"Master/Slave Dynamic:" April 25, 2021

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ok lettuce go ahead and get started with a discussion that can't be beet.

[08:09] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:09] Brianne tries to save Vanni

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne and I are quite a pear.

[08:10] Brianne: BAH!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: but I digress

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] RB Quinn: STOP STOP!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]" Puns may be given freely.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Over the last couple months, we have been discussing the BDSM acronym

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Bondage/Discipline, Sadism and Masochism, and Dominance/Submission

[08:13] Daelenie McMillan: yes please?

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: As we've had very specific discussions on the types, this and the next couple weeks will be devoted to discussion of *types* of Dominant and Submissive style relationships

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli giggles and gives Dae a noogie

[08:14] Daelenie McMillan: eeps

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Today we will look at the Master/Mistress and Slave relationship, which for the rest of this discussion we will shorten to "M/s"

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: the "M" being any gender

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Now this is one of those points that if you ask ten different people what they think is the difference between D/s and M/s, you're very likely to get ten different answers

[08:16] RB Quinn: .. or more....

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: A while ago I saw an article on if I remember correctly Submissive Guide that started "Allow me to give the 7, 384th answer to this question...."

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: or some odd number

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So I'd like to have a quick polling of the group before we start

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: How many of our great submissives here would self-identify as a "slave?" Please raise your hand if you are comfy doing so.

[08:17] Dijana384 whispers: wb Dee

[08:17] Dijana384 raises hand

[08:18] Iris Seven raises hand

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: don't give a definition, just if you would identify as a slave

[08:18] Vic Crowe raises hand

[08:18] Ballard: Let me add one for Rouge.

[08:18] Dee Wolfe  smiles and kneels back down

[08:18] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ- raises hand

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Cool! :)

[08:18] Peaches Svenska: before coming to xaara, i would have said i was a slave

[08:19] Peaches Svenska: when i was in gor

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And how many of our fine Dominants here would self-identify as a "Master or Mistress" in the M/s style of dominance? If You don't mind self-identifying

[08:19] Sir Jason Oi™: I do

[08:19] Abraham: i do

[08:19] Ballard: I have my  moments

[08:19] Daelenie McMillan hesitantly raises her hand

[08:19] Daelenie McMillan: Sorry, was late slow typing

[08:19] Maverick Broadfoot shakes my head

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: No worries love :P

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: ok Thank Y/you all. So we seem split in the room

[08:20] RB Quinn declines to answer in binary fashion

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli grins

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: An important aspect of this of course is "self-identify"

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: A person may identify as a M/s Master or Mistress or slave and others will say "Oh, that's not how I do it!"

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Which is fine, each relationship and person is unique

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: There are people who may *look* to others as a Master, Mistress or slave in the M/s way of relationship and would never self-identify as such either.

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: so this, like a fine Impressionistic painting, is a matter of perspective.

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli loves Monet btw, but he's not my Master...

[08:23] Brianne: but he has master-pieces.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So let's open the floor to comments...what do Y/you think is the differentiation between the D/s and M/s styles? And again, this is perspective and opinion. We'll be nice to one another :)

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:23] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:24] Candice Svenska: lol

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Try the fish!

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, Master Ballard, You get to start the discussion!

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: ciao, CC!

[08:25] Daelenie McMillan: hugs CC have fun!

[08:25] Vic Crowe: c

[08:26] Ballard: I have never really been fond of this sort of sub labeling (no pun intended) of the relationships.  Yes, slave is a thing.  but in an established,  longterm relationship, it is up to each family to build the relationships in a way that works for us, for each member.  Placing a label  on one as a slave, another as wife, submissive or girlfriend is fraught with peril.  The perils being hurt feeling, accidental denigration of one.

Keep in mind that no one person suits every 'type'.  So I have a set of rules for each  of my girls, they each have a tag in the house that we have made ourselves comfortable with.  While Rouge really is a slave, that means nothing within our dynamic, it's simply a way to talk about us to outsiders.

[08:27] Brianne nods, very interested in Sirs comment

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: I think that fits the paradigm I was just mentioning, Master Ballard, that each person approaches this differently, and what "sub" or "slave" means is a sort of nebulous thing.

[08:28] Ballard: All that said I do love to treat as sub like a slave now and then.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Aha!

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: So perhaps sub/slaves are roles that can be taken on dynamically

[08:30] RB Quinn: As can Master/Dominant.....

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli prepares a sociological lecture on this using Symbolic Interaction and Exchange Theory.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: "Please turn to page 36..."

[08:30] Maverick Broadfoot: depending on moods, phases of the moon

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Oh wait...sorry.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Ballard!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: Vic, you are up and can share from the S side!

[08:31] Vic Crowe: This is coming from my rl life as a slave, to me the only difference is that slaves have total power exchange and not only submit to the individual but to obedience as well.  Service is very important to us.  All the negotiations is done upfront and often takes a lot of time to set the dynamic up and there is no ongoing negoations after that other than changes the Master wishes in the house. Slaves in rl do not run around talking in third party lol nor are we mythical like some of the fictional sims here depict slaves.  Slaves are not just used by anyone, unless that is something they want and negotiated that way.  Other Masters do not touch another slave without their owners consent or that of the slave if they are unowend.  How Masters talk to slaves is same as subs, it has nothing to do with how we are treated but rather the power exchange itself. Just my opinion from my rl experience of a couple decades lol!  Done.

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Well what passes in SL for this is sort of a mutation of a mutation, some of it came from RL Gorean lifestylers that went to Internet Relay Chat in the 90s, and then came to places like SL. So some of the "this is what makes a slave" comes from that.

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: I don't mean this is a downing on Gor, everyone can have their opinion on it

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: But the M/s viewpoint here does have quite a bit of that RL lifestyler stuff from the 90s.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: So Vic, may I ask you a follow up?

[08:34] Vic Crowe: of course Vanni : )

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Let's imagine that in your First Life M/s relationship, you had a change in your body that didn't allow you to be hit with anything harder than a hand any longer (I know, this sounds like hell, but please bear with me...)

[08:36] Ballard: Tragedy!

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: As you said you are not allowed any negotiation, would you have to wait until your Master decided that He would no longer beat you? You couldn't say "Master, we need to talk about this, I really need a change?"

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: (And I do realize a good M type would deal with the medical needs of the charge here, I'm being hypothetical)

[08:38] Vic Crowe: smiles excellent question! Part of my life is total transparency to my Master, he would know of my limitations and my bodys ability.  My boundaries are already known to him pre-dynamic and any changes during dyanic are known and adjsuted by him.  Just because a Master can cross a boundary, doesnt mean they will.  Additionally a Master does not want to hurt their toy.  In RL for example I have arthritis, I have limitations, my Master knows this and adjusts kink time to accomodate that and I do not kneel rl as I cant, I do other ways of greeting.  I hope that clarifies

[08:38] Vic Crowe: Done : )

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Very much, thanks Vic :)

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Again, I was just using that as a thought experiment.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks!

[08:39] Vic Crowe: most welcome : )

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sir Jason please

[08:39] Sir Jason Oi™: I think the main differences between D/s and M/s is Power Exchange vs. Total Power Exchange, the number of times and how often negotiations can typically happen typically a slave will negotiate at the beginning of the M/s dynamic and usually that's the end of it while a submissive can have ongoing negotiations, and submissives choose on a per command basis to submit and obey where as a slave ordinarily does not.#

[08:39] Trasee Darque has come online

[08:40] Candice Svenska: well said :)

[08:40] Doxie Sixpence raises an eyebrow

[08:40] Imogen Veѕpolι has gone offline

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: That's a good comment, Sir Jason and an opinion that seems pretty well held in the community.

[08:40] Maverick Broadfoot nods

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: May I ask You a follow up as well, please?

[08:41] Sir Jason Oi™: Certainly

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: As I'd like a Dominant's view on this.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I'm a Sociologist, and I'm also very influenced by Buddhist thought. I recognize that humans are dynamic and change a lot.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I'm not the same person I was a year ago.

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: never mind ten years ago

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: In Your view, how does a M/s relationship deal with the fact that a slave is going to change at some point in their lives if they aren't going to be negotiating any further past the original set up of the M/s relationship?

[08:43] Sir Jason Oi™: Any renegotiations would be done on an as-needed basis or on the Master's time table. #

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed Sir! I have always seen it as this, if I were Your slave in theory, and I wanted an alteration of our terms, I would have to *ask* you about it, and You would get the final say of yes or no. On the other hand, a sub can call a "time out" and some kind of negotiation is expected to happen.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: That's my view, I do not know if that is concurrent to what O/others think.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You, Sir! :)

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: I love how we hash out discussion here

[08:45] Sir Jason Oi™: Of course

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Peaches.

