[08:10] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok on that note, literally, let's go ahead and start up
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open. Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.
[08:13] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This week we continue our discussion of the BDSM acronym with a continuation of M for "Masochism"
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Last week we talked about how pain figures into the S/M part of the lifestyle, this week we turn to another form of Masochism, humiliation
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We have the amazing Dijana with us today, who as you know created a fab workshop on humiliation last year as part of her Seraph path. I just helped a bit with it.
[08:14] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): grins
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): so I'm sure she will have something to add to this discussion :)
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): ok a bit of exposition on this
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Humiliation play is a puzzling and misunderstood part of our lifestyle
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): When we think of "humiliation" we usually think of a bottom or sub being trampled on, their Dom/me or Top telling them they are worthless shit, doing Golden or Roman Showers on them.
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Just because that's a typical Saturday night for me doesn't make me strange, ok?
[08:17] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): ♫ rimshot ♫
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But in all honesty, more of us do very subtle forms of humiliation than we think, and people that enjoy this kind of kink are not "strange", they have their kink and are enjoying it with people who share it. It's all good and yummy!
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So quickly, three kinds of humiliation play. Those of you that have been here before or have heard the Humiliation workshop have heard these. I hope it will provoke discussion
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The first is Status Humiliation.
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This is some kind of activity where the Bottom/Sub is moved down the hierarchy to be sure they, and everyone around knows, that the target is under the authority and rule of the Top/Dominant
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): A lot of us do this
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): For example
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Subbies in the room
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): how many of you like to be leashed? Raise your hand
[08:20] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): 1
[08:20] Ɛɱɱą Ɛŋƈɧąŋէɱεŋէ (emma.enchantment): raises hand
[08:20] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): raises hand
[08:20] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): raises hand
[08:20] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria) raises her hand
[08:20] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone) Raises mine with a big smile ^^
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) raises my hand
[08:20] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) raises hand
[08:20] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (consuela.caldwell): raises hand
[08:20] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence) puts her hand up quickly
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) giggles
[08:20] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe) raises my hand
[08:20] Serreia (pixann): raises hand
[08:20] Ballard (ballard.svenska) takes notes of the names
[08:20] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) raises hand!
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Dominants, how many of You enjoy leashing Your sub/slave?
[08:21] Ballard (ballard.svenska): Oh yes, very much
[08:21] Sher (sharesher1774): yes
[08:21] Sher (sharesher1774): yes
[08:21] Lngo Delvalle: raises hand
[08:21] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants): Better raise mine
[08:21] Oly Oller: raises his hand with a grin
[08:21] Arella McGregor (arella4): Raising My hand
[08:21] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): raises my hand
[08:21] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι (kirin.serevi): raises my hand
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok, so the majority of us in this room like either being treated as an animal, or enjoy treating our sub/slave as an animal on a leash.
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): BUT
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We don't think of it that way
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It doesn't damage self worth
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): In fact, it enhances it, doesn't it
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Being on a leash makes the sub feel owned, protected, and *belonging* to someone
[08:22] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): nods
[08:22] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) nodded.."indeed"
[08:23] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): very much so
[08:23] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) nods lots
[08:23] Ɛɱɱą Ɛŋƈɧąŋէɱεŋէ (emma.enchantment): nods
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): While having a person on a leash gives the Dominant the feel of ownership and control
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The point I am making here is that Status Humiliation doesn't do anything to degrade a person.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It's a willing desire to "be put in ones place"
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So things like "walk three steps behind me" or "kneel there in Tower and do not speak until spoken to" are forms of this.
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It's the power exchange in action
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Which we'll get into more when we get to D/s after Easter
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The second kind of humiliation is Physical Humiliation
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This is when the bottom/sub is turned into some form of object or perhaps an animal
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So a chair, a couch, a lamp
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I was at a pre-covid private BDSM gathering and one Dom had set his girl up as a lamp in the corner for the evneing
[08:26] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): a sushi table
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): she was wearing an Ikea lampshade and was holding a low wattage lit bulb in her hands
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That's all she did all night, she was given breaks to go to the bathroom, drink, eat and stretch, and then back in the corner as the lamp
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): And she was tickled pink
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Petplay also comes in here
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) looks at Brianne and winks, thinking about the puppy running about.
