[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ok it's time to start up!
[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee
Klatch! Where we discuss all things rare
and exquisite and look damn good doing it!
[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me
post the usual header: Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions
directed at a person's comment to the top.
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of
extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a
minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!
[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It holds the
[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So today is a special day here in
Xaara, it is graduation day, when those of us that have been studying to aspire
to Seraph are graduated, and our very own Sir Ballard, along with Sir Garritt,
will be elevated to Master Adept!
[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: So while ruminating on this concept,
it got me thinking about community and service.
As many of Y/you know, I am a sociologist
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: And in sociology, community is
everything, humans do everything in co-operative groups.
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: In most groups, *most* people do not
lead.
[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Most are content to be led, not in a
D/s way per se, but in a "let other lead" kind of manner
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Yet every group needs leaders,
hopefully good ones!
[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Yet I was also thinking that in a D/s
community like ours, there might be a "kink" in that so to speak...
[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: As in a D/s group, we have people
that want to be served who are Dominant, and people that want to serve that are
on the sub side.
[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So I was thinking, is this a dichotomy? Subs want to please their dominants, and
Dom/mes are expected to be the leaders of the community, but at same time, the
subs are the servings ones! LOL
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: My question to the august group is,
how do we balance our own needs as people in this lifestyle to serve the needs
of the community, while at the same time fulfilling our own personal D/s needs
on each side of the collar?
[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: I think here at Xaara we do this
well, but I'm also hideously biased ;)
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Does being in the lifestyle make it
easier to work for the community, or do competing individual needs potentially
cause friction?
[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Let's discuss!
[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Sir Ballard, You are up! I look forward to your insights as soon to be
Master Adept! :)
[08:21] Ballard: You gave me way too much time to type. Here goes
[08:21] Ballard: I tend to take charge of things going on
around me. This impulse is triggered if
I see a lack or extant leadership or organization. It is in my genes, I think. Recently I was asked is being a dominant
person nurture or nature? I truly think
it is nature.
While I say that, I know a great many submissives that are
capable organizers and leaders. The two
skill sets are not mutually exclusive.
Thus, I will happily accept the leadership, for a project or event, of a
submissive if they seems to be doing well.
In both RL and SL I derive tremendous pleasure if I feel my
partner has had a great sexual experience.
Does that make me a pleaser? Ok
fine. I may be. That is not submission. I humorously think of it as a way to keep
repeat business.#
[08:22] RB Quinn: laughs
[08:22] Vanni Cannoli laughs! "Well, Sir, I think You
are doing will with that bevy of beauties at Your feet!" ;)
[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: You raise a good point, being
Dominant or Submissive doesn't mean that exclusively one is going to be a
better organizer or "pleaser".
I tend to think of D/s as tendencies rather than absolute personality
examples
[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Submissive people can indeed be
excellent at organizing and even leading a group, that doesn't make them less
"submissive" in other relationships
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I've talked many times about my
friend that is a 24/7 slave to her master, but she manages a Starbucks.
[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: She does her job really well, but boy
she loves coming home and just being led!
[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So I think that's a good way to look
at it, Thanks Sir!
[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead Cecelia!
[08:28] Cecelia Hadrian: Could it be fatigue, I mean when
you are in a position where you must make all the decisions its nice to just
pass the reigns at times?
[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, she does say that it takes a lot
of energy for her to do that.
[08:29] Ballard: It's more than that, I think.
[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: So coming home and being told "I
want this for dinner, we are watching that show, I'm caning your ass assume the
position (or so I hear)" is really freeing.
[08:31] Mali Kaah: thinks of a bubblebath as relaxing...
[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: But at the same time her Master does
help with things around the house, when he feels like it LOL (which honestly,
from what I've seen, is fairly common)
[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: go ahead Sir RB!
[08:33] RB Quinn: Being led reduces anxiety about making
decisions, but is not necessarily 'relaxing' or 'avoiding fatigue' (cf 'caning your ass'). #
[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: True, flogging might be more
relaxing.....
[08:33] RB Quinn: laughs
[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: but very good point about anxiety
reduction Sir!
[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen do you have a comment to Cecelia's
point?
