"Consensual Non-Consent" (CNC) -- October 19. 2025

 [15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Alright.....we've dithered long enough, let's get started

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Although this time it's a jack-o-lantern!

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:47]  (Jack O' Lantern Discussion Tracker): Welcome all to today's discussion!

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok today is a topic that can be rather controversial...Consensual Non-Consent, or what's usually known as "CNC"

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have a bit of exposition as usual

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So drop a "C" or "Q" in as thoughts come to mind and after my screed we'll go to the queue]

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  grabs a sheaf of notes

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): CNC is one of those topics that cuts a couple ways...some love it, some are like "who the heck would do that?"

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The basic idea is that the Dominant and S-Type *negotiate* a scene to where the Top/Dominant has full control over those aspects of it.  The s-type or bottom will not safeword to those things.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now some people think this means the S-Type is ripe for abuse here.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): IF done wrong, I'd agree.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But there are important steps that need to be taken

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First...a LOT of negotiation over exactly what the CNC elements are going to be

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some equate this activity with "rape scenes."  such a scene is certainly possible, but it doesn't have to be what appears to be non-consensual sex

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it could be something like "I'm going to force you to be my maid, you will do exactly as I order and I will beat you for infractions."

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The persons involved would discuss what the 'maid activities' are and what the 'punishments' would be for 'infractions'.

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then the scene is on, the infractions and punishments agreed upon happen and every has a good time.

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the important thing is that the s-type who is the 'maid' agrees to not safeword or stop the scene as long as those agreed upon activities are going on

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because they gave consent prior

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now if the Top/Dominant decides to "add" things not agreed upon, the s-type has every right to stop the scene.  it now really is non-consensual.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this kind of play requires a LOT of knowledge of each other and trust.

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is not something to be done as a casual scene IMO.  your mileage may vary, of course

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So my questions for today are:  1) Is this in your wheelhouse?  Do Y/you enjoy CNC?  If so, what's enjoyable in your opinion, and 2) do you think this perhaps dangerous and leading to negative outcomes?  There is no right or wrong here, we're talking about personal takes on this, not moral absolutes.

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll give y'all a min to think and drop the C or Q in the queue

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Liss when you are ready please!

 

[15:58] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): A couple of things - first a question back, do you see CNC differently between rl and sl? ... now I'll keep typing

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sounds good!

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After you type your comment, Liss, I'll open that question to the floor

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): let's get that in first

 

[16:00] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): One occasion in sl is the use of rlv relays, occasionally but rarely I switch my rlv relay to Auto, so I don't get asked. That seems a form of CNC to me, maybe I've negotiated with the region I'm willing to do it in. #

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I would think so, Liss

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You are giving consent to be grabbed in that sim

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and while you can get out of any situation there is still the thrill that someone might well grab you and do something "horrible"...or maybe really horrible?

 

[16:02] Liss (LissomePrey Resident):  nods

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): does anyone want to comment on Liss' question about First and Second Life differences regarding CNC?

 

[16:03] taryn (Taryn Topaz): No ma'am

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just go ahead

 

[16:03] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think both were spot on :)

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no C required to answer

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In my opinion, Liss, I see a very clear difference

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In First Life one has to be very, very careful about whom they'd get into a CNC scene with

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Trust is paramount, because a lot of responsibity is on the Dominant or Top....if something is going sideways, they have to stop the scene]

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if I have agreed to not stop the scene, the Top/Dominant has to know me, know what's going on, and take that responsibility

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Here the fact it's virtual mitigages *some* of that as physical harm is not usually an issue (unless mirroring is going on)

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but psychological and emotional harm are still real outcomes

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So yeah different in some ways but participants must still be very careful.

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Any other comments?

 

[16:07] ella (ellabi Resident): insecure if it is a meningsless input but what the heck...C

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just say C :)

 

[16:07] ella (ellabi Resident): I have never used safeword since I only submit to dominants after a deep get to know chat. I have not thought about this concept since with deep trust one want to obey totally. In some way with Master it is always CNC since I trust him never to abuse me. He only push me in a thoughtful way that is beneficial for both.  perhaps not a meningful input but thats all I have on this speciic subject matter. I can ad that I am house servant by own choice in RL, perhaps not even seen as lifestyle but with similiarites. (so certainly no need for talks about CNC or safewords in RL smilles).ps... I do mirroring with Master, only with him om command.#

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ella...first you put in the C and then you are in the queue

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just so you know

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): what you brought up is something I do want to talk about so first let me get Johan's comment and then we'll come back to that.

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan, go ahead please and then we'll circle back to Ella

[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I had the early misconception that CNC= Forced/Rape type scenes myself until rather recently when a discussion on CNC was either in a Facebook group or Threads discussion that opened my eyes.

Pretty much ANY scene that involves a "Noo!! "  "Stop!! That hurts!" (without using a agreed upon Safeword) Can be considered consensual non-consent which was an interesting way to look at it.     It is important to note that while CNC the /s type agrees to not safeword within the boundaries they STILL 100% CAN if something happens that needs them to.; even with consensual non-consent - Consent can be revoked at any time ( by either party!)

In that aspect I think CNC is in many people's wheelhouses more than they expect - but I think like ANY Kink related activity there is a degree of danger (part of the fun!) and there could be negative outcomes based on miscommunication, inexperience by either/all parties,  etc.   #Done

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That is an interesting take!

