"Discipline: Punishment and Funishment!": March 7, 2021

 

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: today we go back to a topic we had more than a year ago, which is the notion of the "D" in B/D, or Discipline

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: I have some exposition on this before we throw the floor open, or throw people on the floor, whichever comes first.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Punishment is a tool in a D/s relationship for the breaking of a rule that has been negotiated between the Dominant and the submissive.  Any rule within the agreed upon limits of the relationship needs to be obeyed, so a punishment is to stop a behavior that is not desired.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Punishment is different from reinforcement in the way that punishment is to *stop* a behavior, while reinforcement is to *continue* a behavior.  To be more confusing, both may be either positive or negative.  That drives Psychology 101 students nuts, but is a topic for another session.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: In behavioral science, we don't talk about "reward and punishment," but rather "reinforcement and punishment"

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: For a punishment to have the desired effect, it must have three qualities:

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: 1.  Swift -- administered as quickly as possible after the infraction to connect the act to the punishment

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: 2.  Certain -- it will happen, not may happen.  If punishment is not certain, the submissive will feed that he/she can get away with things, and the Dom/me isn't very serious.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: 3.  Proportional -- a minor infraction should provoke a minor punishment, and a major infraction a major punishment.  Irrational punishments are simply confusing.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: "Fun"ishment, on the other hand, is to set up a scene.  There is no actual rule breaking being done, it is agreed upon that the "infraction" is an act to drive the scene.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Notice the scare quotes around "infraction"

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: An example of "fun"ishment might be something like this:  Imagine a Dom/me calls the sub in the afternoon and uses an agreed upon phrase.  When the Dom/me comes home, this happens:

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Dom/me:  Why are you wearing jeans in the house, I told you to wear a dress when I get home. (winks)

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Sub:  I didn't feel like it!  (winks back)  Whatchya gonna do?

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Dom/me:  I'm gonna peel those damn jeans off and beat your ass red, is what.  Come here...

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And so it begins...

[08:19] Ballard: Good rule!

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: As we can see, no actual rule was broken -- the Dominant used a phrase the sub knew to mean , 'wear jeans tonight, and you're gonna get it...I'm in the mood.' So whatever happens next is simply the scene.  If the sub had really had been told not to wear jeans, and just did it anyway, it would be proper to actually punish the sub.  But this is just "fun"ishment.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So, to open the floor, do you use punishment and "funishment?"  How so?  Can we mix these up if we are not careful?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: We start with Master RB....please go ahead Sir!

[08:21] RB Quinn: Quality 4:  Both parties should agree the punishment was fair.  (and since you ask, yes... I use funishment and yes, it is important NOT to mix up what is happening in any given case. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: I completely agree about Quality 4, Sir.  In fact, it's inherent in the idea of proportionality.  If the punishment is seen as excessive or lacking, it loses inherent rationality.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli teaches a lot on deterrence theory in class...

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: As a follow up, Master RB, what do You see as a problem if there is a mix-up with punishment and funishment?

[08:24] RB Quinn: The punishment would not be effective, and the funishment would not be fun

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Good points, thank You Master RB!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Becky, we go to you!

[08:25] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie ... ♥

[08:25] Becky Summerland: Positive reinforcement is pretty much how I train ponies, it doesn't work with everyone, as some need to be punished, or forced, but, i prefer not to work with them... that being said, positive reinforcement is so rewarding for both trainer and pony as we are always looking at the bright side... it's never "you've done badly or wrongly" its more "I know how together we can do better and reach our goals". It creates a safety bubble where one can concentrate on competing with oneself instead of always worry about how to do the 'right' thing, or even what the 'right' thing is. I am not sure i really believe in punishments, even if they may be needed, to me, they are most often the result of miscommunication... Let your sub know what is expected, keep an eye on them, use active domination and then you won't need to go to extremes.#

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I had a boss many years ago when I worked at Barnes and Noble who said he didn't believe in "positive reinforcement."  He figured that coddled people.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: You can imagine our store had a lot of turnover, more than normal for retail.

[08:27] Becky Summerland: I bet it created a rather negative athmosphere?

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Very!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: He just believed in "negative punishment," taking away your dignity if you made him mad.

