[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and
welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:43] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): hi Callie ...
very cute bunny
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:43] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles
at Sydney. "Thankies!"
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual a bit of
exposition to start
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): feel free to put
in a C or a Q as I spout off and then we'll get into the queue
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Two weeks ago we
finished our Discussion of Discipline in the BDSM acronym
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Having gone over
Bondage two weeks prior
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So far the topics
have been Bondage (yummy), Funishment (yummy) and Punishment for behavior
modification (not so yummy)
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We now go to the
two ending letters in the BDSM acronym, S/M, Sado-Masochism
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we talk
about Sadism, in two weeks Masochism, and then will get into some sub-topics on
this
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism is rather
hard to understand for people IN our community, never mind vanilla folks OUT of
our community.
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's very
stereotyped. People think Sadism is some
of mad use of fists and pipes and what not to beat a subject into jelly or what
have you.
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That is not
Sadism, that's insanity in a legal description.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism is
obviously as a word derived from the Marquis de Sade, who was imprisoned for
lewd behaviors.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He was a
self-described "libertine" who believed that social rules were
nonsense and that one's desire for pleasure always trumps what society thinks
you should do. Anyone that has read the
published work "101 Nights of Sodomy" knows what I'm talking about.
[15:49] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): reading it was
torture enough
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And in that book
he hadn't really gotten to the nasty stuff he had planned (it was published
with the book as an outline only)...it's pretty horrible.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So while Sadism
certainly bears his name, we don't do what he suggested.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The online
Dominant Guide gives a clearer and more contemporary definition of sadism: "Within the BDSM community, the Dominant
is most often the sadist, and the
submissive is generally the masochist (who derives pleasure from
receiving pain). Also in the BDSM community, unlike most societal descriptions
in the medical and psychological community, sadism is widely accepted as a
healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to
a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual
pleasure."
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's be clear
about something here....while this above definition uses Dominant and
submissive, a Dominant does NOT have to be a Sadist to be a good Dominant, nor
does a submissive have to be a Masochist to be a good sub/slave. S/M and D/s are two different things.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A very healthy
D/s connection can have zero S/M in it.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or lots! It's the person’s choice!
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism is not
purely physical either. Different things
turn on different Bottoms, so one Bottom might like being hit with a paddle
until his or her ass and thighs are black and blue, while another may not want
any physical pain at all, but really gets off on being totally objectified and
humiliated in front of people.
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today our
discussion will be more keyed to physical sadism, and we'll get into more
specific types in the coming weeks.
[15:52] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): nods
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will ask
Dijanna if she would be willing to come by when we discuss Humiliation in a few
weeks
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): She's quite the
expert on that topic (no joking aside)
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or all joking I
mean lol
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One last thing
and then I will take comments. And this
is very very important.
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are NOT
discussing a psychological condition here where a person just acts sadistically
toward people minus consent.
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That is Sadistic
Personality Disorder, and its closely related cousin, Antisocial Personality
Disorder (although they are different in how they operate).
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So if Y/you see
some person going about saying they're a "sadist" who acts like a
total a-hole to people around them, they're not a BDSM sadist, they are a
person with a personality disorder that makes them into a thug.
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok with all this
said...are You a Sadist? Do you like
doing horrific, nasty stuff to S-Types that we...er....THEY like so much? What is it about sadism that turns us on in
this community? Or are you one that
avoids Sadism in relationships? What
does the August Assembly think about this topic?
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Miss Sara when
You are ready please!
[15:56] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Thanks Dollie
[15:57] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): While I am not a
Sadist, it is something that I am researching for my Adept candidacy.
[15:57] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): So I preface my
comment with that
[15:58] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I think the appeal
is the power exchange dynamic. At least
in part. It also can help a sub deal
with past traumas in a "safe and consensual" manner. I stress consensual in that.
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods
big time
[15:59] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Any D/s or S/m
activity must be consensual. It's safe
because the sub has the power to stop the scene if necessary.
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% Miss Sara
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd also add that
the Top doing the sadistic acts needs to keep track of their charge.
[16:00] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): YES!
[16:00] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): the Top absolutely
needs to watch and listen for verbal and non verbal clues
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a bottom/sub
goes into subspace during the S/M scene they may be floating in a sea of
neurotransmitters and can't safeword. I
find it unethical to continue a scene that involves S/M further.
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if that is
happening
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I can't speak
for everyone.
[16:01] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): nods
[16:01] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): 1000%
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Miss!
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sir RB please!