[08:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): :)
[08:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): arf
[08:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) scratches fleas
[08:28] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Heeee!!! Cute!
[08:28] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Third kind of humiliation is where it gets really dicey: emotional humiliation
[08:28] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This is where the Top/Dominant does use some kind of name calling, or humiliating acts, that are *****NEGOTIATED***** with the sub
[08:28] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Note the HUGE emphasis on NEGOTIATED.
[08:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Anything done here not negotiated is abuse, pure and simple.
[08:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): For example, in a scene where I am the bottom, I'm quite happy to be called "Bitch" "whore" or have certain degrading things done.
[08:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): IN THE SCENE after we TALK about it.
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Outside of that you get to see what a mad Sicilian woman is like.
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It ain't pretty.
[08:30] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): grins
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): with negotiation, this is fine
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Everyone has their kink and how they get off
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Done minus careful negotiation, it's as dangerous as taking a paddle and just wailing on a person with it minus negotiation.
[08:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): OK, so with all this said, the questions of the day are : 1) do Y/you enjoy Humiliation from either side? if so 2) what types and 3) Are there things about this that seem puzzling to Y/you?
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): ok we already have a bunch of piping hot comments, whoo hoo!
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Master Ballard, thank You for Your patience. You are first!
[08:33] Ballard (ballard.svenska): As Vanni says humiliation comes in many forms, ranging from the outright and extreme, to a more subtle level. Myself I like to use pet names, some of which may seem crude. I have called Peaches 'sugar tits". I never really think of it as humiliation, but it is. It also is when I call Rouge 'slut' (she is). So these are things I do without intending to engage in any type of 'play', it simply is my way. I wonder how many of us use undercurrents like that as a form of domination.
#
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Yes!
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): As I said, Master, this is more common in our lifestyle than we think, but sometimes it is very subtle and so not even really thought of as a humiliating act.
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Also I think place matters. Peaches may find You calling her that in private provokes a different reaction than right here in public. I'd let her answer that of course.
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Rouge, well *grins at her*
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So yes, very good first comment, thank You Master!
[08:35] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) blinks " im a nun I keep telling ya!"
[08:36] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I'll have nun of that young lady!
[08:36] Ballard (ballard.svenska): ♫ rimshot ♫
[08:36] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) smirks
[08:36] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to Ema up on the bookcase!
[08:36] Ema (ema1983): i know it is back a little .. but i can not type that fast lol and i was a good girl ... grinz and waited ....... so ......
[08:36] Ema (ema1983): i think humiliation by nature has to be something you do NOt enjoy you might enjoy the effect of being pushed to do some thing you are uncomfortable with in this case some thing to be ashamed of a little or a lot but if you enjoy the act ... being leashed it is not in my opinion humiliation it is just some thing you like a kink if you will #
[08:37] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): right, I agree Ema, and it goes back to place matters.
[08:37] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (consuela.caldwell): context
[08:37] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Here in Xaara, where leashes are very common, it is more the connection
[08:37] Ema (ema1983): mm yes i agree with that too :)
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But take a person into a vanilla spot on a leash, with all eyes on the leasher and leashee, it turns into a different kind of scene
[08:38] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): completely
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I was at a kinky bar party many years ago, and a friend of mine brought his girl in on a leash. This was a kinky group but a vanilla place, they knew us so it was all cool
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But she comes in leashed, sits next to my friend and says nothing.
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We order and she orders nothing
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We asked "Isn't she hungry?" My friend says "No, she ate out of her dish earlier"
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): She turned bright red but looked like she was about to orgasm.
[08:40] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So THAT leashing and act was highly humilating, and it was done for a different reason than we do here.
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Good point Ema, thank you!
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That was spot on
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Peaches we go to you please
[08:41] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) smiled at Vanni, a sassy sparkle in her eyes. "Thank you Vanni. It was not until I was on my Seraph path that I realized that, in part, I too love humiliation play, with limitations, of course.
I was the one who rejected the notion, simply due to the word, Humiliation. Growing up a red head, and the 6th of 7 children, I endured a LOT of the wrong kind of emotional humiliation, causing me to loath myself. That, combined with the childhood sexual abuse I endured, gave me a self esteem that was in the crapper.
