"Perceptions of Abuse": January 3, 2021

Koffee Klatch, January 3, 2021

Topic:  Perceptions of Abuse

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Happy New Year!  Welcome to our first Klatch discussion of 2021

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Hopefully this year will not be as....momentous....as others.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: or last year in particular.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: I'm also going to add if we could please keep extraneous chat down to a minimum, when we start, it would really help.  Thank Y/you!

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: so our first discussion topic for today is "views of abuse."

[08:16] ṧтσʀᴍʏ ωʀιтєʀ: good morning

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: BDSM is a very subjective activity

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: I mean, most of what we do, seen by vanilla types, is violent, abusive behavior.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: and of course, we disagree 100%

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: so it's almost inevitable, at least in SL, that people are going to come around, see something they think is dangerous, abusive and cruel, and make comments about it

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Just a few weeks ago, as an example, a few of us were kneeling around the Xmas Tree, and a new person came in, saw us kneeling, and started lecturing all of us about how horrible we were

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And that we subs should "stand immediately and stop degrading ourselves"

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Imagine if he'd seen a whipping scene.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: anyway Master Laz set him straight, and the new fellow left for greener pastures....hopefully Bondage Ranch.  *cough*

[08:20] Abriel Stargazer: gotta love the White Knighters

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: so I have two questions.  The first is:  have Y/you had this happen, where some activity Y/you were doing was seen and remarked on as horrible and dangerous, maybe even from someone *in* the scene?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: And had to deal with that?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Or have Y/you seen this happen, sort of like what I just described?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: I've seen quite a bit of this in SL lol

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's go to Abriel first!  Abs, you're up!

[08:23] Abriel Stargazer: Not to me, but a former "Dom" (and I use the term loosely) was at Fountain with me and saw an Angel with nice bright red marks on her legs and butt. Despite me advising htat he needed to stay out of it he decided to IM her in an attempt to "rescuse" her, and quite deservedly got his butt chewed by her Dom at the time.  Took all of my willpower to not to "I told you so" but I somehow managed to do it #

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Ha!

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Yeppers, I've seen that too Abs.

[08:24] Dijana384: me as well

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Again, people don't get our world and they want to be "helpful, like."

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that Abs!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sir Ballard, next please.

[08:25] Ballard: Yeah, well.  Back years ago in SL I used to participate in CNC play often.  I'm sure some felt abused.  I hope they did!  Even so there always always a consent step, a negotiation to make sure we were all on the same page.  I know that often that step was overlooked, and as a result many people felt trod upon, abused.  Many left roleplay over that and harbor deep feelings of anger and resentment, bordering on PTSD.  #

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Was this in Gor, Sir?

[08:26] Ballard: Not always, I have done several types of CNC in SL.  gor yes, but also urban, and other types

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: But it was in a community where it was sort of understood that CNC activity will be going on?  My point is, we don't do that here, but if I went to say Dark Alley, my presence there is sort of either consent to be in the RP or get kicked out.

[08:28] Ballard: Crack Den, for example.  Yes, that sort of thing.  Even so any scene had to have some prior discussions, or else bad experiences would result.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: OH certainly!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli is a huge proponent of negotiation

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Good points, thank You Sir!

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: Amber, you are up please!

[08:29] ღ αмвєя ღ: This has happened (white knight syndrome) in IM's more times than I can count on fingers, toes, and nipples.  And when I tell them that it's even better in RL, they seem to be more disgusted.  I try to explain that different things make us tick, but of course, it falls on deaf ears... To Sir Ballard's point, I can take some strange behavior and compartmentalize it to RP-only (and I will RP anything) - and I love the helplessness RP, so sometimes the "consent" step takes away from the RP's immersiveness, it's a catch-22.  But if I say "stop", then stop!   Thank you! #

[08:30] Ballard makes a note 'will RP anything'... puts the note pad away.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Red is red!  Unless one is color blind.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: I was making that same note as well, Sir *grins*

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: We have talked about CNC and extreme play here before, I am sure they will come up again this year

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: And thanks for your comment, Amber, that's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hit on here...how do we deal with people who "don't get it?"

