[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.
[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: OK, so welcome back from our week off, we are raring to go! And yes, we are now, at Master Ballard's suggestion, now slated at 90 minutes!
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Our topic today is inspired by CC, who made a comment about subs and motivation a couple weeks ago!
[08:18] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: OH my
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So today we talk about "motivation" and what makes people tick in this lifestyle.
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: We spent the last couple months talking about the various forms of BDSM, and types of subs and Dominants, and various kinds of acts.
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So today we discuss motivation...what makes people get into this lifestyle?
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Why do Dominants like giving orders and being served? Why do some if not most like smacking around willing subbies and bottoms and slaves with various implements of "horror?" (scare quotes intentional)
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: What gets bottoms and subs and slaves wanting that in the first place?
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Why do some people like to serve, and others like to be served?
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Is this a social reflection of biology? Survival of the fittest?
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Or, is there some deeper, maybe some Jungian kind of archetypes at play?
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: A deep psychology that is being reflected?
[08:23] Brianne: please expound on that.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Archetypes, according to Jung, are deep, somewhat "spiritual" forms that exist in a collective consciousness.
[08:23] Sultry nods to Brianne...All of them.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So for example the "King" archetype, the man who leads and cares for his people.
[08:24] RB Quinn thinks he's more the playful Prince archetype
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: That can be expressed in many ways in men in different cultures, but it can be, in Jung's theory, reduced to some form of collective consciousness
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: (I'm hardly doing Jung justice here btw, a one minute explanation)
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Or is it some form of natural order as some believe, some are born to lead, and some are born to serve. That was Aristotle's view in the Ethics.
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: So what do Y/you think?
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: We'll start with Miss Desi please!
[08:30] ღ Desi™ღ Beaumont: its not so much the prince or the king, its the psychology of the father and the child, The father or the Domininat protecter etc and the child or submissive . There are psycoclogical factors af behavioural psychology as well, fight or flight , leader and follower, all in how we have all been socialised in the famility groupings and our instinctual processes as human animals and pack psychology and not so much spirituality, more the humanity or human animal at work in groups in grup dynamics or singually or operating alone
[08:30] ღ Desi™ღ Beaumont: i hope that sounds ok a bit muddled
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: No, it makes perfect sense, Miss Desi!
[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: So you see D/s and the kinds of things we do as forms of behavior that are visible in both animal and human society (as we are mammals after all).
[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: We just do it in more complex ways.
[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: I was actually watching something on wolves not long ago, and wolf males will fight until one makes a signal of submission, then the fighting stops.
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And from that point on, the "winner" is the leader, but it's not so much winning as one accepting the dominance of the other.
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: So I can see a reflection there.
[08:33] Peaches Svenska: when we fight nature..life is much harder
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Of course, that leads back to "are D/s and BDSM some complex social formulation of what's encoded in our brains?" hmmm
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Let's see what others think, thanks for that great start Miss Desi!
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Miss Vivi please!
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: *Vivvy sorry
[08:38] Vivvy: Im not really sure which part determines the dominate or submissive.. But as for me I grew up with no leadership kind of fend for yourself. I swore to be nothing like people in my house hold. Nothing like mother. I endured verbal and physical abuse. And then coming to SL i started to role play as a wolf.. I found how exciting it made me to release rage. Doing things and that is what opened the door to me being dominate or in Bdsm. Before I was just head of my house. I made the decisions and still do. So I think I would have had that leadership in me anyway just not the Bdsm side.
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: In Sociology we talk about "Return to the Familiar," meaning we tend to go back to behaviors and practices that had the deepest impression on us. That's why positive primary socialization in family is so important.
[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: So both positive and negative things can be manifest in us later in life, even if we try hard to avoid them.
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Thus, it's not surprising Miss that you find yourself in the social position of Dominance today, not that you abuse people, but you returned to that familiar form in a more positive way.
[08:41] Vivvy: Right But what is normal and not many people teach how to socialize Oh what is the correct way to do things in Life in homes. At least I do not think they do.
[08:42] Vivvy: I do not think everyone has the same normal.
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Jason please!
