"DaddyDoms and Babygirls" -- July 27, 2025

 [15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok we are starting late so let's get to it

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We continue our discussion of the BDSM paradigm with two more topics

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): today is DaddyDom and Babygirl

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in two weeks...the Brat!

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and not the kind you eat

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well...usually

 

[15:48] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i didnt do it..

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *cough*

 

[15:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I mean depends on where you put the spicy mustard

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *grins*

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Then we'll go to more general topics over fall and winter

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we go into an aspect of the D/s dynamic known generally as "DaddyDom/Babygirl"

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which does create some misunderstandings...

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have some of my usual exposition and then we go to the floor

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so as comments or questions come up, drop a C or Q in chat

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then we will get to the queue

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Firstly, this should be seen as a lifestyle choice. So of course we don't ever want to kink-shame anyone's consensual decisions of how they do their D/s thang.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even if it's not our particular cup of proverbial tea.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Secondly, the conception of the DaddyDom does not, in the vast majority of cases, really mean that a Dom is a sub's "Father" and what they are doing is an incest RP.

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Although again, what adults do who are consenting and it's not illegal, go for it.

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is also the idea that the "babygirl" is some kind of simpering little thing who acts like a child.

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While *some* Babygirls may get really into the role, most that I have spoken to insist they are not a kid, this isn't some strange "pedophile play" thing, and while they act cute and girly, they should not be seen as actual young teens with "Daddy"

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While the DaddyDom/Babygirl dynamic is the most common in this kind of connection, there are Dommes that are referred to as "Mommy" by their subs, and even male subs will at times really get into the dynamic. Again, less common than Babygirls, but they are out there.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For those who remember Tann, her female sub referred to her as "Mommy," but Aoisle was certainly not a simpering thing...she was a fun ball of snark actually.

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the questions for today are 1) Do Y/you do DaddyDom/Babygirl dynamic, or MommyDom, or something in this lifestyle and 2) How do Y/you describe Y/your choices and acts in this lifestyle. And 3) What respectful questions or comments do people not in this dynamic have about it?

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): RB you are up when ready and we'll let the rest of you chew on this a while

 

[15:57] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Very early in my life as a dominant (here in SL), a new *cough* female friend called me 'Daddy' and I was shocked and more than a little angered.  I demanded that she and I go to see my then-mentor in BDSM, who kindly did not laugh me out of his house, but explained gently.  I have since had some babygirl subs and enjoyed the experience -- it emphasizes, for me, the protection and guidance aspect of being part of a D/s couple. #

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nice!

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a follow up, do you think that the DD/BG aspect increases that protection aspect?

 

[15:58] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I know I definitely feel that.  I suspect my babygirls did, also.

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): cool!

 

[16:00] RB (RBQuinn Resident): But, then, being protective of my girls is my natural bent.

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Again we are supportive of all in the lifestyle as long as we all keep RACK, SSC and PRICK (not that kind!) in mind

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love that RB]

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much for sharing!

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus we come to you please

 

[16:01] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Thank you. So, I know that this is strictly my own hang up on the terminology, so I ask this with respect. But I'm curious if any of the Daddy Doms here have RL children, and, if so, how do you separate those mentally when using the term "Daddy"?

 

[16:04] RB (RBQuinn Resident): That is THE crux of the matter for folks who look unkindlyl at DD/BG lifestyle.  To me, there is clear separation between the two uses of the word Daddy that Magnus outlined.  So, I ignore negative reactions others might have.

 

[16:04] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): I know I'm not a Dominant - and perhaps I'm a rare case - but most Daddy Dominants that I've found myself involved with that have children have not had their children call them "Daddy".  They've always been called Dad or something else, so it's never been an issue for them.

 

[16:05] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Ah, thank you, Spice. And RB, I'm looking more for the internal dynamics rather than external.

 

[16:06] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): But there are plenty of others to get to. So, I can be done for now.

 

[16:06] RB (RBQuinn Resident): There are DD's who give their BG's bedtime baths... and I agree that feels on the icky end of things to me.

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That reminds me

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): before we move on

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there is a submissive aspect that should be mentioned as well that's not DD/BG

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There are "Littles"....or sub types that really do act like children

 

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have a few at my First Life club

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): mostly they stay in the 'break room' and color or play with Play-Dough

 

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But there are a number of them

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): They even have a monthly meeting called SOAP -- Society of Age Players (NOT the sexual kind that got banned here)

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One night we got "invaded" by Littles...15 or so came into an open, community party and were running around yelling, skating and even playing with one of those red wagons we had as kids

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they got relegated to one big room to do their thing as they were interrupting scenes....not bueno

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I just wanted to point out that "Littles" are a different thing than Babygirls

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is a dynamic that is particular to the participants .. not a lifestyle choice like Littles...but all are good!

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok sorry for the aside

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Magnus and all who answered

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): MansooR has a question!

 

[16:14] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i want to know what are the motivations to be BG....... i think for me knowing that wd be very helpful

 

[16:15] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   smiles and looks towards Sir Mansoor "for me it's a higher form of protection"

 

[16:15] αηαşţαşία (Anastasia Heartsong): I don't consider myself a bg but I suppose it's a desire to be protected, pampered, spoiled, like a "Daddy" would to his little girl. Just a thought but I may be way off base.

