"D/s and Leadership:" January 31, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ok it's time to start up!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!  Where we discuss all things rare and exquisite and look damn good doing it!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So today is a special day here in Xaara, it is graduation day, when those of us that have been studying to aspire to Seraph are graduated, and our very own Sir Ballard, along with Sir Garritt, will be elevated to Master Adept!

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: So while ruminating on this concept, it got me thinking about community and service.  As many of Y/you know, I am a sociologist

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: And in sociology, community is everything, humans do everything in co-operative groups.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: In most groups, *most* people do not lead.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Most are content to be led, not in a D/s way per se, but in a "let other lead" kind of manner

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Yet every group needs leaders, hopefully good ones!

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Yet I was also thinking that in a D/s community like ours, there might be a "kink" in that so to speak...

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: As in a D/s group, we have people that want to be served who are Dominant, and people that want to serve that are on the sub side.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So I was thinking, is this a dichotomy?  Subs want to please their dominants, and Dom/mes are expected to be the leaders of the community, but at same time, the subs are the servings ones!  LOL

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: My question to the august group is, how do we balance our own needs as people in this lifestyle to serve the needs of the community, while at the same time fulfilling our own personal D/s needs on each side of the collar?

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: I think here at Xaara we do this well, but I'm also hideously biased ;)

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Does being in the lifestyle make it easier to work for the community, or do competing individual needs potentially cause friction?

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Let's discuss!

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Sir Ballard, You are up!  I look forward to your insights as soon to be Master Adept! :)

[08:21] Ballard: You gave me way too much time to type.  Here goes

[08:21] Ballard: I tend to take charge of things going on around me.  This impulse is triggered if I see a lack or extant leadership or organization.  It is in my genes, I think.  Recently I was asked is being a dominant person nurture or nature?  I truly think it is nature.

While I say that, I know a great many submissives that are capable organizers and leaders.  The two skill sets are not mutually exclusive.  Thus, I will happily accept the leadership, for a project or event, of a submissive if they seems to be doing well.

In both RL and SL I derive tremendous pleasure if I feel my partner has had a great sexual experience.  Does that make me a pleaser?  Ok fine.  I may be.  That is not submission.  I humorously think of it as a way to keep repeat business.#

[08:22] RB Quinn: laughs

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli laughs! "Well, Sir, I think You are doing will with that bevy of beauties at Your feet!" ;)

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: You raise a good point, being Dominant or Submissive doesn't mean that exclusively one is going to be a better organizer or "pleaser".  I tend to think of D/s as tendencies rather than absolute personality examples

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Submissive people can indeed be excellent at organizing and even leading a group, that doesn't make them less "submissive" in other relationships

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I've talked many times about my friend that is a 24/7 slave to her master, but she manages a Starbucks.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: She does her job really well, but boy she loves coming home and just being led!

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So I think that's a good way to look at it, Thanks Sir!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead Cecelia!

[08:28] Cecelia Hadrian: Could it be fatigue, I mean when you are in a position where you must make all the decisions its nice to just pass the reigns at times?

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, she does say that it takes a lot of energy for her to do that.

[08:29] Ballard: It's more than that, I think.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: So coming home and being told "I want this for dinner, we are watching that show, I'm caning your ass assume the position (or so I hear)" is really freeing.

[08:31] Mali Kaah: thinks of a bubblebath as relaxing...

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: But at the same time her Master does help with things around the house, when he feels like it LOL (which honestly, from what I've seen, is fairly common)

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Sir RB!

[08:33] RB Quinn: Being led reduces anxiety about making decisions, but is not necessarily 'relaxing' or 'avoiding fatigue'  (cf 'caning your ass').  #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: True, flogging might be more relaxing.....

[08:33] RB Quinn: laughs

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: but very good point about anxiety reduction Sir!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen do you have a comment to Cecelia's point?

[08:36] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni, I am very anal working with the kids at school. I am very dominate and make sure each kid follows the directions. In my two room school with 7 grades to work with I am the bad cop for discipline.  When I come home I take everything off and coming here. Everyone see me pole dancing and that relaxes me to put my mind back being in sub mine.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Right!, so it becomes a freeing exercise.  Good point!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go to Storm please!

