[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open. Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:13] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): C I will need to leave at 9am for another meeting, thank you #
[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last week we had a discussion of "training"
[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And the general consensus was that the word "training" was considered less acceptable than "negotiation" and coming to consensus in the relationship
[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But a follow up that came up near the end was "expectations"
[15:15] Stephen Xootfly (Stephen Xootfly): Not called overriders for nothing
[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Each party in any relationship, from zero formality to ultra-formal comes in with some level of expectation
[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even if these expectations are not clearly articulated
[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): for example, in a business relationship, each party will spell out exactly what they expect in such a set of dealings
[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they will be clearly articulated
[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and then put in a contract that can be enforced by law
[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or at least one party may need to go to court to force change
[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (Think the Elon Musk/Twitter deal going on now)
[15:17] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): nods
[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On the other hand, in a loving vanilla relationship, say leading to marriage, most people don't have "planning sessions" and lay out expectations of the other before they get married
[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact, when we talk about pre-nups in class, most students think them horrendous, why would you want to create a contract with someone you love?
[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Shouldn't you just trust them to do right?
[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha ha ha...HA HA HA
[15:19] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Ask Paul McCartney :)
[15:19] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): Lol
[15:19] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): shakes her head.
[15:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*
[15:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*
[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excuse the wicked laugh
[15:19] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): lol
[15:19] Stephen Xootfly (Stephen Xootfly): Ha ha ha
[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the question today kind of flows from last week's discussion
[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What expectations should Dom s and subs have concerning each other?
[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it proper for a sub to say "I will do X and Y but you have to do A and B?" at least during the negotiation phase?
[15:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some Dom s in SL have stuff in their profiles like "Subs are meant to please me. Do not come to me with your expectations. You are here to amuse me." or something like that
[15:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And some sub types feel ANY negotiation is "topping from the bottom."
[15:22] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So as D/s is more of a formal thing than romantic, vanilla relationship, how do expectations of both parties jive with it? Should we have any? Do we just "go with the flow?"
[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's see what you A/all lthink!
[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master Ballard, You are up first!
[15:23] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Vanni Said:
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On the other hand, in a loving vanilla relationship, say leading to marriage, most people don't have "planning sessions" and lay out expectations of the other before they get married
Actually in any relationship, that is the ONLY way to make it work. My wife is a submissive tradwife and so perhaps we cannot claim true vanilla status. But before we got married I made sure that we both laid out our wants, needs, and expectations. We have been together for 35 years, so it seems to be working.
Of course the same applies to any D/s, vanilla, gay, business working or any other relationship. Expectations must be made clear, or people go astray.
#
[15:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Master!
[15:25] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Congrats to you and your wife!
[15:25] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): C
[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What I meant was, in general, people don't sit in a formal meeting and lay out expectations, at least usually, when they are in love. But they should IMO.
[15:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): They damn well should
[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Love conquers all" right? HA HA HA HA HA (excuse the second evil laugh please)
[15:25] Aoife McGregor (Aoife McGregor): :P
[15:25] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): that is always the first thing Master Ballard wants from a new sub and renewed by us old subs is a wants and needs card
[15:26] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): evil laugh excused
[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): grins
[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thank You Master!
[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Sir Lngo please!
[15:26] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): This is an intresting topic - I think expectations desires wants needs - we are all so different - really comes back to compatibility. Sylvie and I really are highly compatible in all we do. There is very little negotiation now - lots of communication and expression of wants and desires.
The ability to communicate with trust seems to be hugely important. It takes more than just love.
#
[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've been doing this for years, Sir, and I think "communication" is the word we have used the most in any of these discussions.
[15:29] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): communication is the glue that holds any relationship together..when it gets old and dried up, it falls apart
[15:29] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): nods
[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think over time such talk is the way we do negotiation, as we connect deeper with each other so having a "formal session" is less than just the dynamics of day to day talk over things
[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Amen Peaches
[15:30] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): C@Lngo
[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Go ahead please Master RB
[15:32] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): The terms Lngo lists are, to me, not really equivalent, and the one that stands out to me is "expectations", which focuses on the 'other' and not the 'self'.#
[15:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods "understood Master. I think "expectations" are a two way street. I have them, but the other has to express them."
[15:33] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think anyway
[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Sir Lngo and Master RB!
[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we have a lot to go through so let's move on
[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aoife you are up please
[15:34] Aoife McGregor (Aoife McGregor): Thank you Vanni. I think its important to at least state the basics of one's expectations before committing to a dynamic. Things like availability, needs/wants, kinks, married or single - any of these things can be a deal breaker. And its better to know that upfront, so both people can make an informed decision. A month in only to find out your loving slave is married with two kids, when you were expecting a SL to RL transition really sucks. But in an ideal world, we are going to take our time talking about expectations, among other things before a collar#
[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!