[08:43] Sir Jason Oi™: I think the answer to most of those questions is simply wiring. From early childhood I was interested in kink, whether having interrogation scenes with my GI Joes or watching I Dream of Jeanne reruns, it all seemed to make sense to me. Then my preteen and early teen years and while snooping through my parents room found their box of kink toys. To experimenting with another person at the age of 17, and then seeking out kink relationships. Kink and power exchange have always been a part of my life. I definitely am leaning more on the side of nature vs. nurture, but nurture can certainly be a big factor. #
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: I always talk about how it's not "nature vs nurture, " but really "nature AND nurture" in class
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: ok thank You Sir Jason!
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Miss Becky please!
[08:48] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie!
[08:49] Becky Summerland: My motivations are quite simple... I need to care, guide, teach, mentor... Living all of this gives me an opportunity to help another go to the depth of their desires, to explore safely, knowing anytime they call for anything to stop, it will stop and we will explore the feelings that made it stop... The sum of that, and perhaps the biggest motivator is that I get to learn about myself, to answer questions I wouldn't be able to sitting alone on my sofa. Life is a highway, made of stops, slow lanes and fast lanes... I want them all, and as few crashes as possible ;p Still, the best feeling of all comes from helping, enhancing others lives as I got to do this week at a pony competition where I started to coach the last pony in line... she was having horrible times, she had a hard moment, pushing hard at every turn, yet, no improvement from tries to tries... I helped her cut her times by a 3rd and put a smile on her face... she finished 2nd to last, but, the real result, our mutual win, was how much we both
[08:49] Becky Summerland: grew and the resulting mutual feeling of happiness, the connection we shared. I am so proud of her for not giving up, this, her reaction to my guidance, my offer of help, this is the reward to me as a dominant.#
[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: What a nice story, Miss Becky!
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: And so you manifest your inner drive to care and nurture for people in a way that's certainly kinky, but fits the bill.
[08:51] Sir Jason Oi™: Wonderful Becky! Love that comment.
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: I like that!
[08:51] Becky Summerland: btw, my pony finished 3rd after having been 2nd for a long part of the competition ♥
[08:51] RB Quinn applauds Becky -- smiling because he sees himself in her description
[08:51] Becky Summerland: I am so very proud of her too
[08:52] Becky Summerland: I hope she reads this in the transcript ;p
[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Very good story and speaks to motivation in a clear way, thanks Miss Becky!
[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go to Blondie! You're up Brianne!
[08:54] Brianne: ok, here goes nothin'. Please enjoy my word salad...
[08:54] Brianne: I keep coming back to the belief that every person serves others and themselves in pretty much similar proportions. However, some people, like me, love to bring happiness but don't enjoy 'responsibilities'. That's who I am, and with practice, I learn the truth of that more and more. We all have different talents and if were lucky we have a social order that accommodates them all. Xaara is such a place, or aspires to be. 'serving' used to be more fashionable than it seems to be now where everyone is supposed to be 'doing it all' but I think we lost something when we let humility become old-fashioned. Dominants 'give' as well, but the difference in style is significant. Warp and weft together make the tapestry.
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: You're so right!
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I think of English gentried society, back in the good old days, where the concept of butler or lady in waiting were not seen as some kind of inferior or demeaning roles, but were noble and required
[08:56] Brianne: yes!
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, families passed down those roles to subsequent generations
[08:56] Becky Summerland: but, I feel like roles in society were better defined than they are now
[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: That's very true Miss
[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Maybe we are the kinky heirs to that gentried lifestyle :P
[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I mean we do call people "Sir" "Miss" "Master" "Mistress" etc
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: IN fact, I was just re-reading a James Bond book by Fleming recently
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: And I was impressed how James Bond *likes* being subservient to M, his superior at the Ministry. He *likes* making M happy with his work. But no one would call Bond a weak kneed fop of a fellow.
[09:00] Brianne: interesting!
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: (The book Bond is very different from the movie Bond)
[09:00] Becky Summerland: he knew his place in all things, there is a beauty in humility, when one doesn't abuse their position, no matter what it is
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!
[09:00] Brianne: yes!
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Look what you did Brianne, you made us think! :P
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for the comment, well said.
[09:01] Sultry: C
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to CC who gave me the motivation to do this discussion topic!
