[2021/05/09 08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[2021/05/09 08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[2021/05/09 08:17] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[2021/05/09 08:17] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[2021/05/09 08:17] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.
[2021/05/09 08:18] Vanni Cannoli: OK, today we continue our discussion of types of D/s relationships, and come to one we did discuss about 18 months ago, "The Brat"
[2021/05/09 08:18] Doxie Sixpence: hi Candice :)
[2021/05/09 08:19] Vanni Cannoli: The "Brat Sub" is one of the most misunderstood and often denigrated kind of submissive out there, and definitely causes a love/hate kind of reaction
[2021/05/09 08:20] Vanni Cannoli: They are believed to simply be "attention getters" and not really submissive at all.
[2021/05/09 08:21] Vanni Cannoli: On the other hand, there are Dom/mes that LOVE having bratty type submissives under their control...if you can call it "control"
[2021/05/09 08:23] Vanni Cannoli: What I'd like to ask our assembly is 1) Are you a brat or do You have a brat on Your hands? 2) What is being a "brat" about as opposed to other kinds of submissive, and 3) What are the pros and cons of this style of D/s? Y/you can feel free to answer those, or bring up Y/your own view on bratty behavior.
[2021/05/09 08:23] Vanni Cannoli: BTW I do want to differentiate "Brat" from "cheeky".
[2021/05/09 08:24] Vanni Cannoli: The cheeky sub is a bit sarcastic and has a mind of their own, but is not being what most people would consider a "real brat".
[2021/05/09 08:24] Vanni Cannoli: When you see a brat, or if you are a brat, you KNOW that sub is a brat.
[2021/05/09 08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Miss Becky we'll start with You please!
[2021/05/09 08:26] Becky Summerland: My first comment about brats is that, they can be playful, entertaining, they do animate a room, but, dang, they can be a handful... a brat has to know when to tone it down, otherwise, they become draining and will use the fact they are a brat to justify anything. I love brats, I have some friends who are amazing brats, but they all have in common this thing... when I say okay, calm down, they are able to go back to what I call 'normal' mode. #
[2021/05/09 08:27] Vanni Cannoli: I agree Miss Becky, there are bratty subs that will use that moniker to justify almost any act as "what did you expect?"
[2021/05/09 08:27] Vanni Cannoli: But most do know when it's going too far and will tone it down.
[2021/05/09 08:28] StevieBlue: But what is bratty behavior?
[2021/05/09 08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Here I'll give you an example I read about a while ago in a bit of reading on this
[2021/05/09 08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Master looks at his girl and says "Go make coffee."
[2021/05/09 08:29] Vanni Cannoli: She says "OK!"
[2021/05/09 08:29] Vanni Cannoli: She gets up, goes in the kitchen, Master can smell the coffee being made.
[2021/05/09 08:29] Vanni Cannoli: She comes back in the living room and sits down.
[2021/05/09 08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Master says "Hey, where's my coffee?"
[2021/05/09 08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Brat looks at him and says "WELL YOU SAID make coffee. You didn't say anything about wanting a cup."
[2021/05/09 08:30] Vanni Cannoli: That's bratty behavior.
[2021/05/09 08:31] Vanni Cannoli: the line will always be "WELL YOU SAID"
[2021/05/09 08:31] Vanni Cannoli: see what's happening with the Brat is they are always a step ahead of the Dom/me
[2021/05/09 08:31] Sam Cabot: Ii would go with go bring my belt, but that's just me. lol
[2021/05/09 08:32] Vanni Cannoli: ah but you see, Sir, that if the Brat knew that it would lead to "funishment" that would be exactly the case
[2021/05/09 08:33] Vanni Cannoli: The article also said that a Dom/mes greatest fear is when their brat is just sitting or kneeling on the floor, looking at them with a smile.
[2021/05/09 08:33] Vanni Cannoli: The proper thought is "what the fuck is coming NOW?
[2021/05/09 08:34] Vanni Cannoli: So I hope that answers the question about "bratty behavior!"
