"Dealing with Perceived Abuse": January 10, 2021

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: ok before we start, a cool announcement

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: I have created a blog for our discussions

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: so I will put the weekly transcript of the chat there

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: I am also working on a second one that will archive the past ones:  https://xaarakoffeeklatcharchive.blogspot.com/

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Well it's easier this way, so if someone asks me "do you have week's discussion" I can just point them to the blog

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's go ahead and start

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Welcome to our second Klatch of the year

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Also if we could please keep extraneous chatter to the minimum during the talk, it would helpful, thank Y/you!

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: (and makes editing the blog transcript easier! :P)

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So last week our discussion was on how we deal with people that say "Ur doing it wrng", and don't get or as Heinlein said, "grok" our way of doing our own BDSM style.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: This week I'd like to tackle the sort of flipped side of that -- if we really *do* see abusive behavior, are we allowed to intervene?

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Now at a RL club or dungeon, there are "Dungeon Monitors" walking around that keep an eye on things

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And if they see something that breaks the rules of the club, they have the right to stop the scene, and even eject the person(s) involved if they get too mouthy about their "whatever" being stopped

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: but there, it's a club with S/M scenes going that could do real harm to a person, or get us all arrested

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Here in SL, the world is different, and what can "harm" a person is less precise

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So my questions are twofold today:

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: 1) If we really do see something here at Xaara that in our mind constitutes "abuse", do we have the right to say something?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: and 2) How would we approach that?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Or is it just "none of our biz" unless it's breaking an obvious sim rule

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: But as a community, can we make that our biz?

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: I'd love to hear Y/your ideas on this

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: And I'd like to hear both our Dominants and our submissives and guests on this!  I know as subs our options are "get a dominant" but we still have to make a call on that.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Roman you are up first!

[08:24] Roman Huntsman: We absolutely should as fellow human beings reach out to speak to someone who feel like may be experiencing abuse.  If not to seek an understanding of the interpretation of what you are seeing.  What can look like abuse from the outside may actually be an agreed upon dynamic.  One person's abuse might be another's kink in some way.  However, I do think that people who are being abused have a hard to recognizing that from within, so continual education of 'what is abuse' and 'what are the signs of abuse' should be an educational goal of most communities.  You cannot always change a person's mind or help them see it, but you can be a friend, and keep lines of communication open to make sure they know they do have a safe harbor somewhere.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Sir!

[08:25] Roman Huntsman thinks about it for a bit then concedes the floor, "Thank you Vanni." #

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, that is an issue...what looks "abusive" to some is a real thrill and part of the kink to the people involved.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Well, well said, thank You!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Ballard next, please!

[08:29] Ballard: Perhaps the most painful sort of abuse I have seen in SL might be termed "string along ghosting".  This is where a dominant collars a sub, and after a while they disappear.  Then they reappear with some lame ass story, and string the sub a long for another period of solitude.  Of course the sub is restricted.  This is, I believe a fetish for the dominant doing this.  They get a thrill out of the pain they cause emotionally, and of course they have the viscous thrill of seeing how long they can make the other person suffer.  And suffer they do.  Because they want to be owned,  loved, and cherished.  The dominant will often say the very sweetest words to keep their victim entrapped in the web.

I have seen this many times, and in almost every case trying to intervene simply makes the submissive get defensive and angry, because they have an almost religious devotion to the turd that is tormenting them.  It is a delusional false hope, like being addicted to a harsh drug.  Often they just leave, and you don't see

[08:29] Ballard:  them again.  BUT!  A few months later here comes that dominant  looking for another one to do this to.  #

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Sir!  This is not just a problem in BDSM circles, it happens in vanilla too.

[08:30] Ballard: Oh yes.  Here I apply it to SL

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: And as a person that has studied abusive behavior academically and deal with it in FL as an instructor, I have seen a LOT of this.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: It is in my opinion a sociopathic behavior

[08:31] Abriel Stargazer has also seen way too much of that

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: the abuser gets off knowing their mark is desperate and waiting, and comes back just long enough to keep them strung along

[08:31] Ballard: And HOW can you slap the sub and make them see the light?

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Well, that's the just problem, Sir.  They need what AA calls a "moment of clarity"

[08:32] Ballard: yes

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Abs as you have a c to Sir Ballard you'll be moved up

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And some people never attain that moment of clarity, sadly.