Then, during my path, I became educated to the fact that there are many forms of humiliation that I love. It never occurred to me that wearing a collar and a leash or being called SugarTits by my Master or any such term by anyone (I consider those to be terms of endearment), was humiliation play..and I love it! I love being objectified! I love being dominated! I love being an exhibitionist! So..bring it on! Please!
And, by the way, Vanni, if Master leashed me or called me SugarTits in public i
[08:41] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): would burn red as i blushed but I would love it!#
[08:42] Ballard (ballard.svenska): Yes, I do not hold back
[08:42] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Well look here, Sugar Tits...
[08:43] Serreia (pixann): lol
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): :P
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I get exactly what you're saying, Peaches
[08:43] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) squirmed on her heels, moisture collecting
[08:43] Lngo Delvalle: writes down new name :)
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Sometimes it takes that epiphany to realize that what we like is actually a mild form of humiliation play, but the stigma on the word (and rightly so, in its non-consensual form) makes us reject the idea.
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) looks at Dijana, "That's a pretty accurate statement, would you say, Di?"
[08:44] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): very much so Vanni!
[08:45] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So you're spot on, Splenda Boobies (need to mix it up here)
[08:45] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): And I'm happy you've found your happy place *grins*
[08:45] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) stood, shaking her boobs wilkdly
[08:46] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok, now that we have Stevia Bazongas' comment done....we move to Callie please
[08:46] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): Thank you Vanni. My question is definition based. What do you believe the difference is between humiliation and degradation? They seemed to be used interchangeably during this morning's exposition, but there is a difference between them in my opinion. After some Googling, I found that, as verbs, the difference between degrade and humiliate is that degrade is to lower in value or social position while humiliate is to injure a person's dignity and self-respect. While discussing this with my Master, I said that I felt that humiliation has a 'public' component to it as well. What are the groups thoughts on this? Do you differentiate? If so, is one a limit for you while the other is not? Why or why not? #
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Just to point out, in my experience, while those are certainly correct dictionary definitions, the *usage* of the words seems to be different in the community. Again, from my experience. Humiliation is more poking at a person while degrading them is attacking some aspect of their self-worth, which CAN be ok in a negotiated, limited context, but is very dangerous to do beyond that.
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Again, this is how I've seen these terms used in my experience. Your mileage may vary of course.
[08:48] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): For me, the humiliation is temporary, the degradation irreversible!
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Anyone else want to answer her question, please do so. No C required
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That's largely how I see it as well, especially non-consensual
[08:49] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): I think it come to how you feel about yourself. Humiliate I feel does not hurt ones self worth or self confidence... Degrading does
[08:49] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): and that is also why Humiliation can be tricky.. You may think you are just making a small boob joke but if that is something that has been a source of insecurity in the past you may mean to humiliation and end up degrading
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I'm not outing Rachel here, shes's very open about this...she enjoys words which I will not repeat here, used in a scene, that would be highly degrading OUTSIDE of that scene.
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): She would have right to slap me across the face if I used them outside of that context.
[08:52] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But in that context, tell 'em how you feel Rachel...
[08:53] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Well, for me if there's any distinction to be made between Humiliation and Degradation, it would be consent
[08:53] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Right!
[08:54] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): agreed Rachel
[08:54] Arrades Knight (arrades): name calling in a public setting would be humiliatin, but when done by someone who aint my Dom would be degrading, like Slut, slave or Miss in my case
[08:54] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Does that all help Callie?
[08:54] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) smiles and nods. "Yes. It does. Thank you all."
[08:54] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It's an ongoing puzzle :)
[08:54] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Good!
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Thank you for that, we have another question from Brianne please
[08:55] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): Thank moo, I mean 'you'.
[08:55] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): For me personally, I'm not excited by emotional humiliation beyond being called 'slut' or 'whore' or 'pet' or 'doll'. (I got enough verbal abuse growing up, thank you very much) What I do love is being an art object, a pony, a puppy, a cow, furniture, or just a bound girl on display. And, of course, being leashed is always just as thrilling as ever. I think I'm most excited by objectification, physical humiliation, done in a very "matter of fact" way. This sort of humiliation, done like "of course Brianne is my property, it could be no other way", gets to me deeply. It does give me a sense of belonging, yes, but so many other feelings that are hard to express too. Perhaps it's the 'inevitability' factor, I don't know I wonder how many other subs experience it this way? Do you prefer overt or subtle humiliation?