[15:35] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement with Aoife.
[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a difference between some fun playtime and a real relationship
[15:35] Aoife McGregor (Aoife McGregor): nods ndos
[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And anything that can affect the other needs to be dealt with
[15:36] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): nods
[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if a person isn't comfortable with certain questions, no harm, that just means those two people aren't compatible
[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it goes back to what Master Ballard said at the beginning
[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point, thanks Aoife!
[15:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go on to Sir Cary please
[15:37] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): I had a boss who had a "business relationship" with his wife that lasts to this day, 40 plus years later, with children, winks*. Personally a sub may Ask anything... but it will be negotiated in one way or another... and not "tit for tat either" #
[15:38] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sir, may I ask how You mean "not tit for tat?"
[15:38] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): listened attentively, curious herself
[15:38] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): I'll do this for that.. kiind of thing.. mutuallity is key.. in the perspective that has been discussed
[15:40] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): ( also a pun ) #
[15:41] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ah, understood Sir.
[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it depends on the two (or more)...some D/s connectoins are as you mentioned, more of they service each others' needs, and some are more romantic. I thinik it all just depends, and people go with what works for T/them
[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sir! :)
[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's move on to Master Abraham please!
[15:42] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): Some of you came from Gor and know that a fw and fm draw up a contract and even slaves and masters thought not as common. So this may not be a foreign concept. I lay our my expectations as I begin to formally court a woman in Sl . And with dee I gave her a contract that we went over line by line and discussed in voice. And every six months I check to see if it needs to be revised. But everything is discussed and was before I collard her including her status as first girl and what that would look like. But a lot of discussion on what we both need and want as a couple#
[15:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): applauds!
[15:43] Dee Wolfe-Jacobson (Diana Wolfe): smiles
[15:43] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): well said Abraham
[15:43] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some might balk at the idea of a contract. I think it's a great idea, especially an open one that can be revised over time
[15:44] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): nods
[15:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have what I call a "living syllabus" I give to students, understanding that what it says is open to interprtation, in their favor, but OKed by me
[15:45] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)
[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I think that's very healthy, Master Abraham
[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank Youy!
[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's move to my smexy twinsie next to me
[15:45] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Go ahead Blondie
[15:45] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Thank you, smexy twinsie!
[15:46] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Negotiation is hard for me, and, as I've mentioned before, my Mistress is working on me to avoid passivity. However, it's in my nature not to presume too much, or narrow her options, but I do KNOW that I mustn't be utterly passive, that I MUST make sure that all of my views, as well as hers, are out in the open. She's honest with me, and by reciprocating, I'm honoring her AND our dynamic AND me. And when I am fully open about my needs, wants, desires, expectations, I always end up feeling very good, and always see results that make us BOTH happy. (She's a very encouraging Domme) New ideas crop up, roadblocks are cleared, tension is released, etc. So it's worth that moment of awkwardness to get things clear. Even if it does make me sweat a little! Yikes! (This one of the reasons why being a submissive has been personally good for me. I think I need this sort of training.) #
[15:46] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): YES!
[15:46] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)
[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): would throw my arms around Brianne and smooch her but...well....
[15:47] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): DO IT!!!!!
[15:47] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): boobie bumps Vanni !
[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can't Master!
[15:47] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): (blushes)
[15:47] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol
[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): kisses her cheek instead
[15:47] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): giggles.
[15:47] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): can we watch
[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol
[15:47] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): blast
[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's not THAT kind of Brianne and Vanni show, Master :P
[15:47] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): oh, Vanni, I think we have a spin-off ready
[15:48] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): rim-shot!
[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol yes
[15:48] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): smiles broadly at Sir RB
[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But 100% agreed there....that's what we call in sociology "communicative action," actions and things done informed by clear discourse
[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Society works best when we do that
[15:49] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods, "sound smarter that way"
[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And any relationship
[15:49] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): it leaves little room for misunderstanding
[15:49] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods
[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I love how you say that in your relationship with Miss Katie, the more you open up to your wants and needs, the deeper the connection is
[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): "we don't make a home for Mr. Cock-up" that way
[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): has Mr. Cock-Up tied up in my closet
[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): that is such a good insight, Vanni
[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh wait, TMI
[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*
[15:50] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly Peaches!
[15:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Blondie, thank you!
[15:51] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): welc!
[15:51] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Callie you are up please!
[15:51] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): Thank you Vanni.
