"Subs and Slaves" -- May 8, 2022

 

[15:12] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[15:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[15:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[15:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We continue our discussion of the D/s part of the BDSM acronym today by poking a topic that causes endless bickering in the BDSM world....the differences between "subs" and "slaves"

[15:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If you ask ten different modern witches what a "witch" really is, you get ten different answers.  Same with this discussion...ask ten different BDSM enthusiasts what the real difference between a "sub" and a "slave" is, and you'll get a bevy of replies.

[15:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not giving my view until the end, maybe.  But I will ask that our august assembly give not only their view of these differences, but why a person might choose one or the other to express their submission.

[15:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm also very interested in hear from our Dominants about what attracts them to one type or the other...is the type of person expressing submission congruent with the level of domination a Dominant person wants to express?

[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In other words:  what makes a sub vs slave tick, and why are You attracted to some level of submission in a person?

[15:19] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I hope that all makes sense, I've been out of bed about 30 minutes lol

[15:20] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): perfectly

[15:20] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so floor is open, go ahead!

[15:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok Master Ballard, go ahead whenever you are ready!

[15:24] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Sorry Vanni, I didn't realize that you are done.  To me the difference between a slave, a submissive, or one girl I had who was neither, (she was a slut), the differences are individual, and I am not able to sit here and write out a specific definition.  What lies in the heart is what is discovered, and then go forward from that.  The name we give is really never going to be perfect.

[15:24] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): #

[15:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree Master Ballard, what is a 'slave' to one person might be totally foreign to another who uses the same moniker.

[15:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a follow up, Master, You have had a bevy of different s-types in Your house.  Would You say each one provides a different aspect of D/s to You and appeals to different drives in You?

[15:27] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): oh hell yes.

[15:27] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I take pride in their differences.  You will never fgind 3 more diofferent people.

[15:27] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   smiles

[15:27] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): They all share a keen intellect, and quirks of their own

[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very cool!

[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You for starting us off Master!

[15:28] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Sapiosexual

[15:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

[15:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): grins

[15:29] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Continuing in the Svenska Household, we move to Peaches please!

 [15:29] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko):  smiled at Vanni. "Thank you, love. Those of you who know me, know that I came here from Gor. Gor was my introduction to discovering my submissive nature and felt very comfortable. But, in Gor, as I suspect is the case in a real life M/s relationship, a slave has no rights of refusal, by their own decision and submission.

[15:30] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): YAY

[15:30] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): hugs her Mistress

[15:30] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): smiles proudly

[15:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's lovely :)

[15:31] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a very common term we hear, "right of refusal" and I'll be interested to hear how others interpret it.

[15:32] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): may I vanni?

[15:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead if you have a follow up

[15:33] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): as long as my limits are not crossed, I will obey pretty much any Dominant.Only if it crosses my limits, I dont feel I have the right to refuse

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is why I appreciate having these discussions, so everyone's take can be heard and compared and we can all grow from them

[15:34] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): i meant to say unless it crosses my limits i dont feel i have the right to refuse

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent, thank you Peaches! ♥

[15:34] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): now the cup is full lol

[15:35] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Miss Nikki next, please

[15:35] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress): As open poly, "slave" doesn't work for me. It implies single / sole ownership or group ownership. I don't want to own, I wish willing submission,  Slave is a level of restriction I don't feel I need or want. I'm not so arrogant as to believe I can be all things to someone. #

[15:35] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): nods thoughtfully

[15:36] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh that's very interesting, Miss, how You tied the poly lifestyle to ownership and submission!

[15:36] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress): Poly is almost antithesis to ownershi#

[15:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You for that interesting comment, Miss! :)

[15:37] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move on to Sir RJ next, please

 [15:38] RJ (LaughingBoy76 Resident): The Oxford dictionary makes the distinction between sub and slave fairly distinct:

[15:38] RJ (LaughingBoy76 Resident): #

[15:38] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Ah, the good old days

[15:39] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): waves Keli to his side

[15:39] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): Still my days

[15:40] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do think dictionary definitions can help, Sir, but one one hand, lots of subs will say they are "owned" by their Dominant body and soul, and will also say they aren't particularly sheeplike *grins*  And of course, around the world, slavery is illegal so it's more a term we use than an actual legal status.

[15:40] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress): Labels tend to be confining, relationships are complex and evolving. We use labels for conveniece#

[15:41] RJ (LaughingBoy76 Resident): I agree Vanni hence the contextual differences I mentioned of which I'm sure there are many

[15:42] Alon Ryland (prodrvr Resident): I’d say there is a fair amount of disagreement on this topic. My opinion is that since there is no single recognized definition, the only thing that matters is how you choose to define it in your relationship and making sure that all parties are using that same definition.

[15:42] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress): nods

[15:42] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident):  smiles at Keli, touching her shoulder

[15:42] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good comment, thank You Sir RJ :)

[15:42] RJ (LaughingBoy76 Resident): My pleasure

[15:43] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): yes..in bdsm..a person chooses, with their own free will to be a slave to their owner, not the same as illegal slavery

[15:43] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees

[15:43] Wieke Audeburgh (Wieke Audeburgh):  nods

[15:44] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok let's move on to Rouge who assures me she has a book for us .. go ahead smexy!

[15:44] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

[15:44] Ballard (Ballard Svenska):  ducks

[15:44] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): ok this needs to be posted in 2 parts XD

[15:44] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko):  waved her arm.."and the slave speaks!

[15:44] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

[15:44] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): Thanks Vanni,

[15:44] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  me, more so having lived by them for nearly 25 years and counting. yes, there are and will be some who are totally against this way of thinking, who may and have tried to shoot me down for such, trying to say " im wrong" but am i? really? whos to say what works for me, will work for another. nothing and no one. each M/s or D/s dynamic is as individual as those who are involved in them. be it a one on one, or a head of house with multiple folk in the same house. be it at the same level, or in a collar.

[15:44] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  power exchange relationship. This makes them different from enslaved and trafficked people.

[15:45] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): Not only does it help keep a girl out of trouble, but it also aids in keeping her grounded, more so in her Owners absence.

[15:45] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  to get by on a day to day basis, and so this was and is the perfect role for myself. to serve is to life. its like the very essence of life for me, if im unable to serve in any aspect, I wither away, I falter, lose my way on things meant to do, and that kills me. a slave needs to be allowed to serve, and to deny him or her that burning need, is like cutting off a hand! that may sound extreme, but its how I see and more over FEEL it.

[15:47] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident):  smiles at the well written info :)

[15:47] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  hands Rouge her Pulitzer Prize

[15:48] Ballard (Ballard Svenska):  smiles proudly

[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That was long but utterly worth it, from a person who lives this entire live day to day, body and soul.

[15:48] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): that was the shortened version lol

[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

[15:48] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[15:48] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2 Resident): claps

[15:48] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): get a room...and a blog! :P

[15:49] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Brianne, go ahead with your question...Rouge, your answer has to be under 10,000 words please :P

[15:49] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): =P

[15:49] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Rouge, it seems that owning a slave such as you requires a lot of commitment.  So many choices to make for you and directions to give.  That must be attractive to you, to know that you have such deep involvement in you life, your existence.

 

[15:49] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

[15:49] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

[15:49] Ballard (Ballard Svenska):  chuckles.

[15:50] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I'm a bossy old fart.  I love telling my girls what to wear

[15:50] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): Q to Rouge

[15:50] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

[15:51] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): C to Rouge

[15:51] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): oh it does! sure, like I said, I may not live with my rl Owners, but They still have a lot of control over myself. even my finances They keep an eye on, as have had a few bad things happen in that regard, so They do it to make sure im safe, as well as to know whats happening with Theur property. as much as it seems a lot, to me, it doesn't seem that way, given I do live it 24/7. to someone new looking in from outside, they probably be like what the hell going on here

[15:52] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Callie and then we move on as we have a bunch of people in the queue

[15:52] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): You mentioned roleplaying as a submissive. Are you suggestion that one could roleplay being a slave as a submissive to see if they like it?

[15:52] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok fine and Peaches but then we move on lol

[15:52] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Thanks Rouge!

[15:53] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): you said: " giving up complete control of your life to another is what you want. If not, you may want to consider simply role-playing as a submissive." Did you mean to use the word submissive or did you mean slave..because I dont rp being a submissive..I emote, sharing my emotions etc, but i'm not rping being a submissive

[15:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seems both of those questions were on the same topic

[15:53] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so go ahead please Rouge

[15:54] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): thats one way to try it. to dip ones toe in the waters so to speak. trying the role of a slave here in sl is way safer than trying it in real life. yes, I jumped in both feet, but with the situatoin I was living in at the time, many years ago, and well before my current Owners, I felt like whats the worst that coudl happen.

[15:55] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): I know Mistress You don't rp it. that may have been misunderstood. like I said to Callie, that was more aimed to those who arent sure which path they are wishing to pursue in their D/s or M/s lives. again, some, as W/we all know purely partake in the lifestyle in the bedroom, and are more kinksters than anything else. hence why again sued the term role playing it.