[08:46] Peaches Svenska: I agree with the first part of what Sir Jason said about the slave but NOT about the second half, that, if i understood correctly says that a submissive decides whether or not to obey with each command given..that is so very NOT true..as long as my limits, that are pre negotiated so to speak , i would not hesitate..deciding IF i was going to obey would not even enter my mind, i would simply obey instantly

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, thank you for that, Sir Jason do You have a follow up comment?

[08:47] Sir Jason Oi™: Only that in my original comment I said "typically" and that may not hold true for everyone.

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, thank Y/you both for comments!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Iris who has been waiting patiently

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Please go ahead!

[08:49] Iris Seven: ok so I sort of have a lot to say on this subject and I hope it's not unhelpful LOL...I consider myself a slave. My submission to my Master is as total as he desires it to be. Yet there is constant negotiation between us as a matter of course. We don't have porch time formally because we are so comfortable speaking to one another we don't need to flag time in that way. We just talk and get on with our lives. As such, many would call me not a slave. I think some of us tend to glorify certain terms and assign a hierarchy to them. Thoughts like "my submission is more total than yours so that makes me higher than you." Nonsense if you ask me. As for an assertion that a submissive chooses to obey or not on a case by case basis, I have to assert that is not at all my experience either. I assume I will obey any command by my Master or any dominant UNLESS I have a specific valid reason not to, such as a physical limitation or a personal boundary#

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: I think sometimes humans tend to forget that "I wouldn't do it that way" is not the same as "You're wrong for doing it that way."

[08:51] Peaches Svenska: perfectly said Iris..thank you

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: If you self-id as a slave, and Sir Zihm says "Iris is my slave," then you're a slave, regardless of what anyone else thinks about how you "do it."

[08:52] Peaches Svenska: exactly

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Iris, and all comments are welcome and give us insight :)

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:53] Iris Seven: :)

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: We go back to Master Ballard, please.

[08:53] Ballard: This whole issue about negotiations, once and forever is problematic.  And here is where a slave is no different than any other submissive.  A slave wants me to command her.  They want to be controlled, taken, used and enjoyed.  They want to be made to serve, and in doing so they gain great satisfaction.  All of that is just as true for any submissive.  So let me ask you all.  That said,  in what way is a slave any different from any other submissive?  I have my own ideas, but I'd  like to hear it before I say it.

[08:54] Ballard: so I do have a follow up statement.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Anyone who wishes may give a comment minus a "C"

[08:54] Maverick Broadfoot: clairvoyance?

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: go right ahead and give Y/your (please short) view on this.

[08:54] Teddy: i think my C to peaches says my answer?

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: then go ahead Teddy

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: as well as A/anyone else

[08:55] Teddy: i was thinking maybe its down to perception of thought.causeeven tho we feel like our actions an reactions are instaneous.it isnt that we dont make choices.its just that the speed an efficiency of thought process is so fast that we dont notice them.we dont look back to analyze how it went from A to B to C.cause of comfort level in what we did.maybe the feeling of obeying instantlyis like. more to do with comfort in obeyingo the master/mistress obeying for? maybe less consideration for own wants is how a slave is different?

[08:56] Ballard: Vanni,May I conclude my thought?

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Does anyone else have a comment/answer to Master Ballard?

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: I don't see any typing in the bubbles so I don't think there are other answers?

[08:57] Ballard: To my old style  mind, a slave is never restricted.  While they may retain consent, and require negotiations, a slave is eager to sever the community, and live within the community as an open and available resource to serve.  A submissive might be every bit as submissive as any slave, TPE and all, but monogamous, or in a closed family situation.  If I see a slave tag I will still ask consent, because I always ask consent, yet assume they are open to service.  But a submissive tag means generally to be very careful how they are approached, assume nothing.  I realize that this definition is at odds with current conventional wisdom. #

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I think that's a very valid way to look at it, Master Ballard!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please, Sir Jason

[09:00] Sir Jason Oi™: Openness or poly isn't a factor in either submissive or slave. A slave isn't more available to be used by the community than a submissive would be. #

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: I *think* Master Ballard may be referring to Community Slaves here?

[09:01] Ballard: Actually not really.  This is my 20th century idea of a slave, as compared to the newer 21st century idea of any TPE is a slave.

[09:01] Ballard: Things have changed

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Aha

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: :)

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Ok thank Y/you all for that!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: We need to move on to get everyone in

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Doxie, your comment please

[09:03] Doxie Sixpence: Perhaps i have slave-like tendencies as i would rarely think to disobey my Master. Once i commit then i have made my choice to obey. But when i first encountered BDSM Master Lucian asked me whether i am a slave or a submissive. He had to then tell me how he defined those two roles before i could answer. I have stayed with submissive as, ultimately i reserve that right to say "no" even if i do not expect to have to use it. #

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: I think even a slave can say "no" if what the M type is about to do is out of the limits that were at least originally negotiated, or at least "yellow" and talk about it.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: A BDSM slave isn't chattel, after all :)

[09:04] Peaches Svenska: exactly

[09:04] Candice Svenska: totally

[09:04] Peaches Svenska: limits is the decision maker

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: That was a very good comment Doxie, and I think you really have a keen insight into it

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks!

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne you have a question please

[09:05] Brianne: I live for submission and objectification, and I obey first and sincerely, but don't think of myself as a slave because I don't feel like 'only property' even though I feel owned.  Is there any clean definition of what a slave is at all?  (I think that Sir Ballard is on to something.  The close inspection caused by labeling is a rat hole)  It's kinda frustrating because I would like to communicate effectively.  If it takes me an hour to describe my role to someone, that's a major turn-off.  (Of course, maybe my floating title usually does the work for me. hee.)  #

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Due to time, Brianne, I will answer that by saying "no, there is no clean answer," As we've seen, everyone has a different view on this, and as long as everything is consensual and happy, really outside opinions aren't going to do much.

[09:06] Iris Seven: r to Brianne

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Iris

[09:07] Brianne: so that means the word 'slave' is useless in a practical way

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Between contexts, probably

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: in a particular relationship, it is very important

[09:07] Iris Seven: I'm not only property either but I am property...being treasured as such doesn't diminish the essential fact that I am#

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: I"m going to promote Aspen as she needs to go soon, then Teddy have ready whatever you want to say.

[09:10] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vannie,

A D/s relationship Like Master Ballard expressed about saying what the S means in his house. It is up to the Dominate to make that discussion because he and only he can make that final naming each girl who fits it..Or what his expectation are for each girl..

 For the Power exchange of a True Real World Slave as Vic decided  is very true. I have seen this with the couple who got me into SL.. Total Power Exchange to me means that you first negotiate at the very start of your D/s relationship. You and your Dom/Master would have set time to revisit the negotiation. as the change to both of you. It does happen if for example you Dom/Mistress gets sick or if you get sick. You have to be KINDA flexible. Again Master Ballard is right on with his comment about the slave needing that control. I was at a REAL LIFe munch last night and we were discussing the very same thing. As a slave slave I do need that control. Being a Dommie during the day with school and the kids and I have to be a Dommie to

[09:10] Aspen Diamond:  them I am very tired when I get home. Wishing to have that Dom here for me in real to take full control of me would be a blessing to me. 

Master Ballard, I do agree with totally because maybe it is our age. We are very old style of thinking.

With the new 21st thinking to TPE of a slave/sub even you have to try to explain.

 

I have to look at myself as a slave when I do things and then seeing my submissive side and to mix them together. That is me.

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Aspen, I always like how you get your First Life experience connected to SL

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Good comment! :)

[09:12] Aspen Diamond: Thank you

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: OK Teddy, you're up, get it all out

[09:12] Teddy: idk how to identify as slave or sub.cause i just think in puppy. an i say sub if asked.cause idk what else to say. people say slaves dont say no (mostly). an always obey. rarely think about something somone tells me to do.i just do it.because puppies should do that for humans. an i do that.so should i say slave?but i say puppy. but can you be both? idk. i get confused. ithink maybe i dont want to identify as either of them because its too confusing.but i have to because being puppy doesnt make sense to lots of people #

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Well Teddy, as I said, if you id as a slave, and your Dominant says you're a slave, then you're a slave.

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Period. Full stop.

[09:14] Teddy: whatwould you do if you felt one way an your dominant said you was another way?

