[15:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[15:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[15:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open. Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.
[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we go to an interesting topic: training.
[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sounds like we're getting ready for the Westminster Dog Show lol
[15:13] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): puts up her hand. "Has been to Westminster!!"
[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In D/s relationships, as the Dom and the sub are connecting and getting to know one another, there is usually some kind of training that goes on.
[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One will often hear that a Dominant is training their sub.
[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or the sub will say they are undergoing or have completed 'training.'
[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the topic for today has a few questions:
[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1) Why is such training necessary? Do you have to retrain if you change to a different Dominant?
[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 2) How is this training done? What are the methods of training? What are the desired ends?
[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 3) How does one know the training is done? Or does it really "end" in a final sense? Is it in some way ongoing?
[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (Vanni the sociologist thinks it probably is ongoing but she will be interested to see what O/others think)
[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's see how this plays out!
[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rouge has been unable to fully contribute the past couple weeks due to her interwebz connection, so I'm expecting at least -- at least-- "Brothers Karamazov" level here! ;)
[15:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): smirks
[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Go ahead! :)
[15:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): Thanks Vanni,
[15:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):
now im sure W/we will all have a different view on this, but way I see it, and for me as an individual, training isn't just for the s-type.
like any relationship, both parties need to learn one another, learn what makes them tick, their good points and bad. even things they feel uncomfortable about, be it in a vanilla setting or a D/s, M/s setting
so, looking at it from this perspective, yes, the s-type may be new to the life, so needs to learn as much as possible, not just about any potential Owner, but also about the lifestyle, and more importantly, about themselves.
same can be said for any new D-types to the life.
even if both parties are experienced, albeit, maybe not to the same degree as each other, but have had time in the lifestyle, they still need to learn, to *train* in order for it all to work out. no point one party putting in all the effort, and the other just sits back, reaping the rewards, and giving nothing back. that's a sure sign to have it falling on its arse.
[08:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα:
then there are those who just click. I can honestly say, that sure, there was a small bit of learning both my Owners here, as well as in real life, but for the most part, it just felt natural, and things fell into place automatically.
that said, like the saying goes " every day is a school day" no one ever knows it all, and if they claim to, then they're setting themselves up fro a massive fall, as well the chance of making a fool of not just themselves, but those they are connected with. #
[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I like that Rouge!
[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not sure a D-type would use the term "training" for themselves, but it certain is necessary that both sides learn the other.
[15:21] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I prefer "Learning"
[15:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed, Master
[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "training" certainly suggests impressing a set of behaviors on the other, while "learning" is knowing the other, what behaviors are wanted or unwanted, and how to get the other to do the will of the D-type
[15:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): way I see it, a D-type can't really be in a position to Own anyone if they arent prepared to learn themselves. to Master another, one needs to be able to Master ones self
[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes!
[15:22] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Truth
[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's true to anyone!
[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): γνῶθι σαυτόν -- "Know Thyself." Delphic maxim
[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First thing in my profile
[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A friend of mine that isn't in SL anymore had a cool line in her profile:
[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "I came not to conquer the world and enrich myself, but to conquer myself and enrich the world."
[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I always liked that
[15:24] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Nice
[15:24] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[15:24] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): thats a good one
[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Rouge! :)
[15:25] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): welcome!
[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Master Ballard please, keepin' it in the family so to speak! ;)
[15:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Related to the initial training you mention:
Training. I train dogs, and we train children. Training means teaching an unknown skill set. I feel that in a relationship between adults to characterize it as 'training' is pretentious. This comes mostly from my years in Gor where submissives are trained endlessly on things they already know, by dominants that are utterly clueless as to how to dominate. Is a 1,000 word serve really that important?
We are all learning, everyday. The effort to learn must be universal for both D and s. If I demand a skill, then yes, I may train my girl to do that one action. The main effort is on how we live together, how we get along, how we can function harmoniously in a community such as Xaara.
Rather than training - what we need, and most of us do, is mutually learning each other's needs and wants. I do have rules and desires. I do teach my submissives what I expect as a member of our household. But I find it hard to characterize that as training. Yes, this is
[08:25] Ballard: a life process. A successful relationship must be one of daily learning.
[15:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): a life process. A successful relationship must be one of daily learning.
[15:26] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): WELL SAID
[15:26] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[15:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said Master!
[15:27] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I think y'all just liked how I dissed Gorean Masters!
[15:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm an instructor but I wouldn't call what I do for a living "training," it's teaching
[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree, Master, that training involves getting a specific skill set for a specific task, like when we got new curriculum software and we had to be :trained" on how to use it
[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Unfortunately no ball gags or spankings were involved in said training....
[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But the software was painful enough...
[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And referring Gorean Training was interesting...we'll see if O/others do the same :)
[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Master Ballard!
[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Hestia please!