[2021/05/09 08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, You are up please! *kneels and smiles*
[2021/05/09 08:35] Ballard: I'm confused. Being a Master, am I allowed to be confused? Perhaps not. So let me go with 'eclectic', or even better, 'variotous' (which while not a word is a word if I say so, because, well, I'm a Master!). I enjoy women with a strong sense of them selves, a strong personality, and intelligence. I like sassy, smart, and fun. I also want variety. If you know my girls you know they are all very different from each other. All that said, I have my own definition of brats.
I am not fond of being openly contradicted, insulted, and denied. Brat to me was always a negative term, because to me it means disrespectful, even hurtful, as a way of topping from the bottom and taking control. I have seen it used as a way for a sub to dictate terms of the relationship. I realize that there is a less pejorative version of 'brat'. Playful, sassy, smart, I like. Defiant, disobedient, insulting, I do not.
((The reciprocal on Vanni's coffee story is if she brought a cup, he slaps it out of her hand. "I said make it, not bring it." Is that a DBrat?))#
[2021/05/09 08:36] Vanni Cannoli: LOL!!
[2021/05/09 08:37] Vanni Cannoli: What I would say, Master Ballard, is it takes a certain kind of Dominant to deal with a bratty sub. Some just absolutely love them.
[2021/05/09 08:37] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, cheeky, sassy and such is not really "bratty" although some might think as such.
[2021/05/09 08:37] Ballard: It is always a balance, of course
[2021/05/09 08:38] Ballard: compatibility is the key.
[2021/05/09 08:38] Vanni Cannoli: I think there are some Dominants that like the "push" and the unpredictability that a brat brings.
[2021/05/09 08:39] Vanni Cannoli: But in the end, they want to be obeyed, and a bratty sub does in the end want to be Dominanted, it's just a matter of degree from what I can see
[2021/05/09 08:39] Ballard: Also, if I may add.
[2021/05/09 08:40] Ballard: Sometimes a sub will act bratty to test a D, and see if they react in a way that enhances the feeling of submission.
[2021/05/09 08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Right, Master Ballard!
[2021/05/09 08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Also I think it bears mentioning that like anything, "bratiness" exists on a spectrum, from slightly brat to full on, raging brat, and everything in between.
[2021/05/09 08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Master Ballard!
[2021/05/09 08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Laila, go ahead please
[2021/05/09 08:43] Laila Raines: I have often noticed 'bratiness' in the context of the DaddyDom/babygirl dynamic we discussed last week. Does anyone have an example of a brat outside this dynamic?
[2021/05/09 08:43] Ballard: I do.
[2021/05/09 08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead please, Sir.
[2021/05/09 08:45] Ballard: I knew a slave in Gor, many years ago. She liked public whippings and humiliation. Once she saw me strip and whip a free woman, and she bustled right over and begged my collar. I did not right away, but we interacted. She acted out often, trying to get public humiliation, and S&M. She threatened that if she didn't get what she wants she would try to embarrass me.
[2021/05/09 08:46] Ballard: Since then I have made it a huge rule to my girls: "Never do anything to embarrass me."
[2021/05/09 08:46] Vanni Cannoli: I don't think, Master Ballard, she was really a sub at all.
[2021/05/09 08:47] Becky Summerland: not even a brat
[2021/05/09 08:47] Vanni Cannoli: That sounds to me like an attention seeking little prig that used D/s to get what she wanted.
[2021/05/09 08:47] Ballard: I agree.
[2021/05/09 08:47] Vanni Cannoli: That would a real, perfect, textbook case of "Topping from the Bottom" indeed
[2021/05/09 08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Dani, as many of you know, here in Xaara is a self-professed "brat" and she says that bratiness keeps it "interesting" but she also recognizes her submission
[2021/05/09 08:50] Vanni Cannoli: /me sees a couple people typing and waits a moment before going back to Laila's question
[2021/05/09 08:50] Sam Cabot: Once in a while I run into a 'sub' who says something to the effect of "I've been a bad girl, whip me" I tell them it make you a masochist, not a sub.
