[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[08:13] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I can't seem to finish these discussions without getting called away, Bye E/everyone
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Hasta la Pasta, CC!
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: I got a call just as this started to go service Vladimir Putin. I said they have to be Put-in me on!
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli points at Brianne
[08:15] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!
[08:15] Rachel Reid: Oh lord lolololol
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you! I will try to follow my own advice.
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021. I will finally have time to update it this week. Damn students.
[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Last week we discussed "Brats" and how the bratty sub can really stir the pot for some.
[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Switches seem to cause some consternation as well, but for different reasons.
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: There are three ways, at least, that "switch" can be used
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: the first is when a person can "switch" between a D-type and an S-type.
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: There are D/s houses in SL that have a 'chain' going, with a top Dominant, and then His or Her or Their subs, who are Dominants to their own subs, who have their own subs....down the line
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: It's floggers, not turtles, all the way down.
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So the ones in the "middle" switch to being a D-type or an S-type depending on the context.
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: A second kind of "switch" is pretty common in First Life BDSM communities, a person who will go to a club, or in SL I imagine to play parties or such things, and do different scenes
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So a person might go to the club, be a Top in one scene, and then in a second one be a Bottom, or vice versa
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: I can't imagine anyone who would do such a thing, it seems horrid. *coughs*
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: the third was I've heard switch used is in a scene itself, when the Bottom will at some point grab the Top and they "switch". This is usually some negotiated scene change.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: There are a few people in my RL community that enjoy that kind of in-scene switching.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: of course, it begs the question, who is really the Top and who is really the Bottom? Does it matter?
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: In SL, switching seems to cause issues for some.
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Some Dominants say that they want a "pure submissive"
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Not one with D-type tendencies
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Some submissives see switches as sort of not completely trustworthy
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Or they can't wrap their heads around a Dom/me that likes to get their jollies on the other side as well. One sub (not here) I talked to was crying to me about her Domme being a switch, saying she couldn't stand the idea of "Mistress on her knees"
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: She had lost all faith in her Mistress.
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: These are real emotions, I'm not making fun, let me be clear.
[08:25] ᴠɪᴠᴠʏ: I could understand that.
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: So while some people really enjoy the idea of switching, others find problems with it.
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I'm sure many who have been around here for a while remember the issues we had with it about a year and a half ago.
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: As I remember, Master Laz had to step in and sort of calm things down.
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: And He is pretty hesitant to do such, so it says quite a bit about the consternation.
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So what are Y/your ideas on switches and switching? Good, bad, ugly, indifferent? Fun? Baneful?
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Let's start with Master Ballard please!
[08:30] Ballard: I would posit that in the kind of play you are describing, the title top or bottom does not matter at all. It's play, not a long term situation. Sometimes a switch will be in a long term relationship, in a steady role with someone, yet also want to have the other experience at times, usually with someone other than their constant. I have been in relationships like that, where my submissive had boys of her own. It worked well, because we kept our heads clear. A healthy open house dynamic lends itself well to such arrangements.
My only issue with switches in Xaara, as you mentioned before, is that there was a perception that someone was using the switch option 'tactically' to get what they want, or to attend confidential meetings for both sides. It felt exploitive, and made it impossible to deal with them and know who you were really dealing with. That said, we remained on good terms Many people felt it was a cheap tactic..#
[08:31] Vanni Cannoli knows of what Master Ballard speaks.
[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: There was a lot of that kind of talk, going around, Sir.
[08:32] Ballard: It became quite tense.
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And as a switch myself, I do agree that getting that kick on the other side should be with a different person. I find it problematic to the D/s relationship myself about being topped by someone that wants me as their Dominant, or vice versa. It can cause an issue in the dynamic IMO. But people do it and as long as it's consensual, it's good with me what others do!
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you, Sir, for starting us off well!
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Vivvy, please!
[08:37] ᴠɪᴠᴠʏ: I have tried to be a sub before. But it was not for me. I think we must have something at heart that says we are one or the other. I think some do switch just to get all the way around. And maybe some are able to determine the space in the middle they are most comfortable with. I can also see where it could be problematic getting confused trying to top from the bottom or using that strength in situations that make them unhappy. I learned a lot trying to shut down my strengths in my heart. And was painful for me. So that let me know I am not a sub.
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Miss, and that's a very clear it to look at it. Thank You!