 [15:55] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): thanks love

[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I also think it's the way we use the term "role play" in SL, which usually doesn't mean "act something out that you don't really do"

[15:56] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's more "take the role on and be it and do it"

[15:56] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods

[15:56] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): mhmm. you're better with words than I am Vanni lol

[15:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have a degree in Bullshit, that's why they hired me at the college :P

[15:57] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): lol

[15:57] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ♫ rimshot ♫

[15:57] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

[15:57] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): California, go figure

[15:57] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident):  giggles

[15:57] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

[15:57] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): rouge, thank you for all that, very insightful and as we see, your comments could spur a whole discussion by themselves :P

[15:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): however we must move on to others waiting, thanks again!

[15:58] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): welcome, and sorry again for that lengthy post

[15:58] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Pure, you are up please

[15:58] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Thank you Vanni

[15:58] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): For me, the term slave = Gor. With regard to Xaara, I have always felt that the term "Community Slave" demonstrates the submissive's dedication TO THE COMMUNITY, and whether or not she/he is held by a Master. Maybe I am wrong to think that...

[15:58] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Master Lngo is very open and very flexible with me. BUT I dont feel I have the right to refuse, I give myself NO RIGHT to refuse. It is not for me a question of being a slave. It's a matter of dedication. Maitre and me do not live under the same roof RL, but my devotion, my love for my Master is far beyond SL. Done

[15:59] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  smiles

[15:59] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[15:59] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Pats Pure on the head

 [15:59] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): woot!

[15:59] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Turn head to look her Master with adoration

[16:00] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  hates the very idea of refusing service. feels her skin crawling just thinking about it

[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as far as the owned Community Slave, I feel the Dominant in question agrees to share their charge with the community, as long as her limits are maintained and the owner's rules and needs come first.

[16:00] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): yes

[16:00] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (or his, excuse me....community slaves are many genders) :)

[16:00] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): exactly.

[16:00] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): nods

[16:01] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): I needed a community slave to cut my grass this morning :)

[16:01] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

[16:01] Wieke Audeburgh (Wieke Audeburgh): lol

[16:01] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I could use one to vacuum around here

[16:01] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): I hold a talk / ws on community slaves every couple months. gives lots of useful information

[16:01] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): damn RL TP button dont work yet...Sorry my Master

[16:01] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  rolls eyes

[16:01] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): of course I am a community slave to my cats, but that's a different discussion

[16:02] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Hahahah Master Lngo

[16:02] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

[16:02] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

[16:02] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Cat owners are privately owned slaves

[16:02] Dee Wolfe  (Diana Wolfe):  nods to Master Ballard

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): between the lot of them I have a lot of Dominants :P

[16:02] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): n oone told loki then, my Master lol

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you Pure, excellent comment!

 [16:02] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): thank you Vanni

[16:02] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): WE move to smexy Brianne with a question

[16:02] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): thank you, Smexy!

[16:03] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Last time I pestered a witch for answers, I got turned into a newt! 

[16:03] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Vanni we are slaves to our animals and cats know that they are the Masters/Mistress of our lives.

[16:03] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): ♫ rimshot ♫

[16:03] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

[16:04] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone can answer, no need to put in a C..in fact, don't please

[16:04] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): it does! high protocol and being a slave do go hand in hand.

[16:04] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

[16:04] Andy Rocker (Andyrocker Resident): nods

[16:04] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Bri -  in my play room, I treat sall 'guests' as I might treat a slave.  High protocol does not mean slave, it is structure.

[16:04] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods

[16:04] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): nods to Master Ballarad

[16:04] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): yes my Master

[16:05] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Ballard*

[16:05] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): tpe

[16:05] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have talked about my friend who runs a Starbucks and is a RL 24/7 slave to her Master.  They don't have a lot of day to day high protocol, she just does everything and even has to wait until he says "you can sit on the couch" to sit there.  But she's very happy with the setup as she gets to let go from making decisions all days which cost her so much energy.

[16:05] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): But Sir, that is in the play room.  I think a slave is ALWAYS high protocol, where a sub may be more relaxed at tiumes

[16:06] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Yes, there is truth in that

[16:06] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): yes the high protocol side can be used in different settings, but for me, its part of who and what I am.

 [16:06] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think, like anything else, Brianne, it's different to each person and dynamic.

[16:06] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods to Vanni

[16:06] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): definitely!

[16:06] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): nods

[16:06] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): People seems lost as soon we talk about protocol. That not mean a sub or "slave" cant have the same rules

[16:07] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ok....

[16:07] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): so what I'm hearing is that constant High Protocol is not useful in determining a slave or sub.  Oh well.

[16:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it might be a marker for some, not for all

[16:08] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods in agreement

[16:08] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees

[16:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good question, let's move on

[16:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Candice you are up please

[16:08] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): thank you Vanni, for me coming from Gor, i learned the aspects of a slave and tried to fit in, coming to Xaara was the best thing i did, i found the true submissive me, realized consent and sane, was hard to come to terms with in the beginning, my heart is fully submissive, it was a long battle defining the 2, i found and can be the real me here without shame. #

[16:08] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yay!

[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): funny how almost all of us say "the best thing I did is come to Xaara...." almost like this is a really good, worthwhile place :P

[16:09] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (of course it is ;) )

[16:09] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): go figure :)

[16:09] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko):  turned and winked at Candi, remembering that difficult transition

[16:09] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): huh, imagine that

[16:09] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress):  applauds

[16:09] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident):  looks at his watch, waiting for Vanni to tell him what his opinion is.....

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 [16:10] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): ~hugs~ peaches who helped me

[16:10] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): applogies for long response - 2 parts

[16:10] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): oops

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): excellent comment thanks Candice!

[16:10] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, go ahead please Sir Lngo :)

[16:11] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): on the D/s spectrum

[16:11] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): To me the term slave can have negative perception as it can mean an individual who has absolutely no rights and can be bought and sold (as in the history of chattel slavery in prior centuries and still exits today).

For me in the context of BDSM, it denotes a level of deepness on the D/s scale.  Someone who might be high on the slave spectrum desires very little negotiation and implies an openess to do all as their Dominant desires or Demands, including very brutal methods of play ( on the S/m spectrum) and day-to-day actions which may sometimes include complete isolation to reinforce complete control.  I believe a slave desires, hungers for someone to take a very deep and complete control of their life for them at many levels.. Day to day... Hour to hour... minute by minute.   

Perhaps my answer is better couched in the question what attracts me to submissives?... the act of submission to me is a gift of love.  Someone who surrenders to my desires, dreams and is ready to respond to what I express and the world I wish to build.  As a Dominant I am in control of myself - and wish to spread my control beyond into the world around me.  A submissive is one who joins in my dreams - becomes a part of my world that I create - basks and thrives in the glory of it - and becomes an active amazing part of it.  

S/m spectrum is a seperate .. but inextricabely related topic as D/s and S/m weave together.  They are neither the same thing - nor are the seperate.  Its a weave of the glorious basket we call BDSM. 

[16:11] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress):  nods

[16:12] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All very well said, Sir!

[16:12] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Sir, I think you make a great point with the word 'spectrum'

[16:12] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): nods

[16:12] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): indeed

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes indeed

 [16:12] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): I rather liked the basket weave of BDSM :)  we need to make some baskets

[16:12] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): *laughs*

[16:12] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): jinx Vanni

[16:12] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

[16:12] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria):  thinks about the world-building aspects and nods in agreement with Sir Lngo

[16:12] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  grins "But that's my word, Master, I say it all the time!" :P

[16:13] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): searches the mud pit

[16:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  also prepares a phenomenological treatise on slavery in the BDSM world.

[16:13] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): again?

[16:13] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): someone has to dear

[16:14] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): true true

[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sir Lngo!

[16:14] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Master Ballard please

[16:14] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I find the difference to me is perhaps more subtle.  In dealing with a submissive, whether outside my own chain or within Xaara, I will be polite, and ask.  I do this universally with all submissives here, even if they are wearing a community slave tag.  That is because in order to treat a slave as I treat a slave, I need to have that prior negotiation and discussion.  Not everyone that wears the tag is a slave in the way I perceive it.  ALL submissives wish to serve, and they feel the fire.  All submissives wish to know they are wanted.

[16:14] Ballard (Ballard Svenska):  reaches his arm around and casually slaps Rouge hard across the face.  He watches her as he speaks.  "With a slave there is no ask.  There is power, taken and exerted.  I command a slave.  She yields and does not question.  If I order her to stand and strip, she will do so without question.  If I order her to suck a dick (any dick), she will.  We have had the talks, the negotiations.  She knows my meaning of slavery, and she accepts it."

[16:15] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): WOW!

[16:15] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): nods

[16:15] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Sir, that was a great answer to my question.

[16:15] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Well said

[16:15] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And the key point is "the talks, the negotiations"

 [16:15] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods

[16:15] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees

[16:15] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): It has to be two-way, doesn't it? Each side MUST understand the other thoroughly.