[15:51] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): As a perfectionist, clear expectations are extremely important to me. When in the submissive headspace, I want to be the most pleasing subbie possible. I need to know what is expected of me in order to do that, and to go above and beyond as I tend to. When in the Domme headspace, I want to set clear expectations so that I am not disappointed. How can someone know what behavior I want from them if I don't tell them precisely what is expected? #
[15:51] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Brilliant!
[15:52] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Exactamundo!"
[15:54] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think also that subs and even slaves can and should have clear expectations from their Dominant/owner. Not in a 'quid pro quo' way, as Sir Cary pointed out, but certainly a sub should expect that their Other will do what they say they will. Energy has to be exchanged to keep a relationship happy and moving
[15:54] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees :)
[15:54] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A usual saying around here is "subs aren't doormats"
[15:55] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement. "I have experienced quite a bit of hurt due to uncommunicated or unclear expectations."
[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods
[15:55] Cary (Cary Ravenhurst): Nods!
[15:55] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): at the same time, the sub/slave can't just start dictating terms, that is the real "Topping from the Bottom"
[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thank you Callie!
[15:56] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles at Vanni.
[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to *Sylvie* (not Sophie as I said last week lol)
[15:56] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you Vanni..smiles
[15:57] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): When I returned to SL, I certainly did not expect to meet a Master as wonderful as my Master Lngo. I wanted a good Master, who accepts a mono relation and wants to establish a good connection. Master Lngo is by far the best man I have met. We talked a lot about our expectations, our needs. We also have a contract. I've been wearing his collar for almost a year now (August 24) SL. I believe that indeed, communication is what matters most to us. Expectations evolve and change over time. To maintain a solid and harmonious relationship, it is essential to be clear and to talk about our expectations. Yes, this is done on a daily basis, but also during contract revisions. Aren't expectations there only to "serve" a purpose? Everyone's happiness within the relationship! Thank you Master Lngo for being who you are with me. It takes great skill to be open and transparent in our exchanges, regardless of the aspect of our relationship.#
[15:57] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[15:58] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): mm kisses Sylvie on the head
[15:58] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Yay! Love the use of "harmonious". that's a key factor.
[15:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOVE IT!
[15:58] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): nods!! yes
[15:58] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): nods and sends a smile to Sylvie
[15:58] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you
[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have no comment other than *well said!*
[15:59] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): that pretty well sums it up Sylvie! thanks!
[15:59] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): blushes..
[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Rebeccah...uh...Sylvie :P
[15:59] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Giggles
[15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫
[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Take care Sir!
[15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ
[15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ
[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you! Try the fish!
[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent comments!
[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seroiusly thanks Sylvie!
[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia, you are up please!
[16:01] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): We tend to be much wiser about expectations and not jumping into the pool so swiftly, when we are....older and more seasoned in our reasoning of expectations vs reality.
IF we knew then, what we know now, our earlier relationships in RL or SL might have been quite different, but as i have always said...Love, makes one Deaf, Dumb, Blind and Stupid.
I myself have suffered from that affliction, but with the right partner RL/SL,....discussing and negotiation...and HONESTY...can abate some of the expectation vs reality. For SL i personally believe that one of the biggest issues of expectation vs reality....is moving to RL. Getting involved with someone whom is clear that there will be NO RL at all, while your hope is for RL, or you expect some aspect of RL to be part of the relationship...is a disaster because your expectations are not going to be met with reality in a positive way.
Sir Davos and i, first thing, RL boundaries were discussed...i mean within a couple of weeks of us meeting. So, it was clear,
[16:01] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): and we both respected that boundary. Yes it has been revisited over the years, and some aspects have opened. but still the agreement is, and remains, NO RL, because neither of us was looking for RL. We support fully each others RL marriages, and our RL partners fully support our SL marriage. negotiation, discussion, talking, honestly....will work in the end
[16:01] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)
[16:02] Stevie McGregor (StevieBlue Resident): smiles
[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1000000% agreed
[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And it goes back to what Aoife said at the beginning -- be up front about what one expects, and what one can or is willing to give, makes it much more lasting
[16:03] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Wonderful Hestia!
[16:03] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I throw something on someone six months in that was never talked about, how is that fair to the other?
[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And all that is going to do is tear things apart
[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I also like how you said that things can be revised over time. Humans are dynamic, not statues. We have to have the ability to change up
[16:05] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): C
[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's why I reject the idea that "a slave negotiates once but never again." That's great if one has a love doll, but that's a human. Of course, a slave is totally at the will of their owner, but a good owner listens to concerns and adjusts accordingly. Lost of trust there, which acn only be tempered by communcation
[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thanks so much Hestia! Nail on the head!
[16:06] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): "a happy slave is an obedient slave"
[16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly!
[16:07] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!
[16:07] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to Sylvie please!