[08:33] Abriel Stargazer: My answer is that you can't, Sir. If you as a Dominant try to tell a sub that her Dom is being horrible by abandoning them and stringing them along with that they're just going to think you're trying to poach them. I know because I’ve been there. #

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly, Abs

[08:34] Ballard: if they do have the moment of clarity, it comes with a crushing loss of self esteem.  And yes Abs, exactly

[08:34] Ballard: Cuz trust me I have tried!

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed with that also, Sir. :/

[08:35] Lisa Summerland: Ballard, I am not a violent woman, but reading of the type of Individual you just described as a "string along ghoster" incites me and brings my blood to a boil and so does make me want to beat abusers like that so severely.....

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: *hugs* Miss Lisa

[08:35] Ballard: You go ahead, Lisa.  Whack his pee pee!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: lol

[08:35] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:35] Abriel Stargazer: lol

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir Ballard and Abs

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Wise words

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Brianne who has a question

[08:36] Brianne: Is it a good baseline policy to, as a first step, ask the "victim" in IM if they've consented?  And Sir Ballard has raised an issue that negates the utility of this, which makes me wonder even more deeply about the proper course of action.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Meaning, if they are being abused, they'd just say "everything is fine" anyway, right?

[08:37] Brianne: yes.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Again, the same problem exists in First Life, but here we have just text -- no tone, no affect that could say otherwise

[08:38] Brianne: but is it worth trying?  or futile?

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Good question!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: I've told this story before but let me quickly repeat it as it's topical

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: A bunch of years ago I found a squatter on my land, he had put up a house and a barn

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: in the barn he had four women "chained" there

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: And I found one of them active who told me that he would log on at a certain time, take one of them in the house, fuck them ragged, and then chain them back in the barn

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: they weren't allowed to leave or IM anyone

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: I told them they were being abused, but they LOVED Master Barnyard

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: And when I said that I had to return everything, but they could stay with me in my area and get away from him, they flat refused

[08:40] Abriel Stargazer almost snorts her orange juice

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Saying how well they were being treated by Master Barnyard

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: (That wasn't his name, btw)

[08:41] Brianne: did you determine if they really were, or misguided?

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: oh as a coda, after I returned everything he IMed me, said what a little bitch I was, and that I should go in the barn and learn how to be a proper submissive

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I told him to fuck off in several ways

[08:41] Kira Ragged: hear hear Vanni

[08:41] Roman Huntsman: Several languages.

[08:42] Becky Summerland: yep lol

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: I still don't know Brianne

[08:42] Kira Ragged: and some sign language for the impaired too i hope..

[08:42] Abriel Stargazer: he was squatting though, wasn't he? so, um, was it really shocking to him that you returned his stuff?

[08:42] Roman Huntsman: At least one obscene gesture.

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: they seemed happy, but an abused person will come across like that as they are experienced PTSD and are scared

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: As Sir Ballard pointed out

[08:42] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα knows that all too well

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Abs he told me he had every right to be there as a "Master" lol

[08:43] Abriel Stargazer: Of course he did

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: I have to cut at 9 btw, so I can get back to the barn...I mean watch Lifetime

[08:43] Becky Summerland: its the natural order of things, jeez

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's move on!

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Becky you are up please

[08:44] Becky Summerland: Thank you ma chère Vanni... In my opinion, its never our business, but shooting a quick IM to someone we perceive as maybe in trouble is never a bad thing, just a check "you okay love?" you never know, they maybe in trouble and ready to share, or it may just show them someone cares and they could reach out to you later in life. Show care, but don't try to live their life for them.#

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Becky

[08:45] Brianne: I think that helps answer me.  It's not a cure-all, but showing concern could be the right thing at the right time.

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Becky!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to will please

[08:46] Brianne smiles gratefully to Becky

[08:46] Becky Summerland: being human is often the solution, no one has the answer to every situation, except, 42 of course

[08:49] will: Thank you Miss Cannoli! My comment was of course from the submissive point of view. I think as a house slave, it is imperative to have protocols set up for dealing with these situations beyond just get a Dominant. I know when fellow slaves are being abused, and I’m going to step in right away, but how am I to know with outsiders? I am a take action type, but I also don’t want to overstep my bounds

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I assume at Substratum there are rules such as here, so you mean that if you see those specific rules broken, will?

[08:50] will: Yes. I mean the rules in place cant cover every type of abusive behavior

[08:51] Roman Huntsman: "Will is our hero type," strokes the back of his neck fondly.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Well done, Will!

