"Sadism": March 14th, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ok let's get started!

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So the last couple weeks we discussed the B and D in BDSM, Bondage and Discipline, and last week had a rousing discussion on Punishment and Funishment

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Today we start S/M with a discussion of the S -- Sadism

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: I have a bit of exposition first then we'll go to comments and questions.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Merriam-Webster gives a general definition of Sadism as "the derivation of sexual gratification from the infliction of physical pain or humiliation on another person."

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: the Dominant Guide has a more specific definition for our kind of community:

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: "Within the BDSM community, the Dominant is most often the sadist, and the  submissive is generally the masochist (who derives pleasure from receiving pain). Also in the BDSM community, unlike most societal descriptions in the medical and psychological community, sadism is widely accepted as a healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual pleasure."

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Acts of Sadism seem to puzzle a lot of vanilla people in First Life -- "why do you get off hitting people?"

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: The answer to this varies from person to person, but in general, the feeling of power, of letting that desire to cause hurt to a person channeled onto a person that is willingly allowing it (nay, deeply desiring it!), and the lovely marks that are left on the willing Bottom with the hands, the paddle, the whip, etc, are the charges that drive the Sadist.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Sadism does not need to necessarily involve physical hitting, by the way.  Sadism may involve humiliation of the willing Bottom, mixed with physical pain or completely in place of it.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Different things turn on different Bottoms, so one Bottom might like being hit with a paddle until his or her ass and thighs are black and blue, while another may not want any physical pain at all, but really gets off on being totally objectified and humiliated in front of people.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: For today's discussion, however, I'd like to avoid Humiliation and focus on the Sadistic acts of "hitting, etc."  Humiliation is another ball of wax that we've discussed here, and really should have it's own hour.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: One last thing...

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: We are NOT discussing a psychological condition here where a person just acts sadistically toward people minus consent.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: A person doing that literally has a psychological disorder

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And cannot perform BDSM in any Safe, Sane or Consensual manner

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: so a person walking around acting like a jerk to everyone around them isn't a sadist in our definition...they're a jerk.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So with all that, let's discuss this.  Are You a sadist, do Y/you like sadism?  Or is this an arcane thing Y/you'd rather avoid

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: We'll start with Master RB, please.

[08:21] RB Quinn: Thank you, Vanni.  I told you last night i did not 'get' sadism... exactly because I had that 'non-consent' definition in mind.  I appreciate your exposition, which aside from having Taree and Elli here *beams*, makes getting up at this ungodly hour worthwhile!!! #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Definitely "proper" Sadism in the way we talk about it requires 100% consent, even what we call "consensual non-consent" (which is obviously consensual!)

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: And thank You Master RB!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master RB, Let's move to Master Ballard please!

[08:23] Ballard: Well, A while ago I had an amusing conversation with our very own Nova.  I told her that in all honesty, I don't consider myself a sadist.  I am, in fact, very sexual, and a scene with me invariably will lead to sex.  Binding a woman and whipping her turns me on, so it's foreplay.   She then observed that I had just described the definition of a sadist -  deriving sexual arousal from inflicting pain.  *sighs* 

The word is emotionally charged.  Like any behavior, there is no one way, or 'right' way.  Each of us has to explore it, come to grips with it, and find who we are in this lifestyle.  Don't let a label get in the way of your own desires. #

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: 100% agreed Master Ballard.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Sadism is derived, as many know, from the Marqs de Sade, in his book "101 Nights of Sodomy" which I tried to read and found rather unreadable lol

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: So because de Sade was a total libertine in his writing and many people find his stuff rather twisted, "Sadism" got a bad rap

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: I mean at one point in that book, the libertines talk about killing and eating the maid

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I didn't bother reading the rest

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: so yeah...."Sadism" gets mixed up with that

[08:26] Elli Quinn: And without ketchup! Barbarians.

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Exactly!  Or some nice HP Sauce and a bit of Spotted Dick

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: So I agree Master Ballard, that the word is "charged" and a lot of people think "Sadism == sickness"...especially as there is a Sadistic Personality Disorder that is totally different than what we are talking about here.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: And try to explain this to a vanilla lol

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master for that insight!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Candice please!