[16:15] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Consent

[16:16] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): An M/s dynamic means the Master/Mistress KNOWS where to go with the power.  It's not illegitmate power, it's legitimate and real and controlled.

[16:16] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  nods at Kaneha

[16:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  had been sitting idly listening to the conversatoins about herself, then bang, she was slaped rigth across the face. taking a deep breath, she looked to her Master, eyes respectfully lowered. 2 thank You, my Master" voice loud enough for Him to hear, as she kept her staqnce, not faltering. many a year hses had to practice such, having no clue when He or another may do such to her

[16:16] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Beautiful

[16:17] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): :)

[16:17] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): :)

[16:17] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You for that example, Master Ballard!

[16:17] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I would note that her emote was a requirement of our dynamic.  If I act, I require a response.  And all of mine are eager to provide such a response.

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  grins

[16:18] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko):  nodded, smiling

[16:18] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): yes my Master

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Master :")

[16:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident):  grins to herself, a slow nod in agreement, cheek still burning and stinging from the slap a moment ago

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok we have two more comments

[16:18] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aspen you are up please

[16:18] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Thank you Vanni,

[16:18] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident):  hours of my day. Yes, I have no master but I keep all of the dominates who has mentor me here in Xaara and in SL. and in  my mind as my masters to keep me to where I am now. In real. I only have had two who calls themselves dominates/master.but they don't come close. So they become Friends with Benefits. I do need that structure, and high protocol in my life SL and Real life to keep me balanced. It is hard when you have to do it on your own sometimes.  I am really trying to find my submissive self here a little at a time as  I am learning and learning.  Thank you everyone how has been with me on my path.

[16:20] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): we love you aspen..and your mic is open love

[16:20] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Sorry Did not know

[16:20] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): busy writing my post and not paying attention. Please forgive me.

[16:20] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): no worries love

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  smiles at Aspen

[16:21] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All very well said Aspen

[16:22] Wieke Audeburgh (Wieke Audeburgh):  smiles and nods at Aspen

[16:22] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Thank you Vanni throwing kisses and hugs.

[16:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): being a community slave doesn't mean you are an actual slave. its just one of many ways to show others your dedication to Xaara, and your willingness to serve. that drive, that burn. sure, some of us are slaves, some I know are submissives, but are also cs at the same time. nothing wrong in that. if it fills a need or that person, then so be it. be who you are, and never let anyone try and change you. if a slave, great, if a submissive, great also. only you can answer 100% as to what you are. if someone isn't sure, as a result of tag swapping, let them ask, and do your best to explain it to them

[16:22] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident):  gives Aspen a side hug

[16:23] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees each to own choice

[16:23] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Limits always apply Aspen

[16:23] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): Agreed.  Thus my statement that a tag is not enough to decide what you may do with someone.  Negotiate each time.

[16:23] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): OMG thank you Rouge and Brianne

[16:23] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Yes Master Ballard and thank you.

[16:24] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also we've used the term "spectrum" here.  Vanni the sociologist doesn't believe in strict binaries in anything relating to humans.  Everything is up to interpretation and as humans are dynamic, that changes all the time, sometimes day to day.

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So "bottom........sub........slave" is a matter of how a person defines it in their own lives and with others

[16:25] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): absolutely

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in that context

 [16:25] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): exactly!

[16:25] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): agrees

[16:25] Nikki Naughty Irelund (Brigid Huntress):  nods

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There you go Master RB :P

[16:25] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Aspen!

[16:25] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident): Thank you, Vanni-love :)

[16:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Callie has waited patiently so please go ahead Callie

[16:26] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): Thank you Vanni. I was waiting on someone to use the C-word (thank you Candice) and the N-word (thank you Sir Ballard)... Consent and Negotiations. I have always felt that the biggest difference between slaves and submissives is the frequency and use of these two. Negotiations happen in the beginning for a slave for the length of time decided and consent is given then for that period of time, while it is an ongoing process, almost daily if not more often, between a submissive and Dominant. I have been with my Dominant for almost 6 months now, and the longer we are together, the more slave-like I feel, as Sir Lngo described. I have granted Him blanket consent and expressed that safewords are in place for a reason. We have very little negotiations these days as I feel the deepest desires to please him in all ways, in all that I do. Plus, it helps that He and I are so much on the same page that we have constant jinxes and similar thought patterns, so negotiations feel unnecessary. #

[16:26] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident): I so didn't mean to whisper. *giggles*

[16:26] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): still got it :P

[16:27] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): c @ Callie

[16:27] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Callie, I think that is a brilliant summary

[16:27] Kaneha (Kaneha Atheria): It really is

[16:27] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): very good

[16:27] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident):  smiles bashfully. "Thank you."

[16:27] RB Quinn (RBQuinn Resident):  applauds Callie

[16:27] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko):  nodded.."with my Master..I feel the same way, Callie"

[16:27] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): so well said Callie

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and I agree...my personal take is that a sub can call "time out" at any time and say "we need to talk."  A slave can still ask for re-negotiation, but they have to **ask**, they can't call the time out.  But a reasonable Dominant will still want to hear them and make considerations on their needs, with the Dom getting that decision of coruse.

 [16:28] Peaches Svenska (Peaches Gapchenko): exactly, vanni

[16:28] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's me, Y/your mileage may vary

[16:28] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): yes

[16:29] Callie Raziel (CallieRaziel Resident):  smiles over to Peaches and nod to Vanni.

[16:29] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I love this aspect of the Xaara culture.  Never assume, there is no implied consent.  So I sometimes will ask in open chat.  "Aspen, may I touch you?"  This makes it clear that I'm not creeping out in IMs, I am being open and clear.  Say yes or no, as you wish, but the question was asked BEFORE I touched.  That is essential.  If I then grab your ass, well, I had permission!  #

[16:29] Lngo Delvalle (Lngo Delvalle): Nods in agreement

[16:29] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (RougeLaroux Resident): mhmm. I ask at times if can speak freely both with my rl Owners and my Master and Mistress here. some times its just to chew the fat, but others, its about concerns / struggles I may have, and need Their help and advice on. not always to do with the dynamic itself.

[16:29] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): ^ ^

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly Master.  In my RL community, we don't even hug anyone unless there is implicit permission (like I hug people I know who want to be hug, I'd never try to hug a new person)

[16:30] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): I'll hug you Vanni

[16:30] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yay!

[16:30] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): lol

[16:30] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): C'mon, giant group hug!!

[16:30] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Giggling and wiggling to Master Ballard. "Yes Master you have my consent."

[16:30] Ballard (Ballard Svenska): then spank...

[16:31] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton):              *•.¸('*•.¸ ♥ ¸.•*´)¸.•*

[16:31] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton):       .•*♥´¨`• AMAZING •´¨`♥*•.

[16:31] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton):              ¸.•*(¸.•*´ ♥ `*•.¸)`*•.¸   

[16:31] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): that's been a wonderful discussion Vanni

[16:32] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): What a great session!

[16:32] Pure Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): Take care Master Ballard

[16:32] Aspen Diamond (Aspenbell03 Resident): Thank you Vanni.

[16:32] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll Resident): Thank you Vanni and E/everyone!

[16:32] Candice Svenska (CandiceElla Resident): awesome discussion Vanni :)

[16:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank Y/you all very much for this discussion!  I am so glad we can approach this sanely, respectfully and learn from each other.

[16:32] Vanni Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Next week..."The Brat!"

"Bondage" -- February 20, 2022

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: OK let's go ahead and get started

[08:10] Lngo Delvalle: woot woot

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Today we start our yearly look into the BDSM Acronym.  It's useful as it's the backbone of what we do here at Xaara, and we always get new people so we get new, fresh ideas into these topics

[08:14] Brianne: fresh dirty ideas, hopefully

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: I expect that the discussion over these things will take eight to ten weeks.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So today we start with Bondage.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: To quote Wikipedia, which knows all, Bondage "is the practice of consensually tying, binding, or restraining a partner for erotic, aesthetic, or somatosensory stimulation. A partner may be physically restrained in a variety of ways, including the use of rope, cuffs, bondage tape, or self-adhering bandage."

[08:15] Pure Delvalle: squirm on her cushion

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: There are obviously many ways to accomplish this.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: But the effect is the immobilization of the person in some way

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Sometimes the bondage is mixed in a scene.  For example, tying a person down and spanking them, or using some toy, and doing S/M activities.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Or electricity

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Or...whatever... *grins*

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: Sometimes the bondage is the scene in and of itself.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: For example, suspension play.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: We have a lot of people into that at my First Life club, it's a thing of art to watch it done.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: It can take 45 minutes to an our to get all the rigging done.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: And then the person is hoisted in the air and displayed.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Also, we have people who are into wrapping, using a kind of plastic wrap to mummify them

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Sometimes this is mixed with suspension, we have a winch will hoist the mummified person in the air.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And then of course, there are people who just like being tied up and kneeling/laying at the Top or Dom/mes feet.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Another form that is common is leashing.  It connects the Bottom/sub to the Top or Dom/me and keeps them from going anywhere.  *grins*

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: Leashing of course also has connections to D/s and S/M that we will get to when we get to those topics.

