"Masochism": March 21, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: I have updated the page with all the discussions we have had since Jan 3

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: And I am also working on an archive of past discussions

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: I have some exposition, but Master Laz always gets priority.  Please go ahead when ready, Master.

[08:12] Laz: Vanni, would you please create a notecard about the discussion including the blog url to give out in the poster outside?

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Master!

[08:12] Laz: thank you

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli notes that in the big file of stuff to do

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: ok so I have some exposition, as is my wont, before we move forward

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism is defined by Mirriam-Webster as "the derivation of sexual gratification from being subjected to physical pain or humiliation by oneself or another person. Pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering"

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: A bit of history:  The term "masochism" was coined by Austrian psychologist Richard von Krafft-Ebing, He took the term from a literary acquaintance of his, Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, an Austrian writer of utopic and more lurid essays, with Krafft-Ebing claiming that Sacher-Masoch often made use of what he termed the "perversion" of masochism in his writing, so he used Sacher-Masoch's name to create the term "masochism."

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: As you might imagine, Sacher-Masoch was less then enthused about this, but the term stuck.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism in the BDSM variety has to be differentiated from sexual masochism disorder, which is a psychiatric problem that refers to “recurrent and intense sexual arousal from the act of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer, as manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors” ONLY if these urges are causing some kind of functional impairment in social, occupational or other areas of one's life.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism is not a strange desire for pain in all places and all times (were it, it would fit into the definition of sexual masochism disorder.) A masochist, for example, doesn't like a toothache or ask an oral surgeon to do dental surgery minus anesthesia so they can feel pain. They don't go around banging their heads into walls to feel some kind of dangerous "head rush." The pain is a kink, not a mental disorder.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Further, masochists are not dysfunctional in terms of their day to day life. They don't expect others to provide pain, or look for a way to get someone to humiliate them anywhere and everywhere.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Masochism is not a single thing -- it is a continuum, and what one masochist might like, another might find highly distasteful for themselves....or, potentially, nowhere near what they need to feel that "kick" that comes with some form of masochism. Masochism is an umbrella term, not one thing.  Some masochists simply like humiliation, while others like some pretty intense applications of pain.  Everyone is different.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: One last thing, and then we will take comments and questions.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: I would like to keep discussion of *humiliation* to next week please, and stick this week to the physical aspects of masochism.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: As humiliation really needs a whole period to itself.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: And I am working on a new in depth workshop along with Dijana on it, so I'd like to give it its own day so we can work off those notes.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli looks at the list of things to do, back at Master Laz, and grins.

[08:18] Laz: :-)

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: So with that, let's go!  What do Y/you think about masochism?  Are you a masochist?  Are you a sadist that likes masochists?  What's the kink here?

[08:20] Laz: C

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Master Laz, we will start with You please!

[08:20] Laz: Yes, I am a sadist. Yes, I like masochists, a lot...

[08:21] Laz: It is certainly a kink in me and I am amazed and pleased that masochist exist in balance...

[08:22] Laz: As a ethical sadist, only a masochist can really soothe that itch. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Oooo....someone should write that book, Master, "The Ethical Sadist."

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli doesn't need my list growing though...

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You for that comment, Master Laz!

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Sir Jason please!

[08:23] Sir Jason Oi: I personally love masochists as they crave the sadism that I love to give. The joy/terror on their faces as I dole out the pain is simply exquisite. #

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: And would You say, Sir, that the rush of getting that person into subspace at Your hands is like stepping back and admiring a work of art that's been finished? *grins*

[08:24] Sir Jason Oi: Oh yes indeed

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli grins bigger

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You for that comment, Sir!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Master Ballard who has a question...You have the floor, Master Ballard!

[08:25] Ballard: I am disappointed that my two masochists are absent this morning.  I will ask about the desire to mirror a scene. I know many people will mirror in order to get the stimulation.  Without mirroring, can a masochist still get gratification?  Can one still mentally get the rush?  Or is the RL physical side an absolute must?  This is about SL vs RL, and the rush being felt.  Just a general question.#

[08:26] Ballard: ((Also, I am not a sadist.  Any submissive saying otherwise I will give them a sound thrashing to prove it!))