[08:38] Storm Raiden: as a community slave it can get a little lonely without direction, but i see it as an opportunity to serve the community as a whole just by being available to offer tours or answer questions at the welcome center -also by posing quietly in the gallery or around the sim too ...in a way it's kind of a self-sustaining cycle when looked at from that perception; i am serving the community and in effect assuaging my need to be of service hand in hand even if i am currently self directed, & the last five months as a slave here has shaped me to be a better submissive, at least i hope so  XD

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: You are an excellent person and submissive, Storm, and we are very lucky to have you here!

[08:39] RB Quinn ruffles Storm's hair and smiles

[08:40] Lisa Summerland: Well done handsome Storm

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: and I think your comment is also very valid, submissives find value in serving directly.  It's the "good job" that tends to get our hearts all a-flutter.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: well said thanks!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen did you have another comment?

[08:42] Lisa Summerland: smiles at each of the lovely and well serving Ponies in our midst this morning

[08:42] Aspen Diamond: I was just going to say that being sub. It is the heart of me to serve. It does make my heart rate race when I can serve drinks or even sitting on a Master/Dom lap now when I can. Done

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Aspen!

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The submissive does have the heart to serve!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please!

[08:45] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Regarding social relations, I come from the anarchist or libertarian socialist school of thought. This means not so much, "flattened hierarchy," but limited hierarchy where real power flows from bottom to the top. The directional aspect of bottom to top makes this model compatible to kink, where the Dominant is in charge but the authority is given to them by the submissive. The burden of proof is placed on the Dominant to justify their authority before the submissive person can trust them enough to do the power exchange.

So to me, it's healthy for a submissive to mindful of their own needs and is able to assert them in the D/s relationship when they feel something is wrong. This is what I'd call healthy topping from the bottom. I would hope that would work here in Xaara as a community, that submissive people be taken seriously when they have a concern instead of just deferring to the judgment of dominants, who see things from their perspective and may overlook some of the needs of a submissive. So I feel a sub person needs to maintain some control. #

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Right!  This isn't chattel slavery after all

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Subs, even "slaves" in the way we use the term, have rights of a person and dignity of being a person that *wants* to live that way

[08:49] Ballard: Slaves here retain their right of Consent

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Absolutely Sir!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: OK Pure, you have a question

[08:50] Pure: the more responsibilities I had at my job, the more jealousy my Masters showed. There was nothing pleasant and relaxing about serving on my return home. And it went to the breaking point. How do you explain that? (Am I off topic?) But even today, I haven't found an answer. So for me, being part of a community like Xaara gives me a sense of security and “freedom” to be myself. I still have to work to feel completely confident with my Master. #

[08:50] RB Quinn: C @ Pure

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I will defer the answer to your question to our Dominants.

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB please

[08:51] RB Quinn: My initial thought is, those "Masters" did not deserve the gift of your submission. #

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir!  Please go ahead Sir Ballard

[08:51] Pure: this is the reason why I left Master RB

[08:52] RB Quinn smiles sympathetically to Pure

[08:52] Ballard: With any submissive the most important task for a dominant is to study the subs needs, and learn how to enhance their experience.  When you came home, your dominant is responsible for understanding what you need, and giving it to you.  in that way they could come to control you even more deeply.#

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed as well, Sir.

[08:54] Sting Wolf : I agree too, I have always considered that the dominance was in the faculty of listening and guiding, I am adept of Zen and epicurean

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Now one thing could be that increasing duties at work could also reduce time spent with ones Dom/me, so I could see a Dominant getting troubled a bit by that, but that means shifting schedules I'd think, so everything can work together.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: But to me it sounds like something else was going on there Pure.

[08:55] Pure: mumbles ... at home, it was no longer control but pure meanness...So I never been able to understand his way to be.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: :/

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Honestly that sounds like immaturity to me.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I'm glad you're in a better spot now Pure

[08:56] Dorthy nods in agreement with Vanni.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: And thanks for the comment!

