[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: alrighty time to get started!
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: I'll start with the usual blurb
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: This week we will end our series of discussions on "types" of BDSM and D/s relationships
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Having gone over each aspect of the BDSM acronym
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: And then looking at various kinds of Dominant/Sub/Slave relationships
[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Remember that as next weekend is Memorial Day weekend in the USA, we will NOT have a klatch, I love Y/you all, but not that much as I'm getting out of bed early on a holiday weekend :P
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So this week, in our final discussion in this series, we will go over the concept of the "Service Top" and "Service Bottom"
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: There are a lot of different ways to define these, and I'm hoping in this discussion we can really "Flesh Out" the idea
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: In general a Service Top is a person that is not heavily drawn to BDSM acts like tying, flogging, etc, stuff we associate with the "Top" in a scene
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: This could be for example a Dominant who is heavily drawn to the D/s aspect of the connection, but will flog/beat on their charge to keep them happy
[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Or it could be a person that identifies more as "sub" but will take on the Top role for another, maybe another member of the D/s family, or even at times their Owner who likes to switch. We talked about that a bit last week.
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Likewise a "Service Bottom" is a person who may not be very drawn to the BDSM aspect of things, but will willingly serve another as a bottom, within their limits, of course.
[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So perhaps a sub who knows their Dominant really likes flogging, and will consent to being flogged, while reading another chapter of "Great Expectations" while it's going on lol
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Speaking for myself, I can say in many ways, my submission is to Xaara, as there is no Dominant in my life that directs me. So I serve Xaara with my time and my talents and feel happy when I know I do a job that serves others.
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So "service sub" doesn't have to be in a BDSM aspect, it can be in other ways.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Another example is the Community Slaves
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Who may not be tied to a particular Dom/me, but serve the whole community with their time and bodies.
[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So that's an excellent example of the "Service Sub/Bottom"
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: In any case, this is a different kind of Dominant/Sub kind of connection than we often see here, but I thought it would be good to have a discussion on.
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: So let's start...what do Y/you think of Service Tops and Bottoms? What kinds of roles do they play? Do Y/you consider yourself in line with one of these?
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Master RB, you start us off today!
[08:25] RB Quinn: It is not that I don't *enjoy* whacking a pretty bottom or reddening a bosom.... but I don't crave it in and for itself. But I *do* love the intimacy, the power exchange and the connection it implies. And, if my submissive does crave it (smiles warmly to his Sensi), then I am delighted to provide.#
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: So, Master RB, your essential being as a Dominant comes primarily from the D/s connection, but You happily provide the BDSM acts to Your charges and You do get something from it, even if it's not Your "primary focus?"
[08:27] RB Quinn: Exactly so, Vanni :)
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent!
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard, we come to You please!
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: When You are ready. :)
[08:29] Ballard: I will agree with RB, and add a dimension to this entire arena of talk. I often do something for a play partner that maybe is not something I'm thrilled about. BUT, if she reacts, and I see that I have affected her, then indeed I get a lot out of it. Perhaps 80% of my gratification is knowing that I had an emotional affect on my partner, that I rocked her world. I study a woman, to see what really winds her up, then, if all goes well, I can play her body like a grand piano, and get her soaring. In doing that, I soar right beside her.
Does that make me a service top? Trust me, I also take what I want for myself.
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Well I don't think there is any single "definition" to the term, Master Ballard. *grins* And the person who serves the other still has to have some exchange back.
[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: So I do agree in a way you "serve" your partners while still retaining Your connection as the Dominant person.
[08:32] flo: I am a service bottom, I like to be a little gear in the machine that keeps Xaara running, it gives me a feeling of usefulness and contentment and I also like to be available to serve with my body if it is wished for, I like the flexibility of this approach, because you deal with so much different persons and their likes and preferences, in my service I try to adjust to each Dominant#
[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: That was a very good example. Thank You.
[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: And we go to flo LOL
ask that everyone wait until I get to Y/you, thank Y/you!
[08:34] flo: sorry
[08:34] flo: I entered too early
[08:34] flo: hahaha
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: No worries, I just didn't want to get everyone going and we'd lose track of who said what :P
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: So flo, you definitely identify as a Service Bottom as you connect to many different Dominant persons here
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: and adjust to them
[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: I think that's a very clear example of a "service bottom"...in service to many rather than just to one.
[08:36] flo: yes, I try to be fluid and connect with a preference and likes of a Dominant#
[08:36] flo: in my service*
[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: As a follow up, do you then not see yourself as being a sub to a single Dominant at some point? Does this give you what you need fully without that single D/s element?
