[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I think we're ready to roll
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so with that
we'll begin
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and
welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep
further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy! Thank you! ♥
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussion
this week is on rules, or as I said in my notice, what we in the social and
behavioral sciences call "Norms."
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which has nothing
to do with Cheers...if you get the joke... ;)
[16:40] Seli (Seliara Elton): "What's shaking Mr
Peterson?"
[16:40] RB (RBQuinn Resident): is old enough to get it
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:40] Seli (Seliara Elton): "All four cheeks and a
couple'a chins, Woody"
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is going to
be a discussion of behavior, setting rules, both on an interpersonal level (say
between and Dom and sub) and more collectively, on the sim level.
[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <-- Met George
Wendt at his first Fandom Con a few years ago at Pensacon ;) <3
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): How do we as
members of a BDSM community make rules in the D/s relationships we have, here
or elsewhere?
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some subs believe
that they aren't really supposed to "negotiate" but rather just take
whatever rules their Dominant gives them without complaint (which is fine of
course with consent!)
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so on one hand we
have the interpersonal rules between Dom and sub.
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): On the collective
level I'd also like to discuss the rules of Xaara, such as they are.
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Xaara has few
direct rules. They are found here:
https://xaaracommunity.wordpress.com/page/xaara-principles-and-guidelines/
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In the Principles
and Guidelines on the webpage
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Beyond the usual
"everything must be consensual, no idiotic behavior" the rules here
are minimal.
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact the
P&G specifically say this:
"Specific rules will be minimal as everyone is expected to behave
as adults."
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Is that enough to
keep the community going and safe? Do we
need more formalized rules here? And how
do our personal rules we create in our BDSM relationships work with the rules
of the sim? I'd like to think
"seamlessly" but you know...not always lol.
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So when
formulating a response, take it from either side, or combine them. How do you make rules in your own
relationships (D/s style) or how are they imposed on you? Do you feel they work as is, or is there give
and take on rules over time? Or, as I
said above, you can take it from the community level -- do we have enough
rules, too few or too many? How does
Xaara work with our own personal rules and community needs?
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lots of space
here to think and answer.
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll let you
muddle while I sip coffee...
[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seli when you are
ready please!
[16:49] Seli (Seliara Elton): I've always been a fan of
working with "Why" when ever I'm forming rules, rather than just
laying them out as things that cannot be violated. I'll focus on the D/s stuff.
[16:50] Seli (Seliara Elton): While I will often lay out a
rule for Lexi, I think and hope, I mostly explain the thinking and goals behind
it. For two reasons: one, I like to set an intention. You will kneel HERE when
i snap because it makes us look well practiced and you look amazing at my side.
[16:51] Seli (Seliara Elton): But I also think for a second
reason to speak about why, is that it gives subs or any "rule
followers" latitude to try to reach the spirit and goal of the rule, even
if they can't follow the letter of it. I find that to be much more powerful and
effective.#
[16:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Well said
[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love that!
[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I also think that
rules give submissives a goal to strive for, which flows out of what you said.
[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes, maybe one
can't do it perfectly every time, but it's the goal to try that and improve.
[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And to me, it's
willful disobedience that's the problem, not the honest mistake.
[16:53] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): From my
side, I don't necessarily need the 'why'... I just trust there is a 'Why', even
if that 'why' is 'because I want it that way'. But yes, being able to aim for
the 'intent' of a rule if not always able to hit the 'letter' of the rule is
helpful
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!
[16:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): Sometimes the why is
"because it would be HOT."
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and there's room
to improve
[16:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): ...often, in fact.
[16:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): ruffles Lexi's hair.
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Seli and
Lexi for starting us off!