 

[16:15] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident):   smiles and nods

 

[16:15] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I don't play as a child...or cutsie

 

[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): From what I had an ex describe it as "Being able to relax, enjoy the moment, and have ful and playful without having to 'adult' at the moment."

 

[16:16] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so if during sex someone calls me

 

[16:16] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): Daddy.... what wd that mean?

 

[16:17] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): It's the side of me that gets to relax.  I deeply enjoy high protocol, but it's exhausting to maintain long-term.  So the more informal interaction, the relaxation... it just lets me be soft.

 

[16:17] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Would depend on the context Mansoor :)

 

[16:17] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Are they calling you Daddy during intimacy? then it is saying they find your sexy and safe and are comfortable with you.     If they call you it while shopping, they are saying "ooh buy me this and I'll wear it for you "  ;)

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL

 

[16:18] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): context... is just sex.....and i have had that happen alot... and i dont know how to respond....:)

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Daddy...buy me this Porsche and I'll drive it for you!"

 

[16:18] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): If you enjoy it, go with it :)  If you don't, ask for a different nick name :)

 

[16:18] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I think Johan nailed it

 

[16:18] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): hehe damn you Sir Johan did you find our secret rule book? thats cheating :p

 

[16:18] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <-- thats why he's in the adept course ;)

 

[16:19] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i enjoy it.... but am definitely looking for insight to make it more responsive from my side

 

[16:19] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): <Leather Daddy vibes

 

[16:19] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   nods in appreciation for Sir Johan answering faster and clearer than she could

 

[16:19] αηαşţαşία (Anastasia Heartsong):   nods agreeing with Sir Johan

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I really don't think that they are into incest..."Daddy" in this context is the big, strong, caring and nurturing male person

 

[16:20] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): ty

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for the question and thanks for the answers!

 

[16:20] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I also think it may harken to the time in my life that I was protected and nurtured to be me

 

[16:21] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): or nurtured to be what my Parents wanted me to be...caveat

 

[16:21] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): hmmm.. now that makes sense Rachel

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks again!

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seli you have a comment please!

 

[16:21] Seli (Seliara Elton): Just a little twist. I don't consider myself a "Mommy," nor ask anyone to use the term unless they're really into it. But I do think there's some really positive things to be found in studying and reading about the dynamic in how to be more nurturing and helpful as a dominant. It's not necessarily the core of the experience, but I think it's the most transferable to broader BDSM. There's a headspace, I think, that goes with the Mommy or Daddy dynamic which encourages you to introduce your sub(s) to new experiences, keep them safe while they're learning, and, of course, push them just a little until they just on the edge of comfort.

 

[16:22] Seli (Seliara Elton): (copy paste for the win ;) )

 

[16:22] Seli (Seliara Elton): #

 

[16:22] RB (RBQuinn Resident):  ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Isn't CQ a ham radio expression.

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:23] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ha!!

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love what you said Seli!

 

[16:24] Seli (Seliara Elton): Thanks, the crickets were freakin' me out a little *giggles*

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it encapsulates what the "DD/BG" connection is

 

[16:24] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): Being 'told off', certainly has this energy... and has 'an effect' (TM)

 

[16:24] Seli (Seliara Elton):   pat pats RB's shoulder. "Thanks for having my back"

 

[16:25] RB (RBQuinn Resident):   smiles warmly to Seli

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks for that!

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Johan please!

 

[16:25] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I had an issue when I first came across the DD/BBG dynamic; as it, much like Bratting, wasn't very common to what I was used to in the early 90's, aside from the visuals of humiliation play of Dominatrixes making male subs run around in diapers. ( A valid kink for those who participate, just not what I was used to)

 

[16:25] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident):  (also Copy-paste for the win)

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good points

 

[16:27] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   nods. Thank you, Johan.

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lots of women in their 20s and beyond still refer to their fathers as "Daddy" from time to time and I think it shows a different aspect of the Father/Daughter relationship

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The everyday (Dad) vs that caring, nurturing masculine energy archetype that she can turn to for emotional support (Daddy)

 

[16:29] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): "Emotional support Daddy" im making that into a tshirt..

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:29] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Well-said, Vanni!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All very good points Johan, thank you!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Draya we come to you please

 

[16:30] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): sorry in advanced :p

 

[16:30] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i do live inside that kind of Dynamic, or i did, not currently right now, but i am a Babygirl at heart and my ideal Dominant is that of the Daddy type, both SL and RL, and although you dont see much of the issues you do in SL in RL, coming to SL and continuing to explore this dynamic hit me hard with the lack of understanding, as you said many think its some incest thing, and although sometimes i can be for some that totally seperate from the main dynamic, its more about the Dom taking a more nurturing role, much like a parental figure, helping the sub to grow in a way they think betters them both, its a softer form of D/s (not to say its easy) punishments are not like beatings or cage time (althoug can be depending on dynamic) but things like time outs, sitting on the naughty chair, spankings, taking away your fave stuffy, (evil) and although some can see it as "childish" its really not, its going back mentally to a time you where dependant on another its a mind state, you shed your "adult" mind and submit

 

[16:30] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):  fully to your Daddy, and i personally do like the "little" things, although il say being a Babygirl and being a Little are differant but can have overlap, i do enjoy my paci at bedtime, stuffies and fun trips to the park or bath times, bed time stories, they are very speicla things you can share with your dominant that are not just Sexual things like playtimes, i Love that feeling of being with a good Daddy, i also dont personaly see being little or Babygirl as age play sure some can take it that far, but i cherry pick what i like from many aspects of many dynamics, mood dependant i can be very slave like to the right person, other times a total brat, and others i want to just cuddle by the fire and do colouring in or crafting.. anyway sorry im rambling il stop now, this is just a subject very close to my little heart and i could talk on it for hours hehe, #

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks for sharing all that!