[16:03] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I agree with Sara's
points. I have myself zero interest in
inflicting pain of any kind. But I have
had subs who sometimes need to submit to a stronger, dominant power, to access
their submission fully. I am a service
Dom, and I am happy to provide that when it is needed for my sub to be fully
happy. I do confess, though, to enjoying
the feeling of ownership and control that comes from inflicting mild
pain/bondage/.... as a way for each of us to 'feel' the D/s part of our relationship.#
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's quite
lovely! ♥
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But yes, we also
need to remember that *Dominants* have limits and they should not be pushed or
manipulated into doing things that they find distaseful....but smaller things
done and found to be enjoyable can lead to potentially "bigger"
things....
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If you took me 15
years ago and said "Vanni, you will enjoy going to RL BDSM clubs and
smacking around Bottoms/sub" I'd have said "Oh yeah, right..you're
nuts."...now...*cough*
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or being beat on
occasionally *cough*
[16:07] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): smirks
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So Sir, I'm glad
You are happy to provide what Your subs need to be happy, and find happiness in
it! *passes over the single tail for His later consideration and winks at
Connie...8 :P
[16:07] RB (RBQuinn Resident): laughs
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You, Sir!
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Rune,
please!
[16:08] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): Thank you Vanni
[16:08] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): As a switch and a
sadomasochist, I can offer that the two sides of that coin. I hit sub space
with pain pretty easily, and completely forget where I am. To the point that as
has been mentioned by Miss Sara and others, it can be dangerous if the Top
isn't paying attention. When I top, I
look for those cues myself because I'm acutely aware of the fact that getting
lost in sub space can equal permanent injury. Verbal cues aren't even possible
sometimes. I have forgotten my safe work completely during S/m play when I was
bottoming. You have to pay attention to everything you are doing and
pre-negotiate how far the scene will go and end it when you get to that
point... sometimes even when the sub is wanting you to continue. I think
pre-negotiation is important with this type of play as it is for many types ...
but maybe even more so here.
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): YES!
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1000x YES
[16:09] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): nods
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's why my
rule is..."waiting for a safeword isn't usually safe"
[16:09] RB (RBQuinn Resident): beams
as his Fairy joins us
[16:10] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): nods
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And yes subs, you
not only can...you MUST negotiate the scene.
[16:10] - ̗̀
ღ
Žôę Mαɢιc ღ ̖́-
(zoemorning Resident): smiles
[16:10] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): wiggles
in her kneel at the thoughts.
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure with an
established partner that's been done, y'all know each other and where to go and
where to stop.
[16:10] Connie (Constanse Levenque): smiles
and squeezes her sisters hand
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But new play
partners....Negotiation is a 100% must.
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if a Top or
Dom says "real subs don't
negotiate, you let Me do what I want..."...RUN, not walk, to the nearest
exit.
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm sure no
Dominant in this room or most of Xaara is like that.
[16:11] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): smiles
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But IF you hear
that, run.
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's Sadistic
Personality Disorder speaking
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rune, thank you
for that, it was totally accurate and on point.
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥♥♥
[16:12] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): ♥
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Sir
Johan, please!
[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I never really
considered myself a Sadist, though I am beginning to realize that I perhaps do
have a somewhat sadistic side to me. I
don't enjoy causing pain itself; but I
do enjoy the control and domination and as my Sydney says I can be very
"Fiendish" and I enjoy playfully and not playfully, torturing her in ways she both dislikes and
alternately LOVES and craves from me.
I've been researching more humiliation play thanks to my Adept readings
on "Enough to make you blush" and "The Emotional
PlayHandbook" and I find that I am more enjoying the squirming and affect
the play has on my partners. Plus the
red marks from spankings and croppings look just SO damn sexy on mesh bodies
:) #Done
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):
YYYYyeeeeesssssssssssssss
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): has a
whole set of spank "clothing" for such occasions....*cough*
[16:14] - ̗̀
ღ
Žôę Mαɢιc ღ ̖́-
(zoemorning Resident): giggles
[16:14] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *quietly
blushes and smiles to her Master*
[16:14] RB (RBQuinn Resident): smiles
warmly across the room
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And yes, S/M does
not have to be physical...humiliation play is another option...and also has to
be done with care.
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We will get to
that in May.
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): looks
over at Sir Johan and Sydney and winks ;)
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Sir!
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to Miss Sara
please
[16:17] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Rune mentioned
permanent injuries. I have personally
witnessed a scene where the bottom had to receive stitches because the Top did
not stop until the Dungeon Master stopped her and she was escorted out while
the sub received medical attention. So
yes. It can happen.
