"Spirituality in BDSM": January 24, 2021

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's start up!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Welcome to Koffee Klatch where we brave the cold dawn for a better future where hands can slap bottoms.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: So I have a bit of exposition before I take comments.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Those of you that have been around Xaara for a while may remember that there were two Sunday morning chats

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: quite some time ago

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Bliss would host the **7AM** one (what a trooper!) which was a general discussion group

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: and then at 8AM was a "BDSM Spiritual Discussion Group"

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Hosted by a Xaara Dom whose name has escaped me

[08:15] Ballard: I remember his name, he is no longer around here.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: And then eventually taken over by Miss Bliss, who then suckered me...er....gave the the great gift of taking over this august group.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: In any case, while a weekly discussion on the spiritual aspects of BDSM would probably not fly, I'd like to have one where we revisit that topic.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Now I do not mean this in a particular framework of any particular religion.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: But acts that fit in the BDSM paradigm have been used for a long time in spiritual and esoteric frameworks.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: The Galli, the priests of the sacred pair Cybele and Attis in ancient Rome, were known to castrate themselves and run amok in the streets.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Catholic Saints such as Rudolf, Dominic and Theresa of Avila were masochists, subjecting themselves to intense pain to rid themselves of fleshly desire.  Monks throughout the Middle Ages would beat themselves with cords, wood and other implements to do the same.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Among Native Americans, the "Sun Dance" was a highly masochist type of ecstatic dance, in which the dancer would pierce his chest with hooks tied to a pole via ropes, and dance until they passed out.

[08:18] Daelenie McMillan: That's a rite of passage,

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: In the East, monks such Fakir among Muslims and the Sannyasi in India will self-flagellate into a meditative trance and lay on beds of nails, pass their hands through fire, and even stop eating and drinking for days on end.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Now of course, I am not trying to suggest that these are "BDSM" as we practice it, but we can see that many things we might connect to our lifestyle have been used for, as Dae said, rites of passage or some kind of connection to higher states and even beings.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: and just plain old sex is the closest we can get to physical union with another person, so it has a somewhat "mystical" connection

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So my question is, does this group see any reality in BDSM as a mystical/esoteric or spiritual practice between people?  Can a real bond be built between those that do it that transcends just "I like hitting people, give me your ass for ten minutes please."

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Nothing wrong with that of course

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: and make it 20

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Oh just as one more example, I went to a workshop where a woman was talking about how the chakras on the body correspond to various things that can be done in a BDSM setting.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: So to raise energy for her witch practices, she would flog her sub on the sacral chakra area to raise sexual energy.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: That's the kind of thing I'm getting at here.

[08:26] Ballard: I am going to go ahead and 'out' myself in a few ways.  First of all, as a sadist, my thing is that binding and beating a woman turns me on.  It's foreplay.  So it leads to sex.  Yes, my scenes always will end up with me taking the pussy.  It's my thing.  so in my case it is not the beating for the beatings sake.  It's a form of extreme foreplay.

Second, I'm not a Christian.  that statement has quite a negative impact in my community, and has been hard for my family and community to swallow.  The fact that I think deifying Jesus is a profound insult to his memory, and not an enhancement to it, makes me even l;ess popular.  I tend to not discuss that.

I do feel a strong spiritual connection with people here in SL.  There are times Rouge and I will just sit together, just BE together, and I draw a sense of calm, strength and energy from that.

#

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli grins, "Welcome to the club, Sir!"

[08:28] Ballard grins.  "which club?"  laughing

[08:28] Ballard: Sex, pagan...

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Well the second one for sure lol

[08:28] Squishy Paine is offline.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: and the third

[08:28] Roman Huntsman card carrying member.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli checks Sir Roman's "Heterodox Religion Card" to be sure it's up to date

[08:28] Roman Huntsman got it stamped this morning.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli cheers!

[08:29] Ballard: When you make a Jesus a God, you take away his faith and replace it with certainty.  what an  insult to a faithful person.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: But I agree Sir, I think it is quite possible to make a real connection to people here that is more than "Facebook chat" or Twitter or what have you

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, Twitter is hell, or at least purgatory

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: So to wind back, Sir, you find that the acts You do here in SL to have spiritual value, whether it's talking, or smacking, or sexxing, right?