 

[16:32] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Good point on the overlapping; yet also each experience is unique. There is no singular 'right way' to D/s

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): amen to that

 

[16:32] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): exactly

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is ok"

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or some variation of that

 

[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And even in the 'your Kink IS my Kink, but I do it X you do it Y and thats ok too! "

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right on Johan!

 

[16:33] RB (RBQuinn Resident): smiles... "Thank you for that, Draya"

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have an SL friend who is into full time mummification here...she spends all day wrapped up to her head like a mummy and only goes out (like that) when her Master takes her out....TOTALLY not my thing, but she's very happy with it, so more power to her.

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you Draya for that..and I did make my save vs "Wall of Text" cast at 5th level :P

 

[16:37] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): hehehe i sowee

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (sorry had to get the D&D joke in...)

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): <- geek

 

[16:37] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   smiles gently to the sub who just arrived

 

[16:37] Seli (Seliara Elton): Neeerrrrrds (are hot, well done, Vanni)

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Reminds me of a story, a guy goes to sit at a park bench and there's a person there wearing a military ghillie suit (all leaves, makes you blend in with a forest, type thing)  So the guy says "Hey"  and the ghillie suit responds "Hey"     The other guy says "You ok man?" and the suit fuffles a bit and the guy says "Yeah, I'm good, just working through some shit."       Sometimes we just need to put on a leaf suit and 'worth through some shit'

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Magnus with a question/comment or was trying to hail another amateur radio operator (CQ) ;)

 

[16:38] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   chuckles. Oh, man, that makes me want to research ham radio, now. Thanks!

 

[16:38] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I knew a Little once, way back when. Due to a heart condition, she had died at the age of four, but brought back by the doctors. So, when she go into Little mode, it was almost like she was reverting back to that age. It was a way of owning that trauma for her. However, at one point she took a job as a phone sex operator (Yes, I'm old). When a client wanted ageplay, she slipped into her Little persona and became terribly traumatized all over again. It was terrible to see. So, those who do experiment with that kind of play, please be very careful. #

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wow Magnus!

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's quite a situation for her

 

[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thats definitely gotta be rough. Sorry she went through that

 

[16:40] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): ouch... poor girl

 

[16:40] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Yeah, we got her out of that job immediately.

 

[16:40] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I had a friend who did phone SW for a while, she called it "Moaning for Morons"

 

[16:40] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   chuckles. That's really good.

 

[16:40] Pwnography (Pwnography Resident):   chokes a bit trying not to laugh

 

[16:40] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): thats accurate..

 

[16:41] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   snortlaughs.

 

[16:41] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): LOLL

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): now you get an AI to do it for you lol

 

[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *ponders* I wonder if someone did that too much; then all of a sudden they start getting aroused everytime they hear an alert from Alexa

 

[16:41] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): atleast you dont have to ask the AI many times to do something, unlike some guys... erm i mean.. nvm

 

[16:42] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Most LLMs have guardrails that won't let them engage in that.

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!

 

[16:42] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): you just have to ask the right questions magnus, dont ask me how i know :p

 

[16:42] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): Huggingface has unrestritcited LLms

 

[16:42] αηαşţαşία (Anastasia Heartsong):   shakes her head and chuckles softly

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): one step closer to the Matrix

 

[16:43] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): My mind is gone in a weird place lol..   Now I'm pondering "I wonder if they have arousal issues with their RL partner unless the partner "talks like Alexa" after that....

 

[16:43] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   nods. I wasn't going to name names, but yes, MansooR.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok that was a comment...did you have a question as well, Magnus?

 

[16:44] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I do, thank you. So, for those of us - as rare as we are - who find themselves unable to use the term "Daddy" because of RL family who do use the term (my daughter still calls me daddy and she's 30), is there an alternative appellation when the Dominant is nurturing and protective? Johan mentioned Service Top. Are there others?

 

[16:44] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Papi

 

[16:44] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Boss

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): my response is "discuss it together and find one"

 

[16:44] Pwnography (Pwnography Resident): Papi is what my ex called me

 

[16:45] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Big Guy

 

[16:45] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): Zaddy

 

[16:45] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Ol Man

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Zeus

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:45] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ha!

 

[16:45] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Lots to choose from. And, of course you're right Vanessa.

 

[16:46] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Sir Marcus...it's all up to you how you want to be called that brings out those qualities ofr procting and nurturing

 

[16:46] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): My RL ex used to call me Daddy, one Halloween we dressed as a Priest and nun and that night she called me Father

 

[16:47] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I have pictures....