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: If anyone would like to answer Master Ballard's question, please go ahead, no C is necessary

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: We'd especially like to hear from any S-Type that likes scenes here in SL that doll out pain

[08:28] Ballard: One of my girls will administer swats to herself RL, as I do them to her min SL

[08:28] Ballard: She will 'mirror' what is done in SL, so she can feel it

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli always thinks of that scene in "Secretary" where Lee is hitting herself with the hairbrush and it's just not the same....

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: But when done in conjunction with one's Top/Dominant, it can work quite well!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Does anyone else have a reply or a comment on Master Ballard's question about SL only S/M play?

[08:30] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: As I said last week, I'm not a sadist but I love flogging and spanking others. My enjoyment in inflicting pain comes from empathy instead of sadism. Doing unto others what I love having done to me.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: what about in SL, CC?

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: Do it think it works here "only" as it would in First Life?

[08:31] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Same, impact play in sl has limited appeal to me because it hard to physically flog them

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: but you just swing...and watch red appear...and swing more...and hear a moan..and...*fans myself* excuse me

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Ahem.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Master Laz, do you have a comment related to Master Ballard's question?

[08:32] Laz: I really enjoy it when the sub mirrors where I can hear it. The sound of the thwack and the umphs and whimpers. So mirroring with sound is very effective I think for S/M. Even though they are delivering it themselves, I am able to direct the intensity by sound and helps to give the masochist some of the proper effect. I hope it does anyway. It would be nice to hear from m types about that. #

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: I agree, Master, that if a scene will include mirroring, voice/sound really helps it, if that's the thing both (or more) are into.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: To answer Your question from my experience, Master Ballard, I think that play strictly in SL, with no mirroring, is having a similar but different effect than with.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: I'm of the mind that what is normally getting a sub into subspace is endorphins, which come from the play, and that's what gets the sub to really want to be beat on or however it works for them.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Like I mentioned my student last week who had to go get beat at the club to "calm down and focus" so she could study.

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway what goes on here can certainly create a neurotransmitter response, but I think it is different than what one experiences in a club getting physically hit on.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: I actually talked to my neuroscience colleague, as she knows I'm a kinkster (it's nice to be open...and tenured!)

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: And she didn't think that the effect would be the same, but there would be something that would indeed happen as the brain process the scene.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: So that's a long winded way to say, yes, it can work very well if it just stays in SL, but it's different.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Aspen please

[08:39] Skye Cloud is offline.

[08:39] Peaches Svenska: q

[08:39] Aspen Diamond: Thank You Vanni,

I know that I have a little of masochist that was brought out last week when I heard Master Ballard explanations. I love little pain and turn it into pleasure. The pain part I  could suffer for my Master and then that makes me a masochist. I do also think no matter what kind of Dom you are everyone has that little Sidist in them. Master Laz is right about being balance. So with me I guess I am some what a masochist that does crave that pain to pleasure and see that i meet my Master's  needs. It is like being spanked or flogged to get that pain out and relax with it.  

C @ Master Ballard

I do understand giving myself spanks in real also at Masters pleasure. I also spank my breast and pull my nipples as Master writes what he wants from me to feel at the time.

 I feel everything being done to me ON Line as I truly feel in Real. I do mirror when I am with a Master in SL. As he hears me moaning and hearing the swats when I give them to myself. I do love voice for you can hear what Master is

[08:39] Aspen Diamond:  thinking and doing to my body.  Vanni I wish I had that Master to spank or flog me to calm down and focus.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli grins at Aspen  "All well said!"

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Tann, You are up please!

[08:41] Tann Stormhaven: I am not fully awake but this is what worked it's way into my brain from this discussion.

She loved in a dark way, her twisted soul a thorn bush of experience and emotion. To feel that love returned she would follow strange winding paths in the underbrush of her subconscious, often becoming lost. It was during these times that she sought some form of guidance, to find that only pain set her free and allowed her peace from the ever turbulent existence. Being gnashed and torn by the thorns granted her freedom, release, a reason. Those things were beyond simple physical sensation and carried her into a world of harmony. Yet always the lashes would end, the fire would cease to burn and once again she would be left to wander lost in a labyrinthine landscape of confusion and hope that perhaps she would find the answer to the riddle of herself, if even only for a moment, again.