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and yes of course, the s-type can always in the end yell the safeword or just "Stop now!" and that better stop the scene

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or we move into abusive behavior

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Really IMO, a CNC scene is what you described, a scene in which it's negotiated that things liked and wanted will be done so the sub/bottom has no need to safeword

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): even though it appears they're screaming "OH GOD NO!  STOP!"

 

[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): What they are really screaming "Yes More ! Harder Daddy!"

 

[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): (coffee and sugar from donuts kicked in )

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this is why trust is so paramount

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the bottom *knows* that the top/Dominant will go only so far

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so they can immerse fully in the scene]

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): even though in theory the Dom can do "anything they want" in the negotiated area

 

[16:14] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): like rope, i know i can sink and bliss out cause someone will keep me from drowning

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But if I met some "Top" at the Pier and in ten mins they wanted me to go do a CNC with them ....no no no, NO.]

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Great perspective there Johan, thanks!

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And thank you Liss as well.

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I want to go back to Ella's comment a moment then we'll move to Kahlan and taryn

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ella what you described is more of a CNC D/s connection rather than a scene

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some find that a bit more disturbing than "just" a CNC scene

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but IMO I think it's just a "total power exchange" in which the submissive/slave gives over total consent to their Dominant, at least in the areas negotiated

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): going from a scene to a lifestyle

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so let me ask a question to the group -- feel free to answer, no C.

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): When a submissive/slave says "I make no decisions, Master/Mistress makes them all for me" is that to be seen as an issue, case by case look and see if all is well, or not an issue at all?

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (That to me is the total TPE/CNC sort of D/s connection)

 

[16:21] ella (ellabi Resident): It can be a severe issue but also no issuue at all depdning on the realtion

 

[16:21] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): It wouldn't work for me, but each person or couple is different.

 

[16:22] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I would have to know more about the situation before making an informed opinion.  In some cases it could 100% be a Consensual TPE - others it could be coerced abuse.

 

[16:22] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): If that is what you negotiated for, there is no problem. But if its someone you just met here, making RL decisions for you... that is a hella pause. but then again if you aren't to make decisions about your clothing but you are to make all your own food choices.... Its all a sliding scale of mutual satisfaction and negotiation

 

[16:23] taryn (Taryn Topaz): I would think if the sub/slave is happy, healthy, and showing no signs of abuse, than it is just their agreed connection and all is well. If showing signs of abuse or they are not happy or healthy, than someone should step in and make sure their is no abuse happening.

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All very good points!

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some submissives really do have what we call the "slave" kind of personality, and are happiest when making no decisions, or as few as possible

 

[16:24] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): I think that watching from the outside...see the interactions between the Dom/Sub....see if you perceive abuse or healthy relationship...but until you do that...don't get between a Dom and sub

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and if the relationship is healthy it's not an issue

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree Rachel

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): fine to IM the sub and ask if all is well

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): making public comments unless clear abuse is going on is tricky

 

[16:25] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): I think that is sometimes a problem, staying out of it. i see something fishy and i go into protection mode especially if i see the sub is a baby in SL years. I'll message and ask if everything is okay

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Although from all my training in domestic violence, i will tell you that if you ask a victim of abuse if they're being hurt, they will almost always say "no"

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right Kahlan

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And in the end, there is only so much we can do

 

[16:27] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): sometimes being a friend is all we can do at the moment if abuse is going on

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But this is the thing with CNC....it *appears* abusive...and it's hard to tell where that line from fun CNC to actual abuse is

 

[16:27] taryn (Taryn Topaz): sometimes they are unaware that they are being treated poorly, they accept the abuse out of their love for their Dom or they have been made to feel they deserve the abuse

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes good points!

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Goddess, y'all are so right on!  This is why I love doing this discussion! ♥

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All well said thank you!

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Ella!

 

[16:28] ella (ellabi Resident): thank you Vanessa and all

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok Kahlan let's move to your delayed comment!

 

[16:29] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): 1 -no, not in my wheelhouse in that I have experienced or have great knowledge but I do think there could be interesting implications. I see this is a lot of the dollification and pony by force which I could lean into with the right partner. But there are a lot of little moving parts that would need to click into place just so in order for that to be unlocked.

2 -Just like in anything with D/s or BDSM there can ALWAYS be negative outcomes ranging from small to scared shitless and never gonna try anything ever again. But this is again where knowing yourself and knowing the play partner you are with comes into play

 

[16:29] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): I also believe that CNC is making a RL ...resurgence (questionable word choice but its what i'm coming up with right now) with a lot of the New Adult fiction coming out. I've talked about some of this with Beau but the actions of the men/'doms' in those books is very much non-consensual in some areas but I can see where that would be fodder for fantasy and spark CNC conversations. I knot it did for me. Something I saw as off the table forever now has me thinking 'maybe, possibly, how much time do we have to plan and can i get nervous giggles and not kill the mood?' haha##

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As long as such things are fantasy and keep CNC *consent* at the top it's all good

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): My concern is like with the 50 Shades books and movies.....that it will give people that don't get what we do a rather warped view of it

 

[16:31] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its definitely a resurgence thanks to the Dark Romance genre of books becoming more and more popular. I'm seeing it as a return to the '50 Shades' crowd jumping in head first without necessarily understanding or knowing SSC/RACK/PRICK.