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): remember during confessions to write the sins down so we can all apply them in our lives

 

[16:47] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I had a friend who did that and named the priest "Father May I " and "Sister Mary Margaret of the Order of Perpetual Suffering"

 

[16:47] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): For those wondering, no, most priests are not okay with you starting your confession with: "I've been bad, Daddy."

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lol

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I was JUST going to say that Magnus ^5

 

[16:48] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   laughs

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "Its forgive me father for I Have sinned, not "I've been bad Daddy" lol

 

[16:48] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i know this for a fact magnus i have said that, :p he was not impressed

 

[16:48] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): "Sorry, Daddy, I've been a bad girl."  "For the last time, it's 'Forgive me Father, for I have sinned.'"

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Father why is there something called a "glory hole" in the confessional?"  "It's the door to heaven, my child."

 

[16:48] Seli (Seliara Elton):   laughs

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): doh!

 

[16:48] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): See, if I were a priest, I'd be all like, "Yeah? Tell me the details."

 

[16:48] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): loll@Vanessa

 

[16:49] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thats reminds me of joke...

 

[16:49] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): For the last time it's not "Sorry Daddy, I've been a bad bad girl." it's "Bless me Father, for I have sinned."

 

[16:49] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): smirks

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love how this devolved so quickly LOL

 

[16:50] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): imy types 1000wpm

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Magnus!

 

[16:50] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):   smiles innocently.

 

[16:50] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): That's a sure sign that we're having fun in your talks, Vanessa.

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Any other ON TOPIC questions or comments on DD/BG? ;)

 

[16:50] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): seconds that

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 25 years of teaching means me do good talk

 

[16:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Not a comment.. But..

 

[16:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "three teens go to wait outside a Confessional.  One sits inside telling the priest, Forgive me father, I was with a girl in a way I shouldn't have been..   The Priest asks, "Was it Mary Kennedy?"  "Sorry Father, I don't want to cause her harm... "  "Was it July Brown?"   "Father, please.. I cannot divulge her name..."   "Was it Missy Rogers?"    "Father, I cannot tell you..."     Fine.. go perform a act of penance and three hail marys...      "       He comes out of the confessional and his friends ask "Ok whatcha get?   "  three hail mary's and three great leads "

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I prefer "Five 'OH Fathers!" and five Bloody Marys myself

 

[16:52] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   starts looking for priest outfits on SL Marketplace

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:53] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): I have a couple of Nun outfits

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we'll have nun of that dear

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:53] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I have a priest outfit and a Satanic Pope outfit

 

[16:53] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): my dad was a nun

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:53] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Ooo, I need both of those.

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do have a confessional believe it or not

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no glory hole in it

 

[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): So do I

 

[16:54] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): It surprises me exactly zero that both of You have one.

 

[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): LOL

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): confess, Imy!

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *gets the whip*

 

[16:54] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): Make me -grins-

 

[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Tell me allllll your sins

 

[16:55] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart):   slips to the side out the way of the whip

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   opens the Book of Implements

 

[16:55] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): ^5s Vanni

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok....with all this...THANK YOU all for both a strong discussion on DD/BG and the stand up comedy!

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Y'all make this worth the time

 

[16:56] RB (RBQuinn Resident): laughing

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In two weeks we go to the Brat!]

 

[16:56] Draya Darkwing (Drayana Firehart): i didnt do it

 

[16:56] RB (RBQuinn Resident): Thanks, everyone :)

"Submissive vs Slave" -- July 13, 2025

 [15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Leans over and runs his fingers through his Angel's hair before kissing hte top of her head*

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I as usual have some exposition

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I yap, feel free to put in a C or a Q into the queue

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Then we will get to your insights!

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we continue our probe..heh heh...she said probe...of the BDSM acronym and D/s in particular.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today is a discussion on the difference between a sub and a slave.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is one of the more divisive topics one will find in reference to BDSM and D/s.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If you get on a BDSM forum, website or just talk to the kinky folks live, you'll get twenty different opinions from twenty different people on what it means to be a "sub" or a "slave" and whatever is between them.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So there is obviously no "right answer" here.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What it means to be a sub, or a slave, or whatever we are, is a deeply personal thing for each of us.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But it's always good to get opinions and ideas about things. It's how we learn.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As far as "sub vs slave", I'm sure we all agree there is some differentiation between the two. What is it?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it some kind of quantifiable difference? "I'm a 3 on the slavery index while you're a 9?"

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   pushes the Sociologist in me back in the box..."Bad index!"]

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it purely qualitative...if a person *feels* they are a slave or a sub, they are?

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it something that requires people outside to look at a person and say "you are a sub/slave/whatever?"

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if a person is a sub or a slave, how do they approach BDSM differently, how do people around them act differently?

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And...one final thought...what is it that attracts Dominants to a certain kind of person...sub to slave? What are the expectations?

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will not give my opinion on this now, I want to hear the ideas of the August Assembly.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, when y'all are ready, drop a C or a Q in  the queue!

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan we will start with you when ready!