[09:14] Ballard: Negotiate

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: We can all disagree on how *we* would roll with it, but really, no one is in a position to tell others how they roll. And I think that is something we exemplify here at Xaara. Tolerance of how others roll.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Right, negotiate and communicate about it

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Teddy!

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Pure, do you have a comment?

[09:16] Pure: Personally, WHO I am with my Master is up to us. Every relationship is different. There is no "pattern" or "rules" for building a relationship. I am submissive because I know who I am and not because I have a "title". We have negotiated and we "renegotiate" according to the needs of each person over the course of daily life (RL or SL). Nothing complicated. Once again, it is communication and openness that allows us to live harmoniously. We are not defined by a role. Master highly appreciates my submission and my obedience. I belong to him, but I am not a "property". And I am fully aware that I need a steady hand to guide me. Not from someone who is going to want to "define" who I am and say to me: "you are going to be my slave"

[09:16] RB Quinn: Well said, Pure!!!

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: That totally makes sense, Pure.

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Good point, thanks Pure :)

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Sultry, you are up please

[09:17] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ-: Thank you, Vanni!  Of course, I agree with Iris as usual, and many others. I have recently done quite a bit of changing over the last few months and I am finding I am identifying more as a slave.  However, my Master has also identified me as submissive and small part babygirl (although this I keep to a teeny tiny part).  I am not going to identify myself in comparison to others as I may have done before.  I am serving my Master in any or all of these ways as he and I interact.  I know I will continue to grow the longer I serve him, and the more my wants and needs change.  I think negotiations will always be a factor in any dynamic.#

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Well said!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Again, my personal take is, the more one slides toward "Slave" the more they are dependent on the will of the Dominant to decide how the relationship will go.

[09:19] Aspen Diamond: Vety Ture Vanni Smiling

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: But I also think any M-type worth their salt will always take into consideration the needs and changes in their slave, even if They are the ones making the decisions how thing will go

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: And TRUST is highly implicit here

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: A slave has to TRUST their M-Type will always do right by them

[09:20] Dijana384: completely Vanni

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sultry!

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard again please!

[09:20] Ballard: Vanni, this is a great discussion every week.  It reaches many time zones and regions.  We almost waylays run over.  I would like to suggest that you start to schedule this for at least 90 minutes, if not 120.  Who wants to be rushed? it's Sunday!

 ((Disclaimer:  This suggestion came from Peaches and Candice, and I agree)) #

[09:21] Sher: Agrees with Ballard

[09:21] Pure: Agree!

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: We seem to go to almost 9:30 every day lol

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: We can schedule it for 90 mins and anyone that needs to leave can always just head out

[09:22] RB Quinn: Many discussions I find myself wishing it was over.  Vanni's I feel the exact opposite.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Teddy, go ahead

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: then I have a final point to make

[09:22] Teddy: i was told that the tel of like how good a dominant is.is how they control themselves an look the other when theygot full control over them.so like. they can do anything within limit.but they chooseto consider things.even tho they dont have to?#

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: I think a good Dominant of any sort does that Teddy!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: ok so I have an example

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: I'd like to see what Y/you think of it

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: A Domme in my RL community, Miss D, has a slave named Mo/e, who is gender fluid, so at times is Mo and at times is Moe, if that makes snese

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Mo/e is her slave.

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: But Miss D says that Mo/e is NOT submissive at all

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: I couldn't grok that at all so asked Miss D about it

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: And she said "A slave just wants to serve. Mo/e gets off coming to my place and doing my laundry and cooking food for me and cleaning."

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: But Miss D said that in other areas, Mo/e has no desire for any control at all

[09:25] Dijana384: interesting

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, Mo/e has a girl that they have a kinky love affair going with, and acts as a Dominant toward

[09:26] Vanni Cannoli: I thought that was an interesting take on it

[09:26] Dijana384: yes very

[09:26] Vanni Cannoli: Slaves just want to serve

[09:26] RB Quinn shouts: Scorecard!  Can't tell yer M's from D's and s's from s's without one.. Scorecard!!!!

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: Mo/e just wants to come over and serve Miss D.

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: That's it, that's how they define Mo/es "slavery"

[09:27] Dijana384: a special dynamic

[09:27] Pure: more a servant than a slave

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: Mo/e will do anything Miss D demands about serving her. But Miss D has zero control over any other aspects of their life.

[09:27] RB Quinn: Interesting, but hardly 'typical'

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: I just offer it as an example of how open ended this can be

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway thank Y/you all for coming today!

"Submission:" April 18, 2021

 

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: ok so last week we went over Dominance and how Dom/mes practice their "craft" as it were, and what gets Their gears going

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: This week we move to the "s" in D/s, submission

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: now before I open the floor, I'd like to repeat something we've said several times here, there is a difference between Tops and Bottoms, which applies to this discussion

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: A Top is a person that takes charge in a *scene*, but that doesn't necessarily mean that person in a real Dominant person

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: However, it's quite true that in general, Dominants are Tops, they just expand their Topping to more areas of life

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: So with that in mind, remember that a Bottom is not by definition a Submissive

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: A Bottom takes that role in a scene, but then will probably go back to neutral/"normal" when it is over

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So while a submissive will be a bottom in a scene, usually, that doesn't mean that all Bottoms are s-types

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So like Dominance, Submission is something *more*

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: And that's what we are here to discuss today, what is that *more* that differentiates the Bottom from the S-Type?

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Why do subs crave that, and what gets Dom/mes all fired up about it?

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So ....let's tawk!

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: er Talk

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: What do Y/you see a sub as, especially as different from a Bottom?

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Lypi, you have the floor when you are done to start us off!

[08:21] Lypiphera: For myself, it's a desire to please my Dominant in all aspects of life, not just during a scene. I mean yes, I'm a masochist but it goes beyond beating me - it's also mental.

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: So the acts to please Him are not just in the scene, but in most or all of the aspects of your relationship out of the said beating?

[08:22] Lypiphera: "play" is just one aspect, not the end game

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: For the Bottom, that is the end game, and there's nothing wrong with that at all

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Most people in the RL scene are Bottoms

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: But the sub is, as you said more.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Great! Thanks for starting us off Lypi!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason, You are up please!

[08:24] Sir Jason Oi™: A bottom is someone in a scene that has things done to them they can be a Dominant in control of what is going on during that scene. A submissive is one that takes the bottom role in a power exchange dynamic, they submit to the authority and control of another person, they are humble and compliant(according to Merriam-Webster).#

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Oh good, Sir, I don't have to ding You for plagiarism :P

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[08:24] Sir Jason Oi™: LOL

[08:25] Sir Jason Oi™: I cite my references

[08:25] Ballard: I'd pay good money to watch Vanni ding Jason.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, I agree, the Bottom allows control in the scene, the Sub allows control in negotiated areas of their life

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Well now, just go to http://vannidings.com and pay $1.95 a minute

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: First five minutes of ding donging free!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir Jason for that!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You are up please!

[08:26] Ballard: I find this topic to be very interesting.  I will likely listen more than I speak, because this topic is a chance for me to learn, more than to expound.  Yet I will expound briefly.

My family is quite a varied group.  While each of Peaches, Candice and Rouge are very different, they all have some common themes.  All are  intelligent, can be assertive, and have a strong self of themselves.  Submission is a lifestyle, a relationship structure.  In no way is a submissive weak.  They want rules, order, protocols and rituals.  They need me to lead.  I also  listen.  #

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli cheers

[08:27] Dijana384: yes!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: That of course doesn't invalidate the s-type that really is extremely dependent on their Dominant to direct them in most if not all areas. If that's how things roll for them, it's great.

[08:28] Ballard: It may seem counter intuitive, but dependence need not be weakness.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: for example, we usually frown on "Fin-Dom/me" stuff

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: But there are some s-types that *need* a Dominant person directing their finances

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: not in an exploitation sort of way, but a caretaking way

[08:29] Dijana384: nods

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: "No, you can't buy that shit, you have to ask me first before you buy anything"

[08:30] Dijana384: lol

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: But You're right Master Ballard, most Dominants like subs that can act on their own once given the structures

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: thank You!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: We go to my sidekick here and cute blondie, Brianne. Go ahead!

[08:32] Brianne: ty, chief...

[08:32] Brianne: The joy of being a submissive, for me, comes from being the follower that compliments my dominant leader, and then adding in twists (within my boundaries, which I need and love) that let them know how much I cherish them and want to bring them ecstasy and fulfillment  If I accomplish that, if I can bring real happiness, I feel really good about my role.  More than a Bottom, I dedicate myself to that, submitting to that purpose and to the authority of my Dominant, even when they're not around.  Over time, I'm getting better at that. #

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli smiles big

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Bingo, Brianne!