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Amber! :)

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: we go to Gem, go ahead please

[08:33] Gem: Not in chat but i  got a freebie item from somewhere that had a NC in it from the creator who seemed to be a Born Again type and it called on her customers to pray for all the poor souls lost in the dark side of SlL BDSM and Gor in particular I cant recall who it was  and i deleted the religious clap trap as soon as i realised what it was.#

[08:34] Dijana384: wow

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: wait she made BDSM toys and it contained a notecard that said "I'm praying for you?"

[08:34] Gem: no it was a pair of shoes if i remember correctly

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: oh!

[08:34] Abriel Stargazer: That is messed up

[08:35] Abriel Stargazer: but I can't say I'm surprised

[08:35] Gem: may i make a further comment?

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: I'd like to get a paddle that says "I'm praying for you" and hear the bottom scream "OH GOD" during a scene.  It's all very holy and inspiring.

[08:35] Abriel Stargazer: when I had a property near the blake sea those sorts would come by and inform me they were praying for my poor Jewish soul

[08:36] Gem: there’s a review of the Ethical Slut on Amazon UK from the same type of person who goes to great length to tell u that we are sinful and god will punish us for daring to love more than one person.

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Well I guess she meant well, Gem

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Being in a marginalized community means we'll get that kind of reaction from time to time

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that Gem!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sultry please

[08:38] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: choice such as "How can you do that? How can you allow someone to control you?" etc.  I will then let them know that they most likely have no knowledge of what the lifestyle is about and are making presumptions about about it.  Most ask for more information, but I have lost a few "friends" because of it.#choice such as "How can you do that? How can you allow someone to control you?" etc.  I will then let them know that they most likely have no knowledge of what the lifestyle is about and are making presumptions about about it.  Most ask for more information, but I have lost a few "friends" because of it.#

[08:38] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: oops...cut off the first part.....I have had friends take notice of my profile and make comments about my "lifestyle" choice

[08:38] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ-: lol

[08:39] Gem: c to sultry

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Gem

[08:39] Gem: Real friends should accept your choices even if the disagree with them

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: I don't mind friends telling me they think I'm doing something "Wrong" in their sight...provided it's just a comment.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: But if they are going to put our friendship contingent on whether or not I change...that's not going to work.  That's not a friend.  IMO.

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you both Sultry and Gem!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Flo, you are up please!

[08:42] flo: I participated in some misogynistic RP places in SL in the past, it is just a humiliation fantasy played out and also consensual by all participants, but sometimes visitors would not understand it and they would tell this, then I explained to them I did this style of scening willingly and enjoyed it otherwise I would have not been there. if I came through, I don't know, more I can't do really, I don't have to be understood by everyone, luckily I never lost friends because of it in SL, perhaps because my friend circle is mostly into the kinky stuff too. #

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: You're with the enlightened! ;)

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: It can be very hard for vanilla types to grok what we do

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: but all we can do is try to offer some explanation, and if they don't get it, wish them well

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Flo!

[08:44] Lisa Summerland: and turn away any attempts of manipulation by them

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: we have an anonymous question next, someone likes my toy here!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: and it didn't spit it out hmmm

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: anyway the question was "what about abuse we can't see" such as isolation, abuse of people away from our areas.

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: to which I guess I would answer, if we can't see it or know about it, what can we do about it?

[08:47] MistressCollette Goldshark: volunteer at local domestic violence organizations?

[08:47] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: been there done that

[08:47] Ballard: I have a rather long answer already typed out

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: and that is sort of away from the point of today's discussion --- while obviously important, the topic today is subjective views of abuse.

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Oh go right ahead Sir, that's Your comment at the bottom?

[08:48] Ballard: a bit of both

[08:48] Ballard: Abuse.  The word smacks of heaviness.  When abuse is taking place there always seems to be an absolute value assigned to it.  This is a very important topic to all of us in this lifestyle. 

The way to avoid abuse is by following all of those things we talk about here.  Never touch a person without consent. Negotiate.  Let me say that these two here, Candice and Rouge, get what most women would call abuse!  Their only issue with it is they don't get as much as they want.  For Dominants there is a very important safeguard, and that being take one's time, talk, know who you are dealing with.  Never take a flirtation as consent. 