 

[15:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): This is my personal opinion on the matter, and full disclosure I came into BDSM and D/s from a Gorean RP background first. So I have a hard time with the concept of "Slave".  As we look at it both legally and even in the scope of BDSM, a 'slave' would still have legal rights (you can't legally own a slave, nor remove their rights), and from a BDSM perspective we respect the aspect of Consent, and Limits and Safewords. In a 'true' sense of the word 'slave' there would be no right to 'not consent' to an action or limits,  or use of a safeword.

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): No one can be a slave in any legal sense.  And human rights still apply to every human, regardless of what they choose to call themselves.

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I also agree that slavery does not impart "more kinkiness" to a person

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Subs can be very kinky!  So can slaves!

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All well said Johan, thank you for that spot on comment to lead us off.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mansoor you are up when ready please

 

[15:56] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so... after reading Johan's comment.... i think that being a slave is a state of mind

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree completely!  As a follow up what do you see as the different state of minds are between the sub and the slave?

 

[15:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): That was something that popped into my head after I hit enter and was thinking as well.  Perhaps the use of 'slave' as a identifier is more of a 'degredation' play for the parties involved? That the idea of less will and control or being 'forced' into the servitude  is at play?

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (remember there is no "right answer" here...we are all here to ponder and give opinions)

 

[15:58] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): for the period of the scene... she will doas told.....ofc given the limnits... whereas the sub....she will do the scene only after negociation

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One thing I do think is that the Gorean idea of a slave is not necessarily what the folks around here would call a 'slave.'  Gor is a specific kind of RP.

 

[15:59] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Very true

 

[15:59] Angela (MadamA Himmel): I agree with Vanessa

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have a RL friend who identifies as a "slave" to her Master and she is now a middle management person with Starbucks.

 

[16:00] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): She's definitely into degredation and humiliation working for Starbucks *rimshot*

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Are there Starbucks on Gor?

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:00] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): if she has corner office on the 10th floor.. i ll be a window cleaner

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway thanks for the comments

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is already getting the thinking flowing!

 

[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And technically 'no' as Blackwine in Gor is very regulated and controlled by Thentis..  Though with all the acquisition voyage trips you'd think they'd smuggle of 100lb bags of coffee beans back.

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus we come to you please

 

[16:01] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): The timing on this discussion is perfect. I've been talking to a lot of subs and slaves lately about this exact topic. I've picked up a few commonalities in how they view each other, but I've also come a conclusion of my own.

Those who identify as subs sometimes point to a slave as someone who has surrendered all agency. Slaves, on the other, sometimes point to subs as being non-committal. Neither is true, of course. Slaves have limits, safewords, and all the other trappings that subs reserve for themselves. From a dominant perspective, I haven't found much difference in the labels, apart from self identification. Some subs want to be treated like they have no rights, some slaves are very adamant on their limits. Neither is wrong.

In my view, it all comes down to, like most things in a BDSM relationship, what works for the people involved. If the word 'slave' does something for your mindset, use it. If that label is uncomfortable for you, don't use it. And never use that term in front of a law enforcement officer.

 

[16:02] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *claps*

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *claps*

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!!

 

[16:02] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): *nods*

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and spot on there...NEVER use BDSM honorifics around police or health professionals or any person who is a mandated reporter]

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If they hear that....trouble is coming.

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and as for the rest, also spot on Magnus

 

[16:05] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): As your slave, I feel like I'm fine with how things are between us, even though in my own vision of things I'd call myself your sub. I like my limits, I have my kinks and i'm lucky those align with stuff we agree upon when deciding about a scene. And to be completely honest, I call myself a slave in your presence only. :o

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see the differentiation as largely the way people view themselves.

 

[16:05] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I have known LEOs that were in the Lifestyle and knew the difference and while at dungeons not in a LEO capacity they don't do anything

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very well said thank you!!

 

[16:05] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Sorry

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh yes I agree Jason...we have LAPD come around our dungeon

 

[16:06] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): But they know, ya know?

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but you don't want to say that in front of cops you *don't* know

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or at the doctor's office, etc

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think after we finish the BDSM acronym we'll move to a discussion one Sunday on "Being Kinky in a Vanilla World"

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): where this will come into play

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): for now...thanks for your insight Magnus!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rachel you are up please

 

[16:08] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Here is a perspective from a sub/slave...yes both are true for me....looks towards Sir Magnus with a gentle smile and then around at the others....

 

[16:08] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): short and sweet...I hope

 

[16:08] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Isn't it more important is how the relationship is defined within a Master and Sub/slaves encounters or scenes?  For me...inside a more intimate scene...it's like I am a slave without any rights to what or who I am and follow where I am taken...and that's usually into a sub zone I call a cocoon...that is a place for me of peace and no pain in RL.  This is something both my Master and I agree to and try to get me there.

 

[16:09] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): But outside of that I am a sub with rights to respectfully decline certain offers or things from other dominants that don't have the rights to anything more than what my Master allows.

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that's a great way to look at it Rachel!

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with the Buddha -- the "us" of here and now is predicated on the time, place and context of here and now.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do Buddhist mantras all the time to clear my mind...and calm down when driving and the Sicilian in me starts coming out..... ;)

 

[16:11] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   applauds the Buddha reference.