[08:32] Ballard: I do.  And in fact I find the consent paradigm greatly enhances that feeling.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Great!  Thank You Sir!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: OK Brianne, you are up!

[08:32] Brianne: I think that the 'head spaces' that we can get into can be transcendent, or certainly feel that way, something more that just emotional.    I've experienced moments that are indescribably impactful and pleasant, a simultaneous feeling of arousal and contentment that are not in conflict but that amplify each other.  Something that extraordinary fits my definition of spiritual.

(And I am a Christian and it all seems to work together nicely..  It's complicated, but that personal journey is part of the faith too.) #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: To your second point, Brianne, I believe as a sociologist that every religion has value to the people that practice it.

[08:34] Roman Huntsman nods.

[08:34] Lisa Summerland: Well said Brianne :)

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: And as Emile Durkheim said, the religious community is where the norms and values of society are shown and empowered.  So however a person decides to do that in whatever community, they are building community.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: to the first point, I do believe that what we do does lead to various altered states, which can open up many things in the human psyche

[08:35] Roman Huntsman: I was wondering when you'd cart out Durkheim.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli grins

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: I can quote liberally from "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life," Sir, but I don't want to put everyone to sleep....

[08:36] Roman Huntsman: Maybe later.  I'm in to that.

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Oh!  Like in Secretary

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Bend me over a desk and have me read Durkheim's propositions of religious function while I get paddled

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: hmm

[08:37] Roman Huntsman: Sounds like a date.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[08:37] Ballard: [08:36:16] Roman Huntsman: Maybe later.  I'm in to that. - and yet another kink!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: The danger of makes jokes around Dom/mes.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: They get ideas...

[08:38] Daelenie McMillan: never give them ideas

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: and we go, oddly enough, to Sir Roman!  Please go ahead Sir.

[08:38] Roman Huntsman: Thank you Vanni.

[08:38] Roman Huntsman: Historically, yes we know that one the paths to other mental states, purification, grounding, and cleansing can certainly be pain. I don't necessarily think it has to be painful to reach those states either though.  I could teach a whole series on chakra, actually but I do think it does come down to projective and receptive energy and that these actions do raise those energetic levels.  A lot of us pagans know the term 'chained to the later' so I don't think that religion/spirituality is as far from Service as some would like to think.

[08:39] Roman Huntsman: As Ballard points out there are connections we form with each other here, that even the quiet we can feel the calm.  For my Husband and I, it was instant, though I resisted ... probably not very long come to think of it.  Yet, still there are strong links to people, even soft ones as we all care for one another.  I do think that spanking grounds out the root chakra each and every time and I believe that we carry these actions into our BDSM play, the Dominant projective of energy, the submissive receptive, but that will always create a feedback loop that then does become transcendent of a 'normal' mental state, Brianne hit the nail on the head there.

[08:39] Roman Huntsman: Actually,  I could probably go on about it all day so I'll just stop here Vanni, am sure there are other ideas we could listen to. #

[08:39] Roman Huntsman: +chained to the alter

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Sir, that would be a great workshop for here!

[08:40] Roman Huntsman: I'll get right on that, still waiting to hear about my last one.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Everything You said there is very much part of what I am getting at, that the energetics of BDSM in any way are a loop and real energies are raised.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli won't even start on Crowley's sex magick techniques here...

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I know anything about THAT of course...

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: *cough*

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, you are up please!

[08:42] Hunter: This is a topic that I really struggle to process and understand. I have been to a couple of WS in RL where they discussed BDSM as both spiritual and religious, comparing and breaking things down to some really basic shit.. I've had friends discuss it at length, here in SL and in RL... But it has always been out of reach for me. I will sit, confused, outside of the conversation. I just do not get it. Perhaps I need to practice acceptance more in order to process it... I have limited understanding of religion and spirituality, even with my cultural background including a heavy religious and spiritual backdrop I still keep on the edge in the shadows wondering what the fuck people are talking about. I think I may be missing those brain cells and instead traded them in for an advanced knowledge on ball stretching. But what I do understand is how pain and altered states of mind comes into it.. That it has a place in religion and spirituality throughout human history, and it does within the BDSM and kink community

