"Submission:" April 18, 2021

 

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: ok so last week we went over Dominance and how Dom/mes practice their "craft" as it were, and what gets Their gears going

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: This week we move to the "s" in D/s, submission

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: now before I open the floor, I'd like to repeat something we've said several times here, there is a difference between Tops and Bottoms, which applies to this discussion

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: A Top is a person that takes charge in a *scene*, but that doesn't necessarily mean that person in a real Dominant person

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: However, it's quite true that in general, Dominants are Tops, they just expand their Topping to more areas of life

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: So with that in mind, remember that a Bottom is not by definition a Submissive

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: A Bottom takes that role in a scene, but then will probably go back to neutral/"normal" when it is over

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So while a submissive will be a bottom in a scene, usually, that doesn't mean that all Bottoms are s-types

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So like Dominance, Submission is something *more*

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: And that's what we are here to discuss today, what is that *more* that differentiates the Bottom from the S-Type?

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Why do subs crave that, and what gets Dom/mes all fired up about it?

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So ....let's tawk!

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: er Talk

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: What do Y/you see a sub as, especially as different from a Bottom?

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Lypi, you have the floor when you are done to start us off!

[08:21] Lypiphera: For myself, it's a desire to please my Dominant in all aspects of life, not just during a scene. I mean yes, I'm a masochist but it goes beyond beating me - it's also mental.

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: So the acts to please Him are not just in the scene, but in most or all of the aspects of your relationship out of the said beating?

[08:22] Lypiphera: "play" is just one aspect, not the end game

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: For the Bottom, that is the end game, and there's nothing wrong with that at all

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Most people in the RL scene are Bottoms

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: But the sub is, as you said more.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Great! Thanks for starting us off Lypi!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason, You are up please!

[08:24] Sir Jason Oi™: A bottom is someone in a scene that has things done to them they can be a Dominant in control of what is going on during that scene. A submissive is one that takes the bottom role in a power exchange dynamic, they submit to the authority and control of another person, they are humble and compliant(according to Merriam-Webster).#

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Oh good, Sir, I don't have to ding You for plagiarism :P

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[08:24] Sir Jason Oi™: LOL

[08:25] Sir Jason Oi™: I cite my references

[08:25] Ballard: I'd pay good money to watch Vanni ding Jason.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, I agree, the Bottom allows control in the scene, the Sub allows control in negotiated areas of their life

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Well now, just go to http://vannidings.com and pay $1.95 a minute

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: First five minutes of ding donging free!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir Jason for that!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You are up please!

[08:26] Ballard: I find this topic to be very interesting.  I will likely listen more than I speak, because this topic is a chance for me to learn, more than to expound.  Yet I will expound briefly.

My family is quite a varied group.  While each of Peaches, Candice and Rouge are very different, they all have some common themes.  All are  intelligent, can be assertive, and have a strong self of themselves.  Submission is a lifestyle, a relationship structure.  In no way is a submissive weak.  They want rules, order, protocols and rituals.  They need me to lead.  I also  listen.  #

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli cheers

[08:27] Dijana384: yes!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: That of course doesn't invalidate the s-type that really is extremely dependent on their Dominant to direct them in most if not all areas. If that's how things roll for them, it's great.

[08:28] Ballard: It may seem counter intuitive, but dependence need not be weakness.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: for example, we usually frown on "Fin-Dom/me" stuff

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: But there are some s-types that *need* a Dominant person directing their finances

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: not in an exploitation sort of way, but a caretaking way

[08:29] Dijana384: nods

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: "No, you can't buy that shit, you have to ask me first before you buy anything"

[08:30] Dijana384: lol

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: But You're right Master Ballard, most Dominants like subs that can act on their own once given the structures

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: thank You!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: We go to my sidekick here and cute blondie, Brianne. Go ahead!

[08:32] Brianne: ty, chief...

[08:32] Brianne: The joy of being a submissive, for me, comes from being the follower that compliments my dominant leader, and then adding in twists (within my boundaries, which I need and love) that let them know how much I cherish them and want to bring them ecstasy and fulfillment  If I accomplish that, if I can bring real happiness, I feel really good about my role.  More than a Bottom, I dedicate myself to that, submitting to that purpose and to the authority of my Dominant, even when they're not around.  Over time, I'm getting better at that. #

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli smiles big

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Bingo, Brianne!

