's incest fantasy

 

[16:39] Jenine (Illana Kuu): was his lower parts intact Miss Vanni?

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol we never got to seeing it LOL

 

[16:39] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): LOL

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): again...if people want to have that fantasy, fine...but make it *consensual* by asking if I'd WANT to do it

 

[16:40] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^^^^^^

 

[16:40] taryn (Taryn Topaz): right!!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): because the answer would have been NO at the get-go

 

[16:40] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): nods

 

[16:40] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I wasted gas driving over here!!!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:40] Jenine (Illana Kuu):   laughs to the point of tears

 

[16:40] taryn (Taryn Topaz): I'm gonna quote daks now "I did not consent to that!" *giggles*

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): isn't that a Hall and Oates song "I did not consent to that..nooo...no can do!"

 

[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Sounds like another parody we need to write Vanni

 

[16:41] taryn (Taryn Topaz): probably *giggles*

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Taryn thanks so much for that!

 

[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): YOu've got my Collar now you want my soul?

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL Johan

 

[16:41] taryn (Taryn Topaz): *:-:*'``'*My Pleasure*:-:*'``'*

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That was spot on and I'm glad you shared it!

 

[16:41] taryn (Taryn Topaz):   winks at Pilar

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): we go to Dion please!

 

[16:42] Dion Griffin (adrohi Resident): There was a mention of the word breed and it reminded me of Muffins

 

[16:42] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): haz to know how breeding and muffins connect...

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): SubMcMuffin?

 

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): (Is scared and looking at his blueberries in a new light(

 

[16:42] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): facepalms.. MISS VANNI..that was horrible

 

[16:42] Dion Griffin (adrohi Resident): I think it is manipulative behavior as far as baby girl term is used by passive women

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:43] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Fast food Sub :) Subway ?  McMuffin ?  LOL

 

[16:43] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): How do you mean Sir Dion?

 

[16:43] Dion Griffin (adrohi Resident): Muffins is a game in sl about hucows and bulls

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): didn't know that!

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it's possible that anyone can attempt to manipulate their other

 

[16:44] taryn (Taryn Topaz):   nods in agreement

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's reasonable to believe that some BBs do act that way to get things

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): just like some DDs do the same

 

[16:45] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): the infamous babygirl brat princess syndrome!!!

 

[16:45] Dion Griffin (adrohi Resident): it's not right to be silent and exert influence the wrong way

 

[16:45] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): agrees

 

[16:45] taryn (Taryn Topaz): hey! not all princesses are brats :P

 

[16:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^... It doesn't have to be a DD/bg dynamic for manipulation to occur,   though hopefully there will be informed consent in any dynamic regarding what is acceptable between the two (or more) parties.  FINDOM happens regularly as well.

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed Taryn!

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's another kind of dynamic that can produce real exploitation

 

[16:46] taryn (Taryn Topaz):   smiles and adjusts her crown

 

[16:46] Lora Nieuport (LoraSaenz1 Corvinus): well said Sir Johan

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): but at the same time some findom, done ethically, can be acceptable....like a sub who can't control their finances so an ethical Dominant "OKs" purchases and helps them budget

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): your point is well taken, Dion!  Thanks!

  

[16:47] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):   nods in agreement with Johan an Vanni

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok I have one question to finish the discussion

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): think of it as your "happy ending..." ;)

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We see very few if any "BabyBoy/MommyDom" kind of dynamics, or at least them being called that way.  Do you think that would be seen as more problematic and maybe even pathological by people both out of and in the scene?  Just answer please, no C.

 

[16:49] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Yes

 

[16:49] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): I can head that way - yes

 

[16:49] Jenine (Illana Kuu): yes

 

[16:50] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): I think so.  I would view both in the same lihgt personally

 

[16:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think its along how we also don't see nearly as many male submissives either?  Maybe its a closeted thing out of fear of rejection/assumption?

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and why do you think it might be seen more problematic?

 

[16:50] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): because society is still sexist

 

[16:50] taryn (Taryn Topaz):   agrees with Hestia

 

[16:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^  That.. Toxic Masculinity

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): male subs are often regarded as "unmanly" by many, although I think Xaara has come a long way in rejecting that misguided view

 

[16:51] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Agreed

 

[16:51] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): agreed Miss Vanni

 

[16:52] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I certainly hope we have :) I know we try both in regards to that, and as well as promoting our Non-Binary members as well as Female Dominants as well :)

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): yes!

 

[16:52] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Submissive has never meant Weak - inferior - in any context.  There are very strong successful Male and Female Submissives --   and they can be a challenge to be their Dominant

 

[16:52] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Indeed Lngo

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I think though that the idea of a male sub saying "Mommy" to his Mistress might really hit the uncanny valley in people and seem highly pathological

 

[16:53] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): Having been approached by male subs, I think there are subtle differences between male and female subs rather than the obvious.  And I think Hestia's comment probably explains a good bit of it

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): like "is this infantilism?"

