"Freedom in BDSM": January 17, 2021

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch, where we sail the sea of coffee and discuss naughty topics!

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2020.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: So today, as we in the USA honor Dr. Martin Luther King, it got me to thinking about our lifestyle

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We use terms like "Master, Mistress, Slave"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: phrases like "Completely owned by...."

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: And yet we describe our lifestyle as very freeing.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: As an example, I have talked about my friend that is a slave to her Master in RL, but she runs a Starbucks

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: And she says when she gets home from work, it is very *freeing* to her to just let go and let Master make all the decisions

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: As it takes energy to be a manager and she feels drained

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So, the question is, do Y/you feel this -- how has being in this lifestyle make Y/you feel "free".  This could be on either side of the D/s coin

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Or even free to do things that "vanilla" society would look down its nose

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Are we really "Free" or are we making more of this lifestyle than we think?

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: What are opinions on this?

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Before I get to Becky, one other example came to mind

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: from the Dominant side

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: A former Mistress of mine, many years ago, said that in getting into BDSM, she realized how much she liked being "the Boss" and it freed her from past relationships where she had tried to be the "nice, caring girl" to getting what she wanted in life

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So this can obviously work both ways!

[08:17] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: C

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Becky, we'll start with you!

[08:17] Becky Summerland: briefly, I don't think we are more free than anyone else in society... that feeling of freedom may simply come from allowing ourselves to live as we wish to live, 'free' of some of the limits of society. #

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So it's more of a socio-intellectual "freedom" than an actual freedom, Becky?  A change of perspective?

[08:19] Becky Summerland: mmmm.... it's more, what if our wish is to be owned and live as a slave and so far, all we've done is live according tot he principles of our upbringing? How freeing does it feel to actually shed those limits and move on, living the life we want, without looking to fit into a mold?

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: I like that!

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Very well said, merci, cherie!

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Becky, we move to Sir Ballard please!

[08:21] Ballard: The first woman I owned in SL was, in RL a very intelligent, strong, executive level worker and civil rights minded black woman from California.  We discussed the issue of slavery.  To her there is no kinship between the cruel Involuntary, economic and sexually exploitive slavery of the old European world (which included the Americas) and the consensual surrender of power that we explore today.  In my case it frees me from my oppressive society's current culture of shaming men for feeling like men.  I can be myself here, and while (as many of you are very aware) I am cautious of consent,  I can be the dominant man openly here.  That is freeing.  #

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: From the Culture of Shaming to the Culture of Caning, Sir? ;)

[08:22] Ballard: Oh I like that!

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli grins

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I have liked about being in the BDSM community in both First and Second Lives is that traditional gender roles are really not there.  All form of gender expression is allowed, what being a "man" or a "woman" is, is really open to personal expression.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: So one guy might express masculinity as a leather biker guy, and another as a very femme acting male, and same for women, and trans people.

[08:24] Ballard: Yes, very much so

[08:24] Ballard: "Be yourself"

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir, very well said!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Lyall, please!

[08:25]  ŁγĄŁŁ: Those of us that do this lifestyle, do not judge each other in the same was the vanilla world judges and by that alone it makes us freeer, Your kinks ok , mines ok. Not the you need to do it this way, love this way, react this way of vanilla life.#

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Although just the last couple weeks we did talk about how some people in the online BDSM world like saying "UR doing it Wrng"

[08:26] Now playing: Mumford & Sons - Snake Eyes

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I tend to find that a lot more in online than First Life worlds

[08:27]  ŁγĄŁŁ: thats because so many online its a game , rl we live it

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: One guy in my RL community was making some nasty remarks in our "break room" about some play and got dressed down for it.  He eventually left in a huff as we were too "intolerant" for him

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: I mean....the idiocy he displayed was off the chart lol

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir Lyall, thanks!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please

[08:28] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: For me, being someone's submissive is totally liberating. I know my place, Mistress Zati knows her's, she makes the decisions and I work on the things that make our very loving relationship work. We are devoted to each other and know our roles. During sex, I don't have to make decisions of what position or who is doing what to whom, I'm free to do what  I like and am good at, conjuring up for her the most beautiful and poetic emotes I can to please her, and in turn, please me. I get a feeling of total liberation from having her using me as  her toy, her sex object, her instrument of pleasure and I'm satisfied when she is.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent, this is exactly the heart of what I am looking for!

[08:29] Brianne: hear hear!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway....let's continue....thank you CC that was spot on!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Abs you are up please

[08:34] Abriel Stargazer: Like CC, submitting is very freeing to me.  I am the primary bread winner in my house hold and am also in charge of making sure the bills get paid, among other things since my RL's seizure condition messes with his head and he has trouble remembering stuff, plus my RL job places a lot of demands on me. I'm pretty much always having to be in control, in charge, and it's a lot of pressure and a lot to take on. So it is very, very much a relief to let Someone Else take teh reins, if only for a little bit. In fact if I don't serve or submit to Someone in awhile I get edgy, anxious, and irritable (like now...yes it's been awhile). I like not having to think, not having to make decisions, just feel.