In response to Lord Ballard: I believe that there are two components to masochism, the "idea" of pain and the "reality" of pain. IF

[08:41] Tann Stormhaven:  someone is a mental masochist the idea of pain may be far more enticing than the reality of pain. I also believe this can occur conversely. Mirroring is something that works for some but not for others. I think that one needs to keep in mind that SL and RL are two very different things and trying to make SL "work like RL" can lead to problems for  number of reasons that someone more alert might be able to explain better than I can at the moment.#

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli loved that piece of prose, "Did You write that Miss?"

[08:42] Tann Stormhaven: Yes

[08:42] Tann Stormhaven: just now

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli nominates Miss Tann for some major award in writing

[08:43] Brianne applause

[08:43] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods

[08:43] Tann Stormhaven smiles "thank you."

[08:43] Lisa Summerland: That was deeply lovely Tann, thank you

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: As for Your second comment, Miss, 100% agreed, any mirroring needs to be thought on and negotiated

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: And it will work for some better than others.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Plus there are issues of privacy that need to be taken into consideration.  Can the bottom/sub do that?

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Let's see, we are back to Master Ballard

[08:44] Ballard: Tann, thank you for that.

[08:44] Tann Stormhaven: My pleasure Ballard

[08:46] Ballard: I did

[08:46] Ballard: I love this topic.  CC your comment was a great perspective.  By giving pain you feel a service gratification.  I tend to ask questions more than try to deliver wisdom on such a topic. 

For myself, the bondage and control are essential aspects of the scene.  To have a woman bound, helpless, and at my mercy, then strip, flog, and ultimately take her body for my pleasure, is so freaking hot!  The pain is only one part of the whole.  The  infliction of pain is a statement of my power over her.  After all, if I can bind her and whip her then she is truly at my mercy.

Does a masochist see it that way?  Is the control surrender and helpless feeling a key requirement?  I can  only imagine this is highly  individual.  #

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli looks around to see a lot of squirming and wonders if ants have invaded again.....makes a note to call the exterminator.

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: I think, Master Ballard, that each bottom/sub comes to masochism differently.  But at the heart is the giving over of control.

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: The bottom knows that the Top *could* inflict some real serious damage on them.  But the handing over of trust is key, and the physical sensation rides on that.

[08:49] Brianne wonders if rope and riding crop is on Svenska family crest

[08:50] Ballard: It damn well ought to be

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I mean, I bet my fellow S-Types here that have ever done RL play know that when one is bound, that feeling that wells up from deep in the stomach, saying "This person could seriously beat the crap out of me and send me to the hospital" is real...and that's the thrill of it...the handing of that control in a moment of trust.

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: You mentally *know* they're not going to

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: but damn....the feeling is so intense

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I've ever had that happen of course, I'm a good girl.

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: ahem

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Ballard!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason do You have a comment?

[08:51] Sir Jason Oi: I do

[08:51] Sir Jason Oi: I can't imagine that play in SL could possibly have the same effect as RL play does when talking about the physical play (speaking from someone that has primarily played in RL over the last 29 years), mental and emotional are totally different and can be just as rewarding done in SL or RL, although a very active imagination can create close to the same effects chemically in the brain (I think). Mirroring can be fun when adding voice but cam is even more intense where you can see them wince in pain under the direction you give. To what Tann said yes you have to take safety into account when playing long distance, being responsible in your play is of utmost importance and not doing things that will potentially cause undue harm like edge play. #

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli cheers!  \o/

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: All so well said, Sir!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: This will be very helpful on the webpage as Y/you are all coming up with very useful, good material.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: and 100% agreement on that Sir.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli writes that down in notes for "The Ethical Sadist..."

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir...Peaches, you have a question please.