[08:32] Dijana384: love that Brianne

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: That was really well said, Brianne, and I think gets to the heart of Submission

[08:34] Brianne: thanks Vanni.  That means a lot to me.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Iris, you are up please!

[08:35] Iris Seven: For me one thing I crave from my submission is a sense of orderliness. One thing I really want from my dominant is structure, boundaries, and clear rules. This gives me a safe field of operation, a clear sense of how to behave and what to do. It helps give me clarity and a sense of calm and purpose in the midst of life which can be so full of confusions and mixed signals. This is where I find that my submission is about far more than kink play. Also, having a dominant gives me a focus outside of myself. I find I'm happiest and the most productive when I'm not caught up in my own concerns. It actually allows me to deal better when I have to attend to things, knowing I will have that break to make it not at all about me, but about Master and his pleasure#

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[08:36] Brianne: oh, that is an excellent point about being outside of yourself.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: One thing that a lot of S-Types say is that having a Dominant gives them that clarity and direction, Iris. And that they feel rather "unmoored" when they don't have it.

[08:37] Iris Seven: mhm

[08:37] Dijana384: agrees

[08:37] Dee Wolfe  nods in agreement

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: So you hit the nail on the head!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Great comment! Thanks so much :)

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Like I was just saying with some subs that need a Dominant to direct their finances....a lot of S-Types just need the structure that Master Ballard was saying He provides His girls

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: A pure Bottom doesn't need that in day to day life, they just need some Sadist with a flogger to beat them silly

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: and then go to McDs after lol

[08:39] Iris Seven: lol

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's move on, thanks again Iris!

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Vanessa you are up please

[08:40] Vanessa Jane: Sorry - this is long - apologies.  For me submission is deeper than a sexual/kink thing, great as that is.  It is how I relate to people, to relationships - and very especially with my Master.  Its a need to please, to serve, to make life easier for others, to care for others, to leave 'myself' behind more and focus outward on others.  Putting others before myself, at least to a degree (not unhealthily so).  I can't speak for other subs but for me there is almost a spiritual aspect to this, a deeper need and drive.

I am a very strong person, with capacity to lead, but it is also a need not to have to be the strong one, to be able to feel the safe harbour of a Dominant, allowing me 'time off' from that.  For my mind to be able to 'still' at times in his care and control.  So that is another aspect for me.  We are all different so I can only speak for me and my submissive nature.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I've spoken a number of times about my RL friend that manages a Starbucks and is a 24/7 slave to her Master, and that's exactly what she says...time with Master recharges her

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: She doesn't have to be in charge anymore, she can just let go

[08:41] Lypiphera: mmhmm

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent, great point, thanks Vanessa!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Jescha has a question

[08:42] Jescha: Vanessa. I love that. Thank you!

And Thank you Vanni

I want to comment that I disagree that dependence is n opposition to strength. There are many different kinds of strength, and I find that submission is  a really potent form. Surrender is not for the faint o heart.

Please say more?  abut bottoms RL?  why do you say that?   I have no rl experience....

I want to say that the difference between me and a bottom is that a bottom plays at submission, as I might go out dancing.  For me submission is in by bones  it is in every breath I take, my very thinking, from rising to going to bed at night.

done

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: I don't want to say, Jescha that a bottom "plays" at submission, that sounds like they're "not real".

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: A Bottom has different needs than a Sub

[08:43] Rachel Reid nods

[08:43] Ⲋⲓⲅ Ⲟⲅⲓⲟⲛ: I agree

[08:43] Jescha nods  Thank you Vanni

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The Bottom wants the S/M or B/D type of play, but doesn't have the needs to be directed out of the scene

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: and Tops are very happy to deliver that

[08:44] Rachel Reid: Exactly

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The sub *may* want BDSM play, or not.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Some S-Types are adverse to BDSM play, they just want to serve someone and be directed

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: So it's really a matter of degree of desire for control and direction

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: And the inner needs

[08:45] Lypiphera: mmhmm

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: I like beating the shit out of a Bottom, but I have no desire to direct them out of a scene

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, I'd prob make them dinner after the beating lol

[08:46] Brianne: beat me, feed me.

[08:46] Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: but that's a good question and it does bear explanation, so thank you for that

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:46] harry: i find Miss having me on the leash gives me a strong sense of belonging to Her. i actually find it a comforting experience, belonging to her. #

[08:47] Iris Seven: well said, Harry

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: S-types, please raise your hand if you agree with what Harry just said

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli raises my hand for sure

[08:47] Lypiphera raises hand

[08:47] Iris Seven: woot definitely

[08:47] Brianne hand shoots up!

[08:47] Vanessa Jane: raises hand

[08:47] Dee Wolfe  raises her hand

[08:47] Dijana384: raises hand

[08:47] harry raises his hand, smiking at his Miss

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Iris

[08:48] ღ Pandora  ღ: raises my hand

[08:48] Jescha: raises my hand

[08:48] Aspen Diamond: Me

[08:48] Daelenie McMillan: raises her hand

[08:48] Iris Seven: that sense of belonging goes hand in hand with the stress relief I was talking about earlier. Having that place where I feel at home also helps me make sense of the world around me#

[08:48] Rachel Reid Raises my hand way up

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly Iris!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: So seems you are in good company, Harry!

[08:49] Aspen Diamond: I feel the feeling of warmth Harry

[08:49] harry smiles, tank you Vanni, glad others also feel it

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Harry!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen you are up please

[08:50] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni,

When I first really stared in this life style I always gave and treated all males with respect. I would call them Sirs.

When I started ((Let's say going to bed with them)) I really did not know in my early 20's if I was a bottom, or a top, or a switch. I had no understanding at that time. When I started reading like " John Norman, The Story of O" I found my self identifying as a sub.

Listening to Master Ballard, I am like his subs. I am intelligent or I would not have been in the jobs as a giver. I can be very assertive when need to be. I also have a strong self worth of myself. " Please ask Master Gunner. " Giggling. But I am missing that Order, Rules, the Structure from a Dom or in a scene with a Top who knows. I also needs the protocols and rituals need to be lead.

Since I am single, Yes, I need to be both sub and dom to myself in the Real World. Having SL and happy I found it has taught me many lessons and still learning them. Trying to find groups in the Real World that is BDSM with

[08:50] Aspen Diamond:  D/s groups are very hard in my area. I am working on that. 

In Real World I am a S-Tupe having a Dom to guild me. But crave for that Dom to take the control that I really need. Varessa you are right about that submission is deeper than sexual/kinky things. That is a plus if it is. I get tired of a Dom saying what and how do you want to set the scene. If that Dom knows you and have really take note of your preference list then they have the idea. Now I have some scenes I would love to play out don't get me wrong. But at times the bottoms wants that Dom to take full control of the scene. Harry, I love when Master Gunnar puts me on my leash with the same melting heart.

Thank you and I might add more. Smiling #

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli hands Aspen her Pulitzer Prize for writing

[08:52] Aspen Diamond: OMG thank you Vanni giggling

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli grins and winks

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Lots of good stuff there!

[08:53] Aspen Diamond: I have tears now rolling down my cheeks. Thank you #

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: A friend of mine has something in her profile that says (paraphrasing) "I come not to control the world and serve myself, but to serve the world and control myself."

[08:53] Dijana384: nice!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Sultry you are up please!

[08:54] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ-: I agree with Iris!  And so many other great comments! For the last few months I have discovered that it is the structure, rules, and set boundaries that have centered me.  I gain the most pleasure from serving my Master and seeing to his needs first.  But I also have learned that I don't have to lose myself in the process.  I can turn to my Master for strength when I need it, or provide it if necessary.#

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly!

[08:55] Sir Jason Oi™: Provide it if necessary!

[08:55] Ballard: If you lose yourself, then you diminish your gift.

[08:56] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ- nods

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Really well said, Sultry!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I've said many times, the quality of this discussion is in the august group that comes here. Once again, Y/you all shine

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sultry!

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You are up again, please!

[08:57] Ballard: Just a note -  a bottom is not always kinky, or wanting S&M.  We often confuse BDSM and D/s.  While they do tend to overlap within people, they are really quite different.  Often a bottom wants to have a break from being in control and just enjoy some good old rough sex, perhaps light bondage.  My specialty: http://roughsexwithballard.com/Applyhere   ((just kidding!))

#

[08:57] Mirella Dallagio has come online

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: LOLOL!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I do know how to make Forms if You need one, Sir....