 

[16:12] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its a perfect reference and a good meditation/relaxation technique :)

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes!

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rachel what you said was great

 

[16:13] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   nods her head and softly says "Thank you Miss Vanni"

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And definitely shows that being a sub or a slave is a manifestation of the moment.]

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason-Lenore, you are up please!

 

[16:13] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Thank you Vanni. To me I think the difference comes down to mindset of the individual. In my experience, both online and offline for decades, a slave seems to be much more devoted to service, like vast amounts. A submissive may enjoy service but they don't seem to be dedicated to serving in the same way, like it's a driving need akin to the way a vampire has that hunger and drive for blood for the majority of self identified slaves.

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!

 

[16:14] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Ooh, I didn't think about that! Well said!

 

[16:14] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): The scope of service vs needs

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think a way to parse that is that for the sub, service is part of the scene...whereas for the slave, service is integral to their devotion to their Dom

 

[16:15] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I would venture to say that for slaves service is a need

 

[16:15] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Although, isn't desiring to serve a kind of need by itself?

 

[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I respectfully disagree.  To say that a 'slave' is more devoted to service than a Sub does a disservice to those who DO have that same dedicating and desire to serve in the same way, that do not identify as 'slave'.

 

[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): That goes back into a "Who's more kinky" mindset.

 

[16:15] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *smiles to her Master agreeing*

 

[16:16] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   smiles "time and place is a factor for sub vs slave"

 

[16:16] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I would venture to say that those submissives may be more slave-like than they may think.

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's also a good point

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and certainly service is just one component to the whole thing

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's a package not a single point after all

 

[16:17] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Ah, I love that we got to hear from you, Jason. I think we're hitting on some of the difference between old-guard and new-guard.

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I reject that humans are binary in *anything*

 

[16:17] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): As for who is kinkier, that would be me.

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  I didn't mean it and don't think Jason-Lenore meant it as an 'either/or' Johan

 

[16:18] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Agreed Vanni about there are no absolutes

 

[16:19] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Just speaking from my experience

 

[16:19] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No, but it directly brings up the 'who is more submissive' who is 'more kinkier' argument/debate, which comes up and truly doesn't belong in our community(the overall BDSM community, not Xaara specific)

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Autumn needs to get to RL so we are going to up her to next so she can get going.

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!

 

[16:19]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Thank you

 

[16:19]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): I also come into BDSM and D/s from a Gorean background.  While I know legally there can not be slaves, for me personally, I feel I am submissive in general. But, that runs deeper with my Master, so in my head, I feel more of his slave, while I do know I have rights, and a say, I also know my devotion to him is far deeper than what I normally feel as a submissive.  I guess if I had to try to define the difference other than my mindset, or my heart, I would say it's more of a TPE relationship as a slave for me, than a sub.  Done.

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now see...that is what I think is the real differentiation!

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Power exchange is a spectrum

 

[16:20]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Nods

 

[16:20] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): nods

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): From "None" to "Total"

 

[16:20] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):   nods

 

[16:20] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): agree with Autumn

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): subs tend to be lower on the spectrum, slaves higher...but again...time and place and context matter

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so a sub can have that TPE with their Dominant while being rather low with others

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as my RL friend shows easily

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Autumn..thanks...now off to RL with you!

 

[16:22]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Thank you Miss Vanni!

 

[16:22]  Aυţυмη нαuι (AutumnRaineSkye Resident): Waves and poofs

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *barks the order with a giggle*

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Angela we come to you please!

 

[16:22] Angela (MadamA Himmel): thank you Vanessa, I come at this topic from a female that practices FLR (Female Led Relationship) in Europe, and never have or will be on the submissive/slave side of the equation. The approach to all of "this" in Europe is also different as is the vernacular. We don't even use the word "submissive" in Germany. While I use the word "submissive" for ease of communication in the "Lifestyle" with English speakers, there is no submissive / slave in my world, only the dynamic of "I am the Alpha, he or she is the Beta", in other words, only people(s) that serve in whichever way I desire. It may include D/s or BDSM, or Kink, it may not. From a Femdom perspective, I don't care how they identify. I watch, observe, listen and form my own point of view and then it is measured against my own Framework. Like Johan said, slavery is not reality, to me it is RP, and since I tend to move in the world of 1st Life & SL as a female top, reality is very important to me. When I deal with a "self-identified slave" (dungeon /

 

[16:22] Angela (MadamA Himmel):  situational interactions exempt) I actually test this. It generally does not hold up, so eventually everyone agrees that it is about service, or serving, or kink or BDSM, rather than the label. Makes it difficult of course, in a world that thrives on labels, but I think clarity in that regard (for self or to others) is a must .... rather than just throwing out the words of "submissive" and "slave" to get your cock stepped on or boobs whipped :) ... and? living the "life" in the vanilla world is awesome #

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ooo I like all that!]

 

[16:24] Angela (MadamA Himmel): nods

 

[16:24] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Excellent observations, Angela.

 

[16:24] Angela (MadamA Himmel): thank you

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Are "Top" and "Bottom" terms used in Europe?

 

[16:25] Angela (MadamA Himmel): yes

 

[16:25] Angela (MadamA Himmel): "sklave" (slave) in a Dungeon setting

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Cool!