 

[16:53] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): could not be ME Master Lngo.....because i am just a sweet innocent little old grey haired lady!!! )fluttering eyelashes(

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):   giggles

 

[16:53] taryn (Taryn Topaz): uh oh i word!!!

 

[16:53] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): chuckles

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "innocent...innocent of WHAT?"  -- Little Bill Daggett in "Unforgiven"

 

[16:54] Jenine (Illana Kuu): Innocent?

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The last time I went to confession I got run out with pitchforks so I ain't very "innocent"

 

[16:54] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm not innocent, but I've never been proven Guilty

 

[16:55] RB (RBQuinn Resident):   wishes he had a rimshot ....

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:55] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ty

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway I wanted to ask that question as we rarely see the BabyBoy/MommyDom

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): although i have hung around in SL femdoms and I can attest some relationships do go into it even if it's not *called* BB/MD

 

[16:56] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident):   nods

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): any final thoughts?

 

[16:57] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): I plead the fifth, but will beg for a half gallon!

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you all for this great discussion!

 

[16:57] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Great discussion Vanni - always informative - and engaging - and amazing !  I am glad to be back to the Klatch after a long reprise.

 

[16:57] Dion Griffin (adrohi Resident): thanks

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): we'll be back here in two weeks with "Service Tops and Bottoms"

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and Johan spins next week at the Pier!  don't miss it!

 

[16:58] Dion Griffin (adrohi Resident): whats that?

 

[16:58] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): Excellent conversation and really appreciate everyone's perspective!

S is for Submission! -- August 9, 2026

 [15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go ahead and start up

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received; however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual I have some exposition to start us off

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, as I ramble on a bit (not the Led Zep song), feel free to put in Cs and Qs and then we'll get to the queue

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we continue our walk through the BDSM acronym by focusing on the "s" in D/s

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After today, we have a few more topics to go through: subs vs slaves, the DaddyDom/babygirl dynamic...The Brat! And then switching.

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (not brats like you eat...well usually)

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[15:43] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): wiggles brows

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a couple of weeks ago we covered the Dominant aspect, today we go into submission.

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First, I'd like to point out that there is both overlap and differentiation between Tops/Bottoms and Dominants/subs or slaves, but also important differences.

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): At my First Life club, I'd say 75-80% of the people are Tops and Bottoms. We get together, do perverse, kinky things, and then go home. The Power Exchange is for the hour or so that's given over to that interaction.

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): These things naturally involve a lot of prayer....subs screaming "OH GOD" over and over.....

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very pious

[15:45] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ha!

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also, the exchange is very specific -- we will do this and that but not THAT.

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So Top/Bottom is based on scene activity, which we of course do here in SL and Xaara

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): D/s on the other hand is based on some aspect of growing relationship.

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The power exchange is stronger but usually less directly formalized as the connection grows.  It's like a maturing vanilla relationship, with more sharply defined bounderies.

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The initial negotiations tend to melt into a bigger picture of shared kinks, desires and emotions.

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So we come to the submissive, the person who wants to give themselves over to the direction of the Dominant, serve their needs and be whatever it is the Dom/me wants and they come up with together.

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Just as Domination is something more than "topping," then Submission is something more than "bottoming." The question is, what is it?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Why do submissives get such a thrill (or "joie de vivre") from being truly submissive to a Dominant person?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And, what is it that gets the Dom/me drawn to the sub type? What do they see, what's the click there?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Remember, vanillas don't get what we do, they think "Dominants are monsters, and subs are doormat types, and it's all abuse" (well, some vanillas, to be fair)

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But we know better, so what's the "zing" of submission? Why do subs relish it and Dominants like it so much and get their kicks watching subs squirm?

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (No, please don't. do that. No, really. Stop.) </Willy Wonka Voice>

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok that's my exposition, so when you have a comment or question jump in the queue!

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia when you are ready please!

[15:51] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Why do they relish it? because power is a very very strong aphrodisiac, for the one giveing the power and for the one receiving the power. #

[15:51] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): well put

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok so (and only playing devil's advocate here)...it's really about the thrill of power?

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if I top a person at the club for an hour or so I get lots of power...then we go home.  Maybe for some that's enough of a thrill of power?

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (again playing devil's advocate here!)

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll see what people come up with!  Thanks, Hestia, for starting us off!

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Salis, please!

[15:54] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): Does the question of why submissives engage in TPE, really have just one general answer or many different reasons?  I believe it is for many reasons that vary from person to person.#

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh no, I'm a complete reductionist, there can be only one answer and one cause! :P </sarcasm>

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (of course, as a sociologist, I know that attributing one cause to anything humans do is foolish)

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But while I agree...what are those things?  Hestia said it's a rush of power on both sides.  What else is it?