 

[16:31] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): Nods, and I think that is where some lines get blurred, especially with the stalking books, it becomes coerced and not blatant (I'm think specifically of the Haunting Adaline and LORDS books)

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we had to stop a LOT of scenes at the RL club when newbies with no knowledge jumped in

 

[16:32] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I've already seen in some of the book spaces (as a Kinky-Smut Author myself)  the Dark Romance Girlies posting things about Gunplay/Knifeplay including using loaded guns to penetrate and I'm like "NO NO NO NO!!!"   If you want to play with that - use a Rubber training gun that cannot fire bullets.

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yeah...ugh

 

[16:33] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): <<well trained book girlie, though, lol

 

[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <3

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've read actual victimization surveys where women say they were raped with loaded guns...this is First Life, not SL or a book...

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not in any way trying to equate safe fantasy with that

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but people with crazed ideas are out there

 

[16:34] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): And that is heartbreaking, cause had I not read it, my brain wouldn't have gone there at all. It was 'at gun point' not this was the object

 

[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Exactly Vanni -    Same with the DR readers who went all sexy time "He's sooo hot" about the Wade Wilson guy

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): why some women fall for horrible people like serial murderers is beyond me

 

[16:35] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): The 'danger' ?

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Richard Ramirez (the Night Stalker) getting real marriage proposals from women for example

 

[16:35] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): or "try it you may like it"?

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ugh

 

[16:36] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): grins at Miss Vanni...not that I encourage you to try it

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway done safely with a trusted partner as Kahlan said, have fun!

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  winks at Rachel

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I study crime too extensively to be one of 'em :P

 

[16:36] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident):  winks back to Miss Vanni

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kahlan thank you, that was spot on and well said!

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we got to taryn with a question I apologize for the delay.

 

[16:37] taryn (Taryn Topaz): What is this mirroring you spoke earlier about? I'm unfamiliar with this term in D/s lifestyle. #

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh!

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mirroring is when the bottom/sub "mirrors" what is being done to some degree here in SL]

 

[16:38] ella (ellabi Resident): its yummy smiles

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so if your avi is being spanked, you spank yourself

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone else can comment on any mirroring you've done

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or we can make that the next topic!

 

 

[16:40] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): Lovense is all I am going to say

 

[16:40] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Spanking, using a rubber band to 'snap' where a 'crop' hits, tugging your own hair during a hair pull..

 

[16:40] ella (ellabi Resident): only with Master on command but sponetous with others now and then....

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that *will* be the discussion topic in two weeks

 

[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): clothes pins, etc..    I swear one of these days I AM going to write my book "101 BDSM toys found in your Kitchen"

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): what it is, concerns, how to do it safely

 

[16:41] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): Strips comes to mind with a frying spatula and stove

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee yes!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but there has to be ethical background to it

 

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Love Bill Murray in that scene

 

[16:42] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): wooden spoon

 

[16:42] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): no burners going?

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): chainsaw....

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:42] taryn (Taryn Topaz): what? NO! *laughs*

 

[16:42] ella (ellabi Resident): no mirroring with chainsaw

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL

 

[16:42] ella (ellabi Resident): smiles

 

[16:43] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): that's a different kind of movie

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): truth!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So taryn thanks for the topic, we'll rattle that around more in two weeks

 

[16:43] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Texas Chainsaw Kink Club

 

[16:43] taryn (Taryn Topaz): my pleasure Miss

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOLOL!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): omg that's hilarious

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master Leatherface will now do his "demo"

 

[16:44] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): hey...take that to the northern clim in winter for Ice Sculptures

 

[16:44] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Takes on a whole new meaning from the film line "Such a good boy"

 

[16:44] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): Edward Scizzorhands

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):  snickers

 

[16:44] ella (ellabi Resident): 12 angry men

 

[16:44] taryn (Taryn Topaz): That sounded like a newb question but I swear I'm not new, just a little out of touch from hiatus. *giggles*

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The most..edgy..first life workshop I ever attended was one on..I kid you not...."forced clownification"

 

[16:45] taryn (Taryn Topaz):  looks shocked

 

[16:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It wasn't a noob question at alL Taryn ; I've beeninto Kink and online BDSM since the late 90's and only heard the term Mirroring the past two years

 

[16:45] taryn (Taryn Topaz): ahhh that makes sense, I've been gone about 4 years.

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): two guys in full clown outfits talked about it and then did a demo scene of forced clownification on a subby guy

 

[16:45] taryn (Taryn Topaz): thank you Sir

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): with makeup and horns and....yeah it was wild

 

[16:46] taryn (Taryn Topaz): wow

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I am not kidding either!]

 

[16:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I can imagine the scene "My what big shoes you've got..."

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hey as long as it's consensual

 

[16:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "Is that a Ballon dog in your pocket or are you happy to see me?"

 

[16:47] taryn (Taryn Topaz): clowns are not sexy to me!! *shakes my head*

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I aint' doing a CNC scene with Master Binky the Clown

 

[16:47] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): sthaaaap, Beau, lol

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:47] taryn (Taryn Topaz):  laughs

 

[16:47] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): #cringe

 

[16:47] taryn (Taryn Topaz): you say clown and I picture pennywise

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): they pointed out that as people often fear clowns, that made the scene that much more "edgy"

 

[16:47] taryn (Taryn Topaz): yep not sexy

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's not supposed to be sexy at all, taryn ;0

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Not 'sexy' but scary or even Humiliation can be its own sort of BDSM kinky fun

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right!

 

[16:48] ella (ellabi Resident): i get the question from strangers often "do you mirror?" the answer of course "yes but not with you" asking that before talking and communicating is a total nono

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): any final comments on CNC before we call it a day?