 

[16:26] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   learned a German word today.

 

[16:26] Angela (MadamA Himmel): smiles

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Always love the fact we get a cross-cultural group of people here so we can learn from each other

 

[16:26] Angela (MadamA Himmel): nods

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much Angela!

 

[16:26] Angela (MadamA Himmel): my pleasure

 

[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Me as well, its always interesting to see the difference between European BDSM/Ds and what we do in the States

 

[16:27] Angela (MadamA Himmel): oh yes, and I do try to tone it down :)

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Breanne you are up please!

 

[16:28] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): I think what I am thinking is kinda in line with what Rachel said.

 

[16:28] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): As someone that is pretty new to this, I may have a viewpoint as an outsider.  In my opinion Sub and Slave are 2 completely seperate things.  For me a Sub is more of state of mind or personality trait.  Where everyone whether or not may be have sub tendancies or even dom ones and many may have both.  Where I feel a slave is where someone willingly gives up some type of mental or physical control to their partner.  So in summary, Sub is more of a state of mind and slave is a choice.  As  a saying, not all Subs are slaves, but all slaves are subs.  But even that has exception to the rules as I am sure there are a few with a more Dom Personality but chooses to be a slave.  Hence the Term Topping from the Bottom.

 

[16:28] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): I feel like Top and dom aren't the same thing, likewise for bottom and sub or its declinations

 

[16:28] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): I am pretty vanilla, and don't consider myself a slave.  As I am not looking to give up control but over the years, between a medium I used about 10-12 years ago, to my now recent return to some place like SL that I have discovered that I do have some pretty submissive tendencies, but is not something that is prevalent all the time.

 

[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Would you say then that you consider "Slavery" a 'type' of Submissive?

 

[16:29] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): how much of ourselves we give up is a big part of the separation

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right

 

[16:30] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): As I said, they are linked, but I think they different, but a true slave would be submissive

 

[16:30] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):   nods

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see it as going back to the spectrum of increasing power exchange "Bottom-----Sub------Slave"

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I see it as going back to the spectrum of increasing power exchange "Bottom-----Sub------Slave"

 

[16:31] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): If that question was for me, Johan, then yes, I consider "sub" to be an umbrella term that encompasses slaves and many mores, like, pet, pup, degradee, etc...

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but where that is for each person is their own social-psychological viewpoint

 

[16:31] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): People don't have a choice is they are submissive or Dom, it is part of them, but being a slave is concsious choice

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and what if one is a switch? *grins and sips coffee*

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   picks up the monkey wrench I just tossed out

 

[16:32] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): hush Miss Vanni...that is my question

 

[16:32] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): Well as I said, Sub and Dom not absolutes, I believe everyone in right context can be both

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!

 

[16:32] Seli (Seliara Elton):   awards Vanni one psychic point

 

[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Only Siths deal in Absolutes

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Master Kenobi! ;)

 

[16:33] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): For example, in personal life, I have ore sub tendancies but in my professional life, more Dom

 

[16:33] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   fires up his red lightsaber and sips his vodka.

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks for that Beanne!  Welcome to Xaara by the way!

 

 

[16:35] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   looks towards Miss Vanni with laughter dancing in her eyes and then says:

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We always appreciate good folks here :)

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rachel you are up please

 

[16:35] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I don't mean to sound stupid...but stupid is as stupid does and all that jazz as I ask my question....Is there such a thing as a sub/slave switch in BDSM?  What do the Dom  think or the sub/slave think?

 

[16:35] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): By the way...I am a professional in my field of RL work and am a Regional Manager that do make decisions that affect others and their lives.

 

[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So I think the aspect that others have brought up are closer to the 'sub slave' switch Rachel.

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it's what Autumn said, Rachel

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and you as well

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): i didnt realize it Rachel said it

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Where a person may have a lesser degree of 'submission in regards to a certain person' whereas have 'more submission' to their Owner/Master

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person  can be a self-defined slave to their Dominant and a self-defined sub to other Dom s.

 

[16:37] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): nods...but is it accepted as such

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   hi-5s Johan

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It’s as accepted as anything else is in our (overall) community :)

 

[16:37] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): okay...I am new to this too

 

[16:37] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): do you mean switching between sub and slave, or a sub/slave who switches?

 

[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): proves one point absolutely: no question is stupid

 

[16:38] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I mean within the individual person being a switch between sub/slave

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well, what others accept or don't is largely immaterial...it's what the D-type and the S-type feel is right in context with any others allowed access to said S-type

 

[16:38] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^ The only stupid questions are the ones unasked that lead to miscommunication

 

[16:38] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Well. You could say I am one, so, yes c:

 

[16:38] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): I am actually both, lol. a switch, a sub and a slave.

 

[16:39] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *claps agreeing with Miss Vanni*

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nice Lesky!!

 

[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And to which, this goes back to my first post;  self identification is most important.  How you identify is valid to your identity.. Unless you identify as Vanni and are NOT vanni.  There is only one Vanessa Cannoli :)

 

[16:39] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): Thank you Miss Vanni :p

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank god

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok let's move on we have two more comments in the queue

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason-Lenore back to you!