[16:55] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I was taught in
leadership "because I said so/Because I'm the boss" isn't a great
answer - but in BDSM sometimes its the
perfect one :)
[16:55] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I like to say
"no" we don't need more formalized rules. One of the blessings is
that things are open and adaptable with 'expectations' but few
'requirements'. This allows for the
myriad of flavors of D/s * BDSM. For
example, if we were strict in regards to "Subs may only" That removes the agency for those who are
neither Dominant or Submissive, but are more into generalized Kink, or those
who are Switches. As for my own BDSM
& D/s relationship, communication and negotiation are the key. We discuss, negotiate and communicate the
need for various changes and adaptations -
There may be times I am more restrictive and times where I am more
relaxed on them depending on what is going on, and making sure to communicate
the when/why for the changes so as not to create confusion with my girls. We've determined that Protocols help to keep
them in the sub mindset and feed that part of their needs/wants. #done
[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I appreciate you
gave thoughts on both individual and collective norms!
[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A friend was
asking me what the expectations of subs are in Xaara. I said "for a submissive person,
simple: be respectful to Doms and don't
be a jerk."
[16:58] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Exactly we have few
rules, but a couple of expectations - that are flexible based on the
relationship.
[16:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Like the website
says, know your role and don't be silly toward others, you can get on fine.
[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think
flexibility on either the interpersonal or collective level is very important.
[16:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Like you said,
Johan, sometimes the Dom gotta Dominate, and many times it's "let's just
keep our D/s roles going" and all's well.
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): time, place and
circumstance matter
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I appreciate
your answer on both levels!
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to the
lovely Wynter, please!
[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I apologize for
the walls of text in advance, but this is a topic I happen to be passionate
about. (more)
[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Rules for a BDSM
community, can be a slippery slope inside of SL. While Xaara has only three
"actual" rules that apply to everyone, if you decide to go deeper
into the community, more requirements and expectations that are upheld
essentially as rules are also imposed upon you. (more)
[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Arguments in the
past have centered around the idea that you 'consent' to these, whether
Dominant or submissive or Angel+. But it's a dubious slope that seems more like
coerced compliance than true consent in certain aspects. We talk about respect,
I think something else that isn't as talked about is the difference between
"SL etiquette" and recognizing the detachment we have from RL, even
in a place like Xaara which states itself as an "operating similar to a
real world D/s or BDSM club." (more)
[17:01] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): There are no
fast-read tags floating above someone's head to tell you at a glance who is a
Dominant or a submissive. Also, typically, there is no requirement to spout off
honorifics with someone you just met in RL and would be frowned upon
essentially by most as that's something that is typically earned through a
negotiated dynamic.#
[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): At a D/s club (I
attend one on a fairly regular basis) there is no expectation to call anyone
anything unless one is in a D/s relationship with that person.
[17:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I've said
many times, in the RL Kink World, most people are tops and bottoms -- we get
together, get our freak on, and leave.
[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There was only
one person everyone called "Miss Diana" and only because she was a
real "elder" in the community, having been around since the 70s
[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Here we try to
make it more of a D/s community where Doms and subs can interact
[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So i think in
that regard, there are more rules, and like you said Wynter, if one is an Angel
or a Seraph, there are more expectations.
[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think the
theory being "you want deeper submission, here are more expectations"
[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and in theory,
more activities are expected too
[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the question
is....does that make a better submissive and/or a better community? That can be debated yes or no.
[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so that's a lot
to ponder! :)
[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd love if a few
more chewed on that a bit and gave response to what Wynter raised!
[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thanks
Wynter, fabulous thoughts as always
[17:08] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): smiles and nods.
[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm a sociologist
so, like you, normative functions of society are always on my mind!
[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow, you
are up please!
[17:10] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): Thank you Vanni, I
humbly offer as a Community I think it is a good thing to have Rules, as it
creates expectations for our Community and allows for stability. Personally I think ~~ (more)
[17:10] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): I am one who utilizes
"Rules" and do so in a NC early on.
Yet as a Dominant, I find so many dominants see Rules as things the
submissive should follow. In contrast I
see Rules as norms we should both follow.
As an example- Morning Greeting Protocol, what is the the Norm not only
for the sub but for the Dom-- how should I Greet Paca each morning. Another aspect is- if Paca does not follow a
Rule- My first thought is Not what she did wrong, but did I as her Dominant- did
I explain the rule sufficiently so that she understood the Rule? (more)
[17:10] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): Most of the time any
non-adherence to a Rule or Norm is a combination of both parties, along with
the vagaries of being in SL and the limitations of this virtual life.