[08:58] Ballard: But the comment is serious

[08:58] Ballard: Joke notwithstanding

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Not every s-type is drawn to acts of BDSM

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Just as most Bottoms are not really interested in "service" out of the scene

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Actually, I found over the years at my RL club how to subtly tell the difference between a Bottom and a Sub there

[08:59] Arella: Tc Jescha

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: The Bottom will come up and ask "So, are you interested in a scene?" and then wants to negotiate it

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: A sub on the other hand will come up and say something like "Can I get you anything? How are you doing tonight? If you need any service, please let me know. May I please sit here with you?" etc

[09:01] Brianne nods

[09:01] Sir Jason Oi™ nods

[09:01] Dijana384: agrees

[09:01] Rachel Reid nods a lot

[09:01] Ⲋⲓⲅ Ⲟⲅⲓⲟⲛ: indeed

[09:01] Arella: Bingo

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Again, I'm not knocking Bottoms in the least here

[09:01] Dijana384: mmhmm just different!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: But it's a subtle way to tell the type of person, and where their interests lie

[09:01] Brianne: Ha!  "knocking bottoms"  Sounds like your Saturday night.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[09:02] Brianne: *laughs*

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Rachel, you are up please

[09:02] Rachel Reid: Thank you Vanni! To sort of go back to Jescha’s questions, I think it’s important to remember that labels such as “Top” and “Bottom” are defining sexual roles and not much else. For example, my rl spouse is definitely interested in finding more opportunities to explore being a bottom in bed, but they’re very, very much a dominant personality type. They wouldn’t necessarily like it if I tried to order their food for them if we were at a restaurant, whereas they know that that’s something their subby wifey (me) absolutely loves.

Personally, I’m finding that it’s a huge turn on for me when a dominant personality is so potent and secure and sexually curious that they’re open to exploring different aspects of their sexuality.#

[09:03] Daelenie McMillan: omg *marks her calendar*

[09:03] M73 nods at Rachels words

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Rachel!

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: I'll just add that "Top" and "Bottom" don't have to be sexual, they really denote in our case pure BDSM roles. I have had a lot of scenes at the club, mostly as a Top, sometimes as a Bottom, and it's really not sexual

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: But the roles can certainly be sexual as well

[09:05] Rachel Reid: Very good point Vanni thank you for that!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please Aspen

[09:14] Aspen Diamond: A gift  of my self was lost before Roissy Vd'O and I found it here at Xaara in the few months I have been here. Now I have gifts to spare with a good heart again about re-finding myself. Master Smiling with the help of all of you from this room and the Whole Sim of helper here..

I was not going to say anything about Gor. But!! everybody has their own experiences in Gor. Master Ballard class is a great one to start out with. Thank you Master Ballard for that class. I am half and half that is Half Gorean and Half BDSM. I am making that turn to the right to BDSM. To become more BDSM in my life now.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Unless something is abuse, our motto is "you go ahead"

[09:14] Brianne almost went with 'finger lickin' good ' but that was taken.

[09:14] Ballard: I am happy to hear that the class helped you.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Miss M73, you have the final comment for today!

[09:16] Aspen Diamond: Smiling

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: I think!

[09:16] M73: Oh wow!

[09:16] M73: I believe it is very sensible that a Dominant takes the submissive side occasionally. It is useful to learn how it feels, and I believe it can make one a better Top and a better Dominant. Also, it is great for teaching.

I'd like to emphasize that switching does NOT mean to invalidate one's Dom/me card. It actually means you are so grounded that you can afford to play the submissive role for a bit.

[09:16] M73: I've just been through intense training as a Pony

[09:17] M73: including being locked up etc for a couple of months

[09:17] M73: and it really helped me become a better Trainer,

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: 100..no 110% agreed Miss

[09:17] M73: because I KNOW how it feels to be on the other side of the leash.

[09:17] M73: DONE!

[09:17] Dijana384: nods

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: There are plenty of people that are in general Dominant in their personality who LOVE taking on a Bottom role in a scene

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Just as taking a Top role doesn't mean that a person isn't a Submissive in general

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops at my RL club is also a slave to a Mistress

[09:18] Dijana384: very true Vanni

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Next week we will start a look at some D/s relationships, starting with ... wait for it...M/s!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: The Master/Slave relationship

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: how it differs from D/s in general

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: so be here!

[09:19] Ⲋⲓⲅ Ⲟⲅⲓⲟⲛ: awesome discussion, great comments and questions all around.  Thank you A/all for the wonderful thoughts and insight.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: And please drop some love in the tip jar on the bar to keep our happy home going!

"Domination:" April 11, 2021

[2021/04/11 08:11]  Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[2021/04/11 08:11]  Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[2021/04/11 08:12]  Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[2021/04/11 08:12]  Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[2021/04/11 08:12]  Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[2021/04/11 08:13]  Vanni Cannoli: I hope those observing Easter or Passover, either religiously, time with family and friends, or both, found great meaning and good time with them.

[2021/04/11 08:13]  Vanni Cannoli: Now we are back to talk about more perverted topics!

[2021/04/11 08:14]  Brianne: finally!

[2021/04/11 08:14]  Vanni Cannoli: So in the past few weeks we talked about Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism

[2021/04/11 08:14]  Vanni Cannoli: we now go to the middle of the BDSM acronym and talk about D/s, Dominance and Submission

[2021/04/11 08:15]  Vanni Cannoli: So here is Vanni's game plan

[2021/04/11 08:16]  Vanni Cannoli: Today I would like to have a general discussion on Domination itself....what it is, how Dominants view the world, how both day to day and long term goals are seen and worked through via dominance, and what submissive types find attractive about it.

[2021/04/11 08:16]  Vanni Cannoli: Then I'd like to the same thing about submission next week

[2021/04/11 08:17]  Vanni Cannoli: then spend the next 2-3 weeks talking about various types of Doms and subs and their connections to each other

[2021/04/11 08:17]  Vanni Cannoli: This is what Vanni calls "making her lesson plans" for the coming weeks

[2021/04/11 08:17]  Vanni Cannoli: recognizing that it can all go to hell if the "class" goes in other directions :P

[2021/04/11 08:17]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ:  wonders if she is a teacher RL

[2021/04/11 08:18]  Vanni Cannoli: Maybe, Sir.... *grins*

[2021/04/11 08:18]  Ballard: with tenure

[2021/04/11 08:18]  Vanni Cannoli: and department chair

[2021/04/11 08:18]  Becky Summerland: and department desk, and door

[2021/04/11 08:18]  Vanni Cannoli: hey now!

[2021/04/11 08:19]  Vanni Cannoli: Don't give away my secrets Miss Becky...besides..that was a couple weeks ago when we talked about "objectification"

[2021/04/11 08:19]  Ballard: One might say Vanni does 'top' work at times.

[2021/04/11 08:20]  Vanni Cannoli: So first of all, what is Domination? Is it an attitude, is it a role, is it a psychology and sociology? A combination and maybe more?

[2021/04/11 08:20]  Vanni Cannoli: When looked at either makes our Dominants here "Dominant," or what sub-types see as "Dominant" what is it? How would it be described?

[2021/04/11 08:21]  Vanni Cannoli: Miss Lisa, you get to start the discussion today, please!

[2021/04/11 08:21]  Lisa Summerland: Dominance is a way of life. Not just something you do, it is what you are inside. It is your essence, soul, spirit, mind, emotions and feelings. It is what you are and do when no one is watching as well as when crowds are watching. It means holding yourself to a higher standard that pays rich rewards in your personal relationships. It is being assertive. Dominance is taking and being responsible for the well-being and proper training, guidance, and discipline of their subs. It is both Love and Pleasure and a constant joy.

[2021/04/11 08:21]  RB Quinn: Well, that's a wrap, then

[2021/04/11 08:21]  Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[2021/04/11 08:21]  Vanni Cannoli: Indeed, play party at Blackstone in five minutes

[2021/04/11 08:21]  Lisa Summerland: Yes!

[2021/04/11 08:22]  Ballard:  turns to RB.  "Wait, man.  Are we going to talk about feelings?"

[2021/04/11 08:22]  Vanni Cannoli: LOL!

[2021/04/11 08:22]  RB Quinn: hahahaha!!!!

[2021/04/11 08:22]  Vanni Cannoli: Seriously, that was really well said, Miss Lisa!

[2021/04/11 08:22]  Vanni Cannoli: You definitely feel that Dominance is something within, coming from a deep set of feelings,needs and drives.