[15:30] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): My feeling is "training" is simply a catch phrase that the community has picked up and used to encompass many things. IMO, what it really is ...is negotiation, discussion. defining boundaries, limits, wants vs needs, etc. Working thro these..and then moving on with the relationship. and when a stumbling block is encountered, you go back to negotiation, discussion, definitions again. you find what works, or what you can compromise on. Its just like any other relationship, or one would hope this is how relationships should work outside of this community HOWEVER....we all know that is not the case. So if the use of the word "Training" makes both parties, and it does take TWO to discuss, negotiate, and define, stop and do those things, then this is a positive.
[15:31] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): another great comment
[15:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good!
[15:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Question for you Hestia as a follow up:
[15:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree 100% with what you said as far as how things work and how they should work
[15:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But do you think that this could also apply to vanilla relationships? Is there some kind of "training" or impressment of will that goes beyond all the important items you said here?
[15:35] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): IF one supposed to my definition of what "Training" means, then every relationship....whether is is vanilla or BDSM, or working with your dog....all those things have to apply...IMO. there has to be a meeting of wills, minds and egos. NO..this does not always happen. Should it always happen? YES. but we live in a human world where none of us is perfect. But as for your question, to the heart of it. I believe the very structure of teh D/s relationship GIVES credit to that...negotiation...as a vital part of what will be.
[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed 100%
[15:35] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The Dom and the sub agree where the control will be. And if there are changes, that's more negotiation.
[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks! :) Great comments!
[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): WE move to Kaneha please!
[15:36] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): I only have experience of one Dominant, and my 'training' was more learning my Mistress's preferences, likes and dislikes, and following her rules. Learning definitely continues, because I know my limits have changed in the time I have been with her, which means we both have new cues to learn from each other as our relationship deepens and strengthens. Taking the time to learn each other means that we have very, very few issues, and our bond is incredibly strong as a result. But if she and I ever parted ways *shudders at even the thought of that*, then I would expect to have to start all over again if I was fortunate enough to find someone else willing to accept me as Theirs. I completely agree with everything which has been said so far about knowing oneself, because I am constantly learning new things about myself and my submission, and that's entirely down to the environment Mistress provides for me so I have the boundaries and structure in place to feel safe while I explore with her. It is definitely a
[15:36] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): two-way thing - we can't learn and progress without each other's input. #
[15:37] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): OO i like that statement!
[15:37] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): smiles at Hestia
[15:37] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[15:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, well said :)
[15:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have a term at the college for returning students, those that come long after 'graduation age' -- 'Lifelong Learners'
[15:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think we are all that no matter where we are and what the social situations may be
[15:38] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): nods in agreement
[15:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said Kaneha!
[15:39] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): Thank you, Vanni ♥
[15:39] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!
[15:40] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to la belle jeune fille, Sylvie please
[15:41] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you Vanni
[15:41] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I'm not sure I understand the concept of "training"? Requirements of my Master, Protocol to be observed at home and during outings....But "training"? Shouldn't a D/s relationship, like any other relationship, develop naturally? Of course, Master has certain rules and I must obey. I try to remember my beginnings in the lifestyle. I have no memories of being trained like a little dog. (Other than having to learn how to make a decent RLV folder for my first Master on SL). My relationship with Master Lngo has developed through discussions and negotiations. Trust was established and everything went as naturally as possible! Devotion, obedience and infinite love for my Master. But...Negociation too.
[15:41] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Training? I train my animals to behave properly. And there's no bargaining there! Done
[15:42] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): gives Sylvie a hug
[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well my cats are still training me, and they still seem very unhappy with their selected "office staff' let me tell you
[15:42] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): giggles
[15:43] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): Cats are impossible to please
[15:43] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): laughs
[15:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol so true
[15:43] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Passes Catnip around the room
[15:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I hear a common thread so far in replies -- "training" is a less preferred word to "negotiation" and mutual connection
[15:44] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Training is not a part of our language in our relationship
[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nor should it be as that is how Y/you both see things! :)
[15:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And to be honest, in 10+ years in the BDSM community in First Life, this isn't something used much there either, at least to my experience
[15:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But of course, most of that is S/M play that's fairly casual, after some negotiation on a scene
[15:46] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I know few Doms who train their girls like animals..but I also know these girls been unhappy and asked for realease.
[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is pony training, but that's a desire in both the pony and the trainer
[15:48] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Training is a kink in its' own right
[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sylvie!
[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Sir Islador please!
[15:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok then, we move on to CC please
[15:51] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): I have learned from the beginning in D/s, that it's important to pace yourself, do all the exploration of wants and needs, then the training and then after while, you make the relationship formal as you call your Dom Master, Mistress or whatever their chosen honorific.