[08:37] Ballard: C @ Flo
[08:37] flo: I do have a main D/s dynamic, but I am not collared by this main
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Gotchya Flo :)
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you, excellent insight from a community slave :)
[08:38] flo: which I am perfectly fine with, I don't need to be collared to someone to have a connetion
[08:39] flo: I am done
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Ok now Miss Joanne we come to you, let me put Your comment back in chat
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: [08:32] Joanne: as you stated, BDSM acts.. isn't it better to say the service Top/bottom doesn't want the D/s
[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: That's certainly another way to define this kind of service, Miss.
[08:41] Joanne: I just think when you're defining things like this its important to be clear, as flo stated she has her own D/s setup, that is separate from her wishes to be a service bottom.
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!
[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: In First Life, I am a Top, I go to my club (which should hopefully open in June again! Yay!) and I look for Bottoms who want to have the tar beat out of them.
[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: I have no desire to be a Domme outside of that setting
[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: But I don't consider myself a "Service Top" any more than I consider any of them to be a "Service Bottom"
[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: We just like getting together and having kinky fun.
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: so I very much agree that words and definitions matter, but I also think each person or persons are going to self-identify and figure out what they mean to their own particular settings.
[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: If that makes sense?
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Master RB, you have a comment about Miss Joanne's?
[08:44] RB Quinn: If we are voting, though, I would come down on the reverse of Joanne's definition.#
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: I don't think we need a hard or single definition, Master RB :P
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Everyone's comment is perfectly valid in a particular context.
[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: But I think that flo does like serving the whole community as a bottom (community slave) while at the same time expressing her D/s desires with her primary connection
[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: So Miss Joanne's comment certainly is correct as well :")
[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: thank You Miss Joanne! :)
[08:47] Joanne: my pleasure Vanni x
[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Doxie, you are up please!
[08:47] Doxie Sixpence: here we go .......
[08:47] Doxie Sixpence: I think I fall into this service sub class, though certainly I have experienced some more physical aspects of bdsm and found them exciting. But mostly my own thing comes from being supportive and doing what my Master needs from me in return for clear direction and being cared for. Though I also try to do the same for Xaara. Does that fit? or is it something else completely? #
[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Now you brought up a really good point...is there a distinction between a "service sub" and a "service bottom?"
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Your connection to Sir Dean is D/s primarily, same to Xaara as a Seraph
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Which is how I view myself in that regard
[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: If you were a "Service Bottom" as we're generally describing it, you would consensually do BDSM acts (as opposed to D/s) for someone and primarily feel good about the fact you served them in that way.
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Even if you weren't over the top, orgasmically thrilled with them
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: If that makes sense?
[08:51] Doxie Sixpence: it does
[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: As opposed to when I go to the club and beat the tar out of someone...we both get that high in different ways. We over the top enjoy it. *grins*
[08:53] ღ Desi™ღ Beaumont: its more about the contract that two parties make with each other, A sub or slave can give the same type of service. Its more about who is giving and who is receiving and why
[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Sir PRIM, please!
[08:54] PRIM: Thanks vanni...as with a question with multiple answers, mine will always be the correct one...chuckles :-))....nice comment doxie... as are all the comments thus far...
[08:54] PRIM: is there a difference in service / bottom sub.....Dominant connection or is it just naturally a sub / slave wanting to do what they desire and need to do..
Be it serving a community a sim or a Dominant makes no difference it is still that desire to serve and please... i think of it as a simple system that can be expanded from a singular Dominant to a multitude of Dominants with the same basic desire still being pursued...
Regardless of if it is my own sub / slave or a sim sub / slave they should all be cherished respected admired and protected for that special gift they do offer for those they choose to serve... remember all subs / slaves appreciate seeing that they have served well and pleased ...so do not ignore them when they have finished serving let them see and feel just how much you are pleased...A Dominant is to guide nurture and assist a sub / slave to learn grow and evolve .. not to belittle and destroy##
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Sir! Service is service and s-types get really happy when they hear "job well done!"
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Great words and comment, thank You Sir!
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, you are up please!
[08:56] Hunter: You might regret calling on me...
