"Love and D/s, a Special Valentine Discussion": February 14, 2021

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: And Happy Valentine's Day!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So today, as it's the Day of Love, I thought we'd chat about how love fits in our D/s paradigm.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: I think a lot of people in the lifestyle here in SL are looking for love with kinky, D/s stuff....while in First Life, at least in my experience, most people are looking to get their S/M kink going and relationship is far less common.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: both are 100% fine of course

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So I thought today we'd chat about how we connect love with D/s lifestyle activity.  And does it have to be stereotypical "romantic" love?

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Can a Dom/me and Their Sub or Slave love each other in a way that does not involve romance?

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: It's a very open ended idea to connect love to how we do things.  What do you all think?

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Upton, You are first please!

[08:16] Upton O'Goode: No though what is romantic to one may be different than what is romantic to others. some may want roses and others may want thorns but both would fall under " a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love"

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Sir!

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: In fact one of the standard books to give to people new to the lifestyle is "Screw The Roses, Send me the Thorns!" Oddly enough...

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So good point, Sir!  Each person determines what that means.  Thank You!

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Amber, you are up please!

[08:18] ღ αмвєя ღ: In a word, "no"...  but it is nuanced - is it possible to have a *different type* of romantic love?  I think it is - but there will always be the cross-over that comes with a deep and close relationship, and I hope we wouldn't argue that submission at depth isn't close.  Of course, the fact we have SL can change things to - I love my husband to death but come to SL for something else - I love a lot - and know that I will be able to love here too (but I don't want a second husband!!)  #

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: The Buddha used the analogy of the candle to explain how we can love and care for each other...no matter how many candles we light, we never lose the flame.  So I think love is like that.

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Taree please

[08:21] Taree: What is love?  Love is a feeling of trust, safety, intimacy.  I love my Master.  I think about him throughout my day.  He is a central figure in my entire life, both SL and RL.   I think that D/s without love would be a shallow and empty attempt at cheap thrills. 

I also love others here,  I have a degree of those feelings for at least two other Masters.  Without my love they really would not be as important to me, nor would I feel my submission as keenly.

And my sister Elli is one I trust, and gain a huge sense of belonging from.  I love her in a different way, but no less deeply.

D/s is the long term style of relationships.  D/s is what we live, where BDSM is what we may do.  I think D/s is a structure for love to flourish within. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Oh very well said, Tarree!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: And we move to Sir RB!

[08:26] RB Quinn: I would not dream of forcing my own view on anyone else, but to *me*, D/s kink without some degree of love sounds awfully ... transactional and, again for me personally, drab and uninteresting. And.... no, Taree and I did not consult in writing our comments!!  *kisses Taree and whispers "I love you"* #

[[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's move on, thank you Sir RB!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Tann, you are up please!

[08:30] Tann Stormhaven: If this doesn't make sense I blame still not being all the way awake but... Love is a fun emotion and when combined with the intensity of a D/s dynamic can create experiences that go beyond simple emotions and into something I can only describe as sacred. I don't think that love needs to be part of a D/s dynamic any more than D/s needs to be part of love, but I think when the two are combined it creates a very unique experience for all involved. One of the things I struggle with personally within a dynamic at times is figuring out how to express love in an effective way.. I have learned that for me "defining" the love I feel for someone I am in a dynamic with is important. For example I can love a slave and want the best for them but I would not say I have ever been "in love" which is a giddy emotion for me..... hope that makes sense.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: OH it does, Miss!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: Andin fact something I'd like to get to after comments on this opening round.

[08:31] Brianne: You're speaking of "connection" Miss?

[08:31] Tann Stormhaven: yes anne

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Peyton has a comment on what Miss Tann just said, so go ahead, we "promote" You, Sir!

[08:32] Peyton Menges: I think the same can be said about sex in general - sex as a pleasure delivery is great, but when combined with the emotion of someone you love - it's more intense, mindblowing.  It is how open relationships can work naturally, in my own experience.  #

[08:32] Peyton Menges: and thank you for promoting me!  *puts on a Captain's hat*

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: I agree Sir, sex and love are connected deeply!  So D/s can have that connection as well.

[08:34] Tann Stormhaven: wait D/s and sex are two different things?