[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes!
[17:11] Southern Georgia (Southern Georgia): well said vlad
[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What we are doing
is not a formalized relationship like "Manager/Worker" where a
handbook is given and writeups ensue for not following some rule to the letter
[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's a growth
experience
[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): many years ago I
attended a BDSM expo here in Los Angeles, and there was a workshop on this very
topic -- rules and protocols
[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Master in the
community gave a demo with his girl on a greeting ritual
[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): he is Buddhist so
the ritual was a sort of mantra where she kneeled and would recite a mantra to
him
[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so she started
but because it was in public, she got scared and started messing up the ritual
and started crying, saying "I'm sorry Master."
[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but instead of
yelling or saying "Get it right girl" he just got down on one knee,
cupped her face and said 'You can do it, go on, you got this.'
[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and she finished
it and he held her tight
[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i was sobbing
watching this
[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it hit me so hard
to see his care in giving her this thing to do and how he guided her to finish
it
[17:16] Connie (Constanse Levenque): ❤
[17:16] Opie Harmony (Opie Harmony): <3
[17:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So Mr. Darrow, i
think that was a perfect example of what you were describing about rules and
their use :)
[17:16] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): That, I
think, tracks with the general sub mindset, we -want- to get it right for the
Dom... and punish ourselves if we don't
[17:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we as humans are
in general harder on ourselves than others are, Lexis ;)
[17:17] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): as I enjoy that RL
sharing, touching and informative of one way to create power within their
dynamic as a RL D/s couple
[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes :)
[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow very
well said, thank you for your thoughts!
[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i see Johan
typing something (the benefit of chat bubbles) so I'll wait a sec here to see
[17:20] Zaphire Georgia (ZaphireMoonTaurus Resident):
*replaces her 'C'...quietly"
[17:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Zaphire do you
still want to comment?
[17:21] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the problem
with the 'guidelines/expectations'=Rules mindset is it has the opportunity to
create more problems. For ex. Its generally understood that Submissives
should (Angels+ required) to use a Honorific for Dominants. It's not required that you use their exact
title - but an honorific. My own Submissive
Kahlan greeting Laz one day "Good day Sir Laz, its wonderful to see
you!" because she has the mindset
that "I" am her Only "Master" and all others are
'SIr/Miss". Another Dominant
jumped into her IM's and chastised her saying "He's Master Laz, Kahlan. He
is the owner of the SIM and you need to use his correct title". Kahlan respectuflly replied "in our
agreed relationship my sir, is my only "Master" so I use Sir/Miss for
everyone. " With that the Dominant
rightly backed off, but truly they shouldn't have felt the need to involve
based on the ACTUAL guidelines of the SIM.
#done.
[17:21] Zaphire Georgia (ZaphireMoonTaurus Resident): Oh
yes...why thank you. Community rules in D/s spaces must be handled with care,
as they govern safety and culture but they cannot and should not be replaced or
negotiated D/s authority. Public rules provide a baseline for conduct, yet
privately owned dynamics require distinct, individualized rule sets shaped by
consent, negotiation, and intent. A submissive’s rules center on service,
boundaries, and accountability; a Dominant’s on stewardship, restraint, and
ethical authority; a switch’s on clarity and contextual control. When community
rules overreach into private personal power exchanges, consent risks shifting
from choice to compliance blurring
etiquette with authentic D/s practice rather than supporting it. . I
think a suggestion for clarification needs to be provided....when identifying
exactly what is considered a 'Xaara Submissive'. ‘Switch’,
Tag...collar...etc....and..how the rules apply...or do not...to others.#
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok hee...let's
hit both of these
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): first the Xaara
rules state that only Sir or Miss are to be used
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anything else is
up to the s-type and their Dom if they have one
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So even if I
wanted subs calling me "Grande Poobah" that's a wish and I couldn't
command it
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I could ask but
they always have right of refusal
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i'd look silly
too lol
[17:25] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): I don't
think it's a 'rule' as such, but... At Xaara, Doms sit in chairs, Subs kneel.