[08:42] Hunter:  too. I just wish I could unravel it in my mind and figure out how I am entwined with it. I believe that one day I will and when that days comes and I will understand my submission and interest in BDSM more than I can imagine at this point in time. #

[08:42] Brianne hears a volcano of knowledge boiling somewhere near Vanni craving to erupt.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, one of my most profound spiritual experiences came in my 20s

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: I went to visit family in New England and we took a walk in the woods, and we came upon a small lake somewhere.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: And coming up over the hill to that lake, I felt *it*.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Just a wave of energy and intense connection to all

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: So my point is, you don't have to "know" to connect, you just have to experience

[08:45] Brianne: amen ;)

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: and I think that BDSM allows us in a way to have that experience

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: A way of course, there are many ways

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Roman and Sir Ballard had comments directed to Hunter, so Sir Roman first please

[08:46] Roman Huntsman: Actually there are studies around a certain neurological responses to religious or spiritual aspects. It's been theorized we might even have a gene that activates a chemical in our brain that predisposes us to seek out those connections.  You may not be far from wrong Hunter, but I don't think these things would exclude you at all.  A physical realm is just as potent as a spiritual one.  Many of us ascribe to an as above, so below belief that interconnects them, but you definitely may be on to something there.

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli looks for the Emerald Tablet I have around here somewhere...maybe a paperweight

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, the things we do in the mundane have an effect on the sublime, and vice-versa

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard, You had a comment for Hunter as well I believe?

[08:48] Ballard: I just want to say that we each may experience and verbalize our inner reactions and feelings differently.  Do not make too big a thing out of not having the spiritual concept.  The feelings we experience:  It simply is.  Over thinking will just make your head hurt.  #

[08:48] Roman Huntsman nods.

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: All space is here, all time is now, all floggers are heavenly.

[08:50] Storm Raiden blushes about that whole over thinking thing but he bent to kiss Mistress Lisa's heel with a soft kiss before turning and pressing a kiss to Master Roman's thigh before waving to A/all and running off

[08:50] Lisa Summerland: Smiles deeply and happily

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: My quote from the Buddha in the Bhaddakaratta Sutta makes that point, Sir Ballard:  ""Do not chase after the past or place expectations on the future. What is past is left behind. The future is as yet unreached. Whatever quality is present, you clearly see right there."

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Live in the moment!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: With a cane or something even better

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:52] Becky Summerland: point the arrow of time on 'present', be here, not there

[08:52] Ballard: I find that submissiveness and masochists both (because they are not always the same) tend to have a habit of self doubt and self questioning.  I advocate acceptance of ourselves.

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, you have two comments so go ahead

[08:52] Hunter: Just to add... I'm not sure how to describe how I feel other than this.. I want to understand, but I feel like there is a big fuck off wall between myself and that understanding. I have a feeling that I may have put that wall there subconsciously, or perhaps, it's simply a part of makes me 'me'. Haha. #

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Hunter, even the great religious leaders faced moments of self doubt and confusion

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: The Buddha took years to get to the point where he just meditated.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Jesus asked that the cup be taken from him before he was arrested

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: So you're in good company!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Easau you are up please!

[08:55] Easau Pronounced A-SA: i too, am of the blief, that there can be a connection with a partner here in SL well beyond the screen. Personally, its a mind thing, a feeling, i have sadly only had it happen once and that person turned out to be an arse and it made me sad but when sceneing, my headspace got so deep, that i, accidently, astraled to Him, and freaked Him out when i told Him what color shirt He was wearing. We are still human behind all of this, and we still do feel, and i think being in the lifestyle, even here in SL, that that connection is important and its very real.  As far as  the confines of a religious sense, i am a Christian, always have been,and thats my choice and it has been of some contention when i was into the lifestlye RL. my parents did not understand that i could still be Christian and do "those things" There were times i would feel guilty about it, but i realized in time it was them projecting their beliefs onto me. And i would eventually just nod and let them talk their talk. Not everyone in the lifestlye

[08:55] Easau Pronounced A-SA:  believes like i do, and i dont believe the way they do and thats fine! Its just how we play, what one person likes, another doesnt, and thats cool! But even the act of submission, is for many i am sure, myself included, a spiritual, thing. There is more i could probally say but my vocabulary is not as good as most here and my thoughts tend to be all over the place but thank Y/you for allow me to share # *returns to gently rubbing the doogos ears thoughtfully as she returns to listening*