[08:56] Hunter: Sorry this is a long one. I'm a fucking gobshite when I get going. I enjoy both service bottoming and topping. It features heavily in most of what I do within the community and in my own dynamics. I often service top for my Mistress, Lady Rose in RL, and also with the pups in my pack. I have enjoyed doing both for scene demonstrations at events and during pup moshes. As a sub, I can appear to be 90% top. But if you got to know me well enough, you would see what I am pretty damn versatile with a very toppy personality that really gets in the way a lot of the time. I get the vast majority of my pleasure from providing services and having my aggressive sexual nature controlled by someone with more power and presence than myself. In the pup and handler community I work a lot of the time as a service pup, which is something many may not have heard of. A service pup is someone who fits different roles as needed to provide to the community. It could be supporting a new puppy, acting as a handler, providing
[08:56] Hunter: training, or monitoring the mats during a mosh (similar type of thing for a dungeon monitor). While it may look like the desire is to be in charge and control others, under the surface is a desire to serve in a way that meets your skills, personality, interests and provides for others. I strongly and passionately serve the PAH community, in a way many of the Xaara subs and slaves serve Xaara. Personally, I want to feel under the thumb of someone stronger than myself. I crave the D/s dynamics as much as any other might, I just love to have fun and do what makes me happy.. Which just happens to be service bottoming and topping. I want that authority to stand under. Defining anything is hard in this lifestyle, and it is so easy to try and put yourself into a box to feel comfy. But I feel that being yourself and shrugging off the expectations from others to live your life how you feel most comfortable under the BDSM umbrella is a priority. To the latest question. The only distinction I would say is the action.
[08:56] Hunter: One takes the top, one takes the bottom. The main reasoning is pretty much the same, but the personal reasons for doing either or both are entirely unique to that individual. #
[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Well you did say a lot Hunter, and I think a lot of what you said does very clearly connect to the service top and bottom kind of connections.
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Hunter!
[09:00] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni, I have always been in serving others. As I worked the hospitals I would always call the doctors Sir's, You could tell from what doctors really like that then Doctor so and so. I was in a single group in my very earlier years in my twenty's that I was always serving men in that juster. The jobs I have had has alway in the serving area. I guess that is why I feel that I am a natural submissive . I fit my body as one in all Real World and here at Xaara in SLT..
Yes I would do what my Dom, Master or Top with trust I would do for him as his bottom. Master Ballard has the right idea for allot of us who is truly into serving. He reads and talk with his partners (his girls) and by the way he cares for each one like playing with their bodies like his grand piano, I think of my body being a great playground with with slides, and so on............
If I was not collared sub, I would liked to become a community slave to Xaara. and work on my Angel Path at the same time and be part of Xaara. Then
[09:00] Aspen Diamond: and if only then a Master saw all I had to offer then yes to be collard. I agree with some of the comments about giving/receiving also as a sub. Even in our friendships here .I am a service bottom as I see myself.
Vanni, I do agree with you on the point that you made about "Service Bottoms" I know that there are times where I should be getting flogged or having my ass get beat to release my frustrations out of me so I can reset my emotions and my attitude. If your top wants you to be on top I would have to do it. Your top requesting is because it is a need that he needs filled also. It is a give and take relationship. Smiling.
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Aspen, you definitely made serveral good points there and are definitely on track for this discussion
[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: so we come to Brianne please
[09:02] Brianne: So, the way I'm understanding this, Service D/s is not as much about 'what' you do and 'how' you do it, it's 'that' you do it. That's the indirect source of pleasure. Sorta meta. Does that make sense?#
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, mostly. I think we should however differentiate "Service D/s" from "Service Top/Bottom."
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: D/s is based on some kind of relationship
[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Top/Bottom is more based on the kinds of actions taken
[09:04] Hunter: I always settled it down to both what you do and why you do it.
[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: But in that, as Master RB said, while he will happily do S/M stuff with his charges, His primary focus is the D/s connection.
[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: He "serves" them in that way, and still gets a thrill, as Master Ballard also pointed out.
[09:05] Ballard: I'm actually selfish that way.
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: And the Bottom might not get the biggest thrill from being beat on, but they do it happily for their Top or Dominant as they know the Dom/me gets off doing it, and feels good about it.
[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen what did you have to say to Sir Ballard?
[09:06] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: do the subs do all this for the extrinsic rewards of hearing, "good girl" "Good boy." "Well done." How much of it is intrinsic, self-motivating? I know, same old thing lol.
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: I think an S-type always feels happy with hearing that CC. Do any other subs have something to offer?
[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: but to what degree is it necessary, there are no intrinsic factors ?
[09:08] Brianne: being told I'm a good girl, feeling competent and useful, never goes out of style.