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok this was a great talk on a topic that gets a lot of questions

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you all for your excellent thoughts and comments

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): you are the reason I lead these things

 

[16:49] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident):  puts on a smiling yellow face and growls "Have a NICE day....bwahhahhahh"

 

[16:50] taryn (Taryn Topaz): thank you Miss Vanni

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:50] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): thank you all...another enjoyable Sunday morning

 

[16:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thank you Vanni!  it was a great topic and great discussion.  Thank you everyone enjoy the rest of your Sunday OR ELSE! (just kidding)

"Hyperspeed and D/s" -- October 5, 2025

[15:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): let's go ahead and get started

 

[15:37] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): Welcome back Miss Vanni

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as usual I have a bit of exposition

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so as I yammer, feel free to put in a C or a Q

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then we will go to the queue

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our topic today is "Speed Racer Collaring" *hums Speed Racer theme*

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a tendency in SL to move at what I call "Hyper-Speed"...

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Where people tend to throw caution to the wind and move into some form of relationship very quickly...much faster than we would do so in First Life, usually

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think I read somewhere on the SL forums that the average SL "marriage" (vanilla) last less than 45 days

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That makes many Hollywood celebreties look like the Buddha of relationship

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I'm sure we've known D/s arrangements that have lasted less than that time.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Two friends of mine did a collaring ceremony here...didn't even make a week...

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and, of course, there are many relationships, both vanilla and D/s that last years.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I want to be clear we aren't here to hate on anyone or point fingers.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are discussing more the *why* this happens here in SL much more than we see in First Life.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, my questions today are two:  1) why do you think people rush into collars here, either offering by the Domor begging by the sub, and 2) what effects do you think this rush has on both that couple (or more) having success, and does it ripple out to further relationships?

 

[15:46] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): C - I ran a club in RL for about a year in a large city and I would see arranagements come and go.  People would create quick D/s situationship

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): would they last?

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in general?

 

[15:47] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): I think some would turn into general relationships

 

[15:47] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): but I would say 25% success rate probably?

 

[15:47] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): SL maybe we see a ...I don't even know....5% success rate.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's pretty long odds!

 

[15:48] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): but it was a different level of commitment.  They weren't collaring, they weren't stating you are mine for now and always, they were saying-- we have vetted each other and we are going to.. idk... tie you to the spanking bench, spank you, and then provide aftercare and we are going to do that regularly.

 

[15:49] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): in rl 95% is the number of failed relaionships within 5 years

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so more like regular play partners than a real relationship

 

[15:49] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): but even doing that-- there was more upfront let's call it paperwork. People sat down to talk about what was in and out of bounds and they came to an understanding

 

[15:49] Rilan and Rilyn (Maslow Darwinian): Correct

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): smiles at Wanda and takes a coffee "Thank you!"

 

[15:50] Wanda Play (WandaPlay Resident): You're welcome, ma'am. -curtsies-

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): richard I'm not sure 95% of all relationships end in five years, but certainly most divorce happens within a five year spread from the wedding

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have no handy stats on D/s lol

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks Rilan and Rilyn!

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we will go to Rachel next please

 

[15:52] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): I can only speak from a sub/slave perspective.  There are a few reasons that may help understand why this hyper-speed occurs.

 

[15:53] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): The commitment is the surrender...submitting to the hand or collar of the Dom/me.

 

[15:53] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): #

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% I get that Rachel

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but here is the question...all that is valid...but why do we jump into things so fast here?  Wanting the connection and the security is part of human need, but it only takes days...hours...to do what takes weeks or even months in first life.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I mean I'm not gonna walk into my local RL BDSM club and take or hand out a collar 30 mins after meeting someone...or even a few days!

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Here we see that.

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I'm wondering why we throw the caution to the wind.

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Rachel!

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Someone dropped in an anonymous comment

[15:57] Coffee Discussion Tracker: Anonymous message: Is it a risk issue? In RL, submtting to the wrong person comes with a significant amount of emotional and physical risk. In SL, we don't hve the same inherent risks

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Aha!

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So is it fair to say there is less potential consequence here?

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will tell you this

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm a switch and have been both owned by a Domand I've had submissives here...maybe 8 over my 20+ years

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly ONE...ONE...has not ghosted me when they decided it was "over"

 

[16:00] Flo (Floreo Resident): wow

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All the rest just disappeared when they decided it was over.

 

[16:00] BERT (Bert Huntsman): I think the absence of certain RL consequences makes it easier to both jump into relationships AND terminate them quickly.

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): whereas anytime I felt I needed to ask for release I've never done that...always went and talked

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so yeah...people want to avoid consequence.

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bert sorry

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): let's go to your comment

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree 100%

 

[16:02] BERT (Bert Huntsman): Well, for example, I can always exit the game and cancel my account in SL. The consequences of doing that in RL are pretty dire.

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol truth!!

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there's no "reboot" here in first life!

 

[16:04] BERT (Bert Huntsman): Also, SL is so rooted in fantasy and imagination. There is very little to stop it running away with us. In RL there are more brakes on it. Not totally, of course, but more.

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agree....if you don't believe I'm really 25 and have gorgeous blond hair and perfect boobz in First Life then YOU have the problem! ;)

 

[16:05] BERT (Bert Huntsman): LOL

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I started in SL when I was five ya know...