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, shibari is a very beautiful form of Bondage.

[08:21] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: one of my favourites

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: We have a nice shibari dojo here at Xaara that I would suggest Y/you visit if you have not...and are into it.

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: So, now that we have an idea clearly in mind about what Bondage is, here are today's Discussion questions:

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: 1) WHY do we like this so much?  What is the thrill/kink about being tied up, or tying someone up?  To vanillas this seems like madness.  Why do we like it so much (from both the Top or Dom/me AND Bottom/sub positions on this)

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: and 2) can SL be a decent facsimile of doing this live?  We don't have the tactile response here we do in First Life, so is seeing an avatar tied the same thing, or a different thing, to do this with other persons?

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: By the way, one last thing, this is how many vanilla folks start getting into the scene -- bedroom games that involve being tied/blindfolded during sex that leads to further interest... ;)

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Master Ballard, we start with You please!

[08:26] Ballard: I wrestled her arms behind her back, and pressed my cock against her ass.  She squealed and said no, but her eager smile and flashing eyes told me not to even think of stopping.  This is a true story about one of my first RL bondage experiences.  A young lady from High School that read me a story of bondage and rape, then looked at me like I was a chocolate bar and asked me if I would come over to her house after school.  *sighs at the fond memory*

I have always linked bondage with sex.  Taking a woman and restraining her, perhaps a bit of whipping or other sensation play to get her wound up.  but for me, it all ends up with my hungry cock getting that pussy.  This explains why I enjoyed Gor, and also why I left it when that sort of play became no longer the ideal. 

1)  A beautiful, helpless perfect female body.  In my hands, to be petted, fucked, spanked...  What's not to like?

2) SL with good emoting is a superb facsimile of this.  It is the spirit and heart of the submissive that the emoting can express beautifully.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: I'm sure a lot of people agree with that sentiment, Master Ballard!

[08:28] Ballard: Bondage without sex, to mne, is like watching the first half of a  movie , and never seeing the end

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: After all, as I mentioned, a lot of people first experience BDSM by tie up and sex games.  *glances at Rachel*  We have a very close friend here who was not sure about BDSM until she started doing that with her husband....now she's quite the BDSM tramp lol.  So I hear....

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Understood, Master.  But it seems for a good number of folks, the tie up has some mental reward in and of itself.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Everyone has their thing! *grins*

[08:30] Ballard: yes of course

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Master Ballard, insightful as ever! :)

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: Hestia, you are up please.

[08:31] Hestia Namaar: my bdsm test, indicated i was a rope bunny first and prey 2nd. Bondage has always excited me, but there is nothing in RL in that way, it is not an interest of my husband. so SL is it, but it does help fill that gap. with the use of RLV, bondage CAN be very..realistic. and the Leash. sigh..HOW..jealous i was of girls...whom were leashed....it almost ate away at me. But Now...Sir Davos, is always leashing me..and i feel connected when he does so. And on a side note...a leash is a useful thing when shopping. One party dragging another behind :) #

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: it sounds like you have a new leash on life!

[08:32] Hestia Namaar: facepalms and laughs

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: And yes, you are right Hestia, as the brain is the biggest sex organ, seeing something happen to our avatar does have strong mental and emotional reactions connected to it

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: I am glad you found someone to help you with those desires, Hestia!

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Very good response, thank you!

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: Ok, we go to Peaches, please!

[08:35] Peaches Svenska smiled at Vanni. "Thank you, love. After going through the Angel and Seraph programs, here in Xaara, I have come to understand myself significantly more than i did when i arrived here, a little over 2 yrs ago.

I am NOT a pain slut, but boy of boy, do i like bondage.

I was sexually abused as a child, as so many of us have been, and when i became an adult and discovered that I loved bondage and CNC, it made me wonder why.

In my Seraph studies and research, it hit me that when I am bound, or a 'victim' of CNC, I cannot be held responsible for the naughty things that 'happen' to me.

As a child and young adult, i suffered guilt over the fact that, in time, i came to enjoy the 'abuse'. 'Good girls must resist, must not enjoy such dirty things' rattled through my head all the time. So being bound, relieves me of that 'guilt' and 'shame' of being naughty..if that makes any sense."

Oh! and being leashed makes me feel safe, loved, and owned which makes me very happy.#

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: That's very interesting and I can see how bondage has that psychological effect

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: BDSM in all its aspects has the effect of taking choice from the Bottom or Sub or Slave and giving it to the Other.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Which is a profound psychological effect as you note, Peaches

[08:38] Peaches Svenska nodded

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: "I don't have to feel guilt, or shame, or anything because the other has power over me, my choices are theirs."

[08:38] Peaches Svenska: exactly

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: But in a safe and healthy environment rather than abusive (in almost all cases anyway)

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: I am SO glad you came to these realizations about yourself! ♥ *hugs*

[08:39] Peaches Svenska: ty love..me too

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: :)

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: BDSM is healing!   Those red marks are medical therapy!

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Peaches!

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Ok next we go to Brianne!  Take it, Blondie!

[08:40] Brianne: There are a million wonderful things to say about bondage, and it's the main draw for me into the BDSM world.  I really need a lot more First Life experience but what I can say so far is that even though it's voluntary, and I'm sorta used to it, there are still moments when I get that 'oh, no, what have I got myself into' feeling.  That's when I get the chance to dig deeper into submission and lean into trusting, and that is another reward on top of the pure carnal, sensual pleasure of being helpless and sexually tormented.  Who's with me?! .......

[08:40] Brianne: SL allows for some of the submissive sensations if not the physical ones.  I know that when Mistress ties me up, I'm at her mercy and that deepens our relationship.  She likes to half-joke that 'binding is caring'.  She's not wrong.  She knows that we we're indulging our mutual fetish for the enjoyment of ourself and the other.  It makes me smile just thinking of it.  It doesn't have to end with sex, sometimes the promise of more teasing to come is the best ending.  And I find myself actually craving the leash.  I love the sense of 'belonging'.  #

[08:41] Brianne: :)

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: All so well said

[08:41] Brianne: thank you

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: A bunch of years ago I took an acting class, and we did this exercise where we stood with our arms crossed and five others encircled us

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Then we closed our eyes and were to just fall over, literally.

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: And the people caught us and pushed us gently the other way, so we would rock to another person that would catch us and push us back up

[08:42] Porter: giggles at the "THEATAHHH" of it

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: the idea, according to the instructor, was to build trust with fellow actors

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: But it was FUCKING SCARY let me tell you

[08:43] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:43] Callie Raziel: Hooray for trust falls.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: You had to totally give in to these people, that they would catch you and push you back before you fell and hurt yourself

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: That came clearly to mind while you were talking about that, Brianne

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: That in bondage, we give ourselves over to this other person, trusting them to not hurt us while we are incapable of doing anything about it

[08:44] Brianne: that is very appropriate, Vanni

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: And delighting in the fact that we feel safe while so immoblized

[08:44] Brianne: :)

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Theater has lots of interesting exercises, Porter :P

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Anyway yes, your comment is very apporpriate and very deep in the psychology of bondage.  Well done, my smexy blond friend!

[08:45] Brianne: Yay!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Sir Lngo please!

[08:46] Lngo Delvalle: For me binding is an acknowledgement of submission.  The sub has crossed a line placing trust and vulnerablity completely in my hands.  Its a powerful tool.  Ounce bound - anything is possible - sex - pain - display - quiet reflection - or isolation - building trust - respecting limits -  I find all of these acts useful in BDSM depending upon what I am trying to accomplish.  The act of binding a sub gives me a sense of power - satisfaction - focus - and puts me completely in control - completely mine - and for me - overwhelming satisfaction. #

[08:46] Brianne: oh goodness, that's hot

[08:46] Pure Delvalle: smiles to her Maitre

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli looks for my ticket dispenser in inventory madly

[08:47] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: "#32!  Now serving #32!"

[08:47] Brianne looks at ticket.  "shit, I'm 99"

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Lngo, that was so spot on, and a great flip side to what Brianne was just saying about the same thing from the sub side.

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir Lngo!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: And oddly enough, we go to Sir Lngo's sexy subby wife!  Pure, you are up please!

[08:53] Venora Magic is online.

[08:53] Pure Delvalle: Being physically restrained frees my mind. I concentrate on what my Maitre is doing to me and the sensations are more intense. The pleasure is also increased tenfold. It is undeniable that to feel such control from Maitre Lngo over my body is what I seek. I am proud to belong to him and I have complete confidence when he ties me up or suspends me. It's sensual, sometimes painful, but so satisfying! To agree with Vanni "the brain is the biggest sex organ": I am fortunate to have RL experience. This is nice, because I can mentally recreate the "feelings" in SL. All profit for my Maitre! smiles. #

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Aspen please!

[08:58] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni.

When I was like 10 years old. All of my girlfriends who lived in my neighbor hood were into tying each other up and watching how long it would take us to untie.

Example: we were tied to a bunk beds. Our hands and feet were so tied up that if I pulled on my left leg it would cause tightness on the other girls leg.

I loved being the one who was tied because I could figure out how to get out of it.