[08:36] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni, I am very anal
working with the kids at school. I am very dominate and make sure each kid
follows the directions. In my two room school with 7 grades to work with I am
the bad cop for discipline. When I come
home I take everything off and coming here. Everyone see me pole dancing and
that relaxes me to put my mind back being in sub mine.
[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Right!, so it becomes a freeing
exercise. Good point!
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!
[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Ok we go to Storm please!
[08:38] Storm Raiden: as a community slave it can get a
little lonely without direction, but i see it as an opportunity to serve the
community as a whole just by being available to offer tours or answer questions
at the welcome center -also by posing quietly in the gallery or around the sim
too ...in a way it's kind of a self-sustaining cycle when looked at from that
perception; i am serving the community and in effect assuaging my need to be of
service hand in hand even if i am currently self directed, & the last five
months as a slave here has shaped me to be a better submissive, at least i hope
so XD
[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: You are an excellent person and
submissive, Storm, and we are very lucky to have you here!
[08:39] RB Quinn ruffles Storm's hair and smiles
[08:40] Lisa Summerland: Well done handsome Storm
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: and I think your comment is also very
valid, submissives find value in serving directly. It's the "good job" that tends to
get our hearts all a-flutter.
[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: well said thanks!
[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen did you have another comment?
[08:42] Lisa Summerland: smiles at each of the lovely and
well serving Ponies in our midst this morning
[08:42] Aspen Diamond: I was just going to say that being
sub. It is the heart of me to serve. It does make my heart rate race when I can
serve drinks or even sitting on a Master/Dom lap now when I can. Done
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Aspen!
[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: The submissive does have the heart to
serve!
[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up please!
[08:45] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Regarding social
relations, I come from the anarchist or libertarian socialist school of
thought. This means not so much, "flattened hierarchy," but limited
hierarchy where real power flows from bottom to the top. The directional aspect
of bottom to top makes this model compatible to kink, where the Dominant is in
charge but the authority is given to them by the submissive. The burden of
proof is placed on the Dominant to justify their authority before the submissive
person can trust them enough to do the power exchange.
So to me, it's healthy for a submissive to mindful of their
own needs and is able to assert them in the D/s relationship when they feel
something is wrong. This is what I'd call healthy topping from the bottom. I
would hope that would work here in Xaara as a community, that submissive people
be taken seriously when they have a concern instead of just deferring to the
judgment of dominants, who see things from their perspective and may overlook
some of the needs of a submissive. So I feel a sub person needs to maintain
some control. #
[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Right! This isn't chattel slavery after all
[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Subs, even "slaves" in the
way we use the term, have rights of a person and dignity of being a person that
*wants* to live that way
[08:49] Ballard: Slaves here retain their right of Consent
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Absolutely Sir!
[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: OK Pure, you have a question
[08:50] Pure: the more responsibilities I had at my job, the
more jealousy my Masters showed. There was nothing pleasant and relaxing about
serving on my return home. And it went to the breaking point. How do you
explain that? (Am I off topic?) But even today, I haven't found an answer. So
for me, being part of a community like Xaara gives me a sense of security and
“freedom” to be myself. I still have to work to feel completely confident with
my Master. #
[08:50] RB Quinn: C @ Pure
[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I will defer the answer to your
question to our Dominants.
[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB please
[08:51] RB Quinn: My initial thought is, those
"Masters" did not deserve the gift of your submission. #
[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir! Please go ahead Sir Ballard
[08:51] Pure: this is the reason why I left Master RB
[08:52] RB Quinn smiles sympathetically to Pure
[08:52] Ballard: With any submissive the most important task
for a dominant is to study the subs needs, and learn how to enhance their
experience. When you came home, your
dominant is responsible for understanding what you need, and giving it to you. in that way they could come to control you
even more deeply.#
[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed as well, Sir.
[08:54] Sting Wolf : I agree too, I have always considered
that the dominance was in the faculty of listening and guiding, I am adept of
Zen and epicurean
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Now one thing could be that
increasing duties at work could also reduce time spent with ones Dom/me, so I
could see a Dominant getting troubled a bit by that, but that means shifting
schedules I'd think, so everything can work together.
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: But to me it sounds like something
else was going on there Pure.
[08:55] Pure: mumbles ... at home, it was no longer control
but pure meanness...So I never been able to understand his way to be.