#

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: very much like my friend, Abs, she says the same thing

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: When one is submissive, it takes energy to be very proactive in the social world

[08:36] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I'm so glad you find time for yourself in sl Abs

[08:36] Abriel Stargazer: boy howdy does it ever

[

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Very good comment Abs, thanks!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne you are up please!

[08:37] Brianne: It's cliche', I know, to say that submission brings new freedom but the structure of D/s takes some guesswork out of a relationship, freeing me to pursue more important matters and express myself more deeply within this safe envelope without a lot of thinking, just doing (much like what CC and Abs said).  Plus, letting someone else 'write my life story' (with my help) offers surprises that I might not conjure up myself, breaking me out of my same old fantasy rut.  That's a kind of freedom for sure.

[08:38] Brianne: #

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: That sort of is the point of submission, I'd think?  Letting another direct the story

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: some subs and slaves like to use the analogy of the canvas -- they are the canvas to be drawn on by the Dominant

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: With my friend, when she and her Master go out to dinner (when we were going out to dinner...) .. she wasn't even allowed to touch a menu.  He would order for her.  Always what she liked, but it got down to that level.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Brianne, well said, great comment!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Sultry , you are up

[08:41] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: So many great comments! You know, I must admit that I knew nothing about the "BDSM lifestyle" prior to SL, and definitely nothing about it in RL, and that was just only about 4 years ago.  Society has always pushed women are to be independent and equal to men.  I feel there is some truth to that, however, it was not what I felt was the only way I wanted to be.  I guess I knew all along that I was submissive and that was the most freeing part for me.  And learning that being submissive does not mean that it takes away my opinion, or anything like that either.  It's just a natural way for me to be.  I have had so many friends unfriend me because they simply don't understand what that means.  I thrive on the dominance, and it is now a need and desire for me.#

[08:41] Vanilla Meili is online.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Well as a sociologist, I can tell you that this binary, either/or perspective that a lot of people have, is pretty much rubbish.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: A person can be strong and independent in social life, and a total sex/pain slut in other contexts.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Sultry :)

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: zahar, you are up please

[08:45] zahar: This discussion tugs at my heart because it is so much a part of me and my submission.  Outsiders don't understand. Sultry,

[08:45] zahar: Consuela and Abriel expressed so eloquently what I wanted to say.  Allowing one to go inside and explore sides they never knew. it's self discovery. Also a calmness, smoothing of the rough edges knowing someone you trust freely has your best interest at heart.#

[08:46] Becky Summerland: ♥

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: That was a very good comment, zahar, well said!

[08:48] Ballard winks to Zahar

[08:48] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: Thanks Vanni

as ive mentioned before, I am owned in real life and have been for a good number of years now. to me, being in His collar is so liberating. for when was lost and no owner, I felt numb, no purpose, nor had any guidance. yet soon as that steel went about my neck, the weight was lifted off my shoulders. I never hide the fact im owned, the collar is worn 24/7 even at work, when had a job.

to me, being in bondage.. and im not on about chains/ropes etc, as much as those are fun as hell.. but to be a slave, it lets me be the real me. plus being able to surrender and have things decided for me, or at the very least heavily guided makes life all the more simpler.

even here in sl, im owned by the best Master a girl could wish for, and even here, I trust Him 100% to do what is not only going to please Him in how He treats what is His.. but also whats best for me as well.

others might disagree, but for me.. a slaves life is the best life! #

[08:49] Ballard gives Rouge a cookie.  "good girl"

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: I do not think many will disagree with your views here, Rouge :)

[08:49] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: ♥

[08:49] Brianne: that's practically a manifesto

[08:49] Abriel Stargazer: mmhmmm

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: The Submissive Manifesto:  "There is a spectre rising over the world, the spectre of submission."

[08:50] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα takes hte cookie and smiles " thank You my Master " then to Vanni. " for myself.. to feel safe enough, that I can open up and fully surrender to someing and give them that trust is hard. im just thankful I have been blessed with that in both realms.

[08:52] Brianne: "subs of the world unite!  you only have your chains to ... gain?"

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli cheers!

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Hey, no cane, no pain, no gain

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Ok thank you Rouge!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: excellent comment!

[08:56] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: thank you again Vanni

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Gem!

[08:57] Gem: I'd just like to say that had i not decided to embrace submission then i wouldn't have met so many wonderful people and found so many friends who actually understand me

[08:57] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I could take this in an existential direction.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Gem!