That said, with my present Domme, Zati, we broke all these rules and fell into a natural rhythm and pattern of complimentary behaviors so that by the end of our first week, I was comfortable enough to call her Mistress and we've been together since. We have been together over 1 and half years. We are are now closer than ever. Perhaps I should warn people not to try this at home. You know the Shtick, "we are trained professionals." lol
But then, when you talk about training, it sometimes implies pop behaviorism, as in training circus animals, not humans, which I have an overly stated antipathy for, here in Xaara discussions. But then some subs like to be "pets" which is fine.
[15:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm very happy that has worked for Miss Zati and you CC :)
[15:53] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): thank you
[15:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As we know, SL moves at hyperspeed, and often people will rush into things minus really connecting.
[15:54] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): I agree
[15:54] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): Zati and I had a freakishly natural bonding that happened fast
[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't think in general people that use the term "training" really mean it like they're a seal learning to play horns or what have you :P I think it's more learning the will of the Dominant and becoming what they want.
[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOTS of subs in SL have something in their profile like "I am owned body and soulby XXX, and Their will is my will"
[15:56] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): yes but then we do hear doms talking about extrinsic reward.
[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nofs
[15:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said CC thanks for the comment :)
[15:57] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (Consuela Caldwell): Thank you Vanni
[15:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Master Ballard please
[15:57] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I want to state the obvious, what we have not explicitly said: Training cannot bring about compatibility. We Svenskas are an open household, and each of us is free to explore other people so we may enjoy, grow, and expand our horizons.
[15:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So true Master!~
[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do a chapter on Marriage and Family in Intro to Sociology, and I tell my students "Look, that wedding ring is NOT the One Ring of Power. It doesn't make anyone into anything else. So when you put on that other person, you be damn sure that's the person you want for the rest of your life, because they're almost certainly not changing from that point on."
[15:59] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Exactly. DO NOT try to fix me.
[16:00] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): (Refrains from fixing Ballard)
[16:00] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees :)
[16:00] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): well, we don't change our nature, but we still have to evolve and be on the same step of the stairs
[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh certainly
[16:01] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but if people just spent a year dating and a year engaged (or whatever time frame) and they still think 'I can make this person better' they're fooling themselves
[16:01] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): concession, negotiation, trust...that is far from "training" lol
[16:01] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I agree Vanni.
[16:02] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Even if I feel that I am a better person since I met Master Lngo
[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You grow together :")
[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which is healthy
[16:02] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): agreed
[16:02] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): exactly :)
[16:02] Daelenie McMillan (Daelenie McMillan): only you can make yourself better, though He is the inspiration for it.
[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes Dae!
[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Taking on a 'project person' in any sense of the word is simply a recipe for disaster
[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent, thank You Master Ballard!
[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Sir Lngo please!
[16:03] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Many of us commenting have been in the lifestyle for some time. But, when someone is brand new., either Dominant or Submissive, there is a degree of training... or teaching. Especially in accepting the concepts of power exchange D/s, and in the kinky tastes of S/m. For a Dom or Sub working with someone new..... there is a degree of training.. or teaching... as one explores and becomes knowledgable e to the wonders of BDSM.
[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Sir!
[16:04] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[16:04] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): nods in agreement, a little smile curving her lips
[16:04] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): smiles softly
[16:05] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): When was the first time you enjoyed the rougher side of S/m ? example whipping or being whipped?
[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think Master Ballard's comment earlier about how 'training' involves learning a skill set dovetails nice with what You just said.
[16:05] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): mumbles..the first time the whip hit me..
[16:05] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Agreed - Ballard very nicely articulated some very good points.
[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): cues up "When the Whip Comes Down"
[16:05] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): thank you
[16:06] Arella McGregor (Arella4 Resident): rimshopt ... cuz brianne isnt here
[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Mistress :)
[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yeah where is Blondie today
[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Probably getting whipped
[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫
[16:07] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): lol
[16:07] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thank You Sir!
[16:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So again, I think the general consensus here is that 'training' is a word that has some negative connotation. "Learning and Growing Together" seems to be more the theme
[16:08] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): yes Vanni!
[16:08] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[16:09] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees :)
[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): However, people use different collars, in fact one is specifically referred to as a "training collar"....before a full collar is given out
[16:09] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement.
[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So is there some expectation that the submissive will adhere and move to some level of desired behavior at each of these collars?
[16:11] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): training collar, erase training to put "teaching" or "learning"
[16:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master Laz often asks at this kind of discussion 'Where is the D/s?' I guess that's what I'm asking as well. Do we have specific expectations that are more...formal and rigid than what is done in the vanilla world?
[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): whispers an apology for leaving and walks out as quietly as possible.
[16:12] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I go for formal, not rigid Vanni
[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think we'll continue this next week with a talk on "expectations'
[16:14] Ele Weymann (Elenie GossipGirl): Thank you A/all for your interesting points of view
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