[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: :/
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Honestly that sounds like immaturity
to me.
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I'm glad you're in a better spot now
Pure
[08:56] Dorthy nods in agreement with Vanni.
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: And thanks for the comment!
[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Miss Drachena please!
[08:57] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: This comment is regarding an aspect of the
original topic question, and not related to anyone's comment/question.
[08:57] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: In talking about Dom/me to sub, and member
to group, these are two different dynamics.
Someone might lead their sub, but not want to lead a group. It's best to think of them separately. The Group usually has its own designations
and duties, hopefully well laid out, and though they might overlap at times,
the purpose of them is distinctly for the benefit of the Group. That said, a sub could be a leader of a
group, and a follower in her own personal D/s dynamic, without conflict. The concept of switching hats very much
applies here. #
[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I agree 100% Miss!
[08:58] Lisa Summerland: Very Well said Drachena
[08:59] Vanni Cannoli pulls out my powerpoint slide of
"Micro - Meso - Macro" levels of interaction from Topic One in Intro
to Soc
[08:59] RB Quinn whines "Is this gonna be on the
test???"
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli giggles
[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: What is interesting, Miss, is the
interplay between the micro level interactions of say the Dom/me and their
sub/s, and then the way that translates to the larger group
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: For example, how a Dominant responds
to other subs here is not the same as they would to their own charge in that
interplay, but at the same time, one informs the other to a degree
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: A Dom/me will lead here, but can't
have the same expectations they would of their own submissive.
[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: etc etc.
[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: So very well said, I love all that
interplay on various levels of society!
[09:02] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: True, because you usually can't know the
needs of a group sub as well as you can your own, but the there would be
guidelines to follow.
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Right :")
[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You, Miss :)
[[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne, you are up please
[09:03] Brianne: Whenever I try define D/s more precisely, I
find that words like responsibility and decision and leadership and service do
have application to both roles. Even
subs have to decide when limits are crossed or invent ways to proactively
serve. And as Sir Ballard wisely pointed
out, he 'serves' to complete his sub's life
And yet it seems clear that D's and s's do similar things in obviously
different degrees, in a relationship or in an entire community. I guess that it's one of those things that
gets muddled the more closely you examine it, and yet seems axiomatic when you
stand back and look at it holistically.
Like a pointillist painting, maybe?
Perhaps someone can resolve this mystery. Or maybe it's better that it's mystery that
must always be a work in progress for it to work correctly. *shrugs* #
[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I've found, Brianne, is
that humans don't fit well when placed in a box of social expectation
[09:04] RB Quinn smiles, thinking he LIKES the mystery
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: For example, if a person Dominant,
that doesn't by definition make them a great leader, or conversely a submissive
person won't by definition make a great personal assistant.
[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Please go right ahead, Miss Drachena.
[09:07] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: In each case the Dom/me and sub are being
true to their nature, even when lines are blurred. Pro-actively serving is also the sub's
nature.
[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Miss!
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Good point Brianne and thank you
Miss.
[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: OK let's go to Sultry please
[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ-: My first marriage in RL was to a man
who was extremely passive, and I was forced to be the person in charge. I found it difficult and just couldn't seem
to feel comfortable taking control no matter how hard I tried. At that time I was very young and I had no
idea about the D/s lifestyle or even realize that I was a submissive. I found
it to be extremely stressful which eventually led to our divorce. In most of my
relationships in RL and SL, I seem to attract the more passive (for lack of a
better word) male, and I had always hoped each one would take more control,
make more of the decisions. Since
becoming much more active in the D/s community, I have finally learned and
accepted that I derive more pleasure, and it is my desire, to be submissive and
serve rather than be the one in control.
It is not to say that I cannot be independent and strong, and take
charge of a project or event when I need to, but overall I find it more
pleasing and definitely desirable to be controlled. And due to recent events, I
[09:08] -ღ Sultry ღ-:
am even more sure that I want and need that control and to have my gift
of submission be appreciated.#
[09:10] Brianne: isn't every sub here nodding right now?
[09:10] Dijana384: yes!
[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: I will say that submission can mean
for some being "controlled" and for others "given opportunities
to serve"
[09:11] Peaches Svenska nearly fainted having spoken those
words, almost verbatim, to her Master not 10 minutes ago
[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Just as Domination can mean
controlling or creating those opportunities
[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Speaking for myself, I balk at a
person barking orders at me, but if they say "Here are things for you to
do" and allow me to excel at them, I get really happy.