[08:28] Candice Svenska: thank You Vanni, this is something i wrote a while back:

[08:29] Candice Svenska:

P=Pure Pleasure

A=Asserts my balance

I=increases my adrenalin

N=Narcissistic (yeas i had to look this word up ~grins~)

4 things i found to spell out for the word pain that truly describe what it does for me, also helps me surrender fully into the trust and loving hand of a person i fully trust not to overdo the torture to a point of no return.

when pain is delivered to me its not a punishment (unless it really is), but i only enjoy pain of pleasure, its releasing the inner me completely, i have control only to scream, swear and call out the pleasure, everything else i submit fully in trust of the one inserting it. Whether i am tied, strung up or told to stand or position myself to submit to the implement of choice, given a preference i would always choose the whip or flogger as my mind can race a million miles away at the sounds, the bite, thrashes, the cutting into my flesh baring my inner body, the marks left behind, power its released, the sensations caused, it arouses so much more than a spank with a

[08:29] Candice Svenska:  paddle. But honestly, dragging me off by the hair, pinning me down and whooping my ass raw with a bare hand can cause electrifying ramifications, to my mind, body and soul in world. Pain for submission i have honestly found to be mind blowing, i have never tried real, only with senses blind folded not knowing what was coming in the scene#

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: You....MASOCHIST you! ;)

[08:30] Candice Svenska: ~grins~

[08:30] Brianne: Awesome

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: I want to come back to you on this next week if you are here, Candice, as this is really a fine example of masochism!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: But what I will say right now is that every Sadist in the room just got a big grin on their face!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Running hands over hot, red marks while the bottom just lies there in a fog.  Better than pizza, and I love pizza!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway thank you for that Candice,and next week I'll remember to come back to you so we can get into your kinky mind and tell us WHY you like all that

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason, You are up please!

[08:34] Sir Jason Oi: Looking up at my tag I would definitely classify myself as a sadist. I enjoy all forms of sadistic play impact play(all sorts), knife play, fire play, blood play, needles, blood impact play, sadistic rope both in RL and SL. My tag is a warning as well as an invitation and conversation starter.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli perks happily

[08:34] Beth Oi nods at warning sign

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: May I ask a question, Sir?

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: As a follow up.

[08:35] Sir Jason Oi: Certain;y

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: How do people in general react to Your title and when You talk about your...interests...here in SL?  Do You get some flack for it, or is everyone "Dat be cool?"

[08:37] Sir Jason Oi: I get mixed responses, some ask further questions some ignore it and some have given me flack for sure. I wear it as a badge of honor and I guess I'm a little bit infamous.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli cheers \o/

[08:37] Becky Summerland giggles and blows a kiss to Sir Jason

[08:37] Sir Jason Oi smiles

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You Sir!

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Sir Sam,please!

[08:38] Sam Cabot: "I do have a sadistic streak in me. I don't know if I would call myself a sadist though because it is not essential for me to enjoy the service of a sub. For me, it is not enough for a sub to say she consents to it. No, for me, she has to ENJOY masochism and derive as much pleasure as I derive in inflicting pain, or I won't do it. But when I know the sub enjoys it....I don't have words to describe the pleasure." pauses for a couple seconds lost in the thought before snapping out of it "And of course I remind her before the scene starts that safewording is an essential tool to be used for her safety and well being".#

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: ♥♥♥

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: One thing I will say as a person who does this stuff in First Life....a Top can't really rely on a safeword in a scene....*checking in* regularly is a must.

[08:39] Sir Jason Oi: Absolutely true

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Simply because the bottom is going to be in a sea of neurotransmitter and may well not know what is going on other than all the physical sensation

[08:40] Becky Summerland: 100% ma chérie

[08:40] Sam Cabot: True dat Vanni. I have paused scenes a couple times because I saw the sub wasn't ok, but had not safeworded.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: So when I am doing Top stuff, I always slow down a bit, move the bottom to a new position or at least do some light sensation touching and talk to them, to be sure they're ok

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: I've seen people at the club go and not check in and it's really off putting to me

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: But I love all you said, Sir Sam...we are hearing the marks of Good Sadists here!  Just like Good Housekeeping, just kinkier!

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Becky please!

[08:44] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie!