[09:09] Laila Raines: I personally do not serve simply to hear the good girl. I feel fulfilled knowing that my Dom is pleased and happy. That I have provided something to him that gives him joy.
[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: It goes back to exchange theory, CC. If a person serves and serves and never gets any reciprocation, they're not going to be very interested in serving that person very long
[09:09] Hunter: I have a praise kink. No doubt about it. Just hearing the praise and getting that smile can turn me from grumpy fucking big boy into a pile of subby puppy goo. I love it. I will do so much to get it, to feel the Dominants joy and feel like i did a good job and was a good boy. Its HIGH on my list of what brought to me submission and puppy play.
[09:09] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: so the S type is conditioned needing extrinsic always?
[09:09] Ballard: It is essential to reward with words, but also important to not over do it.
[09:10] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I can talk to you later about that Sir Ballard
[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: I think each person gets validated in their own way, CC.
[09:10] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: hearing " good girl" or clever girl " etc is always great. its like the cherry on top of being able to make that person happy in providing service to them
[09:10] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I agree Vanni
[09:11] Hunter: It's funny, that just talking about praise makes me happy. I feel excited and I'm smiling at just the thought.
[09:11] Brianne: yes, Rouge, the happiness of service comes first, then the praise is like fireworks
[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: So I think it's incumbant on the particular Dominant to find out *how* their charge needs to be validated and be sure they are doing it
[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Otherwise that sub will feel resentment
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: so now that I have no idea who said what and why....
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: let's go to Vivian's comment above!
[09:10] Vⅰνⅰaη Ąηη dє мσηтƒσят: I am not sure if I am a service bottom but I am definately a bottom. I am a chatty happy sub but I learning to be calm and just kneel. Allow my Master to think and trust his mind and thoughts. I think Sir Prim was taliking about cherishing. that is how I feel. I feel safe and cherished and guided. I have many things to learn and my Master takes the time to teach me. I can't say I have not been caged or spanked but I am submissive and always willing to learn to make my Master happy. I love being called baby girl and being told he is proud of me. Its the best feeling ever. I find I am not so worried about everything else and can just relax in his compassion and care and strict direction. Loyalty always!
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: I think what you said Vivian is very much part of the validation we are talking about
[09:13] Ballard: [09:11] Vanni Cannoli (Vannesh Cannoli): So I think it's incumbent on the particular Dominant to find out *how* their charge needs to be validated and be sure they are doing it - Agrees
[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And that the service sub feels a lot of validation from the service in and of itself, of offering themselves to a Dominant, or their Dominant, even if the actual BDSM acts aren't all that thrilling.
[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Master Ballard!
[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And the Dominant might not be all that thirlled about beating on an ass, but they do it to keep their charge happy and so they perform a service. That's what it's all about in this discussion.
[09:15] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni
Please forgive me Master Ballard. It was Brianne question. Brianne if you are a sub/slave you are a bottom then you are serving your Top, Dom, or Mistress. I am happier when I can receive from the Top. As I give serves to him or her then I full filed then need. But then are they fulling your needs also by serving.
I also love hearing that I am a good girl, claver girl, good pet as a nickname. The more good comments and praise I get the more I feel wanted and care for. I learn more by that then being yelled at. The correction iin this relationship it alway trust.
[09:15] Ballard: Aspen will have to remove a piece of clothing for each extra "C", agreed?
[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen.
[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Does anyone else have a comment before we break today?
[09:17] Ballard: Actually.
[09:18] Ballard: The very topic of service lies at the core of all we do, all we are.
[09:18] Brianne nods
[09:18] Hunter: I've already said everything I wanted. Now I'm just drooling over the thought of being called a good boy and getting lost in what kinds of kinky fuckery I could get up to in order to get the praise. Snickers.
[09:18] Ballard: A dominant that feels no obligation to his subs is really just an asshole, not a dominant
[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Master Ballard!
[09:19] Vⅰνⅰaη Ąηη dє мσηтƒσят: smiles at Sir Ballard's words and looks down
[09:19] Ballard: I once wrote a discussion about the differernce bvetween an asshole and a Dominant. It was meant to be funny, but it was a good serious talk
[09:19] Aspen Diamond: Blushing with m head down and them up with a smile.
[09:19] Odienne Kaimononiiku is offline.
[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for your comments today. Please be sure to throw a bit of money in the tip jar on the bar to keep the sim going! And those in the States, have a happy Memorial Day weekend next weekend, and we'll meet back in two weeks.
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