Though I think that's more a 'role' thing than a 'rule' thing. My point is
there is a correlation: roles imply rules.#
[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A role is a set
of expected behaviors
[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which are guided
by norms
[17:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but at the same
time, the norms flow out of the role,
here as Dominant or Submissive or Vanilla
[17:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's what we
call "reciprocal action" in Sociology ;)
[17:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which kind of
dovetailed into what Zaphire said
[17:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I did like how she contextualized the
convergence of community rules to interpersonal ones
[17:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she also said
that we need to clarify what each role is.
Does the webpage do an adequate job of that (like Xaara Sub, Dominant,
etc) or is more clarification necessary?
(that's a question so feel free to answer if you want, no C please
[17:33] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): As a Community we get to
decide to follow the expected Norms, or not- the Rules do state "strongly
encouraged" regarding honorifics (quotes in original)- My reading is it a
rule- No, would it be better if it was a Rule- Yes. Yet given it is a Norm in our Community, we
are better off following this Norm as a Rule.
If we say the Norm is unnecessary or subject to individual interpretation
we induce chaos, as compared to stability. Rule to follow from Xaara website:
[17:33] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): A Xaara Submissive is
*strongly encouraged* to:
- address
Xaara Masters or Xaara Mistresses by the titles Master or Mistress, unless
the individual gives you specific instruction to the contrary.
- address
Xaara dominants (male or female) as Sir or Miss respectively.
[17:34] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): There's ambiguity
between the different pages on how the rules scale. If you look at the Xaara
Submissive expectations, they're actually more 'strict' in application, albeit
"*strongly encouraged*".. the expectation actually relaxes when one
attains Angel, at least in application of the expectation.
[17:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok so that is
something to bring up
[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): because while it
says that, it's never been enforced to my knowledge by the actual sim owners
and SC
[17:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and if Angels and
Seraphim get to choose while subs are more "strongly encouraged" then
it seems bass-ackwards
[17:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think
encouraging all subs to use a title they see is a good thing.
[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): unless told not
to use it by their own Dom or their conscience
[17:37] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): I like how
'rules light' Xaara is... it broadens the appeal of the place, makes it less
exclusionary. One of the side effects of SL is because you can make EXACTLY the
SL you want... it creates a diaspora where there are an infinite number of
'specific' sims... and community is lost.
[17:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't wanna
role play "BDSM North Korea" lol
[17:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but lack of rules
leads to anarchy, and while Anarchy in the UK is a great song, it's not that
great in practice...
[17:38] Paca Kynx (LovinReese Resident): the rules as
written to me says i do not need to follow proper honorifics and cannot be held
accountable for not. But in the
community it is based al the same. sub
use proper protocol, correct honorifics
[17:39] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): An as an aside see the
genderification of how often a Xaara Master is called Master ( not Sir) as
compared to a Xaara Mistress is called Miss ( as compared to the honorific she
has earned to be called Mistress).
[17:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods
[17:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok let me go the
queue
[17:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexis did you get
your intended comment out?
[17:41] Lexis Evertied (Lexisevertied Resident): lack of
rules doesn't lead to anarchy, anarchy leads to anarchy, rebelling AGAINST
rules is anarchy. Societal norms form community common assent forms community.
Some basic, fundamental rules are needed for community to function, but
otherwise, more rules just become a vice (both the squeezing kind and the
addictive kind)
[17:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): correct!
[17:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The sociologist
agrees with you
[17:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I simply used
"anarchy" as the term we would use, "Anomie" isn't well
known and anarchy is sort of close to it
[17:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well said thanks
lexis!
[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow did
you get your original C out?
[17:44] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): I did Ms Vanni thank you
[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok good!