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let me ask a follow-up:

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Salis, would you be interested in sharing what gets you going about submission from the angle of being a Dom?  (if not we will move on)

[15:59] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): yes.  I enjoy the responsiblity of finding out what the submissive really wants and needs.  Help define the limits and where I can push the submissive past soft limits that can enhance our relationship.  It is also an ego boost to exercise the power in a positive way.  It is also very difficult to Dominate with no submissive.

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!  I tried ordering bacteria around, no dice.

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): all that sounds yummy too!

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok so power as intoxication, pushing a bit, positive use of power, wants and needs, good good

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Salis!

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee please!

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I hope a few others have thoughts as this is what we do here!

[16:02] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): As someone on both sides of the slash. I think it is called power exchange for a reason and that drives the other elements, emotional, sexual Of course attraction and charisma play a role especially initializing. In a D/s relationship it gets deeper emotionally or tends to fade out. Salis is right about responsibility #

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes power is the driving element for sure

[16:03] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am submissive as well

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But if it doesn't get deeper on some emotional level it's Top/Bottom activity..which is fine!

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Many people are happy to get a scene going and then head home and that's their dance in BDSM.

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact...and this might be controversial...

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think *more* people in SL are Top/Bottom than they think.

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lots of folks connect D/s with kinky sex

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And kinky sex is great...or so I hear! *cough*

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But finding a person to tie up and have kinky sex with is a pretty limited way to look at D/s

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): IMO anyway

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee thanks for those thoughts.

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok before we move on I was sent a request to present someone's thoughts anonymously

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So let me share this; we can chat about it and then move back to Hestia

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): " It is not all about power.  I feel more centered, more at ease, calm and present.  I am happy to provide and serve.  Being submissive, to me, is not a choice.  I also did not choose for my sexual fantasies to include being restrained, punished, or controlled.  You are submissive whether or not you have Dom or Master.  You are submissive even if your D/s is not 24-7.  You are submissive even if you are alone with your thoughts.  You are submissive whether or not you fight it, feel good about it, or unhappy about it.  If you are submissive, you just are.  That does not mean I am a doormat or can not stand up for myself and be strong.  That does not mean I am easy or my submission is for every Dominate out there. I choose who I submit to, its a gift I give to my Dominate.  Cherished Protected."

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love that!!

[16:08] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): hear hear!

[16:09] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  smiles and applauds

[16:09] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): joins RB

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think this gets to an essential question -- is being a Dominant or a submissive something we *do*, something we *are*, or both?  The person who wrote that says it's what we *are*.  Do y'all agree?  Even if not "practicing," are we still those things (or both perhaps if one switches?)

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Feel free to share your thoughts on that, no C

[16:10] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): I agree it is who we are, both D and s

[16:10] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): and those on both sides

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And vanillas are really vanilla!  (Although I read the #1 ice cream in the USA is strawberry!)

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

[16:11] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am very S with my Master and a few other otherwiae I am Dom and I am primarily DOm in RL as well

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok thanks Salis and Cee!

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thanks for those thoughts, oh Anonymous!  *giggles*

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well thought out!

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Hestia please

[16:13] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): what attracts us, or puts us off. example..from my personal POV. This may not be the POV of other submissives.#

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well I'd say the latter guy is driven by what I call "SL Hyperspeed" -- everything is sped up here, there are no consequences for the most part if we say things (unless they break TOS), so why waste time with flowery words, just get right to the point and if she doesn't respond, find the next one to attempt to victimize.

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not that I'm excusing such inane garbage mind you

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's just how such people think

[16:15] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): yes indeed! :)

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whereas the first one was seductive in his power

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't even respond to such BS -- insta-mute

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so that was a great example of real Dominance vs crap, Hestia

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jenine, we come to you, please!

[16:17] Jenine (Illana Kuu): For me being more new to true D/s I have learned that from the submissive perspective. Having a Dominant Miss to help guide me in becoming a better person. 

As a submissive I get a stronger sense of being happy and willing to give more as the connection builds between the D/s relationship.

I also thrive better having a person who is strong to push me past my comfort points even when I don't like it.  But that happens as trust becomes stronger.

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well, I think you mean "might not like but I give consent"

[16:18] Jenine (Illana Kuu): yes exactly

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with Jenine that as the relationship deepens so does the trust and so the willing giving over of power

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): NO human relationship is static

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (which is why I disagree with what some say about slaves -- "slaves negotiate once and never again.")

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Slaves might have to ask... to plead...for something, but in the end if they're denied growth and change, they're seen as a doll, and humans ain't dolls

[16:22] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): the term "willful slave" has a meaning for that reason.