 

[16:05] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): you age well

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you lol

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Bert!  Great comments

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Magnus you retracted, did we already get to what you wanted to say?

 

[16:07] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): You did. I was going to make pretty much the same comments.

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): you can always give it in a different way though!

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or add to it

 

[16:07] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): chuckles. All right.

 

[16:08] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I've been guilty of this myself. It takes months to earn my trust in RL. But in SL? Not so much. I'm a romantic at heart, so I find myself falling into or out of love very easily.

My theory is that the hyperspeed of the SL relationship has two components.

First, there's less actual perceived risk than in RL. One can make a commitment to another person with worries of getting pregnant, breaking up homes, and all that stuff that comes with an RL breakup or divorce.

Second, I feel that a lot of people who are seeking engagement in SL are trying to fill a need, and that need is, often, easy to find here. So, we jump in with both feet in an attempt to get the instant gratification of where we want to end up.

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a great comment!

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I am glad you gave it

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and you used a term I use in sociology classes:  immediate gratification

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): People want it NOW.  And then when it doesn't work out, off comes velcro collar and find the next one who will give NOW and BETTER.

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That can happen on either side.

 

[16:10] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): nods. Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but there are consequences

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we just don't see them.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All those people that just ghosted me....after I said "DO NOT DO THIS ONE THING TO ME"....each one hurt me terribly.

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because I was left with this feeling of "WTF did I do?  DID I even do anything?  Or were they just bored and went to greener pastures?"

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And it's why I never just vanish, it hurts the others.

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure breaking up sucks, but we need closure.

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so what you said is right on Magnus

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and then the lack of *perceived* consequence makes people into a sort of NPC "Mission Giver"

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so great comment, thanks!

 

[16:14] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): smiles.

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Other comments on the nature of warp speed, and why people jump both into and out of D/s (and vanilla) relationships here?

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh and Seli are you ready for your demo you mentioned?  we need a sub for a 3 minute collaring please LOL

 

[16:16] Seli (Seliara Elton): laughs

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): When you are ready for your comment Seli go right ahead!

 

[16:16] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): No risk, either, because the volunteer will just ghost her at 3 minutes.

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have my new account all ready!

 

[16:16] BERT (Bert Huntsman): grins

 

[16:17] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): gulps

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): When you see "Canessa Vannoli" come in next time you will know it's me

 

[16:18] BERT (Bert Huntsman): bursts out laughing

 

[16:18] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): snorts.

 

[16:18] Seli (Seliara Elton): I think one take I have is that I get the sense there are people who contextualize D/s and SL relationships as necessary to be these huge longstanding commitments, and I do think there is a value in people sometimes being honest and open to say "hey, I'm more in the mood for a hook up" rather than pretending to dive into a relationship they have no interest in following through on. Not every play session needs to be a marraiage proposal, and I do think we'd all benefit if more folks found healthy ways to communicate that desire. #

 

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): YES!

 

[16:18] BERT (Bert Huntsman): nods

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in my 13 or so years in the BDSM community in Southern California, I'd say 10-15% at most of people in clubs and the community are really looking for D/s.  Most are looking to hook up at a party, get an hour of solid S/M or something going on, then that's it .. go home.

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whereas in SL, having a Domor sub/slave seems the "gold standard"

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nothing wrong with that of course...but I think it leads to exactly what you said, Seli

 

[16:20] Seli (Seliara Elton): It's almost like some folks don't realize a casual hookup is an option.

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): People contextualize "D/s" as "we're having fun together"

 

[16:21] Seli (Seliara Elton): But like everything, it's all communication.

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or "romance" the same way for "hot sex" in the vanilla world

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly!

 

[16:21] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): sex? what is that

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well...it's when the couple want to be so close that a hoo-hoo-dilly goes into someone's cha-cha.

 

[16:22] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): lol

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or so I've heard....

 

[16:23] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): plugs his ears because of all the naughty talk.

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seli thanks so much for that great comment....well thought out!

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Imy you are up!

 

[16:23] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): grins and thinks "from a woman with last name Cannoli"

 

[16:23] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): (Sorry I'm late - the sleep, it calls to me, usually at the most inopportune moments lol.)  The thing about SL that I've always found fascinating - and I'm sorry if I'm repeating what's already been said due to my tardiness - is that people ~feel like things move faster here, but in some cases, you're just... condensing.  What I mean is... in RL if you were to spend 8 hours with someone, that might be split up over the course of 4 dates, hanging out for 2 hours at a time, over the course of a couple weeks, depending on your style of dating and availability, yeah?  In SL, sometimes, it's not unheard of to spend an 8 hour stint of time online, and in that time you can choose to hang out with the same person.  It's still 8 hours worth of time spent getting to know that person, talking to them, hanging out, etc... but it happened in 1 day instead of 2 weeks.  Sometimes, the time isn't truly 'faster', but the rate at which you can spend time together and the amount you can spend together is the part that's is –

 

[16:23] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast):  or at least feels - faster.  I dunno if that made sense - I haven't had the caffeine yet. #

 

[16:24] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): I agree Imy, everything seems more intense here

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a really good point Imy

 

[16:24] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): nods in agreement

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): same time in a shorter frame

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not going to marry a person in First Life after 8 hours of 'dates'

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no matter how long that takes

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in terms of days

 

[16:25] Wanda Play (WandaPlay Resident): I agree it's important to state expectations... "I'd like to be your pet for a day" vs "I'd like to see if we can be something permanent"

 

[16:25] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): grins.  Right, same.  Hell, I've only been married twice in SL in -checks notes- 17 years xD

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): you need to catch up!