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: ok as we have a line of people waiting we will move on, but thank you for that Will!

[08:52] will smiling proudly " It helps that IM a pushy loud mouth too"

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Kirin please!

[08:53] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: Thank you. Well most of you took the words out of my mouth already. So I'll just soundly agree with what Ballard, Lisa Beck and will have spoken already. So well said.

[08:54] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: and what you said too Vanni. Had a similar experience but that is a long story for a later time since we are running out of time.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: We will move on

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Kira, you are up please

[08:59] Kira Ragged: I absolutely think that something should be said, however given the difficulties already mentioned in whether the abused can even see that they are being abused.. and I say this as a survivor of rl abuse as well.. I went to my rl ex-husband’s second wedding specifically to say to his bride as soon as his back was turned "are you ok? do you need help?" And that's the thing, I think all you can do is be a support system, speak up.. let the possibly abused know that you see them, that you're there for them if something's wrong, and be prepared to help if they decide for themselves they need it. That said, i think in addition to support for those already abused, it helps a lot for submissives in general to be exposed to education and support that lets us know that submissive doesn't mean no boundaries or limits and that any Dominant that would tell you that standing up for what is right for you is "topping from the bottom" or that you're not a real submissive is a bad Dominant.. I was lucky enough to get my hands

[08:59] Kira Ragged:  on some reading material about what are red flags that someone is more likely abusive than Dominant early on and that helped me a ton in vetting people

[09:00] Kira Ragged: I have literally had both of those things said to me by would be Dominants, they lasted about 3 seconds

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: We have two workshops we do here at Xaara -- one on "red flags" and then I do a second one on avoiding abusive relationships.

[09:01] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: when is the latter one held next Vanni?

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: When we start the Angel program again

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: so sometimes in Feb or March, depending on the schedule

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Kira, yes well said!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Storm you are next please

[09:02] Storm Raiden: a lot of the problem, for me at least in cases of being abused, i know if i get in a personal collar i will start fawning hard core and so i have to be very very careful of those (and am);  but i had to learn the hard way, and in my heart being loyal was important to me and so someone asked how do you make someone see they're being abused -you can't, or we secretly or overtly already know but we're hoping it gets better ... like waiting for a train that never comes; because surely it's just over the horizon any minute.  it'll get better next week, next month, when x happens, when ... forever and forever, amen.  the best way i think is to just be there for someone until they get that moment of clarity and they have to want to have help, have to want to do the work from the inside on how to set boundaries for themselves

[09:03] Lisa Summerland: So true Storm, personal Boundaries are difficult issues to determine for many

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: As Sir Ballard and others have pointed out, abusive behaviors are not constant, they come in waves.  We talk about the "Cycle of Violence" that goes 1) Tension Building, 2) Acute Abuse 3) Honeymoon

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: So the abused person sees lots of "good times" and even hears "I'm sorry it won't happen again" ... until it does.

[09:04] Becky Summerland: sadly, some abusers know very well the cycle of violence and exploits it to be seen as white knights

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[09:04] Kitten stands and hands a note to mr Huntsman before slipping off quietly

[09:05] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: its not so easy.. the longer it goes on.. the harder it is to speak out and do something about it. and I speak from rl experience here of 15 yrs.. and even after got away.. its been 23

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Rouge!

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: And goes back to what Brianne asked and said might be futile...you'll get a "everything is fine" response

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: when you know it isn't, but what can you do?

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Unless that moment of clarity hits

[09:07] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: only these past few months, I finally got the courage to go to the cops about it all. so now have to wait and see if it goes to court

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Storm, well said!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: *hugs* Rouge

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: This might be late to the discussion but I might also add as to intervening, when you do so without the subs permission and then tell her what she needs to do, you are just replacing one abusive partner with another person controlling his/her life, no matter how well intentioned.  Sorry if someone has already said this. As to it happening again, when abuse happens, statistically up to 80% chance it'll happen again. What I have told victims when I worked for a safe house.

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I told a story last week of my experience with a dominant on another sim, how he asked to do voice, so I did, then he forcefully took control. What started out as mild flirting turned into him ordering me give him complete control and making me promise to serve him in the future. I had to pull myself together and get him to stop. I could have lost myself in that encounter, to someone I'd just met!