 

[16:41] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Thank you Vanni. Again I was not saying it as a competition or who is kinkier/more submissive. I was simply stating my experience with self-identified submissives and slaves in both first and second life. certainly there have been outliers in both worlds and on both sides of the s/s debate. I never intended for anyone to think that it was a one being better than the other. So I hope it didn't come across that way.

 

[16:41] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):  of course Xaara is an exception where service to the community is much more encouraged.#

 

[16:42] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   nods. Good points.

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason I only meant that in terms of the power exchange.  When I top at the club, the power exchange is limited to the hour or so with very rigid negotiation.  Very low power exchange there.  Subs and slaves give up more for longer periods.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I was not implying a direct line to sub or slave

 

[16:44] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): IMO, top and bottom can apply to vanilla as well. So the line between bottom and sub is a blurry thing since it is basically the same thing, but sub is 100% applicable in a kink context whereas bottom may not.

 

[16:44] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):   nods

 

[16:44] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Just didn't want any others to be confused.

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh sure

 

[16:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning either.   Under that 'Dominants who dedicate themselves to their community and providing serve' would = slaves?

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in vanilla sex or relationship there is usually one who is more "alpha" so to speak

 

[16:45] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Also there is the difference between Top and bottom in the gay community

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Service in a BDSM context is not quite the same as a person doing good for a community IMO

 

[16:46] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): nods in agreement

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or the local priest, pastor, rabbi or imam is a slave *grins*

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   goes to get Father Jim to mop my floor

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (great Priest from my Catholic days...I loved Father Jim)

 

[16:49] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'll use more examples... I have friends in the Ft. Lauderdale leather scene.  They teach instructional classes on Cigar Play, Breath Play, Host Leather Nights, Boot blacking seminars/classes,    None of them identify as 'slave' even to their Dominant.

 

[16:49] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): Service to the BDSM community in a BDSM context without expectation of reward I would think qualifies

 

[16:51] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   throws "servant leadership" on the floor and runs away.

 

[16:51] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I don't associate myself as a slave when I attend events that support this community

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do not think anyone is denigrating the concept of service from anyone.

 

[16:51] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): or when I donate

 

[16:51] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): I do it because me as a person enjoys helping

 

[16:52] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No, but to say that "Slaves" are more prone to serving and volunteering to their community than submissives, I think is a flawed viewpoint.

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Everyone should serve their community, that's part of communitarianism.

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Point taken!

 

[16:52] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): shurgs...done with my 2 cents worth of unsolicited comments

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jason go ahead then we'll go to Magus for a final comment

 

[16:52] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): I have been involved in a few Leather communities and there are lots that do not identify as a slave and some that do. Also 'slave' in Leather is akin to Master, it is generally reserved for those that have achieved a certain level of recognition for their dedication to the community, so boy, girl and slave are honorifics of their own in the Leather community.#

 

[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   nods

 

[16:53] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo):   nods. And the Leather community has their own very strict definitions for those roles.

 

[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): We do

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the Leather Scene is definitely much more structured than a lot of what other folk in the lifestyle do.  And everyone has the niche in which they fit, that's the beauty of what we do.

 

[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We can all agree or disagree and then move on with how we do things. :)

 

[16:54] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): nods

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus you have the floor for the last comment of the day!

 

[16:55] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I'm glad that Breanne brought up the mobility of hierarchy and our place in it. Often lately, I've heard terms like Alpha, Beta, and even Sigma tossed around as being indicators of social status or as a sort of dominance measurement. Consider this a public service announcement: The whole Alpha, Beta, etc. thing as a constant in one's life is a pop psychology idea that was disproven decades ago. We all move through different social roles several times each day.

 

[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!

 

[16:56] Lesky Faycaster (TorchFCaster Resident): I agree with Master here, as I was gonna make a comment on that earlier but failed to put words on it lol

 

[16:56] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood):   nods lots

 

[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Role and status (as a social position) change constantly

 

[16:56] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): I agree very much so with that

 

[16:56] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): well said

 

[16:56] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident):   lips curl up in a grin at the chest thumping gorilla moves

 

[16:57] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Heh. The only place for chest-thumping gorilla moves is in roleplay.

 

[16:57] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): laughs and nods

 

[16:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And from a IT Development Standpoint "Alpha" means still flawed and needing revision, not ready for release into the wild ;)

 

[16:57] Dev Dark (devouredbydarkness Resident): i love gorilla's

 

[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Besides...as a switch...i know what gets my heart thumping is not the savage barked order but the quiet gesture and 'come here'

 

[16:57] Jason-Lenore Blackwood (Malaclypse Blackwood): True Vanni, I have never and will never kneel at your feet, however here I submit to your leadership of the conversation.

 

[16:58] Rachel (RachelHolt Resident): Beta testing for dom ?

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   cracks the whip

 

[16:58] Breanne0725 (Breanne0725 Resident): Wow, never heard it put like that, never put one and one together

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   winks at Jason-Lenore

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you Magnus

 

[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you all for the polite, well reasoned discussion

 

[16:58] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Thank you, all. This has been a wonderful discussion.

[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even when we disagree we all still respect each other and THAT is the important part of this community]

 

[16:59] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thank you Vanessa