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)

 

[16:26] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): You'll have to pry Master's ring off my cold, dead finger, I suspect :P

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sorry not my fetish, love :P

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): giggles

 

[16:27] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): puts away his knife. "Ahem, yeah. Not mine, either."

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and there are people that offer a collar or ask for one in 2 hours or less of meeting

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've told the story of how I met a Domme years ago, and like 45 mins in a chat she asked me to be #8 in her growing harem of 20 or so girls...or more

 

[16:28] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): I had someone offer me a 3 month contract on the first date "so we could get to know each other"

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I politely declined

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): did it have medical benefits and paid vacation, Isobel? ;)

 

[16:29] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): No, or I'd have taken it!!

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Imy

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Looks like Wanda crashed or left

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but she said "[09:25] Wanda Play (wandaplay): I agree it's important to state expectations... "I'd like to be your pet for a day" vs "I'd like to see if we can be something permanent""

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's fine

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to what you were saying Seli "Let's do this simple thing and see what happens"

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): do that a few times and move from there

 

[16:31] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): I truly wish more people would engage casually without making it awkward xD

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seriously!

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): what I've found is with casual hook-up play (or even just sex) is my partner seems to think that one time means they can "call" anytime they like

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I don't have that come up much in First Life BDSM stuff at the club

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): although I did have a pretty regular play partner for about six months, we clicked well, but only at the club

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): she wasn't like "Hey, it's Tuesday night, wanna paddle me?" lol

 

[16:35] BERT (Bert Huntsman): chuckles

 

[16:35] Richard (Richard2502 Resident): bad Miss Vanni

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bwahahahahaa

 

[16:36] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): I don't know. Having a text at 2 AM reading, "You up? Need to get spanked" would have me throwing clothes on in a hurry.

 

[16:36] spice 'imy' mcginty (Spice Enthusiast): takes notes

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): giggles

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not on a work night!

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): you have my 'number' Imy :P

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): any final comments on this topic?

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go for it Isobel!

 

[16:38] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): Yes, although pure play has its place, I think it's a shame because so much of the fun is in getting to know someone

 

[16:38] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): and allowing time for a relationship to deepen naturally

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it is!

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and it's just fun to spank/flog or have it done to you lol

 

[16:39] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): and then the intimacy is so much better and more meaningful

 

[16:39] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): #

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Isobel!

 

[16:39] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): nods. I agree, Isobel.

 

[16:39] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): thank you :)

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not everything has to have a collar or a ring attached to it

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just nice red marks and messed up hair and makeup

 

[16:40] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): lol

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which isn't even a problem here!

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone else?

 

[16:40] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): someone should do an "after" makeup

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oooo

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that would be great

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I bet something is on the mp

 

[16:41] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Complete with tear-streaked mascara.

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that I have seen!

 

[16:41] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): oh yes! although the transition might be a bit sudden

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it might make me cry for real!

 

[16:42] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): lol

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "I would have spent an HOUR on that makeup and it's....gone!"

 

[16:42] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): laughs

 

[16:43] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): maybe we need a few stages of disorder

 

[16:43] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): to bad there isn't a fade in/out of messed up make-up

 

[16:43] Isobel DeSantis (Isobel DeSantis): exactly!!

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): jinx!

 

[16:43] Rachel Aimar (RachelHolt Resident): smirks

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): give each other a coke or other flavored bevvy

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok then!

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you all for your participation here

 

[16:44] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Thank you, Vanessa. As always, a wonderful conversation.

 

"Does a Prior Sub Make a Better Dominant?" -- September 21, 2025

 [15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received; however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual, I have a short bit of exposition

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If any comments or questions come up as I yammer, just put in your C or Q

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today's topic is based on one we hear a lot in SL:  "The best Dominants are the ones that were submissives before."

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think I lost count using my hair how many times I've heard that concept.

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The theory goes that a Dominant who experienced time as a collared sub "gets" the submissive role much better.  The idea that "experience is the best teacher" is the expressed concept.

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Less commonly but at times, we also hear that a sub is in a better position if they spent time first as a Dominant, as they will understand the role of the Dom/me better, and know how both sides work equally (in theory).

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Others will counter that as the roles of Dominant and Submissive flow from something within, none of that is really necessary.  It is good to understand the other side, but it doesn't make one "better" in that regard.

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Of course, there is no "right" or "wrong" here...this is opinion

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, to make one thing clear:  I'm not talking about "switches" here, people that flow back and forth between roles. I'd like to know if having prior experience on the other side of the collar makes a person more adept at handling their role as a sub or a Dominant.

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, what are the thoughts of the August Assembly?  Does "prior experience" on the other side of the collar help, or is that not really necessary to be a fabulous Dominant or sub?

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mull on it a few then toss out the C or Q!]

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hey that rhymed!

[15:45] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): I would say it's pretty obviously true. You can't truly get into the experience you give someone as a dominant unless you have experienced submission. How necessary that experience IS, though, is not as obvious.

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a philosophical idea that only experience allows us to truly understand things.

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but what if a person isn't submissive at all?  Will that affect their ability to be a Dom/me if they need that experience to "grok" it, as Heinlein might put it?

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I said, I don't think there is one answer.  And as you pointed out, how necessary the experience is, is not as obvious.

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll see what others think!

