[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Leans over and runs
his fingers through his Angel's hair before kissing hte top of her head*
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep
extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I as usual have
some exposition
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I yap, feel
free to put in a C or a Q into the queue
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Then we will get
to your insights!
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we continue
our probe..heh heh...she said probe...of the BDSM acronym and D/s in
particular.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today is a
discussion on the difference between a sub and a slave.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is one of
the more divisive topics one will find in reference to BDSM and D/s.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If you get on a
BDSM forum, website or just talk to the kinky folks live, you'll get twenty
different opinions from twenty different people on what it means to be a
"sub" or a "slave" and whatever is between them.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So there is
obviously no "right answer" here.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What it means to
be a sub, or a slave, or whatever we are, is a deeply personal thing for each
of us.
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But it's always
good to get opinions and ideas about things. It's how we learn.
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As far as
"sub vs slave", I'm sure we all agree there is some differentiation
between the two. What is it?
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it some kind
of quantifiable difference? "I'm a 3 on the slavery index while you're a
9?"
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): pushes
the Sociologist in me back in the box..."Bad index!"]
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it purely
qualitative...if a person *feels* they are a slave or a sub, they are?
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it something
that requires people outside to look at a person and say "you are a
sub/slave/whatever?"
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if a person
is a sub or a slave, how do they approach BDSM differently, how do people
around them act differently?
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And...one final
thought...what is it that attracts Dominants to a certain kind of person...sub
to slave? What are the expectations?
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will not give
my opinion on this now, I want to hear the ideas of the August Assembly.
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, when y'all
are ready, drop a C or a Q in the queue!
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan we will
start with you when ready!
[15:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): This is my personal
opinion on the matter, and full disclosure I came into BDSM and D/s from a
Gorean RP background first. So I have a hard time with the concept of
"Slave". As we look at it both
legally and even in the scope of BDSM, a 'slave' would still have legal rights
(you can't legally own a slave, nor remove their rights), and from a BDSM
perspective we respect the aspect of Consent, and Limits and Safewords. In a
'true' sense of the word 'slave' there would be no right to 'not consent' to an
action or limits, or use of a safeword.
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): No one can be a
slave in any legal sense. And human
rights still apply to every human, regardless of what they choose to call
themselves.
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I also agree
that slavery does not impart "more kinkiness" to a person
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Subs can be very
kinky! So can slaves!
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All well said
Johan, thank you for that spot on comment to lead us off.
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mansoor you are
up when ready please
[15:56] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so... after
reading Johan's comment.... i think that being a slave is a state of mind
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree
completely! As a follow up what do you
see as the different state of minds are between the sub and the slave?
[15:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): That was something
that popped into my head after I hit enter and was thinking as well. Perhaps the use of 'slave' as a identifier is
more of a 'degredation' play for the parties involved? That the idea of less
will and control or being 'forced' into the servitude is at play?
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (remember there
is no "right answer" here...we are all here to ponder and give
opinions)
[15:58] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): for the
period of the scene... she will doas told.....ofc given the limnits... whereas
the sub....she will do the scene only after negociation
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One thing I do
think is that the Gorean idea of a slave is not necessarily what the folks
around here would call a 'slave.' Gor is
a specific kind of RP.
[15:59] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Very true
[15:59] Angela (MadamA Himmel): I agree with Vanessa
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have a RL
friend who identifies as a "slave" to her Master and she is now a
middle management person with Starbucks.
[16:00] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): She's definitely into
degredation and humiliation working for Starbucks *rimshot*
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Are there
Starbucks on Gor?
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫
rimshot ♫
[16:00] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): if she has
corner office on the 10th floor.. i ll be a window cleaner
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway thanks for
the comments
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is already
getting the thinking flowing!
[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And technically 'no'
as Blackwine in Gor is very regulated and controlled by Thentis.. Though with all the acquisition voyage trips
you'd think they'd smuggle of 100lb bags of coffee beans back.
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus we come to
you please
[16:01] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): The timing on this
discussion is perfect. I've been talking to a lot of subs and slaves lately
about this exact topic. I've picked up a few commonalities in how they view
each other, but I've also come a conclusion of my own.
Those who identify as subs sometimes point to a slave as
someone who has surrendered all agency. Slaves, on the other, sometimes point
to subs as being non-committal. Neither is true, of course. Slaves have limits,
safewords, and all the other trappings that subs reserve for themselves. From a
dominant perspective, I haven't found much difference in the labels, apart from
self identification. Some subs want to be treated like they have no rights,
some slaves are very adamant on their limits. Neither is wrong.