[08:44] Becky Summerland: Oh, I am shamelessly a sadist... I admit to all of it, I am most of it... I've always compared myself to a cat, enjoying playing with my 'food', a nibble here and there... Nothing I enjoyed more than hearing Nixie with her wide eyes ask me for the first time "what did I do?" and my answer was simply "you made me very happy and will even more".... that was of course after weeks of sharing, talking, getting in her head, listening... those who know me know I care deeply, so, getting her ready to take it was very important, as is starting her slowly, because I will keep on increasing our pleasures  the more we grow together... and mostly, one of my golden rules, making sure that, all the way, and at the end, when she will cry in my arms, she'd still feel safe and loved, cared for. #

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: ♥♥♥

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: By the way, it might puzzle some to hear Becky talk about being a Sadist, as she is also a submissive to Miss Lisa.   D/s and S/M are two completely different things

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: One of the best Tops I know at my club is a slave to her Mistress

[08:47] Becky Summerland: true ♥

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: And I love beating people, but I am not a Dominant, I can Top pretty well, but after a scene I want to make you dinner

[08:48] Sir Jason Oi: Some of the most sadistic people I know are masochists

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: True Sir Jason!

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Becky!

[08:49] Becky Summerland: I love to whip cream, but also to be whipped back in shape

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Aspen please

[08:50] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni, Consent is where it is. Pain comes in like flavors like ice cream. There is allot of subs that need that release from there ((REAL JOBS)). It can also be on the emotional side also. I like a little pain when because then I can cry without a reason. When I get depressed and need a good cry I use to go and find a good cry baby move, but when you have a partner who can help with releasing that pain and mood helps. So I can turn pain into pleasure at times as a sub/slave even in Gor I did that. It is Trust like Candice wrote. Thank you Candice for your explanation.

Candice? you are right being pulled off by the hair, Being turned over and pinned by a Master whooping my ass raw with a hand, flogger, paddle, and making me settle down and take a deep breath and cry. Once that all comes out I feel all new and ready to face it.

The care of the Master, making me write out what really happen and talk with him also helps and wipes the chart clan.

Master Sam is right because maybe I have a little masochism in me also. Thank you for pointing that out Master.

Thank you Vanni.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: I had a student many years ago who would regularly go to a local BDSM club to get beat and "settle down" so she could study

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Actually I need to thank her....She got some Dominants from the club to come talk to my class, and that's how Vanni started to worm her way into the First LIfe BDSM world

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Visited the club, went to expos and munches, and before I knew it, I HAD THE DISEASE...I was a pervert!  And I loved it!

[08:54] Ballard: But a cute pervert, so it's ok

[08:54] Aspen Diamond: I would love to get back in the Real World again but living in a small town and have to travel at least 50 miles in all direction can be a pain in the ass like to day being snowed in.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Aspen!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Harry you are up please!

[08:54] harry: As you said Vanni, Vanilla people just don't get the idea . For myself i would say that i am a Vanilla person except that having come here to Xaara and having had my butt spanked i found i get, how shall i call it, a rush of pure excitement and i LOVE IT! If that makes me a sadist then, lol, i'm all for it. #

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Well it makes you a masochist

[08:55] Sir Jason Oi: That makes you a masochist

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Jinx, Sir!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: but it means you like people doing sadistic things to you!

[08:55] harry grins, Ah, thanks for the update

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: so welcome to the club

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli gives you a membership card and some hospital grade disinfectant to clean the frames and such

[08:57] harry: But it's not only that i'm a masichist, there is also the D/s relationship as well but thats perhaps for another time

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: We'll get into that in April

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: We still have Masochism and Humiliation I want to talk about

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: in the next couple weeks

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Harry!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason, we are back at You please!

[08:58] Sir Jason Oi: The checking in that you mentioned is why I really like the Traffic Light System vs. octopus (for instance) for safewords and checking in I ask "What's your color?" and as long as the answer is "Green" I just keep going. If I hear "Yellow" I'll slow down, lighten up, change toys or area of the body. A "Red" does not always mean that a scene has to stop but we at very least need to pause and talk about things before possibly continuing the scene. And yes sadism and masochism can be very cathartic.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: As long as people understand what the words are and what they mean going into the scene, that's great, Sir.