[2021/05/09 08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, exactly Sir!
[2021/05/09 08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Mea Culpa! Mea maxima Culpa!
[2021/05/09 08:51] Sam Cabot: /me fingers his belt and grins at Vanni.
[2021/05/09 08:52] Vanni Cannoli: /me gets the belt and tosses it in the rubbish bin..."WELL YOU SAID get the belt, you never said what to do with it! I used my best judgment....Master...."
[2021/05/09 08:53] Sam Cabot: Harry, my point was, those "sub's" are ordering me to whip them. THAT is what makes them not subby, not the being bad part.
[2021/05/09 08:54] Vanni Cannoli: So back to Laila, I think the "Babygirl" and the "Brat" might have some crossover, but "Brat" is definitely more stand alone. A sub can be bratty but not have then cute, teen kind of vibe going.
[2021/05/09 08:55] Vanni Cannoli: From what I see of Babygirl, they want to be cherished and nurtured, and being really "bratty" would sort of be pushing from that
[2021/05/09 08:55] Vanni Cannoli: That said, certainly Babygirls can be sassy and "teen like"
[2021/05/09 08:55] Vanni Cannoli: so maybe that's what gets some confusion going.
[2021/05/09 08:55] Vanni Cannoli: I think, I could be really off base lol
[2021/05/09 08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Good question!
[2021/05/09 08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up please!
[2021/05/09 08:57] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,Typing and trying to keep up with text. To try to get things in order. Please forgive me
A little background on me in Real World First:
When I lost my husband to cancer after 24 years living together and he was my soul mate. When I lost him I was lost because I knew I belonged in the lifestyle. I ran into my old band teacher from high school and he told me that he was really a sub. He had me put him over my knees and I spanked with with paddles and my hand. He turned me on to Fetlife.
If I don't have a strong Dom/Master here in Secondlife or Real I will top from the bottom. I can be a little brat and tell the Dom/Master that is not the way to do it. "I would say do this or that in a demanding voice and a little over the top. I once in a while forget I am the sub and become a little rude at times. I need to be called out for my bad behavior and taught what i need to work on becoming a good sub by giving up and surrendering and giving the Dom/Master the structure and control to train me on
[2021/05/09 08:57] Aspen Diamond: how to act. I am learning allot by doing the logs I don't like being disrespectful to any Dom/Master/Mistress which has gotten me into hot water in the past.
I liked what Miss Becky said about brats because I do that. I call it spinning from one point to the other point.. I love that Master Ballard puts it the way he does. I have a strong since of self, I do have a strong personality and trying to educate myself on my intelligence. Yes am sassy, smart, and fun once you really get to know me. Once in a while my top (me) will come out and please forgive for that, a giggle. My humor is very dry at time with a smile.
I will submit to the right Dom/Master on bending knees when he comes along
[2021/05/09 08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, just so you know, you can be both a Top and a Submissive at the same time, just not to the same person.
[2021/05/09 08:58] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops in my RL community is also a slave to their Mistress.
[2021/05/09 08:59] Vanni Cannoli: And Mo/e also has a boi that they are in a kinky relationship with.
[2021/05/09 08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Point is, pure binaries in humanity just don't exist.
[2021/05/09 09:00] Vanni Cannoli: And also, being sassy isn't being "bratty" necessarily
[2021/05/09 09:02] Vanni Cannoli: At the club I have subby boys ask me to beat the f**k out of them...which I'll do, but then I want to make them dinner lol
[2021/05/09 09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway, good points Aspen, as always, thank you!
[2021/05/09 09:03] Brianne: It seems to me that being a brat takes a lot of energy to always be coming up with ways to 'beat' their Dominant. Is that true? Or does brattiness come so naturally that it's the default condition and takes effort to avoid? (I consider myself as 'cheeky', not sure what others see.)