In my view, it all comes down to, like most things in a BDSM
relationship, what works for the people involved. If the word 'slave' does
something for your mindset, use it. If that label is uncomfortable for you,
don't use it. And never use that term in front of a law enforcement officer.
[16:02] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *claps*
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *claps*
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!!
[16:02] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): *nods*
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and spot on
there...NEVER use BDSM honorifics around police or health professionals or any
person who is a mandated reporter]
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If they hear
that....trouble is coming.
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and as for the
rest, also spot on Magnus
[16:05] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): As your
slave, I feel like I'm fine with how things are between us, even though in my
own vision of things I'd call myself your sub. I like my limits, I have my
kinks and i'm lucky those align with stuff we agree upon when deciding about a
scene. And to be completely honest, I call myself a slave in your presence
only. :o
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see the
differentiation as largely the way people view themselves.
[16:05] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I
have known LEOs that were in the Lifestyle and knew the difference and while at
dungeons not in a LEO capacity they don't do anything
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said
thank you!!
[16:05] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Sorry
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh yes I agree
Jason...we have LAPD come around our dungeon
[16:06] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): But
they know, ya know?
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but you don't
want to say that in front of cops you *don't* know
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or at the
doctor's office, etc
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think after we
finish the BDSM acronym we'll move to a discussion one Sunday on "Being
Kinky in a Vanilla World"
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): where this will
come into play
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): for now...thanks
for your insight Magnus!
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rachel you are up
please
[16:08] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Here is a perspective
from a sub/slave...yes both are true for me....looks towards Sir Magnus with a
gentle smile and then around at the others....
[16:08] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): short and sweet...I
hope
[16:08] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Isn't it more
important is how the relationship is defined within a Master and Sub/slaves
encounters or scenes? For me...inside a
more intimate scene...it's like I am a slave without any rights to what or who
I am and follow where I am taken...and that's usually into a sub zone I call a
cocoon...that is a place for me of peace and no pain in RL. This is something both my Master and I agree
to and try to get me there.
[16:09] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): But outside of that I
am a sub with rights to respectfully decline certain offers or things from
other dominants that don't have the rights to anything more than what my Master
allows.
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that's a
great way to look at it Rachel!
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with the
Buddha -- the "us" of here and now is predicated on the time, place
and context of here and now.
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do Buddhist
mantras all the time to clear my mind...and calm down when driving and the
Sicilian in me starts coming out..... ;)
[16:11] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): applauds the Buddha reference.
[16:12] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its a perfect
reference and a good meditation/relaxation technique :)
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes!
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rachel what you
said was great
[16:13] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): nods
her head and softly says "Thank you Miss Vanni"
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And definitely
shows that being a sub or a slave is a manifestation of the moment.]
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason-Lenore, you
are up please!
[16:13] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Thank
you Vanni. To me I think the difference comes down to mindset of the
individual. In my experience, both online and offline for decades, a slave
seems to be much more devoted to service, like vast amounts. A submissive may
enjoy service but they don't seem to be dedicated to serving in the same way,
like it's a driving need akin to the way a vampire has that hunger and drive
for blood for the majority of self identified slaves.
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!
[16:14] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Ooh, I
didn't think about that! Well said!
[16:14] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): The scope
of service vs needs
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think a way to
parse that is that for the sub, service is part of the scene...whereas for the
slave, service is integral to their devotion to their Dom
[16:15] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I
would venture to say that for slaves service is a need
[16:15] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Although,
isn't desiring to serve a kind of need by itself?
[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I respectfully
disagree. To say that a 'slave' is more
devoted to service than a Sub does a disservice to those who DO have that same
dedicating and desire to serve in the same way, that do not identify as
'slave'.
[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): That goes back into a
"Who's more kinky" mindset.
[16:15] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *smiles to her
Master agreeing*
[16:16] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): smiles
"time and place is a factor for sub vs slave"
[16:16] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I
would venture to say that those submissives may be more slave-like than they
may think.
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's also a
good point
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and certainly
service is just one component to the whole thing
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's a package
not a single point after all
[16:17] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Ah, I love that we
got to hear from you, Jason. I think we're hitting on some of the difference
between old-guard and new-guard.
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I reject that
humans are binary in *anything*
[16:17] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): As
for who is kinkier, that would be me.