Since then, I've seen this dom here in Xaara. I chose to talk to him first to explain what and why was wrong with our encounter and why it could get him ejected and banned from Xaara if he was caught taking control without consent with another sub here. He said he was harmless and would obey the rules of Xaara and Miss Nes, when I talked to her about him says he's been taking dom classes  her but she'd keep an eyes on him. My only residual problem is that he wouldn't acknowledge that it's not good practice to put someone into a submissive head space without prior negotiation and consent, on any sim in sl. Will he

[09:08] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell:  take a Xaara sub off sim and do the same thing?  Should I be warning other Xaara subs about him? He's here all the time now, dancing and sitting with subs. Should I IM them and warn them or trust that he'll behave himself? Are my unjustly accusing him of something that’s as much my responsibility? Now that I know him, I don't think he'd maliciously hurt a Xaara sub but I just felt it was wrong to put me in a position to back out a head space I didn't agree to ahead of time.

[09:09] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Sorry for the length

[09:11] Abriel Stargazer: Unfortunately there isn't anything you can do about it CC. Any sub you IM to try to warn is going to see you as a jealous ex who just can't stand to see him with another sub, and he can easily paint you warning everyone as you slandering him and he can get you in trouble.  So...it sucks but all you can do is confide in a few people so they can keep an eye on things and be supportive if he ;pulls the same stuff on another sub #

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I think informing the Dominants is the best bet there, CC.

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: We aren't supposed to be policing things ourselves

[09:12] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I informed Miss Nej

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Right, which was your best bet there IMO

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: and it is a tough call.  A lot of people that are abusers don't see themselves as "an abuser," in fact all but the most sociopathic just see themselves as quite normal

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Much how rapists don't self-identify as "rapist" in all but the most insidiously sociopathic and demented

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: But a lot of people are just ...well...ignorant...of how to do things right.  That's why we push education here

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: So very good points CC, thanks!

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: ok we go to Sir Roman to finish up, who has His own comment and then will read Kitten's who had to leave

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: You have the floor Sir

[09:16] Roman Huntsman opens the note, "I'll read Kitten's first if you don't mind."

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Of course!

[09:16] Roman Huntsman: From Kitten: i think i would find it very hard to ignore abusive behavior but i do agree that what i might see as abusive is someone else's kink so it pays to be careful so as not to offend. So i think if i saw something i would message the person affected to see if they were fine but also try to get to know them better so i could understand better whether it is something where i should be advising them to think about what was happening or speaking to someone else about it. But i do know how easy it is to get trapped in a relationship that could be termed abusive, not of course that i am now  ...i was locked up and then abandoned for 2 months with various excuses being offered to why the domme wasn't there

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Yep...that's a familiar story sadly :/

[09:17] Roman Huntsman: It is, unfortunately, a Dom/me should know their limits on time invested.

[09:17] Roman Huntsman: As for mine....

[09:17] Roman Huntsman: Absolutely it's worth trying [to reach out to someone you are concerned for.]  It's hard to watch someone you love go down that path, but even as strangers we're bound to each other in this life to look out for each other.  They may already kind of know, and are hoping for a change, which will be the case more often than not.  They may not know.  They may deny it to your face either way, but I do feel like we're absolutely bound to try.  At least once, and if that doesn't work, leave resources with them so they might reach out someday and seek a solution.  It may not be our business to get heavily invested in someone else's life choices, but it is our business as fellow human beings to check on someone, offer guideposts, and hope for the best.  ----  Also Abriel is right in regards to your comment's CC but as to that, people do make mistakes, we're all learning, all on the journey of learning always.  A lot can be said by a person's character by how they handle those mistakes - with grace and humility is

[09:17] Roman Huntsman:  ideal, of course. Being watchful of that is just as important.  #

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: All so well said, Sir!

[09:19] Roman Huntsman: Thank you, Vanni.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Sometimes it's just the "Are you OK?" that gives that person the moment of clarity they need...they are waiting for that one person to reach out

[09:19] Becky Summerland: so true

[09:20] Brianne: That is the biggest 'take-away' I get form today's discussion.

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: I've had that happen to me several times as an instructor....students come to my office, I ask if they're ok, and then I have to almost carry them to the heath office in tears

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Because they just need that one person to reach out

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for all that Sir.

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for this important and fabulous discussion!  I will edit and put the transcript up on the blog and announce when it is ready.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: And please remember to drop some linden love in the tip jar on the bar to keep our smexy home going

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: And to quote a great movie..."Be excellent to each other...and party on, dudes!"