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Wynter 

[15:54] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Experience can count for a lot. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another. That's not to say that someone who has never submitted can't be empathetic to a submissive, nor that someone who's only Dominated others is incapable of expert intuition. I imagine some do experiment, while finding their stride and I do think it could be beneficial. There are pitfalls though, and one of them is thinking that the style of submission you experienced is what will be desired by another you Dominate. (more)

[15:54] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): While this discussion isn't about switches, I will add that I believe they have a very unique perspective into this from a standpoint of constant experience of the shifting of roles. As an aside, I do appreciate the knowledge my switchy nature affords me. My submissive constantly states that I'm all knowing.. it's more that my ability to read them and know what they are going through as a submissive is informing what I do next.. well, that and neurodivergent pattern recognition but that could be a discussion all it's own.#

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ooo several good points!

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The thing I've often kicked around in my head goes like this:  is D/s really a binary? Meaning one is "either" a Dominant OR a submissive?  Many people in SL think so (which is why switches often get short shift as a switch)

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (yes that last bit was intentional... ;) )

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I reject as a sociologist that anything about human beings is binary

[15:57] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): nods in agreement with Vanni.

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and tend to see it as a continuum of being which can morph over time.

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if so, does more experience in the continuum mean better understanding of it?

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I dunno

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's what we are here to kick around!

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wynter, I am glad you found what works for you!

[15:58] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): ♥

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you for your contribution...and you as well Sousi, thank you!

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok let's go back to Jesseca

[15:59] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): promises is trying to be quiet... but sometimes cannot help myself... but would ad also if people are trying to find themselves they may try both sides of slash until they find one they identify with.

[15:59] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): I would say in my opinion yes the experience can be beneficial but it can easily be the opposite depending on the person's experience while it may provide insight it might also turn them off to the lifestyle if they have a truly awful time.

[15:59] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): done

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure, that's completely valid

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Human experience is varied and it's good to experience as much as possible in the 80 more or less years we get

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also SL allows a lot more of that experimentation

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is a good thing too

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think you're right that some people might be interested in BDSM on a mental basis (maybe see it in a movie or read it in a book) and then when they experience it...they find it's not their cup of tea

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I know that a LOT of people came to my RL club after the "50 Shades" movies came out....and they didn't get BDSM at all...and many were not willing to learn)

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "no, just because you came in the club in a vinyl dress and a $10 crop you don't get to do a scene until we're sure you're not gonna kill someone.."

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but that's really a different story ;)

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Jesseca!

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sousi, back to you please

[16:05] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): I consider D/s a spectrum. Both from my own perspective as a switch, and from long experience in BDSM. We are, both dominants and submissives, people who find power exciting. So yes, we prefer different roles, but we share more than divide us. Where we end up on the spectrum depends on other parts of our personalities. For myself, I find it hangs on whether I can feel confidence or not. Of course, that's my perspective. The divide isn't between dom and sub, not really. It's between us all and vanilla people.

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's a really good point, Sousi!

[16:06] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): No surprise the 50SoG tourists didn't fit in, is it?

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The power exchange requires two (or more) people who are confident in that role

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ha ha...*some* got the idea and a few are still around

[16:06] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): Yeah. Lots of people out there like power, and don't all know it.

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but most were just "wow, this is cool!  I can hit someone with this thing!"

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think, though, that how we experience BDSM and D/s is really personal.  I can't quantify it, nor can I say that anyone else's experience is "good" or "bad" unless it's obviously abusive.

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm glad Xaara is pretty much above the "ur doin' it wrng" kind of thinking

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sousi, thank you again!

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wynter back to you please!

[16:11] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): To bolster what Sousi mentioned about D/s being a spectrum. There are often times that powerful executives come home and surrender control. On the other hand, there are people who may be soft spoken with a heart for service in their day to day where they come home and revel at having their submissive at their feet. Another thing, although unrelated to the main idea of this discussion, is that there are folks who just like BDSM without D/s, but feel that they must incorporate it because they see others doing so. I was a masochistic bottom for years without wearing a collar in RL. So the B, D, and SM can be divorced from the D/s if someone desires and both parties agree. To tie that back into the discussion, perhaps in one's exploration they might not feel either role and thus may just be a top or bottom.#

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I've said many times, in First Life clubs (in my experience) the majority of people that go to a play party are Tops and Bottoms, not into D/s

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go, get our freak on, and then go home

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Maybe 10-15% are actually in a D/s relationship or looking for it

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whereas here in SL, D/s is the gold standard (people want a Dominant or a sub) and the play is part of that...of course that's generalized...a good number want just play

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and...it's not uncommon for people to go to a play party...Top in one scene...and Bottom in the next

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not that I've ever done that...oh no...*cough*

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I think that in First Life people do play on the spectrum until maybe at some point they find their comfy point

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which leads back to what you just said, Wynter

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent comment!  Thank you!

[16:16] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Welcome :)

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We will go to the head of the Dark family!  Johan please!