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I didn't mean it and don't think Jason-Lenore
meant it as an 'either/or' Johan
[16:18] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):
Agreed Vanni about there are no absolutes
[16:19] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Just
speaking from my experience
[16:19] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No, but it directly
brings up the 'who is more submissive' who is 'more kinkier' argument/debate,
which comes up and truly doesn't belong in our community(the overall BDSM
community, not Xaara specific)
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Autumn needs to
get to RL so we are going to up her to next so she can get going.
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!
[16:19] Aυţυмη нαuι
(AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Thank you
[16:19] Aυţυмη нαuι
(AutumnRaineSkye Resident): I also come into BDSM and D/s from a Gorean
background. While I know legally there
can not be slaves, for me personally, I feel I am submissive in general. But,
that runs deeper with my Master, so in my head, I feel more of his slave, while
I do know I have rights, and a say, I also know my devotion to him is far
deeper than what I normally feel as a submissive. I guess if I had to try to define the
difference other than my mindset, or my heart, I would say it's more of a TPE
relationship as a slave for me, than a sub.
Done.
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now see...that is
what I think is the real differentiation!
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Power exchange is
a spectrum
[16:20] Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye
Resident): Nods
[16:20] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): nods
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): From
"None" to "Total"
[16:20] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): nods
[16:20] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): agree with Autumn
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): subs tend to be
lower on the spectrum, slaves higher...but again...time and place and context
matter
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so a sub can have
that TPE with their Dominant while being rather low with others
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as my RL friend
shows easily
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said
Autumn..thanks...now off to RL with you!
[16:22] Aυţυмη нαuι
(AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Thank you Miss Vanni!
[16:22] Aυţυмη нαuι
(AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Waves and poofs
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *barks the order
with a giggle*
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Angela we come to
you please!
[16:22] Angela (MadamA Himmel): thank you Vanessa, I come at
this topic from a female that practices FLR (Female Led Relationship) in
Europe, and never have or will be on the submissive/slave side of the equation.
The approach to all of "this" in Europe is also different as is the
vernacular. We don't even use the word "submissive" in Germany. While
I use the word "submissive" for ease of communication in the
"Lifestyle" with English speakers, there is no submissive / slave in
my world, only the dynamic of "I am the Alpha, he or she is the
Beta", in other words, only people(s) that serve in whichever way I
desire. It may include D/s or BDSM, or Kink, it may not. From a Femdom
perspective, I don't care how they identify. I watch, observe, listen and form
my own point of view and then it is measured against my own Framework. Like
Johan said, slavery is not reality, to me it is RP, and since I tend to move in
the world of 1st Life & SL as a female top, reality is very important to
me. When I deal with a "self-identified slave" (dungeon /
[16:22] Angela (MadamA Himmel): situational interactions exempt) I actually
test this. It generally does not hold up, so eventually everyone agrees that it
is about service, or serving, or kink or BDSM, rather than the label. Makes it
difficult of course, in a world that thrives on labels, but I think clarity in
that regard (for self or to others) is a must .... rather than just throwing
out the words of "submissive" and "slave" to get your cock
stepped on or boobs whipped :) ... and? living the "life" in the
vanilla world is awesome #
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ooo I like all
that!]
[16:24] Angela (MadamA Himmel): nods
[16:24] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Excellent
observations, Angela.
[16:24] Angela (MadamA Himmel): thank you
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Are
"Top" and "Bottom" terms used in Europe?
[16:25] Angela (MadamA Himmel): yes
[16:25] Angela (MadamA Himmel): "sklave" (slave)
in a Dungeon setting
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cool!
[16:26] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): learned
a German word today.
[16:26] Angela (MadamA Himmel): smiles
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Always love the
fact we get a cross-cultural group of people here so we can learn from each
other
[16:26] Angela (MadamA Himmel): nods
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much
Angela!
[16:26] Angela (MadamA Himmel): my pleasure
[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Me as well, its
always interesting to see the difference between European BDSM/Ds and what we
do in the States
[16:27] Angela (MadamA Himmel): oh yes, and I do try to tone
it down :)
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Breanne you are
up please!
[16:28] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): I think what I
am thinking is kinda in line with what Rachel said.
[16:28] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): As someone that
is pretty new to this, I may have a viewpoint as an outsider. In my opinion Sub and Slave are 2 completely
seperate things. For me a Sub is more of
state of mind or personality trait.
Where everyone whether or not may be have sub tendancies or even dom
ones and many may have both. Where I feel
a slave is where someone willingly gives up some type of mental or physical
control to their partner. So in summary,
Sub is more of a state of mind and slave is a choice. As a
saying, not all Subs are slaves, but all slaves are subs. But even that has exception to the rules as I
am sure there are a few with a more Dom Personality but chooses to be a
slave. Hence the Term Topping from the
Bottom.