[16:17] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Dominants at Xaara
take a vow to protect submissives. We
need to remember that vow when we play.
#
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): smiles
big
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Yes! Protect me!
I'm completely outnumbered! I
haven't a chance!"
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): giggles
[16:18] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): looks
for the cage
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I was watching a
scene at a play party once...and the Top was whipping a bottom tied to a
cross...
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): She slipped with
the whip and cut the girl's leg with it...not bad, but it started bleeding.
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the play stopped,
she unbound the bottom, cleaned and bandaged the cut when she was sure the
bleeding had stopped
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And gave her a
long hug and apologized
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then sat rather
dejected the rest of the evening, obviously feeling bad the play had gone
wrong.
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): BUT she acted
ethically and appropriately for the situation.
[16:20] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): nods
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I had a LOT of
respect for her.
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because, as You
said earlier Miss and Rune, the bottom didn't want to stop even with the cut.
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But that would
have been really wrong.
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So with Sadism
comes a LOT of ethics that must be followed.
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You Miss!
[16:22] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "So what you are
saying is 'With Great Sadism comes Great Responsibility' " Marvel
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): giggles
[16:23] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Ha!
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and hopefully
great paddles!
[16:23] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahaha
[16:23] Seli (Seliara Elton): Remember kids, it's
Spanker-Man with the hyphen, not SpankerMan or Spanker Man
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫
rimshot ♫
[16:23] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahahahahaha
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Does anyone else
have any comments on Sadism...what Y/you do or don't like about it, the ethics
of it, the methods of it...the FUN of it?
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do have one
question for Y/you...and you don't need to C, just answer if Y/you want.
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Vanillas think we
are nuts to do these things, and don't understand how we get any enjoyment of
doing Sadistic acts.
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): How can we best
explain ourselves so they "get" it if we enjoy it? Or should we even bother trying?
[16:26] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): ... It's just
another form of a 'love language'
[16:26] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): They won't
understand. I say don't even bother
trying. If they continue I say
"different strokes for different folks.
You don't have to enjoy or understand it but don't rain on the parade
just because you don't"
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Don't yuck my
yum!!!
[16:27] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Even in our
lifestyle there are people who don't "get it".
[16:27] RB (RBQuinn Resident): If someone were truly
befuddled and wanting to understand, I might make an effort, but my guess is
that is a very rare occurrence.
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it's sort
of like "The Matrix."....."What S/M is can't be
described.....you just have to experience it for yourself."
[16:29] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Exactly
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because what I've
found over the years RL is people who are curious come to the club, see it, and
if it appeals do it.
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One time there
were three college age girls that came to a party...one guy saw them and gave
them a tour and then a 'lecture' on BDSM in our 'classroom' play room complete
with desks
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 20 mins later the
girls were all naked being gives turns with spankings lol
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He was so
giving...such a teacher....*sniff*
[16:30] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): I once tried to
explain it as like going to the gym... it's hard, painful, exhausting, and
leaves you drained.... but feeling GREAT afterward
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yesssss!
[16:31] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i tried to explain to
friends who were not in the lifestyle and they truely can't - they love me so
they accept this side but they find me a little crazy and strange. it's not
possible to explain such feelings and ways to be
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree Eleonor
[16:31] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): It can be rather cathartic
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and relaxing
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I had a student
who was into the scene and her roomie would go for regular beatings at her club
before she could study
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it calmed her and
helped her focus
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But that's not a
'study aid' I put in my syllabi lololol
[16:32] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): My wife (non-BDSM)
goes into Subspace when she gets a tattoo..
I just liken it to that, the
endorphin rush from the 'pain' increases the pleasure receptors in some people.
[16:32] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahaha
[16:32] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): now i don't share anymore
even with close friends that i made after. This is my private garden and i
don't need to say all about me
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, Sir!!
[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Me? I hate pain lol
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There's pain and
"pain" Sir
[16:33] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Exactly Dollie!
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But we will talk
about that in two weeks when we get to Masochism!
[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *bows for providing
the perfect segue*
[16:34] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I'm a
caretaker. I don't enjoy inflicting
pain. I prefer to "heal" after
[16:34] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i think that there are
several reasons why we love pain and which sort of pain. What is the level of
pain that makes us labeled as " masochist "?
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll discuss
that in two weeks Eleonor!
[16:34] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): I love that question
[16:34] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): yes Vanessa thank you :)
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because that's
Masochism and needs its own topic
[16:34] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): that's a good
question.... what's the bar, at what point does one become a sadist?