[08:54] Peaches Svenska: I struggle, here in Xaara, with feelings of inadequacy because I am so NOT a masochist. My greatest disappointment is to the Master's in my life that love giving a good lashing..and of course, I struggle because I know how much Master Laz loves the masochist. In SL, I am unable to 'react' via emoting, to things I have not experienced in RL..I suppose, if I were an actress, I could indeed..separating it compartmentally in my mind, but this is a lifestyle sim so I try to be absolutely as real as possible. I was viciously beaten by my mother when I was a child so the only experience I have to draw on is my history..I run from pain. I'm a lover not a fighter. I wish I could enjoy it for the sake of those Master's I admire here and desire to please..but in this area, I lack sorely. Do you, Vanni, think I am repulsed due to my childhood?#

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, first of all, you are NOT any kind of failure, Peaches.

[08:55] Tann Stormhaven: ^

[08:55] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods to Peaches

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: You are a smart, wonderful woman who brings joy to your Master and all of us.

[08:55] Ballard: I have never felt Peaches to be in ANY way less because she is not into pain.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed 100% Master Ballard!

[08:55] Becky Summerland: Peaches, you have so many other aspects to yourself to offer, don,t put yourself down, please, you are a gem ♥ ((sorry for speaking out of turn, it had to come out))

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Peaches, remember, everyone is different.  there are lots of people who are not masochistic at all, and they are fantastic submissives in many different areas.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: So be a joy in who YOU are.

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: and finally, yes past trauma can affect our lives today in many ways.

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Had I gone to therapy for a few years to overcome past hurt my mom did to me emotionally, I would be a very different person

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: and prob not safe for BDSM play.

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: ♥ you Peaches! :)

[08:57] Becky Summerland: I love you as you are ma chérie ♥

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Jason You have a comment for Peaches, go ahead please.

[08:57] -ღ Sultry ღ-: Peaches ♥

[08:57] Sir Jason Oi: Submission does not have to equal masochism submission is submission to surrender yourself to the will and authority of another individual or group. Masochism is a love of pain and is not synonymous with submission. #

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: 100% spot on Sir!

[08:57] Tann Stormhaven: ^

[08:58] Becky Summerland: ♥

[08:58] Lisa Summerland: Yes

[08:58] Aspen Diamond: I like that sir Jason

[08:58] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell nods

[08:58] -ღ Sultry ღ- nods in agreement to Sir Jason

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli blows Peaches a big kiss

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you for that Peaches.

[08:59] Becky Summerland: C@ Peaches

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Especially for your willingness to be vulnerable and let us support you.  What a great community!

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Miss Becky, please, then we will move on

[09:00] Becky Summerland: the goals we set for ourselves very often define how we perceive ourselves, look at the stories of Dave Mustaine and Pete Best... and if you wish, I can resume them for you in IM later ♥ Peaches, stand proud for who you are, not who the others are... you add value to Xaara and for that, I care and value you ♥

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: \o/

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You Miss Becky!

[09:00] Peaches Svenska wiped away the tears and tried hard to absorb each persons assurances. "thank you all"

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli smiles

[09:01] Becky Summerland: ♥

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: This is why I'd never leave Xaara

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: We are *real* here

[09:01] Lisa Summerland: indeed

[09:01] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Nods to Miss Becky, (love the sound of that!)

[09:01] -ღ Sultry ღ- wipes a tear away as she feels as Peaches does

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli wipes my own tear away too

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Master Laz, You have a question please?

[09:01] Laz: First in response to Peaches. Please be aware, that cubbie is also very much not a masochist, and I love her very much.. - Vanni, from researching the definition, can you answer this? Is a submissive who endures pain purely for the sake of pleasing their dominant a masochist. Also is a submissive who seeks catharsis through pain also a masochist? #

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: For #1, Master, I would say no, and that's my opinion on the matter.  I think a person that does anything simply for the sake of a person, gaining no enjoyment from that *act* is more enjoying the fact they are *serving* their Dominant.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: So if I had a Master or Mistress who wanted to whip me, and I am not into being whipped, but I do it for *them*, I'm serving, but I'm getting nothing for myself in that.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: For #2, Master, I would say "sort of."  There is a kind of masochism known as "religious masochism" with people like St. Theresa of Avila who was known to beat herself to nearly passing out to atone for sin.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: But she wasn't enjoying the pain (at least as she wrote it), but the fact she was atoning for sin, giving her body to Christ, so to speak.