[08:28] aneczusia666: Q What kind of punishments is good if a person has experienced punishment combined with mental and physical abuse during childhood?

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: I think he was transferred to B&N #666 in Hell

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Master Ballard please!

[08:29] Ballard: I will say that misbehavior leads to a discussion.  If something is going on that I don't like, we need to talk about it, as adults, and work out a new path forward.  I really no longer 'punish' as a tool for behavior modification.  If a talk does not work, then our problem is deeper than any physical punishment will correct.  All of that said, sometimes a behavior rule, such as having to be gagged for a day, can be  both amusing, and, because it is a pain in the ass, it can help to remind.  I also encourage my submissives to talk to me if they are unhappy about something I do, or feel they have a need to express.

Funishment, oh yes.  Spare the rod, spoil the fun.  #

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: LOL!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: I love that maxim, Master Ballard!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: See, all You describe, Sir, is what a healthy set of relationships is about

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: I also agree that most punishment can be avoided if clear rules and goals are present.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: If not all.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: The only times my parents really punished me was when I decided to be a little shit and buck their rules.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Simply because I thought "that will get them!"  Ha!

[08:32] Ballard: well, also

[08:32] Ballard: Sub or D, if something is eating you, talk about it.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[08:32] Faith Darrow is offline.

[08:33] Raven: and really LISTEN

[08:33] Becky Summerland: and listen when your partner talks, don't cower away

[08:33] Ballard: Then have sex

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Good points, thank You Master Ballard

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Ane you are up

[08:34] aneczusia666: Ok. What kind of punishments is good if a person has experienced punishment combined with mental and physical abuse during childhood?

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: In my opinion Ane, any punishment has to be carefully administered

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: and really, it's better to find the root cause of the behavior that is driving what is making the person in authority upset

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Why is the person bucking rules?

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: In my case as a girl, it was to be a shit and make my parents upset.

[08:37] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell nods

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: So whatever the issue, the punishment needs to be rational and carefully selected.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Now when dealing with an abused person, the punishment needs to be even more carefully screened

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: And really what needs to be seen is if the trauma of the past is not resolved, and so THAT is what really needs to be dealt with, rather than the outward behavior.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Because re-traumatizing a person is simply going to hurt, and cause more damage, and do nothing worthwhile.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: CC, did I do well? :)

[08:39] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: In the context of a D/s relationship, punishments and pop behaviorism can be fun but in real life, they show poor results. It all boils down to motivation , of which there are 2 kinds. Intrinsic and extrinsic. First life research consistently shows that intrinsic motivators are far superior in both short term and long term outcomes and are based on the satisfaction one gets from being good, competent or what ever.

Extrinsic motivators are rewards and punishments that are external to person. They tend to only have short term results that are contingency based, that is, only done for the reward. Punishment tends to teach the subject that the goal is to avoid punishment. So do what you like and don't get caught.

Extrinsic motivators are not just inferior but they also undermine intrinsic motivators

[08:39] Kurt™: not to mention the damage that can come to the partner

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Well said CC.

[08:41] Brianne: that is genius!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Also it should be remembered that a submissive wants to obey, so if they're not obeying, something is wrong somewhere.  Find the cause.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: That doesn't give a sub license to be a shit though.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: As Master Ballard said, talk.  Bring issues forward so they can be resolved.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: If a sub is afraid to talk to their Dominant, there is a REAL problem there.

[08:42] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I love what Sir said and what you said about diagnosing the underlying problem

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: I hope that answered the question, Ane?

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Drachena, please

[08:44] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: Binding, restraint, spanking, cages, and similar, all of these things are in the "funishment" category for me.  I do these things because we both enjoy them.  I tend to consider any of these things more a reward (or reinforcement) than a punishment.

For punishment, the method can be very varied.  As already mentioned, a discussion is the best first action.  In D/s communiction is absolutely vital.  Often, for good subs, like mine :), the expression of my being displeased is enough.  Since they want to please, knowing they have failed in that is punishment in itself.

For more serious or repeated infractions, my favored method is denial; denial of something the sub wants.  If the sub is social, denial of contact with others, especially myself, is a very effective punishment, but overused this can also be pretty cruel, so moderation is key here.