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please CC.
[09:02] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I think this discussion has moved away from the more focused points I made a few weeks ago.
I'm not a behaviorist but that said, I don't mind people using using behaviorist methods in D/s. It's part of the idea of power exchange. So it's fine.
But as a motivator in general, the idea that we use rewards and punishments with people is very problematic. Most experiments into behaviorism are done on animals in cages who have been starved then rewarded with food to do something. The question is, does this generalize to people?
[09:02] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: People have much higher level of cognition than a starving rat in a cage. There is also a lot of evidence that much of how we think and behave is attributable to structures in the brain. Chomsky's research into linguistics is a good example of this. We are not the blank slates that John Locke and the behaviorist would have us believe. Our ability to create and use language is determined by structures in the brain, so is our ability bond and form relationships with others. What we have pre programmed into our brains provides intrinsic basis for motivation. This motivation can be shaped by environments conditions. From here, we can get into what's called structural and post structural thought on how we construct our reality through language and how that influences our behaviors.
[09:02] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: My original comments were exploring the use of rewards, (external motivators) vs intrinsic motivators. Does a Dom need to reward their subs with statements such as, "good job!" or does the sub do it from an intrinsic love for their domme/dom? It feels good to be praised but then, doing things for the Dom to get that praise takes attention from the original reason a sub has to be in service to them. A person is more motivated to do something for the joy of it instead of doing it for an external reward,even if its praise.
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: All good points, CC, and I've not thought, that at least in SL, that conditioning doesn't really apply.
[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Brianne, as you have a comment at CC's remarks
[09:05] Brianne: I've thought about that a LOT and I can't weigh one over the other. I often get se;f satisfaction form my role, but hearing "good girl" puts me overt the moon too. How could I choose between these? I can't really, I shoot for both.
[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: CC is right though that we aren't really the pure "blank slate" that Locke talked about, waiting to be filled by society.
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Rather we enter this world with a whole slate of pre-formed structures that will affect future outcomes
[09:07] Sir Jason Oi™: Society encompasses A LOT
[09:07] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: and ti think its ok to be happy with praise from your dom and refer to my opening statements
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: That said, what we experience has a LOT of effect on how neurological pathways in the brain are formed
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: so it's back to nature AND nurture
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: You made several really good points, CC, I always appreciate your knowledge and what you bring to this discussion.
[09:09] Becky Summerland: C @ CC
[09:09] Becky Summerland: CC, your comment brings me to wonder, I do have to admit I prefer someone who has at least a basic knowledge of who they are, what they want out of life, hence have goals and all the set of needs and wants that come with them... Anyone 'doing' only to please an exterior influence will eventually crumble as nothing they do is based on anything solid? So, I believe it would reside in a good balance between 'willingness and reward'?
[09:11] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Rewards tend to undermine intrinsic basis for motivation, the more you use them the more they are needed
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: All that matters is the reward, not the motivation.
[09:12] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: rewards even decrease the person's intrinsic enjoyment in doing something
[09:13] Sir Jason Oi™: Increase the rewardingness
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: But at the same time, humans are not biological automations. We might do something we don't like to get a pleasant reward, but that doesn't mean we actually now *like* the unpleasant thing.
[09:13] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: reduced their enthusiasm and even degrades performance
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: I don't particularly like working lol...but the money reward is nice :P
[09:13] Sir Jason Oi™: Keep the rewards sparing?
[09:14] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: or not at all
[09:14] Jo Silverwing: Is it possible that as a relationships becomes more complex that the reward structure does as well.
[09:14] Peaches Svenska: agreed Vanni..I do not find CCs concept to be true in my experience..I am the same, whether i know there is a reward coming or not
[09:14] Brianne: rewards are feedback about the OTHER person's mental state so without it, there's no relationship.
[09:14] Vivvy: I find that hard. Because I do feel we have to give Us to our Submissive as they give to Us. May sound crazy.
[09:15] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I'm going on reading a lot of research
[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: I think CC's point is that if the sub comes to expect a reward every time they "do good," then what they're doing is serving for the reward rather than from the heart. Is that right, CC?