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's go to Julie please
[08:39] Julie: I don't see a problem with a Mistress being a switch if she is open and honest with Her sub(s) about it. As subs we can also have switch tenancies that we might want to explore and if we're owned it would take a special Miss to allow us to do such just as it takes a special sub to understand a Miss's desires to switch. Open and honest conversations and communication I think are the keys in any relationship and even more so if one, or more, have switch tenancies/desires.
[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: I agree 100%! Honest and open communication is the only way to maintain any kind of relationship.
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Julie, that was a good comment and again, open and direct communication is 100% the key to any success in a relationship.
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Brianne please! Ok Blondie, go ahead!
[08:43] Brianne: My sister, Kitty, has recently started playing the role of my Miss (esp. puppy owner). I'm lucky because I get the extra dominating attention that I need when Mistress is unavailable, and some training reinforcement as well. Kitty has wanted to explore her topping nature to see how far it goes. It's working out great. We knew each other a long time as sub sisters, sharing our most secret thoughts, being in love. Dropping that into a D/s framework has been amazing! We really 'get' each other. So I've learned that switching has some unique advantages. And it's amazing to me to watch her switch modes back when Mistress shows up. Switches do not lose my respect at all; far from it!
[08:44] Brianne: #
[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: "advantages" and "extra domination" *giggles*
[08:46] Vanni Cannoli gets the Domination hose for Brianne
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: ok we'll go to Laila
[08:48] Laila Raines: Thank you Vanni. So my question to the group is "How do you truly distinguish between a switch and a submissive that likes to push boundaries (back against their Dom/me) and/or tries to Top from the bottom?
[08:49] Laila Raines: #
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Hmm good question
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: if anyone wants to answer, please go ahead, do not put a C in
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: otherwise we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom
[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: or Cs bottoming, and maybe they want to Top
[08:51] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!
[08:51] Ballard: All I would say is that sounds likje time for a porch talk, Laila
[08:51] Aspen Diamond: I have found that if you show weakness then the sub will top from the bottom. Mistress.
[08:51] SAM: I'll give my thoughts.... since this one and I have been talking about it. How it feels to the submissive and the dominant matters. if a submissive feels good when topping from the bottom, then maybe she’s got dominant tendencies, if she feels frustrated then she's not getting filled up
[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Good points!
[08:52] SAM: if the dominant feels good when being topped from the bottom then maybe HE has switching tendencies
[08:53] PRIM: aila:- A switch is a dominant when they are in that mode and is hard to miss. a sub should know and understand their boundaries that is the difference for myself anyway...in the begining a sub pushing the boundaries will be expected but as time goes by and all grwo then the need to push should be overridden by their desire to please their Dominant
[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: I knew a couple that would log into SL and then decided who was the Domme and who was the sub based on their feelings that day, actually I knew TWO couples over the years that did that.
[08:53] SAM: are there other mechanisms a switch submissive can use to see if she's really just pushing boundaries and not a switch?
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: I don't think "pushing against one's Dominant" makes a person a switch, I think that brings into question the nature of their relationship with that Dominant. If they're endlessly pushing, either something is wrong, or they are a brat and maybe the Dom/me wasn't ready for that.
[08:55] Jo Silverwing: I owned a sub that owned one of my alts, I decided which side I wanted to play when logging.
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: This again, is why clear communication is necessary.
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that question, Laila! WE have a lot of people in the queue so we must move on.
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Peaches it put you back in automagically, so you are up!
[08:56] Peaches Svenska: I was a switch for years in Gor. In public, I was a high ranking Free Woman with male slaves of my own, but behind closed doors of the family household, I was Master Ballard's slave.
When we left Gor, and i was finally purged of the bad parts of Gorean philosophy since coming here to Xaara, I lost most of the inclination to switch. I am a submissive, to be sure... but a smart, articulate subbie male really makes my switch twitch. But..I dont have it in me to manage both, I'm supremely content with my life as a submissive.
I have been Rouge's Mistress since she has been with Master Ballard, from the days of Gor..and even here, she still, privately, refers to me as Mistress..which is perfectly fine with me..she needs that from me, here in Xaara, and since our relationship is non-sexual, only nurturing..I'm happy to be that for her. #
[08:57] Ballard: AND I love that you both do that.
[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: That's great, Peaches!