[2021/05/09 09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Actually that's a good question, I think it does take energy to do that, and I have also seen that most brats are usually wired up pretty tight and energetic
[2021/05/09 09:04] Vanni Cannoli: so maybe it's how they release that energy?
[2021/05/09 09:09] Vanni Cannoli: I think the Sassy type is just fun and likes making people laugh, while the Brat is always looking for some limit to push or situation to create some minor chaos, just to keep the dynamic going and "interesting"
[2021/05/09 09:11] Becky Summerland: I believe I've met most of the types of brats... many are high geared, highly brilliant people, some of the best scripters and creators of SL, in BDSM are excellent brats... they need to let poor out that excess of energy... but, they are briliant, so they understand all is in balance... I could go in many shades of the spectrum, some, just need attention and its the way they found to come out of the lot... its how they are noticed in a sea of half naked girls... then, you have the other end, people who are frustrated and cynic, we find them funny and entertaining until their mean side comes out... they are usually very charming at first, they will attract many to them... so, its not one size fits all, but its a resume of the experiences I've had and seen of brats... many amazing people that are often misjudged... come back next week for the follow up ;p
[2021/05/09 09:12] Vanni Cannoli: All very said MIss Becky, and will be saved for posterity on the blog! :)
[2021/05/09 09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I agree with Your view that it's a giant spectrum and never "one size fits all"
[2021/05/09 09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go back to Master Ballard please!
[2021/05/09 09:13] Ballard: .
Becky said:
[08:53] Becky Summerland (Becky Koolhoven): It means not to judge and try to put labels on others Harry ♥ be what you are and be happy love ♥
I really want to support that sentiment. In order to talk about things, which we love to do, we use labels and terms. Yet within each category or term there is a broad spectrum of people. One's person's brat may be someone else's ideal sub. I said some negative things about brats, because I tend to agree that many of them are not really submissives, they just want a specific form of play. That is very unfair to some others that may call themselves a brat, but really do want to be dominated. #
[2021/05/09 09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, I agree there is a difference between the "Bratty, Snarky Bottom" and the Bratty Sub, Master Ballard.
[2021/05/09 09:14] Becky Summerland: Exactly Ballard, like some call themselves dominants are not really... to each their own, unless one is named official police of SL BDSM
[2021/05/09 09:15] Sam Cabot: The important thing is to be who you are and try to educate yourself. We don't need to fit into anyone's definition of anything.
[2021/05/09 09:16] Vanni Cannoli: The Bratty Sub really does want to be dominated, they just need a person that is going to put up with how they go about pushing buttons. In that article I read, the brat writing it said something like "I really am a sub and I really will obey you, just get me TO obey you." Again, that's not a type that many or even most Dominants are looking for, but some just like that severe challenge.
[2021/05/09 09:16] Becky Summerland: agreed Sam, and we can always choose who we will interact with, so lets do our thing and be happy, help those we can, wish good luck to the others, they have the right to their lives and choices as we do
[2021/05/09 09:17] Vanni Cannoli: One last thing I wanted to point out: brats are almost exclusively female subs.
[2021/05/09 09:17] Vanni Cannoli: I'm wondering if I've ever seen a real bratty male sub.
[2021/05/09 09:18] Becky Summerland: I have seen one Vanni, he is an excellent pony, and actually comes here occasionally... but, I have a hard time finding even that one
[2021/05/09 09:18] Candice Svenska: mmm Impy can be naughty :)
[2021/05/09 09:19] Vanni Cannoli: I don't think Impy is a Brat, he adores Miss Nej and does obey her. He's just a fun, cheeky guy
[2021/05/09 09:19] Vanni Cannoli: I've known Impy a *long* time away from here
[2021/05/09 09:19] ღ Pandora ღ: take care A/all and thank you
[2021/05/09 09:20] Becky Summerland: stay safe Orion/Pandora ♥
[2021/05/09 09:20] Candice Svenska: be well Sir Orion
[2021/05/09 09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Happy Mothers Day to all Mothers, thank Y/you all for coming, and next week we'll get to Switches!
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