[09:05] Sir Jason Oi: I would simply suggest trusted play partners for things that your partner(s) are not into.

[09:06] Lisa Summerland: yes an excellent recommendation

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Christians believe that Christ died for sins, but I don't think they believe he was "enjoying" the whole thing...he was doing the will of his Father.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: So I hope that answers the questions, Master?

[09:06] Laz: I wonder if others agree?

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Any other comments on Master Laz's questions?

[09:07] Lisa Summerland: I agree with Vanni's last statement

[09:07] Becky Summerland: it makes sense to me, even if I am right now unable to expand on it, it certainly is giving me something to ponder in my meditations

[09:07] Laz: :-)

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Laz!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: ok we have a few more comments so we'll move on

[09:08] Sir Jason Oi: Catharsis is a need and the act of getting there is what is needed for the end result

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, you are up again please.

[09:08] Aspen Diamond: Thank you

Yes real pain giving by a Dom in a dungeon is real. I have had knives done on me also for a Dom. The pain is real. It does so much to you for that release deepening on that Dom and you and your trust between you two. By talking and negotiations he would know how far to push you in real to really feel that pain.

To Master Ballard

I do have to be tied up and have that Dom have the essential aspect of the scene. Being at the Dom mercy and strip of everything and not hiding with being very opened. Master Ballard it is also the sub looking at Master and his face in pleasure. Yes you are right it is very hot also for the sub.

Vanni? You are right with the feeling deep into your stomach of how this Dom would hurt you and like you stated it is the thrill of knowing that he has you in his hands and can do what ever to your body. 

It still comes down to trust. There are good masochism around and you just have to find the Real ones and not the Fake ones.

to Master Laz about Christ

What ever you believe

[09:08] Aspen Diamond:  in how you look at the trinity. He did have his father to answer too. 

A little pain to me is pleasure. I am learning to be me. With all of the help of this wonderful community here at Xaara I am so happy being a part of it. Thank you to all of you.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Great comments there Aspen!  You give this a lot of thought and we appreciate that! :)

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Well said!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: CC you are up with your CComment!

[09:10] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Maybe we should mention the addictive nature of masochism when it's not kept in check. As I've mentioned here before, I'm helping a friend write her memoir of growing up in a family of sex workers. We have discussed why it is that she seeks more and more extremes. What used to get  her off before doesn't work anymore so that she seeks more extremes to the point that she seriously feels she has not limits and could be dead tomorrow from her addiction.

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Right, that's Masochistic Personality Disorder, which is not BDSM Masochism.  You know that, CC, but I want that to be clear in the minds of A/all.

[09:11] Laz: Thanks for pointing that out, Vanni

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli beams at Master Laz

[09:13] Becky Summerland: addiction is always a possibility, I do have an addiction to pain, and my tattoo artist knows it... we've talked about it and over the years, we became good friends, it why, sometimes, I'll visit her, and we'll more concentrate on talking than 'drawing'... and I kinda forgot my point, but, I'm sure it had to do with communications and being aware of our partners in 'play' ;) #

[09:13] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: yes and I make that distinction in the book

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli grins at Miss Becky "Thank You!"

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And thank you CC, it's always important to remember the clinical aspects of what we do.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Well said

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Master Ballard You are up again please!

[09:14] Ballard: .

To state the well known, the four horsemen of BDSM are often paired as:

BD - Bondage and Disciple.  This is where Peaches and I land together.  She enjoys my control, and being regimented.  We have rituals and rules.  I tell her how to dress and wear her hair.

SM - Sadism and Masochism.  This is a different part of the cube.  I am able to enjoy this as well, but still as a part of my kinky whole.

All are integrated, but each has its own place and part to play in the  life.  No one thing is superior, stronger, or better.  The key is kink matching for couples or play partners, and an open mind to learn and grow.  Be honest with yourself about yourself, and it all really does get easier.  #

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!  100% Master!

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: So well said, thank You!

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: We've had some great comments and talk today.  Two more.

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Dae, love, you are up!