I spend an awful lot of emotional capital (of my own) dealing with people that feel they have been the subject of abuse.  Let me say that because they feel they have been, then they have been indeed.  If you feel that has happened to you find someone that you trust, and talk to them.  It is the first step towards training or eliminating the abuser, and helping you get back your

[08:49] Ballard: I warned you it's long!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: hee hee

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: valuable though, Sir!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: ok Amber you are up again please!

[08:52] ღ αмвєя ღ took a breath and spoke... "Many of us have agreed to consent to some behavior that then turned into something else - completely unexpected behavior.  In the moment it seems unfathomable - and later it hits you...  then I need time by myself to process everything..."#

[08:53] ღ αмвєя ღ: Sorry, I guess I should be clearer - looking to engage, to build that mindfuck of submissiveness - and then you get grabbed and physically abused before you can get to that point, completely ruined with lack of trust.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: That certainly can happen, Amber

[08:54] ღ αмвєя ღ: I'm more careful now than I was in my 20's *soft smile* - and now I mean #

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: It's why I won't scene with anyone I don't know and have already built up some level of connection....that goes for both First and Second Lives

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: But that's I roll, YMMV

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Good point thank you Amber!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Gem, you are up again please

[08:55] Gem: I'd just like to say that the last three months have been an eyeopener and that I'm glad i found such a tolerant community as this..Seriously i don't think I've ever been in such a relaxed atmosphere and I've finally  stopped being uptight about my needs and wants. Also i agree with Master Ballard regarding not taking a flirtation as anything more than that having learnt the hard way that it is a very bad road to travel.#

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: I think we do have a top notch community here, not to down other places.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: *places

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: But there is a reason I give my all to Xaara.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: And I’m glad you've found a good place, Gem :)

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Gem!

[08:57] Ballard: If I had a dollar for every time A person here has taken flirting as consent, then over stepped, I could buy us all coffee with a bagel!

[08:57] Candice Svenska nods

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Ok thanks Gem!

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Pure you are up please!

[09:00] Pure: For me, abuse is not a PR issue or a lifestyle issue. It's often psychological ... when a dominant talks about "good connection" and plays with the feelings of a submissive. It's so cruel! And unfortunately this happens more often than you might think. I prefer a good spanking rather than hearing "I love you" which are false!

[09:00] Pure: RP issue*

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: We have said many times here that while we can't be *physically* hurt, mental and emotional abuse are very real things that can happen.

[09:01] Gem: nods decisively

[09:01] Ballard: And do happen, too often

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks for that Pure, very true.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Sam, You are up please.

[09:03] Sam Cabot: Ballard,  loved your earlier comment. Bravo and thank you. I also want to add I loved Amber's earlier comment about how negotiation sometimes takes away from the immersiveness, and the fun of 'living the scene'. I also like this line Ballard said - Never take a flirtation as consent. - Sometimes in my eagerness to truly enjoy an interaction, I look for signals (as opposed to seeking explicit consent). The good thing about it is, I have had truly amazing playtimes because everything in the scene was spontaneous. The bad is, a couple girls must have felt it was abuse. I watch signals even more closely when I do something without a full negotiation and respectfully pull back at the first sign that she is not eager. And, I try not to get butt hurt over it. Part of me says even 1 person feeling abused is unacceptable. Another part of me is going "Oh but the thrill of an unplanned scene!" Not easy to find the balance, but we should continually be trying to learn from our mistakes. Wait a minute, I'm a dominant, we

[09:03] Sam Cabot:  dominants don't make mistakes, right? lol #

[09:03] Brianne: well said Sir

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: I think, Sir, that when some people hear "negotiation" they think that means that every action has to be planned and accepted.  Really, it's more "what would you like is outright no go" and then, as You said, being careful to make sure that things don't go sideways

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: When I am topping in First Life, I'm endlessly checking with the bottom to be sure things are going well.  A quick "You good, do you want more" or something is better than hearing "RED" and then it all ends too fast.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: and I've seen scenes that go RED in like the first 30 seconds ....