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Miss Drachena please!

[08:57] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: This comment is regarding an aspect of the original topic question, and not related to anyone's comment/question.

[08:57] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: In talking about Dom/me to sub, and member to group, these are two different dynamics.  Someone might lead their sub, but not want to lead a group.  It's best to think of them separately.  The Group usually has its own designations and duties, hopefully well laid out, and though they might overlap at times, the purpose of them is distinctly for the benefit of the Group.  That said, a sub could be a leader of a group, and a follower in her own personal D/s dynamic, without conflict.  The concept of switching hats very much applies here. #

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I agree 100% Miss!

[08:58] Lisa Summerland: Very Well said Drachena

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli pulls out my powerpoint slide of "Micro - Meso - Macro" levels of interaction from Topic One in Intro to Soc

[08:59] RB Quinn whines "Is this gonna be on the test???"

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: What is interesting, Miss, is the interplay between the micro level interactions of say the Dom/me and their sub/s, and then the way that translates to the larger group

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: For example, how a Dominant responds to other subs here is not the same as they would to their own charge in that interplay, but at the same time, one informs the other to a degree

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: A Dom/me will lead here, but can't have the same expectations they would of their own submissive.

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: etc etc.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: So very well said, I love all that interplay on various levels of society!

[09:02] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: True, because you usually can't know the needs of a group sub as well as you can your own, but the there would be guidelines to follow.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Right :")

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You, Miss :)

[[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne, you are up please

[09:03] Brianne: Whenever I try define D/s more precisely, I find that words like responsibility and decision and leadership and service do have application to both roles.  Even subs have to decide when limits are crossed or invent ways to proactively serve.  And as Sir Ballard wisely pointed out, he 'serves' to complete his sub's life  And yet it seems clear that D's and s's do similar things in obviously different degrees, in a relationship or in an entire community.  I guess that it's one of those things that gets muddled the more closely you examine it, and yet seems axiomatic when you stand back and look at it holistically.  Like a pointillist painting, maybe?  Perhaps someone can resolve this mystery.  Or maybe it's better that it's mystery that must always be a work in progress for it to work correctly.  *shrugs* #

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I've found, Brianne, is that humans don't fit well when placed in a box of social expectation

[09:04] RB Quinn smiles, thinking he LIKES the mystery

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: For example, if a person Dominant, that doesn't by definition make them a great leader, or conversely a submissive person won't by definition make a great personal assistant.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Please go right ahead, Miss Drachena.

[09:07] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: In each case the Dom/me and sub are being true to their nature, even when lines are blurred.  Pro-actively serving is also the sub's nature.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Miss!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Good point Brianne and thank you Miss.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: OK let's go to Sultry please

[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ-: My first marriage in RL was to a man who was extremely passive, and I was forced to be the person in charge.  I found it difficult and just couldn't seem to feel comfortable taking control no matter how hard I tried.  At that time I was very young and I had no idea about the D/s lifestyle or even realize that I was a submissive. I found it to be extremely stressful which eventually led to our divorce. In most of my relationships in RL and SL, I seem to attract the more passive (for lack of a better word) male, and I had always hoped each one would take more control, make more of the decisions.  Since becoming much more active in the D/s community, I have finally learned and accepted that I derive more pleasure, and it is my desire, to be submissive and serve rather than be the one in control.  It is not to say that I cannot be independent and strong, and take charge of a project or event when I need to, but overall I find it more pleasing and definitely desirable to be controlled. And due to recent events, I

[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ-:  am even more sure that I want and need that control and to have my gift of submission be appreciated.#

[09:10] Brianne: isn't every sub here nodding right now?

[09:10] Dijana384: yes!

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: I will say that submission can mean for some being "controlled" and for others "given opportunities to serve"

[09:11] Peaches Svenska nearly fainted having spoken those words, almost verbatim, to her Master not 10 minutes ago

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Just as Domination can mean controlling or creating those opportunities

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Speaking for myself, I balk at a person barking orders at me, but if they say "Here are things for you to do" and allow me to excel at them, I get really happy.