[08:32] Dijana384: love that Brianne

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: That was really well said, Brianne, and I think gets to the heart of Submission

[08:34] Brianne: thanks Vanni.  That means a lot to me.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Iris, you are up please!

[08:35] Iris Seven: For me one thing I crave from my submission is a sense of orderliness. One thing I really want from my dominant is structure, boundaries, and clear rules. This gives me a safe field of operation, a clear sense of how to behave and what to do. It helps give me clarity and a sense of calm and purpose in the midst of life which can be so full of confusions and mixed signals. This is where I find that my submission is about far more than kink play. Also, having a dominant gives me a focus outside of myself. I find I'm happiest and the most productive when I'm not caught up in my own concerns. It actually allows me to deal better when I have to attend to things, knowing I will have that break to make it not at all about me, but about Master and his pleasure#

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[08:36] Brianne: oh, that is an excellent point about being outside of yourself.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: One thing that a lot of S-Types say is that having a Dominant gives them that clarity and direction, Iris. And that they feel rather "unmoored" when they don't have it.

[08:37] Iris Seven: mhm

[08:37] Dijana384: agrees

[08:37] Dee Wolfe  nods in agreement

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: So you hit the nail on the head!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Great comment! Thanks so much :)

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Like I was just saying with some subs that need a Dominant to direct their finances....a lot of S-Types just need the structure that Master Ballard was saying He provides His girls

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: A pure Bottom doesn't need that in day to day life, they just need some Sadist with a flogger to beat them silly

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: and then go to McDs after lol

[08:39] Iris Seven: lol

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's move on, thanks again Iris!

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Vanessa you are up please

[08:40] Vanessa Jane: Sorry - this is long - apologies.  For me submission is deeper than a sexual/kink thing, great as that is.  It is how I relate to people, to relationships - and very especially with my Master.  Its a need to please, to serve, to make life easier for others, to care for others, to leave 'myself' behind more and focus outward on others.  Putting others before myself, at least to a degree (not unhealthily so).  I can't speak for other subs but for me there is almost a spiritual aspect to this, a deeper need and drive.

I am a very strong person, with capacity to lead, but it is also a need not to have to be the strong one, to be able to feel the safe harbour of a Dominant, allowing me 'time off' from that.  For my mind to be able to 'still' at times in his care and control.  So that is another aspect for me.  We are all different so I can only speak for me and my submissive nature.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I've spoken a number of times about my RL friend that manages a Starbucks and is a 24/7 slave to her Master, and that's exactly what she says...time with Master recharges her

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: She doesn't have to be in charge anymore, she can just let go

[08:41] Lypiphera: mmhmm

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent, great point, thanks Vanessa!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Jescha has a question

[08:42] Jescha: Vanessa. I love that. Thank you!

And Thank you Vanni

I want to comment that I disagree that dependence is n opposition to strength. There are many different kinds of strength, and I find that submission is  a really potent form. Surrender is not for the faint o heart.

Please say more?  abut bottoms RL?  why do you say that?   I have no rl experience....

I want to say that the difference between me and a bottom is that a bottom plays at submission, as I might go out dancing.  For me submission is in by bones  it is in every breath I take, my very thinking, from rising to going to bed at night.

done

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: I don't want to say, Jescha that a bottom "plays" at submission, that sounds like they're "not real".

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: A Bottom has different needs than a Sub

[08:43] Rachel Reid nods

[08:43] Ⲋⲓⲅ Ⲟⲅⲓⲟⲛ: I agree

[08:43] Jescha nods  Thank you Vanni

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The Bottom wants the S/M or B/D type of play, but doesn't have the needs to be directed out of the scene

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: and Tops are very happy to deliver that

[08:44] Rachel Reid: Exactly

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The sub *may* want BDSM play, or not.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Some S-Types are adverse to BDSM play, they just want to serve someone and be directed

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: So it's really a matter of degree of desire for control and direction

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: And the inner needs

[08:45] Lypiphera: mmhmm

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: I like beating the shit out of a Bottom, but I have no desire to direct them out of a scene

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, I'd prob make them dinner after the beating lol

[08:46] Brianne: beat me, feed me.

[08:46] Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: but that's a good question and it does bear explanation, so thank you for that

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:46] harry: i find Miss having me on the leash gives me a strong sense of belonging to Her. i actually find it a comforting experience, belonging to her. #

[08:47] Iris Seven: well said, Harry

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: S-types, please raise your hand if you agree with what Harry just said

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli raises my hand for sure

[08:47] Lypiphera raises hand

[08:47] Iris Seven: woot definitely

[08:47] Brianne hand shoots up!