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Feel free to answer, no "C" required!
[08:56] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): both have a place :)
[08:56] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) nods
[08:56] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) nods to Brianne and smiles
[08:56] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): agreed with Doxie. both for sure
[08:57] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): both
[08:57] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): I agree with Doxie also
[08:57] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): I prefer private over public. I like to be treated like a lady in the streets (for the most part) and whore in the sheets, as the saying goes.
[08:57] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): hee
[08:57] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Three sheets to the wind?
[08:57] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): lol
[08:58] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): but the 'matter-of-fact" approach works for others too?
[08:58] Arrades Knight (arrades): Public humiliation, as long as I am leash to Sir, is good for as as it make me feel safe. But I can take more when done in private.
[08:58] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): I used to think all humiliation was a hard no, and then my Mistress introduced me to the concept of living art... which I LOVE. I agree entirely with Brianne - when my Mistress displays me, it's done through love and pride. Knowing those are the emotions behind it makes it thrilling, exciting and arousing, rather than something to be shied away from. Yet anything else to do with humiliation is still a no, even with her.
[08:58] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I've done a scene where I was a coffee table for a Top at the club, years ago. It had a very different feel in public than had that been done privately.
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): In private it would have been more intimate and "us" while at the club for 30 minutes it was "all eyes on us" kind of thing.
[08:59] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): agree Vanni and Kaneha...
[08:59] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) nods in agreement with Vanni.
[08:59] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): I love this comment ...Lady in public, slut in private
[08:59] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe): I can relate to that comment well smiles
[08:59] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence) looks at Vanni and hopes they used coasters
[09:00] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): lol
[09:00] Serreia (pixann): I love being on display....there is something very freeing for me
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) giggles sort of a small board to keep the drink in place
[09:00] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): Kaneha, I love that you mentioned " done through love and pride" That is so important
[09:00] Somnias поднимаю большой палец, Kaneha
[09:00] Somnias *>en thumbs up, Kaneha
[09:01] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria) smiles "It really is, Brianne, and that is the factor which really gets to me and sends me into subspace... in those moments, I would do anything for her. And other moments, too, of course..." :) #
[09:01] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): Yaaaas!
[09:02] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Excellent question and excellent response, thanks Brianna and A/all!
[09:02] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to Sir Lngo next with a comment
[09:02] Lngo Delvalle: I find it interesting that actions may be perceived differently from the top and the bottom. Example: I might slap on the face as an act of position power exchange - but that might be perceived as degradation by the sub. All so important in understanding the action and reactions. Not always the same.
Seems like a good aspect to cover when discussing limits etc. Not just the limit - but how actions are perecieved from Top and Bottom. #
[09:03] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): very good point, Sir!
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Right Sir!
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Negotiation is the key
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Slap my arse as much as You like, DO NOT slap my face, that's a immediate red.
[09:04] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We talk before a scene, that's settled
[09:04] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Exactly *nods
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): BDSM is an ongoing conversation
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): As Peaches pointed out, she found out things about herself that surprised her
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): and she's grown over time, which is amazing
[09:05] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone) nods
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So she's given Master Ballard all kinds of additional tools *grins*
[09:06] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Very good comment Sir, thank You!
[09:06] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) nodded, grinning
[09:06] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to Doxie next, please
[09:06] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): thank you :)
[09:06] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): Though i would never want to engage in the more extreme humiliation play i do find it strangely satisfying to be leashed, and expected to kneel in silence while dominants talk over me. Of course I have experienced other variations ... being made to stand and strip for example, in public.
All these things i regard as part of being a submissive and completely at the service of my Master. I don't think about not simply obeying to the best of my ability.
Of course even dress control is part of this.
But all of this is just for my Master, whilst i will kneel generally i have little tolerance of being belittled by anyone else.
[09:07] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) nods to Doxie
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Exactly!