[09:13] Lisa Summerland: Personal self realization of needs and wants and personal fulfillment of them is such a blessing, joy and blissful feeling inside....... on both sides of the D/s relationship........

[09:13] Sting Wolf : The 5 differences between a LEADER and a DOMINANT

1. THE LEADER USES “US”, THE DOMINANT THE “I”

2. THE LEADER INSPIRES CONFIDENCE, THE DOMINANT IS AFRAID

3. THE LEADER ASKS, THE DOMINANT ORDERS

4. THE LEADER LOVES COOPERATION, THE DOMINANT THE AUTHORITY

5. THE LEADER MOTIVATES, THE DOMINANT INSPIRES THE FEELING

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: That's the kind of leadership I crave, again, speaking for myself

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Everyone has their needs :)

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sultry!

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Ok back to You Sir Ballard please

[09:14] Ballard: To start with I want to completely disagree with the 'list' that Sting just put out.  That is a list of the differences between a leader and an asshole, not a dominant.

I'd like to say something, as an add on to what Pure talked about.  Let's move it to a more general sense of service to the people in our lives.  All of us have moments that are noted, or special.  A log in time, an event.  As service not only to Xaara, but to each other, it is  important to make note of those events in our lives.  A regular log in time, a talk being given, or just coming home from work.  Making those times special have a great affect on people.  As Brianne pointed out, this applies to both D and s alike.  IF it should happen that what your partner needs/wants is something that you do not wish to give, then there is a compatibility issue to be considered.  It ought to happen almost naturally.

#

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: That's certainly well said Sir.

[09:16] Gideon Tenenbaum: Ballard  does that raise the question of whether a Dominant or a submissive should have to meet every need? Can any one human meet all the needs of another?

[09:17] Ballard: Absolutely not.

[09:18] Ballard: I mean, I have these three here, and you will never put more different people together.  Each has needs and wants.  I cannot even try to meet them all, and no one of them can meet all of mine.  This is why I advocate the Open relationship model, and non-monogamy

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Nods, good point Sir!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Rouge has a comment directed to Sir Ballard, go ahead Rouge

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: then we will finish with Aspen's comment after Rouge.

[09:20] Aspen Diamond: If you are a sub you need clear directions from your Dom/Dommma . If it is not clear then you second guess them . Not good in my books. I like someone who is clear. Just my opinion. I hate blurred lines from a Dom/Master, Domma. That is why I make sure that the kids second guess you. Following the rules Master Ballard I do agree with you. Again the Open relationship model is the best on to follow Master Ballard. This has been a very good morning listening to everyone. Thank you Vanni

[09:21] Aspen Diamond: Forgive me for some of the mistakes.

[09:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: thanks Vanni.. in agreement to what my Master just said, as well as to Master Gideon.. I have many facets about my kinks and submission. being a slave I have different views on how I feel I ought to be treated etc.. there are a few of my likes / kinks that arent totally up my Masters street.. does thsat make me feel any less about Him.. far from it.. for He gives me al the support He can possibly give me to encourage me to follow those needs and desires. again a great aspect of the house im a part of, is we arent restricted to just our Master, and can serve in any way that not only fills the needs of those who call us into service.. bu also our own needs # ( sorry hands bad today )

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Good point, Rouge!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: All that said, there are some people that do fine in monogamy or one Dominant/Sub.  It's all what a person needs

[09:23] Sting Wolf : I agree Ballard they are a lot of assholes chuckles

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: As long as the dynamic works, it's all good

[09:23] Ballard: I want to say, monogamy is a legitimate need.  Some people feel it keenly, and then it is best for them.  I and mine are open, but others choose a monogamous path.  To each, their own way.

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly, Sir :)

[09:24] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: horses for course as they say, my Master

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Which goes back to what Aspen was saying

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: (and it's ok Aspen, people tend to see their name and go ;)

[09:26] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for participating in our discussion, it went a bit differently than I thought, but that's good!  Conversation should be a living thing!