[08:47] Vanessa Jane: raises hand

[08:47] Dee Wolfe  raises her hand

[08:47] Dijana384: raises hand

[08:47] harry raises his hand, smiking at his Miss

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Iris

[08:48] ღ Pandora  ღ: raises my hand

[08:48] Jescha: raises my hand

[08:48] Aspen Diamond: Me

[08:48] Daelenie McMillan: raises her hand

[08:48] Iris Seven: that sense of belonging goes hand in hand with the stress relief I was talking about earlier. Having that place where I feel at home also helps me make sense of the world around me#

[08:48] Rachel Reid Raises my hand way up

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly Iris!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: So seems you are in good company, Harry!

[08:49] Aspen Diamond: I feel the feeling of warmth Harry

[08:49] harry smiles, tank you Vanni, glad others also feel it

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Harry!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen you are up please

[08:50] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni,

When I first really stared in this life style I always gave and treated all males with respect. I would call them Sirs.

When I started ((Let's say going to bed with them)) I really did not know in my early 20's if I was a bottom, or a top, or a switch. I had no understanding at that time. When I started reading like " John Norman, The Story of O" I found my self identifying as a sub.

Listening to Master Ballard, I am like his subs. I am intelligent or I would not have been in the jobs as a giver. I can be very assertive when need to be. I also have a strong self worth of myself. " Please ask Master Gunner. " Giggling. But I am missing that Order, Rules, the Structure from a Dom or in a scene with a Top who knows. I also needs the protocols and rituals need to be lead.

Since I am single, Yes, I need to be both sub and dom to myself in the Real World. Having SL and happy I found it has taught me many lessons and still learning them. Trying to find groups in the Real World that is BDSM with

[08:50] Aspen Diamond:  D/s groups are very hard in my area. I am working on that. 

In Real World I am a S-Tupe having a Dom to guild me. But crave for that Dom to take the control that I really need. Varessa you are right about that submission is deeper than sexual/kinky things. That is a plus if it is. I get tired of a Dom saying what and how do you want to set the scene. If that Dom knows you and have really take note of your preference list then they have the idea. Now I have some scenes I would love to play out don't get me wrong. But at times the bottoms wants that Dom to take full control of the scene. Harry, I love when Master Gunnar puts me on my leash with the same melting heart.

Thank you and I might add more. Smiling #

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli hands Aspen her Pulitzer Prize for writing

[08:52] Aspen Diamond: OMG thank you Vanni giggling

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli grins and winks

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Lots of good stuff there!

[08:53] Aspen Diamond: I have tears now rolling down my cheeks. Thank you #

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: A friend of mine has something in her profile that says (paraphrasing) "I come not to control the world and serve myself, but to serve the world and control myself."

[08:53] Dijana384: nice!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Sultry you are up please!

[08:54] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ-: I agree with Iris!  And so many other great comments! For the last few months I have discovered that it is the structure, rules, and set boundaries that have centered me.  I gain the most pleasure from serving my Master and seeing to his needs first.  But I also have learned that I don't have to lose myself in the process.  I can turn to my Master for strength when I need it, or provide it if necessary.#

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly!

[08:55] Sir Jason Oi™: Provide it if necessary!

[08:55] Ballard: If you lose yourself, then you diminish your gift.

[08:56] -ღ Sultry Seven ღ- nods

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Really well said, Sultry!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I've said many times, the quality of this discussion is in the august group that comes here. Once again, Y/you all shine

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sultry!

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You are up again, please!

[08:57] Ballard: Just a note -  a bottom is not always kinky, or wanting S&M.  We often confuse BDSM and D/s.  While they do tend to overlap within people, they are really quite different.  Often a bottom wants to have a break from being in control and just enjoy some good old rough sex, perhaps light bondage.  My specialty: http://roughsexwithballard.com/Applyhere   ((just kidding!))

#

[08:57] Mirella Dallagio has come online

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: LOLOL!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I do know how to make Forms if You need one, Sir....