[2021/04/11 08:23]  Vanessa Jane: q @ Miss Lisa

[2021/04/11 08:23]  Vanni Cannoli: As that's a direct question, we will move that up, so go ahead Vanessa

[2021/04/11 08:23]  Vanessa Jane: I very much agree with what Miss Lisa said, but I have a question. Do you feel assertiveness is only a Dominant trait?

[2021/04/11 08:23]  Vanessa Jane: ty

[2021/04/11 08:25]  Lisa Summerland: Not at all Vanessa.......... Assertiveness is an admirable characteristic is both sides of the slash and as a D/s couple works out their relationship via good open communications it is best for both sides to be assertive in their wants, need, =desires, cravings, fantasies and personal feelings

[2021/04/11 08:25]  Vanni Cannoli: That you for that Miss Lisa!

[2021/04/11 08:25]  Lisa Summerland: ♥

[2021/04/11 08:25]  Vanni Cannoli: I'll just add, Vanessa, that everyone has to be assertive at some time in their lives

[2021/04/11 08:26]  Vanessa Jane: smiles and nods to Vanni

[2021/04/11 08:26]  Vanni Cannoli: A person who is never assertive is a doormat and will be stomped on

[2021/04/11 08:26]  Vanni Cannoli: A person, on the other hand, who never puts the brakes on and takes a more passive role at times will be a bully and hated.

[2021/04/11 08:26]  Vanni Cannoli: So I think when looking at D and s here, it's generalities

[2021/04/11 08:26]  Brianne: 'doormat'?  More objectification talk?

[2021/04/11 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli: That's the object here!

[2021/04/11 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli:  points

[2021/04/11 08:27]  Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[2021/04/11 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[2021/04/11 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli: We'll be here all week!

[2021/04/11 08:27]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Miss Lisa and Vanessa for your question.

[2021/04/11 08:28]  Vanni Cannoli: Next we come to Sir Nicholas, please

[2021/04/11 08:30]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: As i look around i may be the only Gay here but the bottoms can be assertive

[2021/04/11 08:31]  Vanni Cannoli: So Sir, your view is that gay bottoms can be very assertive? Or do You think that is an attitude of many bottoms across the spectrum of sexuality?

[2021/04/11 08:32]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: i think if the bottoms know what they want they will seek it out and be sure to find a way to get what they need

[2021/04/11 08:32]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: they can be sneaky lol

[2021/04/11 08:32]  Vanni Cannoli: Some can!

[2021/04/11 08:33]  Vanni Cannoli:  makes my Sneak roll DC 35

[2021/04/11 08:33]  Lysana Blackwing:  giggles

[2021/04/11 08:33]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: giggles

[2021/04/11 08:33]  Vanni Cannoli: Sorry, Dungeons and Dragons humor...

[2021/04/11 08:33]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: i got it

[2021/04/11 08:33]  Vanni Cannoli: <-- Geek!

[2021/04/11 08:33]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: <== dungeon Master

[2021/04/11 08:33]  Vanni Cannoli: That would of course lead to a discussion of how sneaky is "acceptable" and then if and when it leads to "topping from the bottom"

[2021/04/11 08:34]  Becky Summerland: <--cute

[2021/04/11 08:34]  Lysana Blackwing:  has a sudden image of a Xaara tabletop RPG group

[2021/04/11 08:34]  Vanni Cannoli: but that's a different discussion, one worth having soon though

[2021/04/11 08:34]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: aka power bottom

[2021/04/11 08:34]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: yes please

[2021/04/11 08:34]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir for that, always good to keep in mind.

[2021/04/11 08:35]  Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Master Ballard, please.

[2021/04/11 08:35]  Ballard: Often there is an idea that a sub has to be a wet blanket of simpering need and surrender.  Or, as we say it, a doormat to be trod upon.  Personally I find that behavior to be tiring and off putting.  Anyone that knows my clan  will certify that my girls are all strong, and smart.  Even the slaviest of them has her own mind and will express it.  This actually assists me in my leadership.  Doormats tend to retain heat until they burst.  Only the free exchange of communication can lead to a stable situation. As a sapiosexual I require such an exchange.  #

[2021/04/11 08:35]  ϯ ƝɨcիσƖαѕ McƇυƖƖєη ϯ: Amen

[2021/04/11 08:35]  Vanni Cannoli: yay!

[2021/04/11 08:36]  harry:  nods in agreement

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: Well Said

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Vanessa Jane: smiles, well said Sir Ballard

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Vanni Cannoli: So for you, Sir, Dominance is a dance with smart, in some ways assertive women that don't need your endless "mother henning".

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Ballard: Exactly.  A nice ass helps too.

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Vanni Cannoli: Indeed!

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Vanni Cannoli: Now to be fair, there are some that *do* like that dynamic

[2021/04/11 08:36]  Ballard: I mean -0  they need to be able to put up with my sense of humor

[2021/04/11 08:37]  Vanni Cannoli: Where the sub is 100% dependent on the will of their Dominant.

[2021/04/11 08:37]  Peaches Svenska:  smiled, her devotion evident in her eyes as she looked at him and squirmed on the arm of the chair

[2021/04/11 08:37]  Vanni Cannoli: And so that's fine.

[2021/04/11 08:37]  Vanni Cannoli: To each their own, and as long as there is consent and it works for all parties, it's good.

[2021/04/11 08:37]  Abraham: amen

[2021/04/11 08:38]  Vanni Cannoli: When we talk about D and s "types" and connections we can come back to that idea of "how dependent is desired?"

[2021/04/11 08:38]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Ballard!

[2021/04/11 08:38]  Vanni Cannoli: Master RB, You have the floor please!

[2021/04/11 08:38]  RB Quinn: The best submissives, in my view, have a feistiness borne of self-confidence and, yes, assertiveness.  Looks meaningfully at his Taree and smiles. #

[2021/04/11 08:39]  Lisa Summerland: Well said RB ♥

[2021/04/11 08:39]  Vanni Cannoli: May I ask a follow up to that, Master RB?

[2021/04/11 08:39]  RB Quinn: I'd be upset if you didn't, gorgeous

[2021/04/11 08:40]  Vanni Cannoli: So do you feel then that Your role as the Dominant in the lives of Your girls/family is enhanced and made easier by the fact they have that confidence in them? That You can direct them as You want, and it doesn't toss in problems to have subs that can think for themselves?

[2021/04/11 08:42]  RB Quinn: I do agree with Ballard's points, so yes it is easier for me.  But the biggest benefit, to me, is simply that by being willing to challenge when I am about to fuck up, it vastly reduces the number of times that I do.

[2021/04/11 08:42]  Ballard: All valid points.

[2021/04/11 08:42]  Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir!

[2021/04/11 08:42]  Becky Summerland: knowing you and your lovelies, you really are living what you just said RB... and I am always amazed when seeing your family together

[2021/04/11 08:43]  Vanni Cannoli: As long as it doesn't reduce the number of times You...uh..never mind.

[2021/04/11 08:43]  Lysana Blackwing:  cackles

[2021/04/11 08:43]  RB Quinn: hahaha...

[2021/04/11 08:43]  Vanni Cannoli:  giggles

[2021/04/11 08:43]  RB Quinn: Thank you, Becky... *blows her a kiss*

[2021/04/11 08:43]  Becky Summerland: ♥

[2021/04/11 08:43]  Vanni Cannoli: Very well said Master RB!

[2021/04/11 08:43]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank You!

[2021/04/11 08:45]  Vanni Cannoli: Brianne!

[2021/04/11 08:45]  Brianne: oh, already?

[2021/04/11 08:46]  Brianne: ok....

[2021/04/11 08:46]  Brianne: I just want to add a note of appreciation for Dominants.  Some wise people once told me that a Dominant is like The Giving Tree (in one aspect) and I really believe that's true.  I understand better that a both D and s have responsibilities but I'm fascinated but how Dominants can be such fountains of goodness.  They can make the pieces snap into place, or conduct the orchestra.  And sometimes, watching her devious mind work, just before some surprise, is full of thrilling anticipation.  (It's why I love to nurture and serve such a person.)  It's an amazing talent to be Dominant.  I'm not trying to suck-up, it just strikes me me as a truism, from my perspective.#

[2021/04/11 08:46]  Vanni Cannoli: ♥♥♥

[2021/04/11 08:47]  Lisa Summerland: ♥

[2021/04/11 08:47]  Vanni Cannoli: Dominants and Submissives need each other, and I don't think it's improper to show that appreciation for each other

[2021/04/11 08:47]  Becky Summerland: Anne, so very well said, much respect ♥

[2021/04/11 08:50]  Vanni Cannoli: Well said Brianne!