[16:09] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I wanted to say a big thank you to Hestia for "light" about RL expectations. We all know some of us have this dream. Life can give us bumps and show us that is the real leader. And that is important to keep in mind that and be realistic about RL expectations
[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Indeed
[16:09] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): winks at Syvlie :)
[16:09] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Pout coz Doc say no for travel....Life decide!
[16:10] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Done
[16:10] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Gives Sylvie a hug
[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): maybe one day Sylvie!
[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and I love what you said!
[16:10] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): I trust the life Vanni
[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :)
[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for that
[16:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to Callie please!
[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): One thing that Vanni just said, about waiting six months to say something, brings me back to something I read about the difference between honesty and transparency.
[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I read this in someone's profile and it always stuck with me.
[16:11] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): "In my life, I have found that there is a line for many people when it comes to being honest. That line? If you don’t ask the question, it is not dishonest if they did not tell you. Well, that doesn’t work for me. I am not honest, I am transparent. I tell the people who matter, the ones who have earned the rights to information about my life, all relevant facts. Not because they ask, but because they need to know. That is the difference between honesty and transparency. I lay all my cards on the table, give you my truth and let you decide for yourself if you want to be part of my story with the things you know. Because anything less, is deception by omission and people deserve better than that.
Give me transparency or just don’t waste my time and energy."
[16:13] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): That's a keeper.
[16:13] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): sweet
[16:13] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I have always been the transparent type, and ask for transparency in return. All expectations, FL and SL, should be discussed, in my opinion. Expectations are expectations #
[16:14] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): cheers for Callie
[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with a lot of that, but I think there is "need to know" vs "not". And it's up to each person and relationship to figure out what that line is
[16:14] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles to Sir RB.
[16:14] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): I agree, Vanni.
[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As long as people are honest about "I need to know these things" that's great.
[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not handing someone my curriculum vitae with all my info lol
[16:15] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I absolutely agree Vanni. And the expectation that FL is a no go is a valid expectation. Just say so upfront.
[16:15] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): also awards extra points to Callie for using "FL". Wishes that would trend.
[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!
[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): clear, communicative action!
[16:16] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles at Brianne. "I am trying. Master and I tell people that we use FL, because the feelings are all real, FL and SL."
[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is why any negotiation that is moving forward from simple playtime to more should start with "here is what I expect and want to know'
[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if compatibility is an issue it can stop there and much less hurt
[16:16] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): couldnt agree more callie
[16:16] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): nods to Vanni
[16:16] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): totally
[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said, thanks Callie!
[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to hestia for today's final comment
[16:17] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): I get transparency, but i have met far too many whom use it as a stage to be brutally blunt, and hurtful, rather than simply stating the point in a respectful manner, with some form of diplomacy... with the following comment about "just being transparent"....no...you are using that as a catch phrase to be nasty. So its a matter of how one employs the concept of transparency #
[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right everything needs to be tempered
[16:17] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in agreement with Hestia.
[16:17] ღ-Sultry-ღ (Sultry Sassypants): So true, Hestia.
[16:18] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): words wound
[16:18] Stevie McGregor (StevieBlue Resident): nods
[16:18] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): Exactly Peaches!!!!
[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Being honest isn't a euphanism for being an asshole
[16:18] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): or cruel
[16:18] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): i prominse not to be honest does that help
[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol
[16:18] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol
[16:18] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫
[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you!
[16:18] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): laughs and shakes her head
[16:18] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): giggles
[16:18] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): What you say and the actions to follow is how people get hurt feeling and emotional.
[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Hestia!
[16:18] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): #
[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes
[16:19] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): if its in my head, i can garentue it will leave my lips
[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sometimes we have to be utterly truthful, but it doesn't have to be used as a knife to the chest either
[16:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Peaches, ready to throw your head back and laugh?
[16:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ
[16:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ
[16:19] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): yes, sugar
[16:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So best to have those discussions up front
[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Hestia!
[16:20] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): ᴴᵃᴴᵃ-ᴴᵃᴴᵃᴴᵃ
[16:20] (Coffee Discussion Tracker): Thank you for attending this discussion.
[16:20] (Coffee Discussion Tracker): The tracker is now off and the floor is open to everyone.
[16:20] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): I have to watch what I say and how I act before I say it.
[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we all do!
[16:20] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods nods!
[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I told some of my students what I think about their papers I'd be having a chat with the VP of Instruction
[16:20] Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): What a wonderful discussion today!!!
[16:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so instead I give them nice, constrticismuctive cri
[16:21] Hestia Namaar (sarynaGareth Resident): wonderful indeed! now ..time to go check the chickens for eggs!!!
[16:21] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Yes, Sylvie!
[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good god
[16:21] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): forgive me for leaving. Had my IT man come and work on my computer.
[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you A/all!
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