Ironically, I sometimes see some Dom/mes threatening a bratty sub with a spanking if they don't behave.  Admittedly, I don't fully understand that dynamic of D/s,

[08:44] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ:  but, isn't that reinforcing the bad behavior?  I welcome any enlightening comment on this. #

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Denial is what we call "negative punishment," or removing something liked in order to effect the punishment, Miss.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: and it does work rather well, although as you said, overused it just comes across as cruel

[08:45] Ballard: Spanking is pure funishment.

[08:45] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα nods lots

[08:46] Glitter Bee Trouble is offline.[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: "Positive Punishment" involves adding something NOT liked in order to punish.  But if the sub LIKES the spanking, it's hardly going to invoke punishment.

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Rather, it should be positive reinforcment -- IF you behave then you will get spanked!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: whoo hooo, win/win

[08:47] Brianne: I'll behave then!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Good girl!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: All very well said, thank You Miss Drachena!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sir Kurt, please.

[08:48] Kurt™: I have a chart that I use in my clinical practice that I think helps distinguish between punishment and discipline that I will post here.  In the spirit of full disclosure, I got most of this from a book on parenting that I have adapted to my practice.  Here is the chart….(you may need to widen your chat window)

[08:48] Kurt™: .

                         Punishment                Discipline

 

Purpose          To inflict penalty      To train for correction

                       for an offense           and growth

 

Focus              Past misdeeds        Future correct acts

 

Attitude           Frustration and        Love and concern

                      disappointment

 

Subs feelings   Sadness regret       Secure and love

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Oh I like that a lot, Sir!

[08:48] Kurt™: My style is not to make up a reason or a pretext for funishment.  I just do it, when I feel like it and when we are both in the mood.  It makes it more exciting for both of us.  That doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally let her know well in advance, sometimes days in advance, that we will be doing some sort of funishment.  The anticipation can be almost as exciting as the scene, just as spontaneity can be exciting.

[08:48] Kurt™: Like Ballard, I don’t punish because we are well suited for each other and I have never had an occasion to do so.  If it did come up, we would talk through it.  I do believe it is important if the submissive feels she has done something wrong that there is sufficient discussion to allow her to feel forgiven so that both the dominant and submissive can move on.  There should absolutely be no lingering feelings of disappointment, regret or anger.#

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Sir.  It's always useful to mix things up.  Keep 'em on their toes.  And everything You said is 100% on point.

[08:50] Ballard: That chart is great, Kurt

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I think it is a human trait to keep past faults in mind though, it is easy to go that route, maybe more so for women than men?  "Remember nine years ago, on January 5th when you said?..."

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Very good points, thank You Sir!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: So CC do you want to do make a C or a CC here?

[08:51] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I think punishment in general is wrong but I especially feel that making love contingent on good behavior is all wrong. Mistress Zati and love each other unconditionally, no matter if we make mistakes with each other, the love is still there.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Well there is a philosophical thing here, but I really don't think that love can be contingent on behavior.  I think behavior either increases love or can reduce it via hurt., but to say "I will only love you if you do X" isn't really more than a cop out.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Brianne, next please

[08:55] Brianne: I'm not sure if this is on topic but I think I would benefit from a clear regime of punishment and reinforcement because I do like structure and to obey.  By the same token, if I disappoint my Dominant, and it shows in their tone, that's usually more punishment than I can take.  People who know me know that I can be reduced to tears from just that.  I doubt that's the best reaction.  Maybe that can be trained away, idk.  Can anything be done about that?  I would like funishment, punishment, and discipline to be most effective too, as would my Mistress. #

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Having grown up in a world of Italian Catholic guilt, I can tell you that it takes little more than hearing "You did that wrong" to stick a knife in my chest

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: So I agree 100% Brianne

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I think the best "punishment" is to have a person think about what they did, and then explain why they did it, and to talk about the expected vs actual outcomes.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: "Did you really think that was going to work?  Couldn't you have found a better way to deal with this?"

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Talk about that

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: When my students screw something up, I don't yell at them, that would do nothing, rather I talk to them about why whatever it was happened so we can resolve it.

[08:59] Brianne: but...