[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops in my RL BDSM community is a slave to her Mistress, but at the same time, Tops a lot in the dungeon AND has a boi she has a D/s love relationship with.
[08:58] Brianne: Awesome.
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Diana, the Dominant Mistress, doesn't care what Mo/e does, as long as "her windows are cleaned and dinner is made" lol
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: so there you go!
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Peaches!
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up please!
[09:00] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,
I found out the hard way that I was a switch ((IN REAL)) and through it was really the way to be in BDSM to fit in. When I started in FetLife then it open the world up for me. I liked at the time being in charge when I had a weak Dom. I could become the director of the scene. Yes, I had my toys of floggers, paddles, and ect. I took classes and leaned how to flog. Yes, it gave me power.
When I started going to a Master dungeon after a munch because he would open his house up I started looking at that. I flog one of the Masters who wanted to see my skill set of flogging. When I made him hard is when he knew how good I could do it. Then he took me and tied me to the cross is when he found out that I am truly a submissive. That then turned my world upside down and showed how I surrender to him.. When he and I were doing the sex dance later that night he rolled me on top of him and I did not like feeling that I became the switch again.
When I entered Gor and Xaale I knew I was a submissive.
[09:00] Aspen Diamond: That is who I am now.
- S. I sometimes have to catch myself from Topping From the Bottom. I need to be called out for that. I am such a dominant in real with the kids i have done my switching when I get home. I want to be that submissive to whom I can submit to a powerful Dominant. .
Master Sam made a great point and I see why when I try to top from the bottom is the frustrations of not getting what I need. You need that open conversation and being honest to your Dom/Mistress to let them know what and who you are.
Peaches, No matter if you are in a poly house hold and you were Master Ballards slave coming from Gor you are still First Girl know matter what. This is the way I look at in a poly relationship of being the first girl on that chain.
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli hands Aspen her book contract
[09:02] Vanni Cannoli grins
[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: I'd just like to point out, Aspen, that "topping from the bottom" doesn't mean that a sub has to be passive all the time. It means trying actively to manipulate the Dominant or take their place in the power exchange.
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Lots of good items there. Peaches you have a comment to Aspen?
[09:03] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni
[09:04] Peaches Svenska: no disrespect intended, but your view of our house is not quite correct. Master Ballard is the top and we three girls kneel side by side at his feet. Our personal roles are so varied they cannot be compared or ranked
[09:04] Aspen Diamond: Can someone be my editor because I do have a book I just writtien.
[09:04] Peaches Svenska: IM me Aspen..I'll give you my price!
[09:05] Ballard: We do not employ ranks, no first girl.
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks, Peaches.
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Yeah I'm not into that idea personally either, Sir. No "first/second/seventy-third" for me. Everyone under the Dom/me is equal in respect and consideration.
[09:06] Vanni Cannoli was asked once to be #8 in what this Domme said would be 20 or more. Vanni politely declined.
[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: That said, of course, how people set up their situation is their biz and if it works, great!
[09:07] Sam Cabot: Reminds me of one of the reasons I left Gor. 6 IS a long chain to hold.
[09:07] Aspen Diamond: Peaches, Thank you for that correction and I do know that each poly house hold has their rules. Thank you. Kisses and Hugs
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Sir SAM is up now, please
[09:07] Sam Cabot: I have a submissive who in the last one year has slowly been letting out more of her sexually aggressive side. (scratching, biting, pushing etc). And I'm actually happy she feels free to express one of her urges/needs. She still asks me if it is ok to let the beast out before she does anything and says I only dare do this with because I know you can tame the beast if you want. That is not topping from the bottom, or switching. It is only a way to let out that intense passion and energy with someone who makes you feel safe.#
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: lol well it was SAM as opposed to Sam *grins*
[09:08] SAM: laughs, ok...Vanni can I slip in after greedy Sam?
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Imagine if we were all really called "Bruce"
[09:08] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫
[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: And sir Sam...I agree! A fiesty sub is exactly what many Dom/mes like. As long as they know where their final place should be, being active can be a good thing. But of course, some subs are really passive and they need their feelings nurtured too. Something for everyone!
[09:10] SAM: we're taking over the world... just saying
[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sir Sam, we now go to Sir SAM. lol .. where is Sir SaM?