[08:35] Tann Stormhaven: I think I've been doing something wrong....

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: We go back to Taree for a double dip

[08:35] Taree: I want to say that I have heard some people say that love is the road to monogamy.  I feel a need to dispel that myth, please.  I love my Master, and know of his various adventures with other submissives.  I love it!  He is an energetic and exploring mind, a good soul, and he loves to meet new people, and sometimes have intimacy, and feelings for them.  I am the same, in my way.  My deep love for my family does not at all exclude the pleasures of other partners, or lovers.  If anything I feel safer because I have roots, a foundation to work from.  I feel that the love we share is a basis for our open nature.  It works for us, at least.  As Master says, we all have to do it in our own ways. #

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Taree, thank you!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Aspen please

[08:38] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni, It is the emotion of love is contained in so many ways. You have a love for your moms and dad and family members. Then you have love for deep friendship with others. Then the Man and Woman. That is where the D/s or M/s comes in because you can be working at work and have a happy throught of your mate. Not sex but why he/she would make you smile or giggle out loud. It is so much deeper for an every day ocurence

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, exactly Aspen, there are many different kinds of love

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Like the love we have for parents which (hopefully) isn't the same as that of a spouse

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thanks

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks...CC your comment please?

[08:41] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: The first reading material I read to educate myself about D/s were the two books written by Dosey Easton and Janet Hardy, Topping and Bottoming, give to me by of all people, my Hakomi therapist. In those books they discussed all levels fo BDSM but what they did emphasis is that the lifestyle and things done within it, were ways that it breaks down boundaries so dominant and sub can  achieve a closeness and bonding that transcends what is achieved in most vanilla relationships. 

In my present relationship, I am experiencing what is romance, not just with my Mistress but also with her sl partner and her submissive. I submit to Miss Lauren when Mistress Zati is not there, which is a lot of the time. I spend time with her submissive Shondra who loves to submit to me. But in the this context we have to work to maintain boundaries between what I have as my Mistress's submissive and our other relationships in the family. I had a discussion with her about making special time, when we don't stop what we're doing to

[08:41] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell:  invite Miss Lauren to join us. I asked her to evaluate how important is our time and what we're do with it. I asked if there is instances where what we're doing is important enough to ask Miss Lauren to wait until we are finished. I'm her first really serious submissive in sl and we do have a very romantic relationship, so I know values our time together. That said, I love my family.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: OK thank you CC and Aspen

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Signore Antonelli, per favore

[08:45] Anthony Antonelli: I am a high protocol Dominant. I identify more as a Master but took on the roll of Daddy for the first time with my Sy… because I love her and thats what she needs. For me - I have to have romance in  my relationships. I love love love D/s but am not a big fan of BDSM. That may confuse some so let me try to explain. For me D/s is like an old fashion relationship. Its where a Dominant tries to out sacrifice a submissives submission; its a beautiful dance. To put it bluntly, fucking is easy.. anyone can do that anytime they want in todays day and age.. it takes very little effort. But, finding real friends is difficult; finding a submissive worthy of the effort I put into a D/s relationship is even more rare. So, when I find these people, I work my ass off to keep them… for they are worth it. … Love takes effort and its well worth it! I luv you Sy.. Happy V-Day /done

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Wonderfully said, Signore, molto grazie!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Brianne please, go blondie!

[08:48] Brianne: Listening to you all, I've had a small revelation that you all seem to understand already.  We don't *really* love a *person*.  We love the relationship between people, the meaning of the other person in our life.  It's easier to say that we love a person but it's what goes on between us that defines the love, whether vanilla or D/s.  That's why we can cherish so many variations on that theme. #

[08:48] Tann Stormhaven: bingo

[08:49] Brianne: enough games

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: hmmmm...I'll have to think about that.  Would you say then that people are interchangeable, Brianne?  IT's the relationship, not the person?

[08:50] Brianne: no, the other person is the other end of the bridge, a unique spot, so it can't be interchangeable

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Love is the connection to the other person

[08:50] Brianne: yes!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: and so that bridge is unique to them, but it can be many bridges leading to the same person (me or another)

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Ok so Sir RB removed his C, Sir Upton did You have a comment?