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: It's why negotiation before the scene is required.  Even in a long term relationship, some pre-check-in is a good thing, although it doesn't have to be extensive

[08:59] Sir Jason Oi: Traffic Light System gives gradients to safewording

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: I'm always reminded of the last scene in "Secretary" when Lee drops the bug on the perfect bed....that was a sign that "I want to play tonight...give me some funishment for putting the bug here"

[09:00] Sir Jason Oi: Mmhmm

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: So he would come home and the festivities would start

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Simple negotiation

[09:01] Aspen Diamond: Smiling at Vanni with the understanding

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir, let's go to Beth now, please

[09:01] Beth Oi: Physical Sadism or Masochism does not need sexual pleasure as the end result.  For some of us, S/m is pain for pains sake.  As a masochist, i take great pleasure in suffering for another person. It is a different level of enjoyment.  It is a need on both sides.  A craving.   It CAN be a gateway to submission or a spiritual experience.  But for me, it's power exchange in its purest form.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: A lot of people don't get how at the First Life club, we can do all this S/M stuff and NOT have sex.  It's not about sex, at least there and then.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: I'm sure people go home and get freaky

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: That line about "pain for pain's sake' is 100% spot on, Beth

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: We'll talk more about the masochistic tendency next week, but yes, 100% agreed

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: CC, you have a comment please!

[09:05] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I ove topping but I'm am no sadist. When I top someone, it's out of feelings of empathy. I love doing to people what love done to me. Putting somone on a cross and flogging the living daylights out of them is such an adrenaline high but not only because I empathize with the person I'm beating.

On the subject of checking in, like Vanni, I do like changing position but also, looking at them up close, checking the color of their skin in the face, the facial muscle tone. Their facial muscles will be droopy with a vacant stare. Have them talk to you.  People suffering severe trauma show flat affect along with their vocalizing in a flat monotone. The same happens with people in BDSM. In this case, not only stroking the but also talking them back into their body, get them to pay attention to the feeling of the surface they are sitting or resting, the feel of retrains, what s going on inside of their body. So much of this could be something beyond sub space and more disassociation.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: In a scene where I am topping, if the person looks dazed I'll snap my fingers in front of their face a couple times, if I get minimal or no response, I drop down to just sensation touching, no further hitting

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: They're already in neurotransmitter la-la land

[09:06] Candice Svenska nods

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: You get the mental aspect well, CC!

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: I always appreciate your comments here

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Go back to Master Ballard, please

[09:08] Ballard grins, and sits back.  He stretches like a cat on a warm rock.  "Penetration."  he says the word with a profundity, as one may utter a holy word.  "This is where each of us has our own needs and desires.  To penetrate a woman, with my cock or something else, is a fetish for me (I cannot achieve true gratification without it).  The bondage and sadism that leads to that ultimate moment is, for me, the foreplay.  I am well aware that sadism is an end unto itself for many people, and sex is an option, or even an annoyance.  As part of any negotiation I try to make clear my needs, so everyone is on the same page." 

tldr:  In summary, clarity of needs/wants before a start is very important. #

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: And that's totally cool, Sir!

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: I mean, people are into some really outlandish foodplay...as long as it's consensual, there's understanding, and they like it, go for it!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank you Sir!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Aspen, you close us out and then I have a final comment

[09:11] Aspen Diamond: That is right Master Ballard, it is the gate way as Beth said. It all depends on the two in the scene with words or non. Sex or no Sex. It is all in the boundaries. It depends on the relationship you have with the Dom/ or sub. If you have played together you know how far you can push for both of your cravings to get over that craving. OMG it is the touch that is being the reward Master Ballard , that is the reward of what your comment said. Thank you Vanni

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli nods a lot

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Well said!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent comments!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I'd just like to say one quick thing

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: If Sadism is not Y/your thing, that is 100% cool.  Not everyone is a sadist, or a masochist.

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Some people like the beauty of the D/s relationship and would find it really unwelcome to bring S/M into the picture

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: We always need to do what's right and best for us

[09:14] Candice Svenska exactly

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: So go forth and do what is right!

[09:14] Mali Kaah silently thanks the gods for that..

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all very much for attending today!

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And please remember to throw a bit of linden love on the tip jar on the bar to keep our sadistic home going :P