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I very much believe that the acts of Dominance and Submission can have a very deep spiritual/esoteric connection

[08:56] Hunter makes a face that could only be described as gooey fucking heaven as his ears are rubbed.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Paul endlessly referred to himself as the "Slave of Christ" and exhorted Christians to be the same

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: And just the act of putting oneself under a powerful person, for whatever reason, opens a lot of doors for the submissive.  And I'd think the Dominant as well.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: We've talked about S/M acts as spiritual, but the very act of D/S has a lot of that quality as well.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Very well said, thank you Easau!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up please!

[08:59] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vannie,

I am a white light Energy healer and a Reiki Master. . I do reading with Angel Cards in Reality at Holistic Fairs.   I am very well connected with the positive and not negative light. I do use the vibs of the chakra's and there is Kundallini Raising. Kundalini is the two headed snake that does live in the base of our spine. As I was in my early twenty's I always feel hight. Not being on drugs, or alcohol. It was high on life. I always and still believe in my gut feelings.

I was at a dungeon party and one of the Masters had troubles with his back. I was doing energy healing that night and he did not believe that I could help him.  

I have always believe in a higher being. Now I do smell spirits and see white whips of smoke also.  I have had spirits play jokes on me also. I am known through our school district as the ghost buster.

I put the white light over me and mirrors on when I go to school and the kids can't under stand why they get that feeling back to them.

I hope everyone can understand me. Please forgive me for being long. I have been watching chat and trying to catch things that everyone is talking about.. I too believe in the DS or MS in this.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Nice, Aspen!

[09:00] Lisa Summerland: c

[09:00] Roman Huntsman: Balance in all things.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: One of my college teachers did kundalini, he said the first time he did it, he felt a blast of energy come from his root chakra through his arm, and he couldn't stop shaking his arm for 20 minutes.  His teacher said "well, now that you did that wrong, let's try to help you" lol

[09:02] Roman Huntsman laughs.

[09:02] Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Of course, pervert Vanni thought "I'd love to be able to move my arm for 20 minutes...I'd never leave the house"

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:03] Aspen Diamond: It is such a rush and I don't get that from anything else. Better then drugs.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Roman, you have a comment from Storm I believe?

[09:03] Roman Huntsman: I do.  From Storm:  for me it is a place of calm to relax and let someone else do what they like and it makes me stop thinking so much, worry so much -because once they are making all the choices my job is simple, to be pleasing, to be present in that moment and that moment only, to please them ....to absorb the pain or pleasure or both until they are satisfied and that's what i want in my heart, to be so much of a target for whatever they are dishing out that they are happily depleted on me

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Very nice!

[09:04] Roman Huntsman: He constantly surprises me, in great ways.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: The diamond is in the rock, right?

[09:04] Becky Summerland: Storm is an amazing person

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Well said thank You Sir!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen you have another comment, are you done or do you have another comment to make?

[09:08] Aspen Diamond: I was saying that we all have a special way with our to deal in the realm and it is nice to have all kinds of mind sets.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: And in all things, charity to each other.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: best way to live life

[09:09] Roman Huntsman: Stop making so much sense so early.

[09:09] Raks: I believe many of of us are simply looking for direction.  For many that direction come from a religion.  When we totally trust that religion or its respective God we give ourselves completely into it hands.  When amazing and miraculous things happen we ascribe it to God and a wave of spiritual awareness comes through us.  If we look for direction from another whom we trust completely we can give ourselves totally over to them and still receive waves of spiritual feelings with respect to them.  That this position is a human factor a need in fact for direction.

[09:09] Jade Huntress Darkfire Cutrere: an old froed of mine who was in the air force said to me once jokingly  making too much sense isnt allowed lol

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Even the Master/Pupil relationship has that built into it

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: and that's very D/s based

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You!