I am not a true pain slut slave. . I guess when I first got started in SL and in Gor was what got my kink of bondage like. Then I got really hook. In first life it was going to the Rope Bites, going to the workshops that they offered. Had a very nice rope corset made on me and loved how the ropes made love to my skin.

I do love being restrained and having a Master holding my leash. I feel warm and wanted and know that I am safe and care for.  I know it the Master I play with is a very trusted friend, who has my best being.

Thank you Master Lngo about giving into my complete submission to the

[08:58] Aspen Diamond:  Master of the ropes. I have been teaching myself to relax and my heart will take over and to give all I have. because I know that I am cared for and nothing will happen. Of course I do have my safe word

[08:59] Brianne: Aspen, that's like poetry.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:00] Aspen Diamond: Thank you

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: We have heard from many subs, which is great, but only a couple Dominants.  I'd love to hear more Dominant takes on this.

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Aspen!

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Danielle please

[09:04] Danielle McGregor: vanni going off what you said earlier about "seeing something happen to our avatar does have strong mental and emotional reactions connected to it." I have a hard time standing for long periods of time because of gor past, I have a need to kneel, sit or be held as standing affects me mentally. And going off what Pure just said "physically restrained frees my mind." there are times when i want to be restrained and times I need it. It is like a tight loving hug or safety blanket for me when in need. It calms my mind and body, allows me ground myself and focus. #

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:04] Brianne nods nods

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: One of the most mental aspects of Bondage is the calming effect it can have

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Which is why a good number of S-Types feel happy just being tied and places at their Dominant's feet

[09:05] Hestia Namaar is aroused by bondage...not calmed!! rawwrrr.... :D

[09:05] ScarletTanager is online.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Well, it can have multiple effects

[09:05] Danielle McGregor: agreed

[09:05] Danielle McGregor: on both

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: "Side effects include:  calming, arousal, sudden death, 20 minute orgasms..."

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: "Ask your Dominant about Shibari!"

[09:06] Hestia Namaar blinks....and blushes at Master Ballards comment...

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: I'll take the 20 minute orgasm for $1000 please

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Very good Danielle, I love how you tied the threads we have been talking about together

[09:07] Hestia Namaar Shibari is a sensual and true art form...i am...stunned by its intricate nature.

[09:08] Danielle McGregor: I have had both calming and arousal from bondage so depends how and when it used

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Humans are dynamic

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: The exact same stimulus can have a very different effect on different days

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Which means that a Top or Dominant really has to watch carefully when proceeding

[09:09] Aspen Diamond: It is what mood you are in.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: And that goes back to trust

[09:09] Danielle McGregor: mood can change blink of an eye

[09:09] Aspen Diamond: Trust is where it is at Vanni.

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Danielle!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Do we have any other comments today?

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: we still have some time

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead when ready please Master Ballard

[09:10] Ballard: I can't believe the tracker is empty!  What a great topic.  This lies near the heart of BDSM.

[09:11] Ballard: Each of us reacts differently to bondage, from either side. top or bottom.

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, from scene to scene!

[09:11] Ballard: Shibari, to me, is a form of art where the bondage experience is the main thing.

[09:11] Danielle McGregor: agreed Master

[09:11] Brianne: and differently on different days.  It really is an adventure

[09:12] Aspen Diamond shaking my head to Master Ballard with a cute smile.

[09:12] Ballard: With shibari the rigger will spend days getting their rope hanks set, singed, and laid down.  Dressing the subject can take hours

[09:12] Pure Delvalle: yes..shibari is the most deep connection Maitre and I can have

[09:13] Brianne: that's what SHE said

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[09:13] Ballard: I tend to prefer simpler binds, such as posts.

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: A funny story from my RL club...

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: One day a well known Domme tied this guy up who was begging to be tied at our monthly Femdom party.  He wanted to skip all negotiation and get right to it.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Well with an evil look in her eye she agreed.  So know he's tied on this table...

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: and then he goes "Uh...do you want to know my safeword?"

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: And she looks at him as she raises a crop and goes "Well, you should have thought of THAT before, yeah?"

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: The look of SHEER PANIC in this guy's eyes was so delightful!

[09:15] Peaches Svenska: you ARE a sadist, Vanni!

[09:15] Ballard: Thus the lesson.  Negotiate BEFORE the binding

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: That wasn't me!

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: Well THAT night...

[09:16] Brianne: Narrator:  It was Vanni that night.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: I mean she wasn't about to do anything abusive, but she taught him a good lesson.

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Well this was a great dicussion today..up to the end lol

[09:18] Brianne: This has been such a 'stimulating' discussion that I need to go ask my Mistress if today is an O-day.  Whew!  *bites lower lip and sighs quiveringly*  Thank you A/all!!!!!!!  I have this lovely loving feeling in my heart after being with you all.

[09:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: c

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: oh a late cummer, i mean submission...go ahead Rouge!

[09:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: thanks vanni, and unusual for me, a short post

[09:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: bondage doesn't need to be any intricate binds or rope, leather or chains, a simple collar is bondage in itself #

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, in many scenes at the club, I just like tell the Bottom "Put your hands HERE and do not move them."  No physical bondage

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: which of course gives me a chance to do something "horrid" if they move.

[09:19] Pure Delvalle: and some leash are very long...from Tennessee to Quebec

[09:20] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: control of the mind if often more powerful than any physical bindings

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Yesssssssssss

[09:20] Katja Luminos is online.

[09:20] Brianne: Vanni, wasn't something like that in Secretary?  I loved that

[09:20] Lngo Delvalle: 1,000 miles :)

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:20] Ballard: Actually that sort of thing is awesome.  Ordering a sub to stand still, hands at their sides, for example while you examine them.  This has an amazing effect

[09:20] Brianne nods nods!!!!

[09:20] Lngo Delvalle: Nods

[09:21] Ballard: yum

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: "Bend over, put your hands on the desk, read the letter"

[09:21] Pure Delvalle: squirm so much that the cushion complain

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: That whole scene in that movie had me squirming in my seat

[09:21] Brianne: no lie!

[09:21] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: never seen it

[09:21] Brianne: you must

[09:21] Ballard: great movie Rouge

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli: It has consent issues but is educational to show them as well as aspects of BDSM and D/s

[09:21] Brianne: it's teh antithesis of 50 Shades

[09:22] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: personal services with julie walters is great

[09:22] Brianne makes a note

[09:22] Ballard: it is.  They are both moderately fucked up people, that become whole by coming together

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[09:22] Brianne: the beauty of D/s!

[09:23] Hestia Namaar after this chat...i am going to have to go take a cold shower....:/

[09:23] Brianne: may I join you?

[09:23] Ballard: Or find a hot partner

[09:23] Brianne: ♫ rimshot ♫

[09:23] Ballard: There you go

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: lol

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Rouge, that was 100% spot on

[09:23] Hettange Ferryhill is online.

[09:23] Kristeη Siηglesoηg: Please may I be excused...have another engagemnt to attend..

[09:23] Hestia Namaar ponders that idea..hot partner..cold shower...mmmm....

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli: Ok thank Y/you all for participating, next week we get to Discipline

 

"Humiliation" -- April 3, 2022

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok on that note, literally, let's go ahead and start up

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This week we continue our discussion of the BDSM acronym with a continuation of M for "Masochism"

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Last week we talked about how pain figures into the S/M part of the lifestyle, this week we turn to another form of Masochism, humiliation

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We have the amazing Dijana with us today, who as you know created a fab workshop on humiliation last year as part of her Seraph path.  I just helped a bit with it.

[08:14] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): grins

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): so I'm sure she will have something to add to this discussion :)

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): ok a bit of exposition on this

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Humiliation play is a puzzling and misunderstood part of our lifestyle

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): When we think of "humiliation" we usually think of a bottom or sub being trampled on, their Dom/me or Top telling them they are worthless shit, doing Golden or Roman Showers on them.

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Just because that's a typical Saturday night for me doesn't make me strange, ok?

[08:17] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But in all honesty, more of us do very subtle forms of humiliation than we think, and people that enjoy this kind of kink are not "strange", they have their kink and are enjoying it with people who share it.  It's all good and yummy!

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So quickly, three kinds of humiliation play.  Those of you that have been here before or have heard the Humiliation workshop have heard these.  I hope it will provoke discussion

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The first is Status Humiliation.

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This is some kind of activity where the Bottom/Sub is moved down the hierarchy to be sure they, and everyone around knows, that the target is under the authority and rule of the Top/Dominant

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): A lot of us do this

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): For example

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Subbies in the room

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): how many of you like to be leashed?  Raise your hand

[08:20] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): 1

[08:20] Ɛɱɱą Ɛŋƈɧąŋէɱεŋէ (emma.enchantment): raises  hand

[08:20] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): raises hand

[08:20] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): raises hand

[08:20] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria) raises her hand

[08:20] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone) Raises mine with a big smile ^^

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) raises my hand

[08:20] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) raises hand

[08:20] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (consuela.caldwell): raises hand

[08:20] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence) puts her hand up quickly

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) giggles

[08:20] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe) raises my hand

[08:20] Serreia (pixann): raises hand

[08:20] Ballard (ballard.svenska) takes notes of the names

[08:20] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) raises hand!