[16:35] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): there's different
levels of sadism though
[16:35] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i "need" some
pain but i don't feel that i am a masochist at all
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's applying
the pain Lexi....the Masochistic likes *getting* the pain
[16:35] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): some of the nicest
people I know are sadists
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or the
humiliation
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or whatever it is
that the Sadist applies
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Master Laz is a
really nice guy but he's a rather powerful Sadist
[16:36] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): So is Seph
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And knows how to
get subbies that respond to that to jump instantly *giggles*
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yessssss
[16:36] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Exactly, so if a
top 'spanks' the sub, is that sadism? what if they usse a crop... hard
paddles... are bruises needed? What defines a 'sadist' in the BDSM context
[16:36] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): and she is the
sweetest woman
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes, no, the
application of pain and/or humiliation
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But there are
different levels Lexi...some Sadists like to say spank or pinch.,...others use
implements...some go to electric play and shocking
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd say I'm
moderate in my RL sadistic play
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I like impact
play alot
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I won't go to
electric play or anything that can do some real harm if not carefully
controlled
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have plenty of
Tops at the club that will be happy to do that stuff
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bandsaw
play....maybe...
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :P
[16:38] Tom (Zirsnveblis Resident): I work at the hospital
so we're very careful
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): OH!
[16:39] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): laughs
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's one
important thing to remember Sir!
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The Top needs to
ask the Bottom before the scene "Where can I NOT hit or leave marks?"
[16:40] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): YES!
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Like if a person
has a Doctor appt that week...might be best to not do too much that might leave
a bruise
[16:40] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): or even "can I
leave marks"
[16:40] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): nods
lots
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): An ethical Top
doesn't want to have the Bottom having to answer such questions.
[16:40] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): I guess I'm just
trying to see what general BDSM play turns to 'sadism' play. Most tops are
'mean' to one extent or anohter, and enjoy being so... and speaking as a sub, I
at leas tenjoy that 'meanness'... it's a sign of affection. But... What then
makes a sadist a sadist? is it the focus on suffering? either pysical pain of
emotional humiliation?
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The core of
sadism is pain...but here *controlled, directed, consensual pain*
[16:41] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I totally read your
Bandsaw play as "Banjo" Play and was thinking of torturing a sub with
Folk Music
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!
[16:41] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahahaha
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What if she likes
it???
[16:42] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): giggles !
[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Then you play folk
music WITHOUT a banjo!
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexi?
[16:42] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): too much of a good
thing Vanni?
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I like
cooking...so beat me with a cookie sheet, please....
[16:43] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): a slotted spoon is
better
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): looks
over at Miss Sara and wiggles
[16:43] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Do sadists ENJOY
seeing others suffer... talking in a BDSM contact, consensual etc. But... do
you actually enjoy when other suffer, even in a controlled and 'healthy' way?
[16:43] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): or so I've been
told *winks*
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok
[16:44] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): that is a very good
question Lexi
[16:44] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): It just seems to
me that 'suffering' is a key component to it being 'sadism' as opposed to other
kinds of play
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexi there is a
difference between a Sadist that yes enjoys administering pain and suffering to
a willing, consenting person...and a person with Sadistic Personality Disorder
that just likes hurting people MINUS consent
[16:44] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): yes, yes..
accepted
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd never hit
anyone out of the blue just for 'fun'
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but in a dungeon
setting, with a Bottom wanting to be smacked, spanked, flogged...YES I do enjoy
that
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): a lot
[16:45] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): I'm talking
about consensual suffering
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love watching
skin turn red
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I love watching
the bottom squrim and yell
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And here is the
key...BEGGING FOR MORE
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And that's the
key IMO
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hurting a person
who doesn't want it is twisted
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But a person who
does....and consents...yeah, it's fun to smack 'em around
[16:46] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): c
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I know it's
hard to grok the difference
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Eleonor?
[16:47] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): the definition of sadism
is when the person likes to inflict pain to non consent people, (you mentionned
SADE) so why the same word for two different things ?
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadistic
Personality Disorder
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): vs Sadism
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And as far as why
the word...well...it's been used for decades on decades
[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I guess we could
say "Sadistic Personality Disorder" vs "Ethical Sadism"
[16:49] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): in fact maybe saying
"consensual Sadism " but it is a little bit strange to my ears
[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): because that's
the real difference
[16:49] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): yes indeed :)
[16:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its also important to
notice that one is a Clinical Defintion the other is a general community
accepted definition :)
[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly, Sir!