[16:28] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): I feel like
Top and dom aren't the same thing, likewise for bottom and sub or its
declinations
[16:28] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): I am pretty
vanilla, and don't consider myself a slave.
As I am not looking to give up control but over the years, between a
medium I used about 10-12 years ago, to my now recent return to some place like
SL that I have discovered that I do have some pretty submissive tendencies, but
is not something that is prevalent all the time.
[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Would you say then
that you consider "Slavery" a 'type' of Submissive?
[16:29] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): how much of
ourselves we give up is a big part of the separation
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right
[16:30] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): As I said, they
are linked, but I think they different, but a true slave would be submissive
[16:30] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): nods
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see it as going
back to the spectrum of increasing power exchange
"Bottom-----Sub------Slave"
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see it as going
back to the spectrum of increasing power exchange
"Bottom-----Sub------Slave"
[16:31] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): If that
question was for me, Johan, then yes, I consider "sub" to be an
umbrella term that encompasses slaves and many mores, like, pet, pup, degradee,
etc...
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but where that is
for each person is their own social-psychological viewpoint
[16:31] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): People don't
have a choice is they are submissive or Dom, it is part of them, but being a
slave is concsious choice
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and what if one
is a switch? *grins and sips coffee*
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): picks
up the monkey wrench I just tossed out
[16:32] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): hush Miss Vanni...that
is my question
[16:32] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): Well as I said,
Sub and Dom not absolutes, I believe everyone in right context can be both
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!
[16:32] Seli (Seliara Elton): awards
Vanni one psychic point
[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Only Siths deal in
Absolutes
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Master
Kenobi! ;)
[16:33] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): For example, in
personal life, I have ore sub tendancies but in my professional life, more Dom
[16:33] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): fires
up his red lightsaber and sips his vodka.
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks for that
Beanne! Welcome to Xaara by the way!
[16:35] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): looks
towards Miss Vanni with laughter dancing in her eyes and then says:
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We always
appreciate good folks here :)
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rachel you are up
please
[16:35] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I don't mean to sound
stupid...but stupid is as stupid does and all that jazz as I ask my
question....Is there such a thing as a sub/slave switch in BDSM? What do the Dom think or the sub/slave think?
[16:35] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): By the way...I am a
professional in my field of RL work and am a Regional Manager that do make
decisions that affect others and their lives.
[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So I think the aspect
that others have brought up are closer to the 'sub slave' switch Rachel.
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it's what
Autumn said, Rachel
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and you as well
[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i didnt
realize it Rachel said it
[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Where a person may
have a lesser degree of 'submission in regards to a certain person' whereas
have 'more submission' to their Owner/Master
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person can be a self-defined slave to their Dominant
and a self-defined sub to other Dom s.
[16:37] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): nods...but is it
accepted as such
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hi-5s
Johan
[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It’s as accepted as
anything else is in our (overall) community :)
[16:37] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): okay...I am new to
this too
[16:37] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): do you mean
switching between sub and slave, or a sub/slave who switches?
[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): proves one
point absolutely: no question is stupid
[16:38] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I mean within the
individual person being a switch between sub/slave
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well, what others
accept or don't is largely immaterial...it's what the D-type and the S-type
feel is right in context with any others allowed access to said S-type
[16:38] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^ The only stupid
questions are the ones unasked that lead to miscommunication
[16:38] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Well. You
could say I am one, so, yes c:
[16:38] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): I am
actually both, lol. a switch, a sub and a slave.
[16:39] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *claps agreeing
with Miss Vanni*
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nice Lesky!!
[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And to which, this
goes back to my first post; self
identification is most important. How
you identify is valid to your identity.. Unless you identify as Vanni and are
NOT vanni. There is only one Vanessa
Cannoli :)
[16:39] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Thank you
Miss Vanni :p
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank god
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok let's move on
we have two more comments in the queue
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason-Lenore back
to you!
[16:41] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Thank
you Vanni. Again I was not saying it as a competition or who is kinkier/more
submissive. I was simply stating my experience with self-identified submissives
and slaves in both first and second life. certainly there have been outliers in
both worlds and on both sides of the s/s debate. I never intended for anyone to
think that it was a one being better than the other. So I hope it didn't come
across that way.
[16:41] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): of course Xaara is an exception where service
to the community is much more encouraged.#
[16:42] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): nods.
Good points.