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Dominants, how many of You enjoy leashing Your sub/slave?

[08:21] Ballard (ballard.svenska): Oh yes, very much

[08:21] Sher (sharesher1774): yes

[08:21] Sher (sharesher1774): yes

[08:21] Lngo Delvalle: raises hand

[08:21] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants): Better raise mine

[08:21] Oly Oller: raises his hand with a grin

[08:21] Arella McGregor (arella4): Raising My hand

[08:21] Abraham Jacobson (abrahamjacobs2): raises my hand

[08:21] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι (kirin.serevi): raises my hand

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok, so the majority of us in this room like either being treated as an animal, or enjoy treating our sub/slave as an animal on a leash.

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): BUT

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We don't think of it that way

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It doesn't damage self worth

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): In fact, it enhances it, doesn't it

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Being on a leash makes the sub feel owned, protected, and *belonging* to someone

[08:22] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): nods

[08:22] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) nodded.."indeed"

[08:23] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): very much so

[08:23] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) nods lots

[08:23] Ɛɱɱą Ɛŋƈɧąŋէɱεŋէ (emma.enchantment): nods

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): While having a person on a leash gives the Dominant the feel of ownership and control

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The point I am making here is that Status Humiliation doesn't do anything to degrade a person.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It's a willing desire to "be put in ones place"

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So things like "walk three steps behind me" or "kneel there in Tower and do not speak until spoken to" are forms of this.

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It's the power exchange in action

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Which we'll get into more when we get to D/s after Easter

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The second kind of humiliation is Physical Humiliation

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This is when the bottom/sub is turned into some form of object or perhaps an animal

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So a chair, a couch, a lamp

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I was at a pre-covid private BDSM gathering and one Dom had set his girl up as a lamp in the corner for the evneing

[08:26] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): a sushi table

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): she was wearing an Ikea lampshade and was holding a low wattage lit bulb in her hands

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That's all she did all night, she was given breaks to go to the bathroom, drink, eat and stretch, and then back in the corner as the lamp

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): And she was tickled pink

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Petplay also comes in here

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) looks at Brianne and winks, thinking about the puppy running about.

[08:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): :)

[08:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): arf

[08:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) scratches fleas

[08:28] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Heeee!!! Cute!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Third kind of humiliation is where it gets really dicey:  emotional humiliation

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): This is where the Top/Dominant does use some kind of name calling, or humiliating acts, that are *****NEGOTIATED***** with the sub

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Note the HUGE emphasis on NEGOTIATED.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Anything done here not negotiated is abuse, pure and simple.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): For example, in a scene where I am the bottom, I'm quite happy to be called "Bitch" "whore" or have certain degrading things done.

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): IN THE SCENE after we TALK about it.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Outside of that you get to see what a mad Sicilian woman is like.

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It ain't pretty.

[08:30] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): grins

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): with negotiation, this is fine

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Everyone has their kink and how they get off

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Done minus careful negotiation, it's as dangerous as taking a paddle and just wailing on a person with it minus negotiation.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): OK, so with all this said, the questions of the day are :  1) do Y/you enjoy Humiliation from either side?  if so 2) what types and 3) Are there things about this that seem puzzling to Y/you?

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): ok we already have a bunch of piping hot comments, whoo hoo!

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Master Ballard, thank You for Your patience.  You are first!

[08:33] Ballard (ballard.svenska): As Vanni says humiliation comes in many forms, ranging from the outright and extreme, to a more subtle level.  Myself I like to use pet names, some of which may seem crude.  I have called Peaches 'sugar tits".  I never really think of it as humiliation, but it is.  It also is when I call Rouge 'slut' (she is).  So these are things I do without intending to engage in any type of 'play', it simply is my way.  I wonder how many of us use undercurrents like that as a form of domination.

#

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Yes!

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): As I said, Master, this is more common in our lifestyle than we think, but sometimes it is very subtle and so not even really thought of as a humiliating act.

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Also I think place matters.  Peaches may find You calling her that in private provokes a different reaction than right here in public.  I'd let her answer that of course.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Rouge, well *grins at her*

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So yes, very good first comment, thank You Master!

[08:35] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) blinks " im a nun I keep telling ya!"

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I'll have nun of that young lady!

[08:36] Ballard (ballard.svenska): ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:36] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) smirks

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to Ema up on the bookcase!

[08:36] Ema  (ema1983): i know it is back a little .. but i can not type that fast lol and i was a good girl ... grinz and waited ....... so ......

[08:36] Ema  (ema1983): i think humiliation by nature has to be something you do NOt enjoy   you might enjoy the effect of being pushed to do some thing you are uncomfortable with  in this case  some thing to be ashamed of a little or a lot   but if you enjoy the act ... being leashed it is not in my opinion humiliation it is just some thing you like a kink if you will #

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): right, I agree Ema, and it goes back to place matters.

[08:37] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell (consuela.caldwell): context

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Here in Xaara, where leashes are very common, it is more the connection

[08:37] Ema  (ema1983): mm yes i agree with that too :)

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But take a person into a vanilla spot on a leash, with all eyes on the leasher and leashee, it turns into a different kind of scene

[08:38] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): completely

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I was at a kinky bar party many years ago, and a friend of mine brought his girl in on a leash.  This was a kinky group but a vanilla place, they knew us so it was all cool

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But she comes in leashed, sits next to my friend and says nothing.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We order and she orders nothing

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We asked "Isn't she hungry?"  My friend says "No, she ate out of her dish earlier"

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): She turned bright red but looked like she was about to orgasm.

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So THAT leashing and act was highly humilating, and it was done for a different reason than we do here.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Good point Ema, thank you!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That was spot on

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Peaches we go to you please

[08:41] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) smiled at Vanni, a sassy sparkle in her eyes. "Thank you Vanni. It was not until I was on my Seraph path that I realized that, in part, I too love humiliation play, with limitations, of course.

I was the one who rejected the notion, simply due to the word, Humiliation. Growing up a red head, and the 6th of 7 children, I endured a LOT of the wrong kind of emotional humiliation, causing me to loath myself. That, combined with the childhood sexual abuse I endured, gave me a self esteem that was in the crapper.

Then, during my path, I became educated to the fact that there are many forms of humiliation that I love. It never occurred to me that wearing a collar and a leash or being called SugarTits by my Master or any such term by anyone (I consider those to be terms of endearment), was humiliation play..and I love it! I love being objectified! I love being dominated! I love being an exhibitionist! So..bring it on! Please!

And, by the way, Vanni, if Master leashed me or called me SugarTits in public i

[08:41] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko):  would burn red as i blushed but I would love it!#

[08:42] Ballard (ballard.svenska): Yes, I do not hold back

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Well look here, Sugar Tits...

[08:43] Serreia (pixann): lol

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): :P

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I get exactly what you're saying, Peaches

[08:43] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) squirmed on her heels, moisture collecting

[08:43] Lngo Delvalle: writes down new name :)

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Sometimes it takes that epiphany to realize that what we like is actually a mild form of humiliation play, but the stigma on the word (and rightly so, in its non-consensual form) makes us reject the idea.

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) looks at Dijana, "That's a pretty accurate statement, would you say, Di?"

[08:44] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): very much so Vanni!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So you're spot on, Splenda Boobies (need to mix it up here)

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): And I'm happy you've found your happy place *grins*

[08:45] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) stood, shaking her boobs wilkdly

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok, now that we have Stevia Bazongas' comment done....we move to Callie please

[08:46] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): Thank you Vanni. My question is definition based. What do you believe the difference is between humiliation and degradation? They seemed to be used interchangeably during this morning's exposition, but there is a difference between them in my opinion. After some Googling, I found that, as verbs, the difference between degrade and humiliate is that degrade is to lower in value or social position while humiliate is to injure a person's dignity and self-respect. While discussing this with my Master, I said that I felt that humiliation has a 'public' component to it as well. What are the groups thoughts on this? Do you differentiate? If so, is one a limit for you while the other is not? Why or why not? #

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Just to point out, in my experience, while those are certainly correct dictionary definitions, the *usage* of the words seems to be different in the community.  Again, from my experience.  Humiliation is more poking at a person while degrading them is attacking some aspect of their self-worth, which CAN be ok in a negotiated, limited context, but is very dangerous to do beyond that.

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Again, this is how I've seen these terms used in my experience.  Your mileage may vary of course.

[08:48] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): For me, the humiliation is temporary, the degradation irreversible!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Anyone else want to answer her question, please do so.  No C required

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That's largely how I see it as well, especially non-consensual

[08:49] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): I think it come to how you feel about yourself. Humiliate I feel does not hurt ones self worth or self confidence... Degrading does

[08:49] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): and that is also why Humiliation can be tricky.. You may think you are just making a small boob joke but if that is something that has been a source of insecurity in the past you may mean to humiliation and end up degrading

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I'm not outing Rachel here, shes's very open about this...she enjoys words which I will not repeat here, used in a scene, that would be highly degrading OUTSIDE of that scene.