[09:15] Daelenie McMillan: Thank you  :)

[09:15] Daelenie McMillan: I am in the same boat with Peaches, I am just not that into getting hurt, I break out in pain. Now while a Sadists may enjoy that (me being in pain) I don't :P but I can take a bit of spanking and some flogging if my Dominant enjoys it. I get a a feeling of pride that I can do that for Him/Her. I am just not into the heavier pain.  There are probably many submissives in this category. It does not make us less submissive or inferrior to someone that likes the pain, It just makes us different.

I may have more to say next week, but that's next week.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Right!

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Dae and reinforces the fact that not all submissives are or need to be masochists

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Sir Jason, then we will end with Master Laz's comment after your reply to Master Ballard

[09:18] Sir Jason Oi: There are actually 6 "horsemen", the acronym was shortened almost before it came out originally it was BDDSSM but that looked ugly so became BDSM Bondage, Discipline Domination Submission Sadism Masochism.. BDSM was first coined in 1993 before that it was simply SM or S&M. Sorry I'm a nearly lifelong student of the history of the Lifestyle. #

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, correct Sir.

[09:19] Becky Summerland: ♥

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Books on the subject form the 70s and 80s talk about S/M.

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Our lifestyle evolves :)

[09:19] Sir Jason Oi: Yeah

[09:19] Now playing: Queens of the Stone Age - I Never Came

[09:20] Ballard: Yes, and  now it has morphed even more.  D/s is what we are, and BDSM is what we do

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: That was probably because it was seen as a disorder by many people really.

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thank You!

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Master Laz, You have the final word for today! :)

[09:20] Sir Jason Oi: Thankfully they removed sadism and masochism from the current DSM

[09:20] Laz: In regards to the MPD mentioned earlier. There was a sub here once who was very much a masochist and in a relationship 24/7 with a dominant. A co-dependency developed around her masochism. It got more and more extreme to the point where the dominant released her because he feared he would soon do her serious harm. This demonstrates that it is important for both parties to be aware of excesses. #

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: Indeed Master!

[09:21] Becky Summerland: ♥

[09:21] Ballard: Very true Laz

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: She may have been manifesting Masochistic Personality Disorder, Master.

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: When a person has MPD, they cannot safely do ANY S/M activity, they need to get therapy.

[09:22] Laz: exactly what it was

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: and I don't say that as a slam, but as truth.,

[09:22] Becky Summerland: yes

[09:22] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell nods to Sir Laz, mentioning that the the distinctions can become blurred.

[09:22] Aspen Diamond: Very true Master Laz I agree full heartedly. Thank you smiling

[09:22] Sir Jason Oi: Most people benefit from therapy anyways

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: I did!

[09:23] Becky Summerland: very true!

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Seriously, I do not think I could do this lifestyle safely had I not

[09:23] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell is still in therapy

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: I had a great deal of Italian Catholic guilt drilled into me by a well meaning but abusive mother

[09:23] Aspen Diamond: So did I

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: And getting free of that meant I could do this very safely now and enjoy it

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: mwahahahahaha

[09:24] Becky Summerland: many did have 'horror' stories, some decided to heal, others, they live in their darkness, perpetuating it

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all so much for participating in our discussion today, it was really amazing and shows the high caliber of persons we have here.

[09:24] flo: thank you Vanni and E/everyone for this awesome meeting!

[09:24] Ballard: Vanni, I adjust my work schedule to make this talk every Sunday.  I know that both Candice and Rouge were very excited about being here today.  Thank you for doing this.

[09:24] Aspen Diamond: Therapy helped me also. Years back and that is why I am in this lifestyle.

[09:24] AƐRIOƝ: smiles this was a fantastic discussion I definite plan to come every Sunday.

[09:25] Sir Jason Oi: Thank you all for the discussion I hope everyone learned something. Please enjoy the rest of your day. If anyone would like to friend me I am agreeable.

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: I appreciate Your attendance every week, Master Ballard.

[09:25] Laz: Thank you Vanni. Excellent job. :-)

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master!

[09:25] Lisa Summerland: Vanni, thank you for one of the very best Koffee discussions I have enjoyed. And thank you all for each of your comments and participation. I am proud and so deeply appreciative of our Xaara Community support to and for each other.