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Miss LIsa you are up please

[09:11] Lisa Summerland: Thank you Vanni……………….   I’ve been on the Phone and unable to follow the discussion after Brianne’s lovely comment…………. I’ll read it on your blog soon ♥      However, I wish to say also, that Brianne’s comment echo’s my feelings and beliefs. I am neither judgmental nor discriminating towards any for any beliefs………… I follow Love and acceptance of all and believe Love is the greatest of all things and believe that it is through Love that the Divine Powers that have created and sustain us all, in the moment by moment, desire us to truly live and experience our lives…….   I also am a Christian and it truly all seems to work together so nicely with so much of so many beliefs once you peel away the layers to what is the true core of beliefs……….. “Love and Light darlings, I love and care for you all ♥

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Miss as a quick follow up, do You feel that being in this lifestyle has in some way helped you with that path of Love?

[09:14] Lisa Summerland: Yes, Vanni, it has opened so many doors to new and many varieties of deeply emotional, physical, spiritual and mental experiences..........

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: \0/

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Fantastic, Miss!

[09:15] Becky Summerland: c

[09:15] Eve Terr is online.

[09:15] Lisa Summerland: Our Lifestyle is so very much a blessing to and for me

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: ok two more comments then we'll be done, thank You MIss LIsa

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Stevie go ahead and then we'll close with Becky

[09:17]  ڰۣ-ɞ Stevie ʚڰۣ-: Yes Vanni, I have not been following the last couple comments, I'm sorry, I'm taking notes and etc,..If my comment upsets anybody I apologize ahead of time. I am a very open person.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: An opinion should not offend anyone.  Trying to *push* that opinion on another, whatever the context, is problematic.

[09:21]  ڰۣ-ɞ Stevie ʚڰۣ-: Sorry, I lost it

[09:21] Ç î Ặ Я Ặ is online.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: You lost it?

[09:21]  ڰۣ-ɞ Stevie ʚڰۣ-: lol, I wrote it on a nc and then pasted it ..

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: oh no!

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: ugh sorry Stevie!

[09:22] Hunter slurps up his drool and looks deeply offended.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: let's go to Becky and maybe you can write a quick summary of your idea

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Becky

[09:22] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie...

[09:22] Becky Summerland: I simply wanted to add that finding the right person to share your life is a deeply spiritual experience. My Mistress, as my partner, guide and mentor has influenced me in so many ways. I do look up to her as she is wise, has been patient and contributed to build a deep trust between us.

She knows things I don't even suspect. When she talks, I see the light, I see where I could be better. She is an inspiration to me as she's shown me how much she cares for me, and mostly, how much I have worth and I can be an enhancer in her life. As much as she enhances mine. #

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: That's beautiful Becky!

[09:23] Brianne: yay becky!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: And I definitely think a spiritual connection that transcends the mundane

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: I'd like to close this discussion with a quote from St. Theresa of Avila.

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Here she is talking about her Master, Christ, but this is a powerful statement of submission that I think any submissive can connect to and any Dominant can want to hear in some way

[09:25] San: Hi all, I am new here and I wanna say that I am so amazed by your conversation♥

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: O my Lord, what a great comfort it is to me that Thou didst not entrust the fulfilment of Thy will to one so wretched as I! Blessed be Thou for ever and let all things praise Thee. May Thy name be for ever glorified. I should indeed have had to be good, Lord, if the fulfilment or non-fulfilment of Thy will [in Heaven and on earth] were in my hands.

But as it is, though my will is not yet free from self-interest, I give it to Thee freely. For I have proved, by long experience, how much I gain by leaving it freely in Thy hands. O friends, what a great gain is this – and how much we lose through not fulfilling our promises to the Lord in the Paternoster, and giving Him what we offer Him!

[09:26] Ballard: When Rouge submitted to me she swore to be ever loyal with hand, mouth and thought.

[09:27] Aoisle: TL:DR "I still struggle with self-interest but by giving my will to you it actually is in my self-interest to do so"

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for coming today, please drop some love in our tip jar on the bar to keep our happy kinky home going!

[09:27] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ- giggles....I'll make sure I stick some treats in my pocket for Hunter next discussion!

[09:27] Roman Huntsman: Interesting thoughts from a Saint.  Thank you Vanni.

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: and remember next Sunday, the 31st, at 1PM is our Seraph ceremony

[09:28] Vanni Cannoli: the biggest thing we do round these here parts

[09:28] Brianne: You all did it again!  You amazed me with your wisdom!  Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!