[08:58] Ballard: But the comment is serious

[08:58] Ballard: Joke notwithstanding

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Not every s-type is drawn to acts of BDSM

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Just as most Bottoms are not really interested in "service" out of the scene

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Actually, I found over the years at my RL club how to subtly tell the difference between a Bottom and a Sub there

[08:59] Arella: Tc Jescha

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: The Bottom will come up and ask "So, are you interested in a scene?" and then wants to negotiate it

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: A sub on the other hand will come up and say something like "Can I get you anything? How are you doing tonight? If you need any service, please let me know. May I please sit here with you?" etc

[09:01] Brianne nods

[09:01] Sir Jason Oi™ nods

[09:01] Dijana384: agrees

[09:01] Rachel Reid nods a lot

[09:01] Ⲋⲓⲅ Ⲟⲅⲓⲟⲛ: indeed

[09:01] Arella: Bingo

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Again, I'm not knocking Bottoms in the least here

[09:01] Dijana384: mmhmm just different!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: But it's a subtle way to tell the type of person, and where their interests lie

[09:01] Brianne: Ha!  "knocking bottoms"  Sounds like your Saturday night.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[09:02] Brianne: *laughs*

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Rachel, you are up please

[09:02] Rachel Reid: Thank you Vanni! To sort of go back to Jescha’s questions, I think it’s important to remember that labels such as “Top” and “Bottom” are defining sexual roles and not much else. For example, my rl spouse is definitely interested in finding more opportunities to explore being a bottom in bed, but they’re very, very much a dominant personality type. They wouldn’t necessarily like it if I tried to order their food for them if we were at a restaurant, whereas they know that that’s something their subby wifey (me) absolutely loves.

Personally, I’m finding that it’s a huge turn on for me when a dominant personality is so potent and secure and sexually curious that they’re open to exploring different aspects of their sexuality.#

[09:03] Daelenie McMillan: omg *marks her calendar*

[09:03] M73 nods at Rachels words

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Rachel!

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: I'll just add that "Top" and "Bottom" don't have to be sexual, they really denote in our case pure BDSM roles. I have had a lot of scenes at the club, mostly as a Top, sometimes as a Bottom, and it's really not sexual

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: But the roles can certainly be sexual as well

[09:05] Rachel Reid: Very good point Vanni thank you for that!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please Aspen

[09:14] Aspen Diamond: A gift  of my self was lost before Roissy Vd'O and I found it here at Xaara in the few months I have been here. Now I have gifts to spare with a good heart again about re-finding myself. Master Smiling with the help of all of you from this room and the Whole Sim of helper here..

I was not going to say anything about Gor. But!! everybody has their own experiences in Gor. Master Ballard class is a great one to start out with. Thank you Master Ballard for that class. I am half and half that is Half Gorean and Half BDSM. I am making that turn to the right to BDSM. To become more BDSM in my life now.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Unless something is abuse, our motto is "you go ahead"

[09:14] Brianne almost went with 'finger lickin' good ' but that was taken.

[09:14] Ballard: I am happy to hear that the class helped you.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Miss M73, you have the final comment for today!

[09:16] Aspen Diamond: Smiling

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: I think!

[09:16] M73: Oh wow!

[09:16] M73: I believe it is very sensible that a Dominant takes the submissive side occasionally. It is useful to learn how it feels, and I believe it can make one a better Top and a better Dominant. Also, it is great for teaching.

I'd like to emphasize that switching does NOT mean to invalidate one's Dom/me card. It actually means you are so grounded that you can afford to play the submissive role for a bit.

[09:16] M73: I've just been through intense training as a Pony

[09:17] M73: including being locked up etc for a couple of months

[09:17] M73: and it really helped me become a better Trainer,

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: 100..no 110% agreed Miss

[09:17] M73: because I KNOW how it feels to be on the other side of the leash.

[09:17] M73: DONE!

[09:17] Dijana384: nods

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: There are plenty of people that are in general Dominant in their personality who LOVE taking on a Bottom role in a scene

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Just as taking a Top role doesn't mean that a person isn't a Submissive in general

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops at my RL club is also a slave to a Mistress

[09:18] Dijana384: very true Vanni

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Next week we will start a look at some D/s relationships, starting with ... wait for it...M/s!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: The Master/Slave relationship

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: how it differs from D/s in general

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: so be here!

[09:19] Ⲋⲓⲅ Ⲟⲅⲓⲟⲛ: awesome discussion, great comments and questions all around.  Thank you A/all for the wonderful thoughts and insight.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: And please drop some love in the tip jar on the bar to keep our happy home going!