[2021/04/11 08:50]  Vanni Cannoli: And I don't think our Doms mind sincere flattery ;)

[2021/04/11 08:50]  Brianne: ty, Vanni

[2021/04/11 08:51]  Vanni Cannoli: We go to Pure please, go ahead Pure

[2021/04/11 08:51]  Pure: that is in my picks:

[2021/04/11 08:51]  Pure: A D/s relationship is music! Master is the musician and the submissive his instrument.

 It's not just about sex (or BDSM). It is a relationship made of respect, sharing and trust.

 HE knows better than anyone who I am, what I need to be better, stronger, more courageous. HE's the one who knows how to protect me.

 HE has my admiration and my gratitude.

 HE knows how to touch my heart, reach my soul.

[2021/04/11 08:52]  Brianne: Fantastically true!

[2021/04/11 08:52]  Pure: no dominance, no sub, no lifestyle..all is link

[2021/04/11 08:52]  Pure: #

[2021/04/11 08:53]  Vanni Cannoli:  might add "HE knows how to smack my ass" at the end, but that's just a personal touch.

[2021/04/11 08:53]  Lisa Summerland: So well said Pure ♥

[2021/04/11 08:53]  Lysana Blackwing: hehehhehehe

[2021/04/11 08:53]  Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[2021/04/11 08:53]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[2021/04/11 08:53]  Dijana384: Hugs Pure

[2021/04/11 08:54]  Vanni Cannoli: It really captures the essence well Pure

[2021/04/11 08:54]  Lysana Blackwing: If we're the instrument, clearly we're in the percussion section.

[2021/04/11 08:54]  Becky Summerland: "Knows how to smack ass" that would make a good title too

[2021/04/11 08:54]  Becky Summerland: lol Lys!

[2021/04/11 08:54]  Vanni Cannoli: Vanessa, you have a comment please

[2021/04/11 08:55]  Vanessa Jane: I am wondering if a core component of being a Dominant is to have a drive to leadership, with all the responsibilities and cares that a true leader takes on readily as part of that.  Power with compassion, care, nurturing, the calling to protect - as well as the joy of control.  Many submissives are very capable, may even work in positions of responsibility, power, leadership even, but they do so not as natural leaders, but somehow 'in service' even though they are in positions of authority.  What do O/others think? done

[2021/04/11 08:56]  Vanni Cannoli: I've spoken a bunch of times about my RL friend who manages a Starbucks, and goes home to be a TPE slave to her Master. She NEEDS that, it's how she recharges

[2021/04/11 08:56]  Brianne: c @ Vanessa

[2021/04/11 08:56]  Vanni Cannoli: as she expends a lot of energy to take a leadership role

[2021/04/11 08:56]  Vanni Cannoli: so I definitely agree with you there, Vanessa.

[2021/04/11 08:56]  Vanni Cannoli: Brianne you have a comment directly to Vanessa so go ahead please

[2021/04/11 08:57]  Brianne: I agree, Vanessa, we all must take initiative but a Dominant tends to expand that into Leadership.

[2021/04/11 08:57]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Vanessa and Brianne!

[2021/04/11 08:58]  Vanni Cannoli: I imagine a few of the comments coming will expand on that

[2021/04/11 08:59]  Vanni Cannoli: Lysana, you are up please!

[2021/04/11 08:59]  Lysana Blackwing: Thanks, Vanni

[2021/04/11 09:01]  Lysana Blackwing: Using myself as an example, there are indeed subs who can take on management roles successfully. I've seen it play out for me in RL, where a boss whose style resonates with mine and lets me know I'm appreciated gets a lot from me in return. But I am also one who needs to let go of the reins. Running the whole show is not my strength. #

[2021/04/11 09:02]  Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[2021/04/11 09:02]  Vanni Cannoli: I'm an effective Department Chair because I don't have to micro-manage anyone

[2021/04/11 09:02]  Vanni Cannoli: it's a simple job

[2021/04/11 09:02]  Lysana Blackwing: That!

[2021/04/11 09:02]  Vanni Cannoli: I could never be a manager in a commercial or financial or office setting

[2021/04/11 09:03]  Lysana Blackwing: I've been a volunteer Division Co-Chair. That works with the right co for me.

[2021/04/11 09:03]  Abraham: c

[2021/04/11 09:03]  Lysana Blackwing: Shared buck-stopping means it's reasonable energy flow.

[2021/04/11 09:03]  Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[2021/04/11 09:03]  Vanni Cannoli:  hi-5s Lysana

[2021/04/11 09:04]  Lysana Blackwing:  high-fives back

[2021/04/11 09:04]  Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that, agree 100%

[2021/04/11 09:04]  Vanni Cannoli: Back to Sir Ballard please

[2021/04/11 09:04]  Ballard: "I feel that we did not really delve into what attracts subs to a given Dominant.  I'd like to hear more about that."  takes out his note pad and begins to record names.  "Attraction in SL in general is a bit of a mystery.  A nice avatar is not a good indicator of what lies beneath.  What more is there that fires the imagination of a submissive?"   #

[2021/04/11 09:04]  Vanni Cannoli: If any sub-types would like to answer, go right ahead

[2021/04/11 09:05]  Brianne: Sir, it's something like "I love it when a plan comes together."

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Dijana384: the more intelligent, well spoken, sense of humor, fun loving?!?!? swoons.....

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Vanni Cannoli: If you want to answer Master Ballard's question, go right ahead, no C is required

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Lysana Blackwing: Well, Master Ballard, I'm sort of spiritual about that in here. There's a spark I can sense somehow. That quiver in my gut, the need to sit upright a bit more or more to the point, kneel. Knowing is a split-second thing.

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Peaches Svenska:  smiled and nodded. "thank you Vanni. You asked what subs found attractive, what draws us to a dominant.  I can't speak for anyone else but I have a pretty good track record when it comes to recognizing a true Dominant. I can't explain why or how I do but in my mind's eye, Its like I have rabbit ear antennae that rise up out of my head (like the old show 'MY FAVORITE MARTIAN') which send vibes triggering a "hmm..i'd like to know more about him" switch, or a "RUN FOR THE HILLS!!" switch. It just doesn’t take long to recognize a player from a real Dom. Sometimes I've been fooled for a short time but it really doesn’t take long to see true colors. I'm drawn to that "THING' dom's exude. That thing that is so hard to put into words but so very evident and real. What draws me, is the power of their words as i get to know them. Their words and actions paint a very clear picture of the validity of their claim to be a Dominant, not just a player.

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Brianne:  nods in agreement with what I'm seeing

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Vanessa Jane: realness, authenticity, not putting on an act, but letting the real dominance shine through, but as a real human being

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Lisa Summerland: /mmmmsss....... that spark also flares within the Domanants.......

[2021/04/11 09:06]  Ballard: Would you say the 'spark' comes out of how a person emotes, or presents them self?

[2021/04/11 09:07]  Lysana Blackwing: Some of each, Sir.

[2021/04/11 09:07]  Dijana384: Yes Vanessa!

[2021/04/11 09:07]  Dee Wolfe: For me Master Ballard,  what attracted me to my Master *smiles to Master* is that he was different than most of the Dominants I have known.  He's my guide and keeps me in the right direction but he's also fun loving and has a sense of humor.  He makes me want to be a better submissive.

[2021/04/11 09:07]  Brianne:  applauds

[2021/04/11 09:07]  Daelenie McMillan: I can agree with all of that so far. A good Dominant isn't half assed

[2021/04/11 09:08]  Brianne: yes, a full ass is better

[2021/04/11 09:08]  Daelenie McMillan: they fully assed :P

[2021/04/11 09:08]  Vanni Cannoli: LOL!

[2021/04/11 09:08]  Lysana Blackwing: There's a language to how we make our avatars, even as it can translate differently. Then how the person addresses others and shares info can confirm what the solar plexus is tugging at me about.

[2021/04/11 09:08]  RB Quinn:  writes carefully "Don't be half-assed"

[2021/04/11 09:09]  Vanni Cannoli: OK I hope You got good notes there Master Ballard!

[2021/04/11 09:09]  harry: i find myself asking if the other person is Dom'ing me or i them. Do they show a confidence i want to follow or is it the other way around

[2021/04/11 09:10]  Ballard: Thank you all.