[09:06] Candice Svenska: wow

[09:06] Dijana384: yikes

[09:06] Daelenie McMillan: you spank to hard Vanni

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Oh yeah, lack of negotiation done properly

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: No, not to me!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli pokes Dae :P

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: I've *seen* it happen

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: inexperienced Top just starts hitting

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: BZZZZT

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: done

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir Sam for your comment!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Things we will probably touch on in the coming weeks

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Zahar, you are up please

[09:08] zahar: An other side to that is abuse from other submissives in the form of taunting, judgemental, criticism, topping to make one feel less than. it is incredibly stressful and exhausting. I handle it by distancing but its still annoying. I fear confrontation would make it worse. (apologies, I see several explanations of where abuse occurs).

[09:08] Now playing: Duke Ellington - Sugar Rum Cherry (Dance of the Sugar-Plum Fairy)

[09:08] -ღ Sultry Morani ღ- nods to Zahar

[09:09] Brianne: good point to make, I say

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Sadly that does happen

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Which goes back to "Ur Doing it Wrng"

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: And some people can just be horrible to another.  sigh

[09:10] Candice Svenska nods

[09:11] Abriel Stargazer: and sadly confrontaton does sometimes make it worse...when I tried to confront the sub who did that to me, the next day I got a nastygram from a Dom whom I had nevermet, never spoken to, tearing into me and saying all sorts of horrid stuff. a lot of them oftentimes are masters at manipulating people to take their side

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good points and comments thanks Zahar

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Well...at that point, Abs, as they are abusing their authority, you don't have to be very nice.  I'd have just muted the person.

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Submissive != doormat

[09:13] Brianne: hee

[09:13] zahar: smiles.

[09:13] Abriel Stargazer: I did, I blocked him. Wish I had done more but at the time I was so shaken that I couldn't think of anything to say to him

[09:13] Pure: whispers..."are they so bad in their skins to do thing like that?"

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway, we could go on but that's a different topic.  Thanks Zahar and Abs

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard you have what appears to be the final comment today!

[09:14] Ballard: This is why I always stress how important it is to take one's time before scening.  I will say that I have invested the time, over weeks to get to know many of our submissives here.  To the  point where we are ready.  I know now that I can walk up to her, grab her hair, and bend her over the back of a chair.  I know I can expect that spontaneous act to result in squeals of pleasure and not howls of anger.  And to the submissives, in those gentle discussions - be absolutely clear.  It's ok to say that you enjoy flirting, but are in a monogamous situation.  It is fine to politely say 'not interested'.  What is NOT fine is to be unclear and let a person wonder where they stand.  Dominants tend to be decisive, and take uncertainty as leaning their way. #

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: I agree Sir Ballard

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: SL can be a bit quirky as we don't have tone here in text speak

[09:16] Abriel Stargazer can say the same for subs too

[09:16] Ballard: exactly

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: But I think it's not too hard to be a bit more direct

[09:16] Candice Svenska yup

[09:16] Ballard: words that are 'diplomatic' can also be misleading.

[09:16] Dijana384: mmhmm...say what you mean

[09:17] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I had so much to say today but I didn't even know here to begin and my head is fragmented from spending the morning with my Mistress

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: I would suggest Charles Peirce's classic essay "How to Make Our Ideas Clear" but it might be a bit academic lol

[09:17] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: OH Chomsky Loves Pierce

[09:18] Ballard: I have a  policy of asking straight out.  "May I have your permission to touch you.  Yes or no, not maybe."

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: and it's better to say "no" at first and talk about why, IMO.  It could lead to "yes" once the person gets the intent

[09:19] Ballard: Or simpy reply that you want more time to get to know me, before giving consent

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: right!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: We are humans, we have a cerebral cortex.,...let's use it!

[09:19] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I was in a situation with a male dom 6months ago where he got me into voice. It escalated from flirting to him taking control of me with a powerful voice, putting me in a head space where I wasn't able to think rationally. He started making me promise to submit to him in full whenever we met in sl. I had to pull myself together and asked him to stop. I was being almost completely  dominated without prior negotiation and consent. I didn't even know him and I was about to lose myself.

I confronted him about it at the fountain last week and had good discussion.

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: omg CC, that's abusive behavior from him 100%

[09:20] Dijana384: absolutely

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: That was a great first discussion, thank Y/you all!

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: We'll get to my second question next week