[09:13] Lisa Summerland: Personal self realization of needs
and wants and personal fulfillment of them is such a blessing, joy and blissful
feeling inside....... on both sides of the D/s relationship........
[09:13] Sting Wolf : The 5 differences between a LEADER and
a DOMINANT
1. THE LEADER USES “US”, THE DOMINANT THE “I”
2. THE LEADER INSPIRES CONFIDENCE, THE DOMINANT IS AFRAID
3. THE LEADER ASKS, THE DOMINANT ORDERS
4. THE LEADER LOVES COOPERATION, THE DOMINANT THE AUTHORITY
5. THE LEADER MOTIVATES, THE DOMINANT INSPIRES THE FEELING
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: That's the kind of leadership I
crave, again, speaking for myself
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Everyone has their needs :)
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sultry!
[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Ok back to You Sir Ballard please
[09:14] Ballard: To start with I want to completely disagree
with the 'list' that Sting just put out.
That is a list of the differences between a leader and an asshole, not a
dominant.
I'd like to say something, as an add on to what Pure talked
about. Let's move it to a more general
sense of service to the people in our lives.
All of us have moments that are noted, or special. A log in time, an event. As service not only to Xaara, but to each
other, it is important to make note of
those events in our lives. A regular log
in time, a talk being given, or just coming home from work. Making those times special have a great
affect on people. As Brianne pointed
out, this applies to both D and s alike.
IF it should happen that what your partner needs/wants is something that
you do not wish to give, then there is a compatibility issue to be
considered. It ought to happen almost
naturally.
#
[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: That's certainly well said Sir.
[09:16] Gideon Tenenbaum: Ballard does that raise the question of whether a
Dominant or a submissive should have to meet every need? Can any one human meet
all the needs of another?
[09:17] Ballard: Absolutely not.
[09:18] Ballard: I mean, I have these three here, and you
will never put more different people together.
Each has needs and wants. I
cannot even try to meet them all, and no one of them can meet all of mine. This is why I advocate the Open relationship model,
and non-monogamy
[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Nods, good point Sir!
[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Rouge has a comment directed to Sir
Ballard, go ahead Rouge
[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: then we will finish with Aspen's
comment after Rouge.
[09:20] Aspen Diamond: If you are a sub you need clear
directions from your Dom/Dommma . If it is not clear then you second guess them
. Not good in my books. I like someone who is clear. Just my opinion. I hate
blurred lines from a Dom/Master, Domma. That is why I make sure that the kids
second guess you. Following the rules Master Ballard I do agree with you. Again
the Open relationship model is the best on to follow Master Ballard. This has
been a very good morning listening to everyone. Thank you Vanni
[09:21] Aspen Diamond: Forgive me for some of the mistakes.
[09:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: thanks Vanni.. in agreement to what
my Master just said, as well as to Master Gideon.. I have many facets about my
kinks and submission. being a slave I have different views on how I feel I
ought to be treated etc.. there are a few of my likes / kinks that arent
totally up my Masters street.. does thsat make me feel any less about Him.. far
from it.. for He gives me al the support He can possibly give me to encourage
me to follow those needs and desires. again a great aspect of the house im a
part of, is we arent restricted to just our Master, and can serve in any way
that not only fills the needs of those who call us into service.. bu also our
own needs # ( sorry hands bad today )
[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Good point, Rouge!
[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: All that said, there are some people
that do fine in monogamy or one Dominant/Sub.
It's all what a person needs
[09:23] Sting Wolf : I agree Ballard they are a lot of assholes
chuckles
[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: As long as the dynamic works, it's
all good
[09:23] Ballard: I want to say, monogamy is a legitimate
need. Some people feel it keenly, and
then it is best for them. I and mine are
open, but others choose a monogamous path.
To each, their own way.
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly, Sir :)
[09:24] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: horses for course as they say, my
Master
[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Which goes back to what Aspen was
saying
[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: (and it's ok Aspen, people tend to
see their name and go ;)
[09:26] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for participating in
our discussion, it went a bit differently than I thought, but that's good! Conversation should be a living thing!
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