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): </rant over>

[16:22] Jenine (Illana Kuu): I think to clarify on what I said, is that the Consent is a critical part between me and My Miss, but having Her controlling me in a willing situation is helping to redefine my self esteem. #

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, good point Jenine!  Thank you!

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and Cee we come back to you

{16:23] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): My past Master and I had a well rounded scenario, we had Date nights, Kink nights, Sex nights and Cuddle Talking nights. My current relationship is similar without as much structure. This is referring to what we do in D/s and to a degree th kinky side too#

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point and each of those relationships was based on structure that perhaps was needed or wanted at that time

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): more or less

[16:25] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes and negotiated

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is why we can't look at how others do their D/s and say "ur doing it wrng"

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If it's right for you, what others say is noise (unless it's truly abusive)

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): after we finish the BDSM acronym we'll do that discussion again -- "dealing with perceived abuse"

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but we have a few more subs to go discuss

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Cee!

[16:27] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yvw

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan please repeat what you said earlier in full :)

[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Again my apologies.. one of these days I'll edit in a NC first then copy/paste.   RE: Hestia's fountain example -Just as an aside, both can be considered Dominance (I loathe the terms 'real/fake' on both sides of the coin.) -  Some People ARE into that type of play both Top and Bottom.  I'm not and would never behave so crudely. but there ARE those who do enjoy it on both sides of the /    the whole "your kink isn't mine, and thats ok'  but its ALSO 100% ok to be turned off by that behavior as well and to tell them you do not consent to receiving that.. #

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right -- and the essential point was there at the end Johan, *CONSENT*

[16:28] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): This is what block buttons are for :D

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure, some people get off on nasty, humiliating kinds of scenarios...but get consent first!

[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100% I've even gone so far as to tell Sydney she's welcome to block anyone at any time, and if she has to tell them "My Master said so" thats ok  ;)

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥✪`*•.✰ YAYY ✰.•*´✪♥

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also there are places for that kind of quick "let me IM you and we'll proceed to the laundry room and f**k" kind of things

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whole sims devoted to capture RP etc

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so they can go there

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): not at our Fountain where our lovely Angels and Seraphim are posing for the community -- but they don't get that

[16:31] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): snickers at the 4 times he was horsenapped. 3 being on this sim.

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yeah but you consent ;)

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan those were fab points thanks!

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So here's a question that came to mind

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if a bottom/sub is walking around with an open collar, is that "game on" for whoever finds it, or should they ask first?  Feel free to answer

[16:32] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): ASK

[16:33] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Ask AFTER?

[16:33] apalia (apalia Resident): no

[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Does the sub have "feel free to grab me if you see me walking around?" In their profile?

[16:33] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): ASK before it is no different than if you had no collar to that extent

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no before Wombi

[16:33] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): depends on the sim they are at....if clearly marked as RLV Trap and sub sets collar to that setting.  Then fair game

[16:33] Jenine (Illana Kuu): absolutely Not, without consent

[16:33] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): consent required to use the collar

[16:34] apalia (apalia Resident): although there are some 'capture' sims which invite that but should have a big warning sign

[16:34] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): yes with clear warning signs

[16:34] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): consent depends on the Sim. Walk around a Gorean Sim with an open collar..YOU WILL BE grabbed.

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and one should know that about Gor, Hestia

[16:35] Jenine (Illana Kuu): that is absolutely correct Hestia, been there...

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): usually Gor sims have clear rules at the landing

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "if you leave here you agree to our rules"

[16:35] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Stupid book series.

[16:35] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Which it SHOULD be roleplayed out as well not just typing /1

[16:35] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I was told half a dozen times not to come here as it was a gor sim

[16:35] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): The consent can be given by the submissive who sets their collar that way.

[16:36] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): As well as their Master may have rules about that 'open collar'

[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So to greater answer the question is "It depends"    On the situation, has prior consent been given (rules of the sim, permission clearly stated in profile, etc. )    otherwise ANY action should require discussion and explicit consent.

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% agreed Johan

[16:36] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): nods to Johan

[16:37] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I might teach the "Consent/Limits/Collar" classes now and then for the M/M class :)

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and yes, if a bottom/sub has a Dominant, they better be sure they are following their Dom/mes rules about having a collar open to the public

[16:38] Salis Reis (SalihReis Resident): and having rules from the dominant about checking sim rules and conditions being understood

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): everything just needs to be clear

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): maybe one's Dominant can't get on much so they allow the sub a lot of slack in what they do...that doesn't totally cede responsibility in said sub

{16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And are there any other comments or points to be made about submission?

[16:41] apalia (apalia Resident): I came late to this and picked up some interesting points I will take away.  Thank you

[16:42] Soʀʀow Haʀᴛ (NyxDarkbloom Resident): Great discussion Vanessa thank you

[16:42] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Not for me.

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Another great discussion Vanni and everyone !

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you all for being here!\