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason I only
meant that in terms of the power exchange.
When I top at the club, the power exchange is limited to the hour or so
with very rigid negotiation. Very low
power exchange there. Subs and slaves
give up more for longer periods.
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I was not
implying a direct line to sub or slave
[16:44] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): IMO, top
and bottom can apply to vanilla as well. So the line between bottom and sub is
a blurry thing since it is basically the same thing, but sub is 100% applicable
in a kink context whereas bottom may not.
[16:44] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): nods
[16:44] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Just
didn't want any others to be confused.
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh sure
[16:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm not sure I agree
with that reasoning either. Under that
'Dominants who dedicate themselves to their community and providing serve'
would = slaves?
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in vanilla sex or
relationship there is usually one who is more "alpha" so to speak
[16:45] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Also
there is the difference between Top and bottom in the gay community
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Service in a BDSM
context is not quite the same as a person doing good for a community IMO
[16:46] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): nods in agreement
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or the local
priest, pastor, rabbi or imam is a slave *grins*
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): goes to
get Father Jim to mop my floor
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (great Priest
from my Catholic days...I loved Father Jim)
[16:49] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'll use more
examples... I have friends in the Ft. Lauderdale leather scene. They teach instructional classes on Cigar
Play, Breath Play, Host Leather Nights, Boot blacking seminars/classes, None of them identify as 'slave' even to
their Dominant.
[16:49] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):
Service to the BDSM community in a BDSM context without expectation of reward I
would think qualifies
[16:51] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): throws
"servant leadership" on the floor and runs away.
[16:51] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I don't associate
myself as a slave when I attend events that support this community
[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do not think
anyone is denigrating the concept of service from anyone.
[16:51] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): or when I donate
[16:51] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I do it because me as
a person enjoys helping
[16:52] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No, but to say that
"Slaves" are more prone to serving and volunteering to their
community than submissives, I think is a flawed viewpoint.
[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Everyone should
serve their community, that's part of communitarianism.
[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Point taken!
[16:52] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): shurgs...done with my
2 cents worth of unsolicited comments
[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason go ahead
then we'll go to Magus for a final comment
[16:52] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I
have been involved in a few Leather communities and there are lots that do not
identify as a slave and some that do. Also 'slave' in Leather is akin to
Master, it is generally reserved for those that have achieved a certain level
of recognition for their dedication to the community, so boy, girl and slave
are honorifics of their own in the Leather community.#
[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods
[16:53] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): nods.
And the Leather community has their own very strict definitions for those
roles.
[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): We do
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the Leather Scene
is definitely much more structured than a lot of what other folk in the
lifestyle do. And everyone has the niche
in which they fit, that's the beauty of what we do.
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We can all agree
or disagree and then move on with how we do things. :)
[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): nods
[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus you have the
floor for the last comment of the day!
[16:55] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I'm glad that
Breanne brought up the mobility of hierarchy and our place in it. Often lately,
I've heard terms like Alpha, Beta, and even Sigma tossed around as being
indicators of social status or as a sort of dominance measurement. Consider
this a public service announcement: The whole Alpha, Beta, etc. thing as a
constant in one's life is a pop psychology idea that was disproven decades ago.
We all move through different social roles several times each day.
[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!
[16:56] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): I agree
with Master here, as I was gonna make a comment on that earlier but failed to
put words on it lol
[16:56] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): nods
lots
[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Role and status
(as a social position) change constantly
[16:56] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): I agree very
much so with that
[16:56] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): well said
[16:56] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): lips
curl up in a grin at the chest thumping gorilla moves
[16:57] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Heh. The only place
for chest-thumping gorilla moves is in roleplay.
[16:57] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): laughs and nods
[16:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And from a IT
Development Standpoint "Alpha" means still flawed and needing
revision, not ready for release into the wild ;)
[16:57] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): i love
gorilla's
[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Besides...as a
switch...i know what gets my heart thumping is not the savage barked order but
the quiet gesture and 'come here'
[16:57] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): True
Vanni, I have never and will never kneel at your feet, however here I submit to
your leadership of the conversation.
[16:58] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Beta testing for dom ?
[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): cracks
the whip
[16:58] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): Wow, never heard
it put like that, never put one and one together
[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): winks
at Jason-Lenore
[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you Magnus
[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you all
for the polite, well reasoned discussion
[16:58] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Thank you, all.
This has been a wonderful discussion.
[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even when we
disagree we all still respect each other and THAT is the important part of this
community]
[16:59] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thank you
Vanessa
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