[[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I mean seriously, once you get in the lifestyle, going back is like returning to Plato's dark cave

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Why would one want to do that?

[08:58] Ballard: uh oh.  CC is getting philosophical.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Gem!

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: CC do you have a philosophical comment to make?  Why don't you Startre up with that?

[09:01] Ballard: ouch

[09:01] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: To take this in an existential direction, we are all going to die, death is the dominant reality in our universe. When we face it and submit to it, we are freed from all the crap in our life that we thought was so important. It frees us to see what really IS important, who are the important people in our lives, what really are our real priorities. Submitting to death, the ultimate dominant, that frees us all. Including those identifying as Dominiants.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Speak for yourself there

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: ;)

[09:02] Brianne: WOW CC!

[09:02] harry: well said CC

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Well I did tell her to "S(t)artre" us up

[09:03] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: it's good philosophy when you're talking to someone who has faced critical life saving surgery in a hospital

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Well to be Sartre like ... as death is pretty much the essential act we all face, we make our lives ourselves, and we are responsible for them.  and so what we are is ours to choose -- that is the freedom existentialism posits.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that CC!

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Pure, you have a comment to make?

[09:05] Pure: With my Master RL, I had to a certain point a more fulfilling relationship than many "traditional" couples that I know. More discussions, less anxiety ... for me. A relationship made of respect, sharing and trust. I always felt free to be myself. While things were different for Master. His social position, the pressure from his peers ... I have often thought that it was I who had the "good role". We forget often we are more free than our Dom

[09:06] Brianne: I wonder what Dominants think of what Pure said.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Pure, well said!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: we have two more comments so let's get to those to end our discussion

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard you are up again please

[09:08] Ballard: I would add to this talk that in my case, it has been the UTTER banishment of any idea of monogamy that has been  incredibly freeing.  All four of use are free to explore, to play, to be ourselves.  We do not all share the exact same kinks, but we can get out there and explore our needs and wants,.  This is because the doors and windows are open.  Monogamy and jealousy will never darken my doorstep again.  #

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: "We all belong to each other."  Oh wait, that's Brave New World

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sir Ballard!

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Aspen, you have the final comment for today!

[09:16] Aspen Diamond: Please forgive me for being so late,  Death is a two way street. Death in your heart of someone refused you and losing someone very dear to you. Master Ballard has a point about there is jealousy and Drama nd I have been a target of that in my SL life.  We will have these people around us but need to choose wisely. Fetlfe there is allot of want-a-bees Dom but it is also people who you trust in real at munches Lady Consuela.

[09:17] Abriel Stargazer: I've been there too Aspen...the target of jealousy and drama and gaslighting. it's not fun.

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Kira did you want to say your comment as you got kicked out by your internet?

[09:20] Kira Ragged: so a different perspective here maybe

[09:20] Kira Ragged: so I can only speak to this right now from my experience as a Domme to male submissives, but often what I see from them is seeking a sort of freedom from the responsibility for doing the things that they like. It's as though they need "permission" from me to engage in something that they desperately want but can't reconcile the fact that they want that thing with who they see themselves as. So, my being in control means that .. it's ok.. they didn't do it because they wanted to.. they did it because I wanted them to... I'm giving them the freedom from holding themselves responsible for what they love, and hate that they love.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: I do think there is a psychological difference between male and female submissives...not that one is "better" than the other, just the approach

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: that might be worth a talk if we can get enough male subbies here.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Ok as we are very late, the official munch is over, but if Sir Ballard and Aspen want to get their comments out, please go ahead.

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you A/all for coming today, please give to the sim to keep our happy kinky home going!

[09:23] Ballard: I am strictly hetero sexual, so it may surprise many of you to know that I have owned male submissives, and have mentored others over time.  A sub is a sub, I respect the needs in all of us, regardless of gender or orientation.  I see myself in an important role with any submissive as a mentor, a trainer perhaps, and even a friend.  A calm voice to still fear and self esteem issues.  Scenes are not the only part of what we do here.  #

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Sir!

[09:23] Brianne: one common thread , it seems:  decisions are a burden, likely submissive.  decisions are a joy, likely Dominant.

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: BDSM does not have to equal sex after all.  the Apostle Paul called himself the "Slave of Christ" but that was pretty G-rated after all.

[09:24] Abriel Stargazer: yes, well said. I know I myself see sex as an unncessary bonus...nice when it happens but I don't absolutely need it

[09:24] Aspen Diamond: It is the giving up the control to another. It is the freedom you have to give yourself to let go of the lead. Master Ballard hit the point on the head of self-esteem.

[09:24]  ŁγĄŁŁ: Agrees with Ballard, but even in rl bdsm male subs are trapped in the vanilla prospective, of what is correct behavior

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for coming!