[09:07] Serreia (pixann): nods to Doxie's comment
[09:07] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): Smiles at my Dear Doxie
[09:07] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria) nods in agreement with Doxie
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): You and Master Upton have that relationship, He knows where and how to push, and through those acts you *serve* Him.
[09:07] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): yes :)
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): but if someone came up and just started yapping commands, I think your reaction would be "And who the f* are YOU?"
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Nicely put, of course :P
[09:08] RB Quinn (rbquinn): smiles and nods to Vanni
[09:09] RB Quinn (rbquinn): "Context Counts"
[09:09] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That said, there are of course bottoms and subs who DO enjoy being a public servant, we not should diminish their desires at all. Everyone has their thing.
[09:09] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Excellent comment, Doxie, thanks!
[09:10] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to the smexy and smart Dijana please!
[09:10] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Thanks Vanni....When I did the research for the workshop I was surprised at what I discovered, especially about emotional play....this was a great bit from the workshop, if you would please indulge me....
[09:10] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Because of the way our culture is, we often can not deal with emotions at the time we have them. Society doesn't adequately give people time to process a loss or other trauma. Many people are asked "How are you doing?" every day and give an automatic non-emotional response. Our politically correct culture may also not let us express our feelings or express them in ways that are satisfying or meaningful to us.
Feelings of anger and jealousy have roots that go back to our early days as humans. Expressing anger at a partner or outrage at a situation is limited by the reasonableness and rationality of our current time. Playing may be our way to express larger or more extreme emotions in a acceptable way. It's a way to work through things we are holding onto that keep us from leading a healthy and balanced life. It can even pave the way for a bottom to work through some very tough, emotional baggage that has possibly stolen their voice, their self esteem or even their health.
[09:10] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Emotional play is also an opportunity to experience or revel in emotions without having the serious consequences that often occur in real life events. Some of the benefits from emotional play include finding the strength to fight back, standing up to oppressors, transforming painful experiences into more positive situations and finding more respect for yourself or your partner. For some people this type of play is about revisiting, reliving, and coping with experiences to mentally rewrite or change them. Exploring in this way, they have the power to stop the scene at any moment and have control over it. Because of this, they are able to focus on, relive and reclaim or eliminate the anger and fear that they experienced during this act.
[09:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) claps
[09:11] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): I love that
[09:12] RB Quinn (rbquinn): applauds
[09:12] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): I think my IQ went up 10 pts just reading that.
[09:12] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone) Snaps!
[09:12] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): Wow!!!
[09:12] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): WOW !
[09:12] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): standing ovation
[09:12] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Nailed it! Lol
[09:12] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants): Very good!
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): See, smart and sexy!
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So well said Di
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): take care Sir
[09:13] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): I would have NEVER thought of emotional play in that way
[09:13] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) definitely makes a note of all that
[09:13] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) sat with her mouth agape, unable to form words
[09:14] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): It can be incredibly therapeutic, ironically enough *giggles
[09:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): again, the key here is done where the bottom/sub has the power...it's an empowering act
[09:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Whereas in abuse, the *abuser* has the power
[09:14] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): exactly!
[09:15] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): YES
[09:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): and all the abused person can do is run, not walk, to the nearest exit.
[09:15] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): or wait the ambulance....:(
[09:15] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) closed her eyes and shook her head as memories flashed thru her mind
[09:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Dijana thank you so much for that
[09:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): You are a treasure here at Xaara, really.
[09:16] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): aww...thank you Vanni
[09:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) sends Sir Stile a "Thank You Card" for letting her hand around :P
[09:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok next, Rouge with a comment please
[09:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): Thanks Vanni,
for me, be it here or in real life, humiliation is an integral part of who and what I am. some think it odd, given what all I went through with my rl ex. if anything, its given me a better appreciation of it, when its done by those I trust.