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): She would have right to slap me across the face if I used them outside of that context.

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But in that context, tell 'em how you feel Rachel...

[08:53] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Well, for me if there's any distinction to be made between Humiliation and Degradation, it would be consent

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Right!

[08:54] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): agreed Rachel

[08:54] Arrades Knight (arrades): name calling in a public setting would be humiliatin, but when done by someone who aint my Dom would be degrading, like Slut, slave or Miss in my case

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Does that all help Callie?

[08:54] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) smiles and nods. "Yes. It does. Thank you all."

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It's an ongoing puzzle :)

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Good!

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Thank you for that, we have another question from Brianne please

[08:55] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): Thank moo, I mean 'you'.

[08:55] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): For me personally, I'm not excited by emotional humiliation beyond being called 'slut' or 'whore' or 'pet' or 'doll'.  (I got enough verbal abuse growing up, thank you very much)  What I do love is being an art object, a pony, a puppy, a cow, furniture, or just a bound girl on display.  And, of course, being leashed is always just as thrilling as ever.  I think I'm most excited by objectification, physical humiliation, done in a very "matter of fact" way.   This sort of humiliation, done like "of course Brianne is my property, it could be no other way", gets to me deeply.  It does give me a sense of belonging, yes, but so many other feelings that are hard to express too.  Perhaps it's the 'inevitability' factor, I don't know  I wonder how many other subs experience it this way?  Do you prefer overt or subtle humiliation?

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Feel free to answer, no "C" required!

[08:56] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): both have a place :)

[08:56] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) nods

[08:56] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) nods to Brianne and smiles

[08:56] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): agreed with Doxie. both for sure

[08:57] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): both

[08:57] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): I agree with Doxie also

[08:57] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): I prefer private over public. I like to be treated like a lady in the streets (for the most part) and whore in the sheets, as the saying goes.

[08:57] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): hee

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Three sheets to the wind?

[08:57] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): lol

[08:58] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): but the 'matter-of-fact" approach works for others too?

[08:58] Arrades Knight (arrades): Public humiliation, as long as I am leash to Sir, is good for as as it  make me feel safe. But I can take more when done in private.

[08:58] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): I used to think all humiliation was a hard no, and then my Mistress introduced me to the concept of living art... which I LOVE. I agree entirely with Brianne - when my Mistress displays me, it's done through love and pride. Knowing those are the emotions behind it makes it thrilling, exciting and arousing, rather than something to be shied away from. Yet anything else to do with humiliation is still a no, even with her.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I've done a scene where I was a coffee table for a Top at the club, years ago.  It had a very different feel in public than had that been done privately.

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): In private it would have been more intimate and "us" while at the club for 30 minutes it was "all eyes on us" kind of thing.

[08:59] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): agree Vanni and Kaneha...

[08:59] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) nods in agreement with Vanni.

[08:59] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): I love this comment ...Lady in public, slut in private

[08:59] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe): I can relate to that comment well  smiles

[08:59] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence) looks at Vanni and hopes they used coasters

[09:00] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): lol

[09:00] Serreia (pixann): I love being on display....there is something very freeing for me

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) giggles sort of a small board to keep the drink in place

[09:00] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): Kaneha, I love that you mentioned " done through love and pride"  That is so important

[09:00] Somnias поднимаю большой палец, Kaneha

[09:00] Somnias *>en thumbs up, Kaneha

[09:01] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria) smiles "It really is, Brianne, and that is the factor which really gets to me and sends me into subspace... in those moments, I would do anything for her. And other moments, too, of course..." :) #

[09:01] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): Yaaaas!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Excellent question and excellent response, thanks Brianna and A/all!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to Sir Lngo next with a comment

[09:02] Lngo Delvalle: I find it interesting that actions may be perceived differently from the top and the bottom.  Example:  I might slap on the face as an act of position power exchange - but that might be perceived as degradation by the sub.  All so important in understanding the action and reactions.  Not always the same. 

Seems like a good aspect to cover when discussing limits etc.   Not just the limit - but how actions are perecieved from Top and Bottom.  #

[09:03] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): very good point, Sir!

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Right Sir!

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Negotiation is the key

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Slap my arse as much as You like, DO NOT slap my face, that's a immediate red.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We talk before a scene, that's settled

[09:04] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Exactly *nods

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): BDSM is an ongoing conversation

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): As Peaches pointed out, she found out things about herself that surprised her

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): and she's grown over time, which is amazing

[09:05] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone) nods

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So she's given Master Ballard all kinds of additional tools *grins*

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Very good comment Sir, thank You!

[09:06] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) nodded, grinning

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to Doxie next, please

[09:06] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): thank you :)

[09:06] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): Though i would never want to engage in the more extreme humiliation play i do find it strangely satisfying to be leashed, and expected to kneel in silence while dominants talk over me. Of course I have experienced other variations ... being made to stand and strip for example, in public.

All these things i regard as part of being a submissive and completely at the service of my Master. I don't think about not simply obeying to the best of my ability.

Of course even dress control is part of this.

But all of this is just for my Master, whilst i will kneel generally i have little tolerance of being belittled by anyone else.

[09:07] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) nods to Doxie

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Exactly!

[09:07] Serreia (pixann): nods to Doxie's comment

[09:07] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): Smiles at my Dear Doxie

[09:07] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria) nods in agreement with Doxie

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): You and Master Upton have that relationship, He knows where and how to push, and through those acts you *serve* Him.

[09:07] Doxie O'Goode (doxie.sixpence): yes :)

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): but if someone came up and just started yapping commands, I think your reaction would be "And who the f* are YOU?"

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Nicely put, of course :P

[09:08] RB Quinn (rbquinn): smiles and nods to Vanni

[09:09] RB Quinn (rbquinn): "Context Counts"

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): That said, there are of course bottoms and subs who DO enjoy being a public servant, we not should diminish their desires at all.  Everyone has their thing.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Excellent comment, Doxie, thanks!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to the smexy and smart Dijana please!

[09:10] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Thanks Vanni....When I did the research for the workshop I was surprised at what I discovered, especially about emotional play....this was a great bit from the workshop, if you would please indulge me....

[09:10] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Because of the way our culture is, we often can not deal with emotions at the time we have them.  Society doesn't adequately give people time to process a loss or other trauma.  Many people are asked "How are you doing?" every day and give an automatic non-emotional response. Our politically correct culture may also not let us express our feelings or express them in ways that are satisfying or meaningful to us.

 Feelings of anger and jealousy have roots that go back to our early days as humans.  Expressing anger at a partner or outrage at a situation is limited by the reasonableness and rationality of our current time.  Playing may be our way to express larger or more extreme emotions in a acceptable way.  It's a way to work through things we are holding onto that keep us from leading a healthy and balanced life.  It can even pave the way for a bottom to work through some very tough, emotional baggage that has possibly stolen their voice, their self esteem or even their health.

[09:10] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384):  Emotional play is also an opportunity to experience or revel in emotions without having the serious consequences that often occur in real life events.  Some of the benefits from emotional play include finding the strength to fight back, standing up to oppressors, transforming painful experiences into more positive situations and finding more respect for yourself or your partner.  For some people this type of play is about revisiting, reliving, and coping with experiences to mentally rewrite or change them.  Exploring in this way, they have the power to stop the scene at any moment and have control over it.  Because of this, they are able to focus on, relive and reclaim or eliminate the anger and fear that they experienced during this act.

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) claps

[09:11] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): I love that

[09:12] RB Quinn (rbquinn): applauds

[09:12] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): I think my IQ went up 10 pts just reading that.

[09:12] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone) Snaps!

[09:12] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): Wow!!!

[09:12] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): WOW !

[09:12] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): standing ovation

[09:12] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Nailed it! Lol

[09:12] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants): Very good!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): See, smart and sexy!

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So well said Di

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): take care Sir

[09:13] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): I would have NEVER thought of emotional play in that way

[09:13] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) definitely makes a note of all that

[09:13] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) sat with her mouth agape, unable to form words

[09:14] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): It can be incredibly therapeutic, ironically enough *giggles

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): again, the key here is done where the bottom/sub has the power...it's an empowering act

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Whereas in abuse, the *abuser* has the power

[09:14] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): exactly!

[09:15] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): YES

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): and all the abused person can do is run, not walk, to the nearest exit.

[09:15] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): or wait the ambulance....:(

[09:15] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko) closed her eyes and shook her head as memories flashed thru her mind

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Dijana thank you so much for that

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): You are a treasure here at Xaara, really.

[09:16] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): aww...thank you Vanni

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) sends Sir Stile a "Thank You Card" for letting her hand around :P

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Ok next, Rouge with a comment please

[09:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): Thanks Vanni,

for me, be it here or in real life, humiliation is an integral part of who and what I am. some think it odd, given what all I went through with my rl ex. if anything, its given me a better appreciation of it, when its done by those I trust.