[08:52] Upton O'Goode: It is like we love how that person completes us and how we complete that other person . much like two puzzle pieces. so not interchangeable at all #

[08:52] Brianne: I write object oriented software so i see things as objects and relationships all teh time.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli wants to write a method to get at Brianne's hidden data

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: object PANTIES { string MINIMAL;}

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir Upton!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: I like the analogy of the puzzle pieces

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks to you Brianne

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen please

[08:55] Aspen Diamond: I have a Question to Sir Anthony, I am very confused about what the D/s Baby Girl? I was that I was also a baby girl. In Real I see these women carrying stuff toy's sucking on their thumbs. That is what I see in the different of baby girl with a daddy dom. I am very confused and if someone could help me understand the differences I would really  me Please do. # to answer Master Upton is When I was married that is what people said about my husband and I that we completed each other he was my 100% at that time. I would love to find another man who can complete my 99% to make another 100%.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Not every Babygirl is a Little, Aspen

[08:55] Anthony Antonelli: typing a response

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Those are related but two different things, Sir Anthony's reponse will be clearer

[08:56] Upton O'Goode: Daddy Dom/Babygirl doesn't equate to age play or even childishness.

[08:56] Sy Antonelli: Agrees

[08:56] Tann Stormhaven nods

[08:56] Brianne listens intently

[08:56] Taree: It is an entire topic all its own

[08:57] Aspen Diamond: So it is the littles and not the baby girl. The baby girl is the touching and feeling of each other. Right the Romantic side Right? Smiling

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Let Sir Anthony answer that then we'll move on as I don't want to go on a serious 580 degree tangent into this topic today lol

[08:58] Now playing: Moby - Porcelain

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: As it's a topic better served on its own

[08:58] Aspen Diamond: Please forgive me Vanni

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead please Sir

[08:58] Anthony Antonelli: I cant speak for other DDs. But as I said when I gave my reply… for me, I am very much into D/s and am high protocol. Which means, to me, that I will not enter into any D/s relationships, regardless of how its defined, with out a written dynamic that was negotiated and agreed upon by all parties. We have regular dynamic meetings and run what I always believed to be a typical true D/s house with protocol, rules, punishments, etc… I hope that helps /done

[08:59] Anthony Antonelli: brats need not apply lol

[08:59] Aspen Diamond: Thank you very much Sir Anthony it does clean up a lot for me thank you .

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Sy

[09:00] Sy Antonelli: For me, being a baby girl has nothing to do with wearing pink, sucking a pacifier or carrying a stuffed animal.. although I do have tons of stuffed animals lol.. (giggles) but it just about who I am as a person.. my personality and how I view and see life.  In my D/s relationship, its still very high protocol.  I believe we strive towards TPE with all we do, but its just like any other relationship where personalities effect how we interact with each other on the day to day.  That really doesn't sum it up completely at all lol, but maybe helps? *yes I am not a bratty girl either.. thats a diferent type of personality*

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Right

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sy!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: So I'd like to leave Y/you all with a short story as a final thought on this

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: In Plato's Symposium, the playwright Aristophanes gives a monologue on Love

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: In his story, when humans were created, we were literally bound to another person, we lived back to back with them.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: the Children of the Sun were two men bound

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: the Children of the Earth were two women bound together

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: and The Children of the Moon were a man and woman bound together into one being

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Well humans got all haughty and full of Hubris

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: And so Jupiter split us into two

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: and sent our other to the opposite end of the earth

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: So now we live our lives looking for our other, to put ourselves back together

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: and Love is when we find that person, and can reconnect to them

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: I love that analogy he created, that Love is the desire and the means to be whole

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: "The pain that brings a straight line back to the heart"

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: So however that connection works, it's the connection, that deep love.  It could be vanilla, could be D/s, could be anything

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: but it makes us whole.

[09:07] Peyton Menges: Reasonable analogy, Vanni - thank you for that.

[09:07] Taree: I am whole with him

[09:08] Tann Stormhaven: indeed Vanni well done

[09:08] Taree: Thank you Vanni.  Great topic!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli reads a lot

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for coming, and please remember to send some love to the Sim via the tip jar on the bar