[09:15] Brianne nods in agreement with Miss Vivvy
[09:16] Becky Summerland: it is hard Vivvy, well, life can be in general, its a mix of what 80% water and many past experiences molding a multitude of reactions
[09:16] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Brianne, there is a difference between feedback and reward
[09:16] Brianne: in what way?
[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: ok ok, we are going to get into a giant psychological discussion here :P
[09:16] Brianne: I think reward is a subtype of feedback
[09:17] Becky Summerland: I just got a memo, we could go to 120 minutes lol
[09:17] Brianne: so is punishment
[09:17] Vanni Cannoli blows the whistle TWEEEEET
[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you CC, as usual your comments are interesting and provoke good discussion!
[09:17] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Feedback gives information, verble rewards are emotional rewards, such as praise.
[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: ok Sir Jason please!
[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: I think lol
[09:18] Sir Jason Oi™: Yes we Dominants serve as well. I'll use a car analogy...Your car "serves" you buy taking you all the places you need to go, to keep your car in top condition to be able to serve you you have to do proper and scheduled maintenance. Without serving the needs of your car, your car your car can't serve you and will eventually break down. To cc's question, some people talk to their cars and say things like "Good girl." It's all part of maintenance for those people. S-types please forgive me for referring to you as cars, but driver starts with "D" for Dominant and it's fun to make the tires of a car squeal.#
[09:20] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: But Sir jason, maintenance in the context of of power exchange, which is different than more general situations in some respects by you can even over do it inD/s
[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: That's a good point Sir about the dynamic relationship
[09:21] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Which is what I talked about above. I you apply the same principles raising children or as a boss in the workplace, you then get into trouble
[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sir Jason!
[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you've been waiting a while, please go ahead!
[09:22] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,
I think the Arstote's view of the form of natural order is me. There are leaders and followers. Depending on the followers are submissive or slave. We have that need to serve or be served. Miss Desi has hit that right on the head of the psychology and the social up bring in the family group. The flight or fight is real in all of us. But it is our nature to fight. When I turned 16, and driving I was making up my rules of order. My parents knew that I could manage by making up my rules of conduct. I became the dominate and followed them. If my girlfriends and I were out I told their parents that we would be in by midnight. So I guess I had that as being a leader before I knew I was really missing being controlled by a higher being. My childhood was good.
Vanni, that is also human nature that when we know that we can not continue on with that Dominate that is the sign of submission of opening up your neck to the dominate of excepting his/her control order for me. . With Sir Jason and GI
[09:22] Aspen Diamond: JOe and I had Barbie and Ken.
I have always loved the history of The Rome Empire. I love teaching it to my World history class I do on it. I know in an afterlife I was a pleasure slaves of the castles. I think that is why I fit into Gor at the time when I started SL.
Thank you Miss Becky for your view. I have to make games for myself to motivate me at home being with out a D/s relationship. It does work. At work is a whole more interesting because I can lead and motivate others.
I have found that learning who I am here at Xaara is so special to me and being myself now and more relaxed with not having rage or upkeep problems from the past. It is with great help that I have here with great people who helps me travel the high waves of my life here.
It is when we call a Dominate Master, Sir, Mistress, Miss it is a sign of respect for them as they would respect me. I always had a good habit and still do that so is that Old World or combine New World order with that?
CC, Rewards are what I crave for, I
[09:22] Aspen Diamond: think any one loves the rewards they get. and that is out of respecting each other. It is also the consent of that D/s relationship is all about also. If you give and give and give but the other half does nothing then is it worth it for all of the motivating you did? What is the reward of that? Heart Break, not feeling worthier of yourself or go into depression. You need the rewards on how they are given.
Some Dominants I have ran into likes building their houses on sand then a soiled ground. They want it to fall who builds it on sand. The Dom them can blame the sub. Not a good mix.
Back rewards are good and a pleasing motivation like leading with a carrot on the string. If you do this and this then you get a good reward and if you don't you get a punishment rewards. If that works and it does to some of us subs then it works. Yes, I do need Scheduled maintenance like a spanking at least once a day LOL.
[09:22] Sir Jason Oi™: I mean using that analogy you could argue that instead of just doing maintenance you could then get into souping up your car and making it built to suit your taste in purpose for the car do you want an offroad vehicle or a race car?