Be it name calling, a slap to the face and saying stuff, others may find derogatory, and in all honesty, it is, but not in a harmful way. it just adds that a bit of seasoning to the dynamic.

walking behind and to the left of my Master if habit, here and in real life. only ever go before my Master, or any other Dominant, if told to lead the way to some place They wish to be guided to.

as for pet play, forgive me if im wrong, but even pony play can be classed as such by some. the morphing of ones mindset to no longer act as a human, but an animal.

being a kajira, having to act as a table, is common to be honest. holding the tray, or even just having hands ready to take the drink or plate etc as and when is needed. hell, even could be an ashtray as

[09:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux):  part of cigar service for those who like that. again, many ways that can also be done.

what im getting at, is this. sure, some might look at things and go " oh hell no, stop that now!" and im like, hell yes, keep going and don't stop!" horses for courses, what's for one isn't always going to be for another.

some might not like what others do, but we can accept its how they role, what makes them happy. and never, ever try and shame a person for being into this sort of thing, or any other aspect of the lifestyle for that matter.

one thing I do recall my Master doing to myself last year was making me say something positive about myself to those I was holding a conversation with. this was by far from easy, as never EVER look at myself in that light. but I did it, and passed on the conversations as orders. was it hard to do, yes, was it humiliating, EXTREMELY, well for me anyway. but, I did learn from it. sure, im still struggling with being positive about myself, but think in a better place than had been.

[09:16] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux):  so in a way, humiliation can in fact be a good thing, rather than always being thought of as bad. #

[09:18] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): nods nods nods

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli) hands Rouge her book contract :P

[09:18] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): All incredibly well said Rouge!

[09:18] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): thank you. just say it as I see it. which at times usually gets me into bother lol

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I especially like that end part where you mention that having to say positive things about yourself was humiliating.....that will come as a huge surprise to many not in this lifestyle

[09:19] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): I'm glad that you had to say positive things about yourself because you have a lot of positive things that should be recognized

[09:19] Arella McGregor (arella4): Nods

[09:19] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): Yes!

[09:20] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) looks for a place to hide..

[09:20] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): grins

[09:20] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll) sorry!

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): 100% spot on Brianne

[09:21] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): we all recognize rouge's enormous worth..but she doesn’t

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): all the Svenska girls are super duper.  That Sweet-and-Lo Boobiez too

[09:21] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): HA! Vanni! I took it off!

[09:21] Lngo Delvalle: lol

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Stand up comedians will run with a joke for a while :P

[09:21] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Thank you Rouge!

[09:21] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): even kneel down ones

[09:21] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): lol

[09:21] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): Better than sugar tits. she is a sweet heart

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): :)

[09:22] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): I think Equal is feeling left out a bit Vanni *winks*

[09:22] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We go to that other smexy DJ among us, Dee

[09:22] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe): Thank you Vanni!   Years ago I was a new submissive on another sim and had just graduated; one of the Masters summoned me via my IM telling me "Dee your slut, get your ass in here and kneel for me.. now!"   Back then I felt degraded, but then again,  I was a new submissive.. Fast forward to here in Xaara; I did attend daks workshop on humiliation play and I  had a revelation,  those words said to me all those years ago that bothered me,  I had a revelation, those were things that actually "spoke" to me deep down.  I didn't feel degraded at all,  many of the things mentioned are things that are a big turn on for me now!  grins   Since then I have done scenes with my Master and a trusted Dominant where they called me slut, whore etc. it brought some primal, sexual feelings lol   I will add, those were done privately and that if done in public I would feel differently about it.  Master has me leashed regularly here in Xaara as well as other places and I enjoy that feeling of being connected to him and I feel

[09:22] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe):  safe, cared for and loved,  smiles #

[09:23] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): YES, Dee!

[09:23] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe) smiles

[09:23] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) nods in agreement with Dee

[09:23] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Love that for you, Dee! ^^

[09:23] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe) smiles to Rachel

[09:24] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): well said Dee!

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): One time I walked into House of V and some dipshit IMs me instantly and says almost the same thing "Come here and kneel, little bitch."  Maybe it was the same one

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): I'm like "Uh, no, who the f* are you?"

[09:24] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Now if a Domiant who I willingly submit to did that, I'd go running

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): So it does hit us in a primal way, but as it has been mentioned here, CONTEXT matters

[09:25] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants): yes!

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): The *who* is doing this

[09:25] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): Makes a note to stop using the "little  bitch" opening line :)

[09:25] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): Absolutely!

[09:25] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): note

[09:25] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): The when, the where, the tone of voice, it all matters a ton

[09:25] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): lol Master

[09:25] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Yus!

[09:26] Peaches Svenska (peaches.gapchenko): and the deep down intentions

[09:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Spot on, Dee, and like Peaches, you have found things in yourself and grown, and that's so beautiful

[09:26] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): We move to Kaneha please!

[09:27] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): One thing that I discovered as I explored living art with my Mistress was the way it actually let me reclaim my self-confidence. That was a really surprising outcome, and pretty much the exact opposite of what I had expected. So thinking back to what Dijana shared with us just now, I can see that's partly what I gained from exploring that aspect of humiliation play - a chance to work through some confidence issues. And I didn't even realise at the time, because I was so focused on the humiliation issue that I wasn't aware of that peripheral, secondary benefit. But it's only been possible because I have absolute trust in my Mistress. Without that, I would never even have agreed to start exploring. It's the difference between being put in a humiliating situation and being humiliated, and being put in a humiliating situation and made to feel like the Hope Diamond. #

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Exactly, Kaneha!

[09:27] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Take care Sir!

[09:28] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): holy shit, Kaneha, you crystallized that thought for me too.

[09:28] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): I think of where I was and where I am now... where my Mistress has helped me to be... and they really are worlds apart.

[09:29] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): living art is not humiliation for me..this is...art and well see even in Vanilla event!

[09:29] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): I hear you there kaneha. im same in both realms also. still long ways to go personally, but a work in progress. and if we can be made into art along the way, then why not enjoy being such!

[09:29] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): I LOVE it now... but last year, I was more "You want me to do WHAT?!"

[09:29] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): that needed to be said too, Pure

[09:29] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): It can be for some Pure, again, each person has different takes.  Some people will NOT get nude in SL where we all look hawt.

[09:30] Kaneha (kaneha.atheria): Exactly, Rouge :)

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Publically that is

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Others are like "If God wanted us wearing clothes he would have miracled them on us at birth"

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): so...different strokes and all :P

[09:30] Callie Raziel (callieraziel): It took me a while to be able to be nude in public in SL. There was a mental block there.

[09:30] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): right!

[09:31] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Yeah I wear them sort of as a general courtesy here *giggles

[09:31] Brianne (kittenbunnydoll): 2 years ago, I thought talk of how BDSM is therapeutic was simply justification.  Now I KNOW how true that is.

[09:31] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): See, sunday mornings help!

[09:31] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Thanks Kaneha, excellent comment

[09:31] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): nude for art or at the fountain is right for me, but I realized I wont be if I am not under command of my Maitre.

[09:31] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): they do!

[09:32] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux): im worse in real life. far more chunky than I am here. so when my rl Master had me posting my first pics on fet, im like say what?! but the more I do it, the more I enjoy doing it. not just cause He tells me to do it, but also, some have gathered quite a lot of likes, and to know its given so many pleasure, even if just for a few moments, makes me happy

[09:32] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): YES!

[09:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Final word:  Humiliation play may NOT be for Y/you, and that's fine

[09:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): No one should ever think they MUST do anything in this lifestyle

[09:32] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): And we all have different speeds!

[09:32] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): it's what clinks in us and what works

[09:32] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): And that's ok!

[09:32] Callie Raziel (callieraziel) nods in agreement

[09:33] ღ- Sultry -ღ (sultry.sassypants) giggles and thinks she needs some therapy

[09:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But do know that Xaara is a safe place to learn and perhaps experiment with likeminded people

[09:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): And we might find ourselves doing things we thought we'd never do in time.

[09:33] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): But if not, that's super cool do...do YOU.

[09:34] Pure Delvalle (pureperle.anton): I agree Vanni...Xaara, workshops and the discussion here are so helpful...we are blessed!

[09:35] Rachel Reid (reddyplayerone): Thank you so much Vanni! And E/everyone for sharing! Such a good chat today! ♥

[09:35] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): thank you so much Vanni....I love these discussions!

[09:35] Dee Wolfe  (diana.wolfe): Thank you Vanni for this discussion, it was very interesting hearing E/everyone's take on the topic

[09:35] Upton O'Goode (upton0goode): y'all have a good day. Thanks for the chat Vanni.

[09:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): Next week we'll talk again about one more kind of Masochism, Extreme Play

[09:35] Dijana :::Stile::: (dijana384): ooooo

[09:35] Arrades Knight (arrades): Have a good day all

[09:35] Ɛɱɱą Ɛŋƈɧąŋէɱεŋէ (emma.enchantment): was a great chat, thank you

[09:35] Wyndi O'Goode (jywenne): TC E/everyone

[09:35] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα (rougelaroux) perks up at that one

[09:35] Vanni Cannoli (vannesh.cannoli): and then we'll take an Easter Break to praise the good lord what sits up in the sky