[16:16] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the concept of "You have to be a Sub, before you can be a Dominant" is a very old concept going back reportedly to the Old Guard Leather Community.   Though other members in the Leather Community have also come out and said that its not a Universal Concept, but maybe some of the Old Guard houses that used it as part of their protocols. 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You are spot on, Johan, the Old Guard leather houses do require *everyone* to start as a slave and work up to Master (which is a title that's not gender-restrictive)

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not familiar enough with the current leather scene, though, to know if that's still a strict requirement in First Life

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but perhaps some of the idea "the best Dominant was once a sub" comes from their practices

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One other thing you said...you have no desire to be a submissive....so I don't think that such a requirement that "one has to be a sub to be a better Dom" would do anything positive for you Johan...except maybe solidify your own Dominant personality :)

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, people that experiment, or willingly slide into that role...sure

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but like with kids...you tell a kid "do this" the first thing they'll say is "NO I DON'T WANT TO"  and then it's a wrestling match to get them to do it and they hate you for it lol

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks Johan!!

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Jesseca with a question

[16:26] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): Though I identify as being a submissive , I would also say I am not actively looking does that invalidate what I identify with because I do not have Dominant or I am not actively looking?

[16:26] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Not at all.

[16:26] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): thanks

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone can answer, no Cs please

[16:26] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): There are plenty of solo submissives, it's why we have a Personal Protocols elective class :)

[16:27] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): Dominant and submissive are not dependent on a relationship. =)

[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No, it does not invalidate you at all.

[16:27] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): that does Not in no way invalidate you :) there are plenty of ways to fullfill your submissive nature without one :) even here on the sim with assisting/serving the community

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't like the term "invalidate"...it sounds like we are turning a person into an "invalid" which is something we would NOT call anyone]

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's not pointed at you, Jesseca

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm commenting on the term itself

[16:28] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): just means you have an independant spirit

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with everything said

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Dominant" and "submissive" are characteristics of personality

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and as Sousi said, has nothing to do with current connections

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Being "a Dominant to a person" or a "submissive to a person" is a relationship and different from being Dominant or submissive by personality

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and goddess help us switches *giggles*

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "When I think about me I Domme myself"

[16:31] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): laughs.

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but you are you and a valued person, Jesseca.

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nothing "invalidates" us

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ever

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): unless it's abuse/crime maybe

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for the question and the responses!

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to you Wynter!

[16:32] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): A cheeky aside to what you said earlier Vanni, about one saying "No I don't want to!".. so long as it's not the revocation of consent, that's why there are brat tamers and those who enjoy conquest styles of Dominance!#

[16:32] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Or conquering* more accurately.

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha ha!

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes well, the Brat is a specific kind of sub-type ;)

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which requires a specific kind of Dominant

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and they have a consensual relationship that deals with it.

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hmmm...

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Do the best "brat tamers" then need to be prior "brats" themselves?

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a question anyone can answer minus a C ;)

[16:34] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I mean, I have heard folks say that Dominants are the brattiest of brats.. so that may follow in logic.

[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I wouldn't necessarily say 'prior' as one can definitely a currently Bratty dominant and tamer ;)

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!!

[16:35] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier):  snickers

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh, you both said the same thing!  You're joined at the corpus callosum!

[16:35] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  laughs.

[16:35] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm definitely in good company with Wynter :)

[16:36] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Assimilation is inevitable, resistance is futile. *Nods Sagely*

[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Or if you're the Kinky Dyslexic Borg, Resistance is futile, your ass will be laminated

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "We are the Canadian Borg.  Please prepare for your assimilation.  Would you like a drink while waiting?  To be assimilated in French, press 2"

[16:36] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): dies.

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): winks at Sylvie

[16:37] Pure Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): lol

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥s Canada

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Each person assimilated gets you a punch in your card...when you assimilate ten people, you get a free donut and coffee at Tim Horton's

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Dude I'd go for that...

[16:38] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  sighs, "Only a donut, I want timbits!"

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): You and your pals were assimilated the other day...

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok we are drifting...

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Wynter!

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Sousi for the last comment of the day

[16:39] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): Let's approach this from another angle: What situations that do not work well would be better if the dominant had experience as a submissive? I've seen a number of such situations, where the dominant is not open enough to what the submissive is showing. Where they can't read what the submissive needs in that moment. Letting uncertainty fester. Certainly, it's not always the case that it would have made a difference, but I think we've all seen it happen. Consequentially, then, a dominant who can do these things from the start wouldn't need submissive experience. I.e. one who has enough empathy to function well in their role.

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and communication

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Any relationship will falter if the people involved can't talk

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So a Dominant that says "you negotiated once, now obey" and never wants feedback is not getting what they need...unless the whole "consensual non-consent for good" was negotiated I guess

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but as a sociologist, I have issues with that kind of thing...for me

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If anyone has a comment on what Sousi said feel free to give it

[16:43] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think though that would still be dependent on the personalities of those involved. Just because the Dominant HAS prior submissive experience doesn't mean they'd be any more open to what the submissive was trying to convey. It could be a "Oh I've been through this, its not that bad"   or "Yes, I know it sucks - but I promise you its for your own good, trust me."       Those type of things would be personality and situational events regardless of experience in each role.

[16:43] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I think another thing to be considered is that if someone isn't a good read on another, that their ability to do so won't be enhanced by experiencing submission. I've met plenty of submissives who had no situational awareness, and even dominants and switches. I think that's exclusive of role.

[16:43] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Damn, Johan with the hive mind again.

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed with both!

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You both get Timbits!

[16:43] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): We need a podcast lol

[16:43] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Hahaha

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but Sousi you're right..a person with empathy and listens doesn't need a background as a sub.

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and to whatever level it helps is really "additional" to the practice of listening and correcting the course

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks, Sousi!

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll call it a wrap.  Thank you all for your contributions!  Enjoy the rest of the Xaara Festival!