Be it name calling, a slap to the face and saying stuff, others may find derogatory, and in all honesty, it is, but not in a harmful way. it just adds that a bit of seasoning to the dynamic.
walking behind and to the left of my Master if habit, here and in real life. only ever go before my Master, or any other Dominant, if told to lead the way to some place They wish to be guided to.
as for pet play, forgive me if im wrong, but even pony play can be classed as such by some. the morphing of ones mindset to no longer act as a human, but an animal.
being a kajira, having to act as a table, is common to be honest. holding the tray, or even just having hands ready to take the drink or plate etc as and when is needed. hell, even could be an ashtray as
[09:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): part of cigar service for those who like that. again, many ways that can also be done.
what im getting at, is this. sure, some might look at things and go " oh hell no, stop that now!" and im like, hell yes, keep going and don't stop!" horses for courses, what's for one isn't always going to be for another.
some might not like what others do, but we can accept its how they role, what makes them happy. and never, ever try and shame a person for being into this sort of thing, or any other aspect of the lifestyle for that matter.
one thing I do recall my Master doing to myself last year was making me say something positive about myself to those I was holding a conversation with. this was by far from easy, as never EVER look at myself in that light. but I did it, and passed on the conversations as orders. was it hard to do, yes, was it humiliating, EXTREMELY, well for me anyway. but, I did learn from it. sure, im still struggling with being positive about myself, but think in a better place than had been.
[09:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): so in a way, humiliation can in fact be a good thing, rather than always being thought of as bad. #
[09:18] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): nods nods nods
[09:18] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) hands Rouge her book contract :P
[09:18] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): All incredibly well said Rouge!
[09:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): thank you. just say it as I see it. which at times usually gets me into bother lol
[09:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I especially like that end part where you mention that having to say positive things about yourself was humiliating.....that will come as a huge surprise to many not in this lifestyle
[09:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): I'm glad that you had to say positive things about yourself because you have a lot of positive things that should be recognized
[09:19] Arella McGregor (arella4): Nods
[09:19] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Yes!
[09:20] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) looks for a place to hide..
[09:20] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): grins
[09:20] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) sorry!
[09:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): 100% spot on Brianne
[09:21] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): we all recognize rouge's enormous worth..but she doesn’t
[09:21] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): all the Svenska girls are super duper. That Sweet-and-Lo Boobiez too
[09:21] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): HA! Vanni! I took it off!
[09:21] Lngo Delvalle: lol
[09:21] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Stand up comedians will run with a joke for a while :P
[09:21] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Thank you Rouge!
[09:21] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): even kneel down ones
[09:21] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): lol
[09:21] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): Better than sugar tits. she is a sweet heart
[09:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): :)
[09:22] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): I think Equal is feeling left out a bit Vanni *winks*
[09:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to that other smexy DJ among us, Dee
[09:22] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe): Thank you Vanni! Years ago I was a new submissive on another sim and had just graduated; one of the Masters summoned me via my IM telling me "Dee your slut, get your ass in here and kneel for me.. now!" Back then I felt degraded, but then again, I was a new submissive.. Fast forward to here in Xaara; I did attend daks workshop on humiliation play and I had a revelation, those words said to me all those years ago that bothered me, I had a revelation, those were things that actually "spoke" to me deep down. I didn't feel degraded at all, many of the things mentioned are things that are a big turn on for me now! grins Since then I have done scenes with my Master and a trusted Dominant where they called me slut, whore etc. it brought some primal, sexual feelings lol I will add, those were done privately and that if done in public I would feel differently about it. Master has me leashed regularly here in Xaara as well as other places and I enjoy that feeling of being connected to him and I feel
[09:22] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe): safe, cared for and loved, smiles #
[09:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): YES, Dee!
[09:23] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe) smiles
[09:23] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) nods in agreement with Dee
[09:23] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Love that for you, Dee! ^^
[09:23] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe) smiles to Rachel
[09:24] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): well said Dee!
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): One time I walked into House of V and some dipshit IMs me instantly and says almost the same thing "Come here and kneel, little bitch." Maybe it was the same one
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I'm like "Uh, no, who the f* are you?"
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Now if a Domiant who I willingly submit to did that, I'd go running
[09:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So it does hit us in a primal way, but as it has been mentioned here, CONTEXT matters
[09:25] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants): yes!
[09:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The *who* is doing this
[09:25] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): Makes a note to stop using the "little bitch" opening line :)
[09:25] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): Absolutely!
[09:25] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): note
[09:25] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): The when, the where, the tone of voice, it all matters a ton
[09:25] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): lol Master
[09:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Yus!