[09:10] SAM: I agree with Vivvy's earlier comment, I had a switch as a playmate and I let her tie me up... I lasted all of 3 minutes before I had a panic attack; Submissives really are the strong ones! My comment is I dont like the mentality that a dominant doesnt understand submission unless they have submitted themselves, that seems to be a thought I've heard to promote switching as something we all should do. I do experiment with things, see how they feel before asking them of my submissive, using a crop on my hand, etc but thats different. I'll end by saying I very much enjoy having submissives who self identify as having switching tendencies. Ive heard of them referred to as Alpha Submissives, or Warrior Princess submissives although labels aren't really important IMO. What is important to me is they seem to trend to being strong, confident and take charge in their lives and from my end it seems extra special to have earned their submission.
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Plus a Dom/me gets to watch their charge beat the s**t out of someone, and then maybe both of them service said Dom/me after...seems win/win to me....
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Prim, You are up please!
[09:13] PRIM: these are only my thoughts on this subject matter
[09:14] PRIM: As many have already stated
communication
Communication
Communication......
Dominant Master Mistress Switch sub slave pet baby girl blue pink apple orange mazda ford these are all just names..
With in our lifestyle tolerance is a fundamental foundation stone and respect for a person regardless of tag / title etc is a must any who find it hard to accept need time to reflect..sadly when a preconceived idea and notion one has on a particular hmm subject matter can be seriously shaken when that preconceived notion is suddenly altered..
we all need to seriously think about what we do do and how it may affect those we are close too...and that is as much for Dominants as subs etc ...
For myself a switch is just that a name it is the person behind it that you need to look at..we all have our own ideas and understandings but we are all here because we enjoy growing learning and evolving..
at the end of the day it si the interaction between family members that is of concern and not for any one else to worry unless
[09:14] PRIM: there is clear signs of abuse which is totally unacceptable in any form
My feelings on this topic
I myself have had Switches as slaves and subs who have had their own subs etc i never found an issue as long as all are honest open respectful and seeking to be where they are....Knowing ones place is essential for Dominant and sub..#
[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: all very well said, Sir!
[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sir Prim, that is a clear and concise set of ideas surrounding this topic.
[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard, you put in that C about an hour ago, so we wind back to You please!
[09:18] Ballard: My simple question is: Is it appropriate to use and alt for switching? Not to hide or lie, but for clarity. When you meet this Avatar, they are dominant. When you meet this one, they are submissive. Does that make sense, would it even work? I really do not know the answer, but I know some people that do that, often in different sims. (Maybe Dominant in Xaara, but a submissive alt in Roissey, for example)#
[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Well I can speak for myself, Sir, I keep my D-type tendencies out of Xaara, but I don't use an alt. I just feel for the sake of clarity to keep things separate.
[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: But I'd not create "Vanni 2.0" to do that.
[09:22] SAM: I'll comment now... some people are sensitive to Alts and others arent. for me, I only ask for honesty and transparency if an Alt is in use. It makes sense to me that it's easier with Firestorm, friends lists, outfits and props to have a differeent AV for clarity for some
[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: we need to move on as Phoenix has been waiting a long time, go ahead please!
[09:22] PRIM: i am needing to go thank you all for your comments they are all truly thought provoking and give cause to much thought thanks vanni for another excellent eveing (for me)
[09:22] Phoenix Rising: I swear I wanted to sit and queltly listen when I came, but the comment about a sub topping from the bottom when a dom shows weaknesuspet me.To me that dynamic is not switching and not even D/s. It;s just toxic. A dominat mindset is whe you're redy to take responsibility for your sub and yourself and switching for a sub means entering that menatl space. And for a dom switching means leaving it and instead entering the world where they are responsible only for themselves. Only vanillas aren;t responsible for anything #
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: I agree with you that topping from the bottom is a pretty toxic situation in a D/s setting. If someone is exploiting a weakness, that's not submission.
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for that comment, sorry it took so long to get to you!
[09:25] Phoenix Rising: no worries Vanni
[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen do you have a final comment?
[09:28] Aspen Diamond: Vanni, It has been great once more to meet ever Sunday here for me and I think to all of the others here. Please keep doing this Love you Very much.
[09:29] Vanni Cannoli: Ok well then that closes our discussion for today, thank Y/you all for participating!
[09:30] Vanni Cannoli: Next week we'll finish this discussion with a look at "service tops and bottoms"
No comments:
Post a Comment