[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we will go on to
Wynter again as i know she did not get hers out yet
[17:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then we're back
on track
[17:44] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): So, let me
approach this topic from a different angle, one that may not be as easily
represented. For those who may be unaware, I'm a late diagnosed high masking
autistic who also has rather severe ADHD. BDSM and Consent happen to be two of
my special interests. There was a meme one day about sadistically tying up and
gagging a neurodivergent submissive and telling them false information about a
special interest, and yeah.. the suffering would be real in that case. (more)
[17:45] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): For me and for a
lot of neurodivergent folks, we're going to pick up on and notice any inequity
or perceived injustice in how rules or standards are upheld. It's referred to
as "Justice Sensitivity." Put that together with the fact that most
of us who are on the spectrum are extremely literal when it comes to anything
communicated and our strong desire to follow the rules as we understand them,
if we perceive something that doesn't make sense or violates our understanding
of the rules, we're going to struggle to make sense of it. (more)
[17:45] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I know some might
end up being indifferent about that, however when it's estimated that 1 in 5
people are neurodivergent, there's a good chance there's at least 2-3 other
neurodivergent people in this room right now by the statistics. For the
community at large, that's 20%, which also is about the representation for
switches in the lifestyle to put that in perspective. So perhaps a different
way of looking at it, is ensuring the rules or expectations can't be subject to
interpretation in a way that may create a perceived injustice or inequity. I
think that can apply to any place, and thank you for your words, Zaphire.
That's essentially what I was trying to say earlier.#
[17:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for that
Wynter. I completely understand your
viewpoint and I do think that rules should be upheld in an equitable manner.
[17:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That said, as I
teach criminology and we talk about police, courts and corrections, there is
also the concept of discretion
[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Meaning agents in
the CJ system need to look at a situation and decide what's best there and then
[17:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): give a ticket or
not, impose a harsher or lighter sentence to three persons guilty of the same
crime? Facts and circumstances also need
to be taken into consideration.
[17:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so sometimes
equity means not doing always the same thing too. But the facts and circumstances have to be
taken into consideration.
[17:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that said, I
think what you said, equity is what needs to be kept in mind.
[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if a rule is
being broken or changed in an arbitrary manner, that is actual the opposite of
promoting equity
[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's favoritism
[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that left
unchecked will harm a community
[17:51] Paca Kynx (LovinReese Resident): C on vani
[17:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Paca
[17:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After Paca we'll
go back to you Johan for the last comment of the day
[17:54] Paca Kynx (LovinReese Resident): KInda of touching
back on Wynter as well. I have BPD.
Master and i had to sit down and adjust the rules so i have room to be
able to accommodate my bad days, so while there might be "base
rules" they are never a cookie
cutter thing. rightfully so.ALso, i NEED
rules. they help my brain be less spicy and i feel more in control of my life
to have them.
[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!
[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are humans,
we're all dynamic
[17:55] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): smiles and nods.
[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we change over
time
[17:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so rules can't be
written on a stone in cuneiform lol
[17:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and each person
has to be looked at with their own needs and desires. Spot on!
[17:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you
Wynter, what you said is very spot on as well
[17:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok Johan go ahead
and give it us as our last comment for
the day!
[17:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the disconnect between the various
guidelines on the website between "Submissive-Angel-Seraph" is
largely due to different pages being updated at different times by different
people. From my understanding a few of
the pages have been overhauled while others may not yet have been. I know that some of the pages and
guidelines were updated (particularly
the Angel/CS Guidelines) but other ones probably were not. Another thing to
consider is the something that comes up often in sports * rpg's "Rules as Written (RAW) vs. Rules as
Intended"
[17:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): key to Airpower" (and I used to add, and help prevent injuries
during physical activity) #done
[17:58] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): smirks knowingly about the RAW reference.
[17:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly!
[17:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which was my
comment with police and courts
[17:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Robo-Cop and
Robo-Judge are what we want to avoid
[17:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): human elements in
CJ and Military and other institutions are very important
[17:59] Seli (Seliara Elton): takes a note: "At Xaara, we like it RAW
(?)"
[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol!
[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well that's a
personal preference!
[18:00] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Consensually of
course :)
[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But right, I
agree Johan, rules are good but context matters.
[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent
conversation!
[18:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Remember we are
kicking ideas around here
[18:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which helps the
community thrive
[18:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): finally i'd like
to remind y'all about our Graduation Ceremony next week
[18:01] Vlad (VladDarrow Resident): Thank You Mistress Vanni
:) and all wonderful thoughts shared
[18:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): someone here
*looks at Johan* is gonna become a full on Master Adept I hear!