[09:26] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): and the deep down intentions
[09:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Spot on, Dee, and like Peaches, you have found things in yourself and grown, and that's so beautiful
[09:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We move to Kaneha please!
[09:27] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): One thing that I discovered as I explored living art with my Mistress was the way it actually let me reclaim my self-confidence. That was a really surprising outcome, and pretty much the exact opposite of what I had expected. So thinking back to what Dijana shared with us just now, I can see that's partly what I gained from exploring that aspect of humiliation play - a chance to work through some confidence issues. And I didn't even realise at the time, because I was so focused on the humiliation issue that I wasn't aware of that peripheral, secondary benefit. But it's only been possible because I have absolute trust in my Mistress. Without that, I would never even have agreed to start exploring. It's the difference between being put in a humiliating situation and being humiliated, and being put in a humiliating situation and made to feel like the Hope Diamond. #
[09:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Exactly, Kaneha!
[09:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Take care Sir!
[09:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): holy shit, Kaneha, you crystallized that thought for me too.
[09:28] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): I think of where I was and where I am now... where my Mistress has helped me to be... and they really are worlds apart.
[09:29] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): living art is not humiliation for me..this is...art and well see even in Vanilla event!
[09:29] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): I hear you there kaneha. im same in both realms also. still long ways to go personally, but a work in progress. and if we can be made into art along the way, then why not enjoy being such!
[09:29] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): I LOVE it now... but last year, I was more "You want me to do WHAT?!"
[09:29] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): that needed to be said too, Pure
[09:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It can be for some Pure, again, each person has different takes. Some people will NOT get nude in SL where we all look hawt.
[09:30] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): Exactly, Rouge :)
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Publically that is
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Others are like "If God wanted us wearing clothes he would have miracled them on us at birth"
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): so...different strokes and all :P
[09:30] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): It took me a while to be able to be nude in public in SL. There was a mental block there.
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): right!
[09:31] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Yeah I wear them sort of as a general courtesy here *giggles
[09:31] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): 2 years ago, I thought talk of how BDSM is therapeutic was simply justification. Now I KNOW how true that is.
[09:31] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): See, sunday mornings help!
[09:31] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Thanks Kaneha, excellent comment
[09:31] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): nude for art or at the fountain is right for me, but I realized I wont be if I am not under command of my Maitre.
[09:31] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): they do!
[09:32] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): im worse in real life. far more chunky than I am here. so when my rl Master had me posting my first pics on fet, im like say what?! but the more I do it, the more I enjoy doing it. not just cause He tells me to do it, but also, some have gathered quite a lot of likes, and to know its given so many pleasure, even if just for a few moments, makes me happy
[09:32] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): YES!
[09:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Final word: Humiliation play may NOT be for Y/you, and that's fine
[09:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): No one should ever think they MUST do anything in this lifestyle
[09:32] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): And we all have different speeds!
[09:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): it's what clinks in us and what works
[09:32] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): And that's ok!
[09:32] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) nods in agreement
[09:33] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) giggles and thinks she needs some therapy
[09:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But do know that Xaara is a safe place to learn and perhaps experiment with likeminded people
[09:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): And we might find ourselves doing things we thought we'd never do in time.
[09:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But if not, that's super cool do...do YOU.
[09:34] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): I agree Vanni...Xaara, workshops and the discussion here are so helpful...we are blessed!
[09:35] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Thank you so much Vanni! And E/everyone for sharing! Such a good chat today! ♥
[09:35] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): thank you so much Vanni....I love these discussions!
[09:35] Dee Wolfe (diana.wolfe): Thank you Vanni for this discussion, it was very interesting hearing E/everyone's take on the topic
[09:35] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): y'all have a good day. Thanks for the chat Vanni.
[09:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Next week we'll talk again about one more kind of Masochism, Extreme Play
[09:35] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): ooooo
[09:35] Arrades Knight (arrades): Have a good day all
[09:35] Ɛɱɱą Ɛŋƈɧąŋէɱεŋէ (emma.enchantment): was a great chat, thank you
[09:35] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): TC E/everyone
[09:35] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) perks up at that one
[09:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): and then we'll take an Easter Break to praise the good lord what sits up in the sky
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