[09:00] Brianne: if I know I disappointed, how do you difuse that so I CAN listen?

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Well, that's a consequence, Brianne.  Which in my mind is different from a punishment.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: A makes B happen.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: We can talk about it at a time you're not emotional.

[09:01] Brianne nods, that's sensible.

[09:01] Raven: i would say something that points out the positive along with the negative

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: I think a whole workshop on this might be beneficial for the community

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli adds that to the long list of Seraph duties I have

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead please Master RB

[09:01] RB Quinn: Elli insists on some physical punishment as a way to clear her mind, and get past the guilt she feels.  It is not enjoyable for either of us, but it does seem to 'work'.  #

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Ah but that is what she needs.

[09:02] RB Quinn: yes

[09:02] Brianne: I can see teh wisdom in that Sir.  It gives a tangible finish.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: It's a corrective measure that brings closure

[09:02] RB Quinn: nods.. It took me a while to accept it, but... yes... it is good for us.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Some time ago we talked about rituals in D/s, I would see that as one.

[09:03] Brianne nods

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: All well said, Thank Y/you!

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: we need to move on

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, please!

[09:03] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,

I have been on both of this rod.and either you love it or hate it. I hate punishment, but it does make you know what you have to do because it is what the feelings you have in yourself. It hurts me to know that I disappointed my Master and then I feel the guilt. Writing it and thinking about what you did does work.

When you can have makeup sex . Then you know you being carded for.

The thing is that you have to have the follow through on both side.

I have done that and now I have the parents after me and saying how mean I am when I give the kids the options to get there work done and not take it home for homework and don't get it done.

 

.

 

P.S. I need this for school also about my kids misbehaving. Thank you.

 

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: I think that making a person face their misdeed, and then tell the other how they expect to correct it is a really good tool!

[09:05] Aspen Diamond: I am going to have a meeting tomorrow and this is going to help me talk to my principal.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Putting the expectation on correction back on them makes them work.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: I"m glad! Be sure to tell them that your BDSM community is really helping you to deal with the kids! ;)

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: WE go to Miss Raks, please

[09:07] Raks: I think when you have a deep and longer term relationship with someone you know a nd fee instantly when they are feeling playful and 'funishement' can come naturally.  If you don't know someone well you need to set it up before hand which feels lumpy and prearranged.  I like spontaneous things with people I know well - it works better for me:)  With the the right person I love to please and have never been punished.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: I think of "funishment" as an RP tool really, which isn't what everyone does in their D/s relationship

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: it's fun to use in an RP scene

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: like the kinky lawyer that "funishes" their client who can't pay, etc.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I've ever done such things of course

[09:09] Now playing: Beth Orton - Anywhere

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Only perverts do stuff like that.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli hides my lawyer suit

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli also hides the enema nurse outfit...

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ahem

[09:10] Kurt™: i use the same suit when I am a lawyer, a used car salesman, an undertaker an........

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[09:10] Candice Svenska: deputy i more official ...just sayin'

[09:10] Raks: Hehe

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Miss Raks! :)

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Miss Raven please

[09:11] Raven: those who know me know that i am a gentle and loving domme, in such i dont like to punish physically or by denial really.... and any one with me knows that the worst thing i can do is say "you disappointed me".... #

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: That...THAT is just like the Cat Stevens song, Miss.  "The First Cut is the Deepest"

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I think most S-Types would agree that hearing that would turn us into puddles.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thanks Miss Raven

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: ok CC I think you have the final comment for the day

[09:16] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Sorry if I back up just a little bit but about the idea that hurtful behaviors can lessen love, I'm not so sure about that, it can create hurt and lack of trust but I don't think the quantity of love can be diminished on a contingency bases. It's just what I feel. People who I love who have wounded me don't make me love them less in fact the hurt is there because of that love.

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: As I said, CC, it's a philosophical thing

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: We could do the entire Plato's Symposium on love and still not figure it out :P

[09:18] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: we would yes which is why I bring to my own experience, as to what I feel

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Any final comments on our topic?

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Then thank Y/you all for coming and making our Sunday morning discussion group fantastic!  Remember there is no Weekend Wrapup tonight at 9PM (unless that changes).