[09:23] Aspen Diamond: We had a behavior chart with the kids. and Yes you do get into trouble.
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Wow Aspen, you got a comment on everyone's comment! :P
[09:25] Aspen Diamond: Yes Vanni I could not stop my fingers from typing. Giggling
[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB you have a question?
[09:25] RB Quinn: (Umm... this was a Q @ CC, so it's maybe stale, but I am still wondering...) I am perhaps profligate with my praise (always justified, but my threshold is low). Should I be concerned about the negative effects this has on my subs?? #
[09:25] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: People are conditioned to do things just for the rewards
[09:26] Sultry: But not all succumb to that conditioning.
[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: CC I'll have to disagree with that (as our resident Sociologist here) only in the way that human behavior cannot be reduced to a single cause.
[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: No one acts *only* to get a reward, it's part of a myriad set of things that drive a particular behavior.
[09:27] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Sir RB, research has shown that excessive praise lessons the enjoyment and original intrinsic reasons for doing a service.
[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: And certainly can be a big part
[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: The expectation of reward can certainly overshadow other motivations.
[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: let's quickly go through the rest of the comments here. Sultry, please!
[09:28] Sultry: Thanks, Vanni! During my first marriage I was basically the one in charge. He was a good provider and father but he was not capable, or perhaps comfortable, being the one in charge. It fell to me and I found it a struggle and kept wishing he would take charge. I was 19 at that time and I was unaware of the lifestyle so had no idea I was leaning towards being submissive. Eventually we divorced and as I got older I realized that I was attracted to older and more dominant men, and those I felt could provide for this underlying need I had for control, as well as my strong desire to want to please. I can be independent and strong when I need to be, but I do prefer the more submissive role in a relationship. Have a I taken time to think about the sociological aspect of it? Have I even thought about environmental influences? Nope, I have not. Nor have I thought about any other influences other than I simply went with what I felt came naturally to me.....to be submissive.#
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli: Righty, your experiences have definitely affected how you put yourself in the world, Sultry.
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli: Good points thanks Sultry
[09:31] Vanni Cannoli: So Vivian you get the last comment for today
[09:31] Vⅰνⅰaη Ąηη dє мσηтƒσят: Aspen, I love what you said too. I apologize for being late but I Have gotten so much out of this! I can only go by my experience, which is not alot, but I am told I am cherished, I am a treasured gem. I am so grateful for that. I believe the dom/sub is so intrinsic to that couple. and I believe the success is truly in the willingness to learn and grow from each person. I am feeling very grateful this morning. I have to say I feel nothing like a car at all. Just a treasured precious part of Master Simon, where I can rest and feel safe.
[09:33] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Vivian, OK Miss Lisa, you are really the last comment :P
[09:33] Lisa Summerland: Thank you Vanni…………..Vivvy’s comment reminded me that I too swore to be nothing like people in my house hold. And in time I came to forgive them as I now believe they were only doing the best that they could or were ever going to be able to do, as a result of their Childhood Socialization, even though I still abhor their behaviour. My controlling Military Father abusively dominated rather than raised us.... My submissive mother meekly obeying.... I lost count of the times I told myself that their behaviours were perfect examples of what not to do.. What was real was lived at home and the false face and act was what was lived in public and church every time the doors were opened...... I swore to never be under the abusive hand of a Dominant, and all my life I have done my best to be the opposite of what I grew up in and instead being a loving, caring Dominant and enabling and enhancing all those in all my relationships to the best of their potential and to my abilities….
[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: it's important to remember that Return to the Familiar is a *trend*, it's not an absolute
[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: my mother was HORRIBLE with managing money
[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: so in seeing how she did it, I went in exactly the opposite direction, managing money wisely
[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: as I didn't want to end up in the same situation she often put us in
[09:34] Vanni Cannoli: So we hopefully learn from the past to make the present and future better
[09:35] Aspen Diamond: I don't feel like a car but our attitudes do need check on to make sure we are where we supposed to be .
[09:35] Vanni Cannoli: Well thank Y/you all for that lively discussion!
[09:36] Vanni Cannoli: Please remember to throw some love in the Xaara tip jar to keep our kinky home going if Y/you can!