[2021/04/11 09:10]  harry: With Miss Sher, i wan to follow her, not the other way around

[2021/04/11 09:10]  Vanni Cannoli: this will go in the log that goes on the webpage so everyone can go back and read it all

[2021/04/11 09:10]  Vanni Cannoli: we have what appear to be a few more comments so let's move on

[2021/04/11 09:10]  Lysana Blackwing: I mean, consider how we met, Master Ballard. No direct communiation between us but I couldn't stop looking at you. *smiles*

[2021/04/11 09:10]  Vanni Cannoli: Teddy you have a question?

[2021/04/11 09:11]  Teddy: i like doms that make me feel safe an free to be me.that dont expect huge things from me.cause theyre in charge an can rely on them to make all decisions.an so i dont need to worry about anything. can just be puppy an think of puppy things an reacting to things like puppy would.nothing big an human to think about.an theyre comforting an fun an playful. it feels nice an relaxing. is that normal or apuppyish?

[2021/04/11 09:11]  Vanni Cannoli: I think just substitute "submissive" for "puppy" in most of that and it's largely the same, Teddy

[2021/04/11 09:11]  Teddy: okies ^^

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please Miss Becky

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Lysana Blackwing:  nods. "especially when I'm in Tigger mode."

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Ballard: Teddy, if you need to pretend and cannot relax, then you will never be happy.  Be yourself and things will either work  out, or not.

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Vanni Cannoli: "Your top is made out of rubber? Your bottom is made out of springs?"

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Becky Summerland: I see what you just described everyday at the farm Teddy, you see them also at the farm and at 8 pines... most ponies are like that love ♥

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Lysana Blackwing: Ask Master Erik, Vanni. ;)

[2021/04/11 09:12]  Teddy: Yaps! :P

[2021/04/11 09:13]  Daelenie McMillan: whispers: Tiggers are wonderful things!

[2021/04/11 09:13]  Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for the question!

[2021/04/11 09:13]  Vanni Cannoli: Sir Abraham, You have a comment, please go ahead, Sir

[2021/04/11 09:13]  Abraham: Based on earlier comments which shows that subs are highly capable people who can manage and plan but prefer direction and leadership themselves by someone more confident than themselves.

[2021/04/11 09:14]  Lysana Blackwing:  tilts her head, pondering

[2021/04/11 09:14]  Lysana Blackwing: c to Abraham

[2021/04/11 09:14]  Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Lysana

[2021/04/11 09:16]  Lysana Blackwing: "More confident" is perhaps an overly broad generalization in my experience. "More willing/capable" definitely fits. I'm personally confident to the point of brazenness if I let myself and it's not an area I'm struggling with. But my Master has his struggle areas also. Ours just happen to dovetail and I don't have to lead hm by the nose because he handles it differently.

[2021/04/11 09:16]  Lysana Blackwing: #

[2021/04/11 09:17]  RB Quinn:  nods.. figuring Lysana would handle that better  *winks to her*

[2021/04/11 09:17]  Becky Summerland: very well said Lys

[2021/04/11 09:17]  Vanni Cannoli: I agree with that comment, Lysana, but I also think that the very thought of "leading" would freak some subs to their core. "Support" yes.

[2021/04/11 09:17]  Abraham:  smiles and winks to both

[2021/04/11 09:17]  Lysana Blackwing: Leading Master? AHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH

[2021/04/11 09:17]  Lysana Blackwing: No.

[2021/04/11 09:18]  Vanni Cannoli: at least leading in that relationship

[2021/04/11 09:18]  Becky Summerland: lol

[2021/04/11 09:18]  Vanni Cannoli: Which is what I'm sure you meant anyway

[2021/04/11 09:18]  Lysana Blackwing: IF a dominant makes me feel like I need to lead, I do not kneel there.

[2021/04/11 09:18]  Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Vanessa

[2021/04/11 09:18]  Vanni Cannoli: good point Lysana!

[2021/04/11 09:19]  Dijana384: true!

[2021/04/11 09:19]  Vanessa Jane: Last year my Master came close to losing his home to the fires in Oregon.  It was a terrifying ten days for him, leaving him unusually vulnerable.  I was the strong one then, not as leader but as rock and support.  That was my service to him then.  So I agree, strong in support if needed.  one

[2021/04/11 09:19]  Vanessa Jane: done

[2021/04/11 09:19]  Lysana Blackwing: ding ding ding *points at Vanessa*

[2021/04/11 09:19]  Vanni Cannoli: Well said!

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Brianne:  nods to Vanessa in total agreement an dunderstanding.

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Vanni Cannoli: omg

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Dijana384: agrees completely Vanessa

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Vanni Cannoli: we have total nested loops here!

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Pure: Dominant are also human

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Lisa Summerland: nods

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Lisa Summerland: and make mistakes

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Vanni Cannoli: (reply Vanessa (reply Vanni (reply Lysana (Comment ++))))

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Brianne: welp, Vanni, there goes the space-time continuum.

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Lysana Blackwing: So we're replicating SL in microcosm?

[2021/04/11 09:20]  Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead uhh...Miss Becky

[2021/04/11 09:21]  Vanni Cannoli: Hey I made sure to close all the parentheses

[2021/04/11 09:21]  Vanni Cannoli: I'm a good Schemer!

[2021/04/11 09:21]  Vanni Cannoli: *programming joke*

[2021/04/11 09:21]  Becky Summerland: very much so Vanessa, and I'd add that since your are his, you are prolly the person who with time got to know him the best... which, in my opinion, makes you the best person to be his rock when he needs... thank you for your comment#

[2021/04/11 09:21]  Lysana Blackwing: There's a misplaced semicolon. ;)

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Is it ok to just go ahead? I haven't said anything yet and I was up next a while ago with other being put ahead in the queue

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Vanni Cannoli: People keep adding comments CC!

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Becky Summerland: sorry CC! ♥

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Lysana Blackwing: She has been in the queue a while, though ㋡

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Vanni Cannoli: Let's get to CC

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead CC

[2021/04/11 09:22]  Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: To answer Sir Ballards Question, I find intelligence draws me to a dominant. Even more than whether they are bossy. Also, have similar interests, which I guess is like that with a lover as well. But if a Domme isn't at least as intelligent as me, then I can't respect them. They also have to be very empathic to the point where they can know what I need or anticipate my needs. There are other things I can add but I'm not that focused today.

[2021/04/11 09:23]  Brianne:  applauds

[2021/04/11 09:23]  Becky Summerland: ♥ CC

[2021/04/11 09:23]  Pure: NICE

[2021/04/11 09:23]  Brianne: thumbs up for "very empathic"

[2021/04/11 09:23]  Vanni Cannoli: Nicely said, CC!

[2021/04/11 09:24]  Lysana Blackwing: Empathic and perceptive. One of my favorite four-word sentences is, "I know you, mine."

[2021/04/11 09:26]  Vanni Cannoli: Then Dae you get the final word today!

[2021/04/11 09:27]  Daelenie McMillan: Thank you,  it's about my earlier comment

[2021/04/11 09:27]  Daelenie McMillan: save vs wall o text AT -3 PLEASE

[2021/04/11 09:27]  Daelenie McMillan: I need to apologize if my half assed comment was misunderstood. The meaning is, I have met a lot of people that didn't know what being a Dominant really is about. They played and faked it but in the end they were half assed about it and either not fully committed or they were just playing the role. 

Like Miss Lisa said, it's something intrinsic to the person. you either are dominant or not. even those who Switch, when they’re on a Dominant kick, they are Dominant. I am sure you all understand that mindset. So if I get attracted to someone it's in their personality, the way they say things and yes a little in the way they create their AV too, that shows attention to detail and a care about themselves. I could go on but I don't want to bore anyone further. Thank you :) #

[2021/04/11 09:28]  Vanni Cannoli: You're completely correct Dae

[2021/04/11 09:28]  Abraham: yes

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Dijana384: love that Dae

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Vanni Cannoli: The line between Top and Dominant is thin, but it's real

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Ballard: Dae, we may have had fun with the term, but we understood, mm and I agree completely.

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Lysana Blackwing: Yes.

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Vanni Cannoli: So well said!

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Peaches Svenska: perfect Dae

[2021/04/11 09:29]  ŁγĄŁŁ: remember sl is full of wannabe Doms that have no clue except what easy pray they find in sl

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Master Lyall!

[2021/04/11 09:29]  Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all so much for this discussion

[2021/04/11 09:30]  Vanni Cannoli: We'll delve into Submission next week

[2021/04/11 09:30]  Vanni Cannoli: And then create a typology of D/s types

[2021/04/11 09:30]  Vanni Cannoli: Please toss some love in the tip jar on the bar if you can, to keep our happy and kinky home going