[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone doing
something unethical or non-consensual is going to be removed from our RL club
[16:50] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): it sounds like a figure
of speech antiphrasis
[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and likely
blacklisted
[16:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Not really Eleonor;
its similar to "I have depression" (diagnosed) and "I am
depressed" (sad) They can be
similar things, but have two distinct differences
[16:51] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): the woman I
mentioned earlier was blacklisted. I
never saw her again
[16:51] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I will say the man
who received stitches was fine
[16:51] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Good definition,
Sir Johan
[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is why these
kind of discussions are so needed!
[16:52] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): listends carefully, nodding "yes Sir this
seems to be a good way to put it
[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So we in the
lifestyle community can hash it out and have understanding
[16:52] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): but those words are
misleading people outside of the BDSM community though
[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadly we can't
control discourse out of our reach
[16:53] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): THAT is definitely
true, but much of what we do is misunderstood by those outside the community.
[16:53] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I think before
engaging with a new play partner, part of the negotiation phase would be to ask
"You say you are a sadist, what does that mean to you?"
[16:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oooo good Miss!
[16:53] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): nodding
[16:53] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^5 Sara
[16:53] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): smiles
[16:53] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): It means different
things to different people. Even in our
lifestyle it means different things
[16:54] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I don't know an
ethical Dominant who would recoil at being asked such a question.
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And
again...pointed at s-types...if a Top or Dom is into things you are not, just politely say
no. No harm or foul.
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if they get
mad, run
[16:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's not a
Dominant, that an abuser.
[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So Lexi, there is
another differentiation
[16:55] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): This is also off
topic, but I wonder if there's a different mindset in BDSM from European to
American mindsets as well.
[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes
[16:55] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): There is Johan.
[16:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): to a degree in my
experience
[16:55] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): A person can be
'sadistic' without being a 'sadist' in a BDSM context
[16:55] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Angela is a good
example of that
[16:56] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): What I mean is,
even WITHIN a BDSM context, being sadistic doesn't mean your a sadist
[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I dunno Lexi,
that's splitting hairs IMO *giggles*
[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If I like
spanking someone, I am some degree of Sadist
[16:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But low compared
to someone that likes really hard scenes
[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so think of it as
a spectrum
[16:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Would you say Lexi
that the difference may be "being sadistic" means you are causing
pain/humilation to the bottom... being
a Sadist means that you ENJOY the causing of it perhaps?
[16:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a sociologist
I generally don't like binaries in relation to human behavior
[16:58] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): For me, from
what I've heard, a 'sadist' FOCUSES in on the consensual suffering and gets
excited by that... where as being a bit sadistic means that isn't the focus.
Sapnking someone may be sadistic, but not mean your a sadist.Similar ot the
difference between 'having depression' and 'feeling down'
[16:59] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i like that Lexi
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will always let
people self-identify and explain themselves, what we call
"accounting" in sociology
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but to me, that
is a false dichotomy
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if I like
spanking, I'm a sadist
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): maybe not as much
of a sadist as Poppa Electroplay
[17:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but still a
sadist
[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But that's how I
self-identify ;)
[17:01] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Lexi, I think it
really comes down to how the person
sees themselves. They can say they are a sadist or not. That's their decision. If they enjoy inflicting pain or enjoy giving
the sub what they need but not necessarily enjoy it themsleves. How they view who they are is
important.....Yea like Vanni said
[17:01] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): a sadist to the
same degree as someone who enjoys bruising and turning someone black and blue?
(done consesually, of course)
[17:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Is it because you
like the spanking itself or because you like the (enjoyable) suffering OF the
spanking?
[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I also would say
that as 'sadist' has some negative connotation in society, some might want to
avoid the term
[17:01] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): the real saddist maybe is
the one who doesn't inflict pain to the sub who needs pain ?
[17:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is also
fine
[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Withholding can
also be sadistic...
[17:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but then if I
promise something like a spanking I never deliver to a wanting subject...that's
abusive!
[17:03] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): grins
[17:03] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): yes the frontier between
sadism and abuse :)
[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): An ethical sadist
enjoys giving pain, physical or emotional, to a willing subject. A person with Sadistic Personality Disorder
likes giving pain to non-consensual people...that what drives them, harm to
people without consent.
[17:04] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): take care Tom
[17:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can't explain
it any better than that Lexi.
[17:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And it's not an
easy topic to fully get!
[17:05] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Lexi, it comes down
to ethics. If the bottom enjoys it and
the top enjoys it, then yay. if the
bottom doesn't, then it becomes abuse.
[17:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1000% Miss
[17:07] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): and what one might
look at as abuse, the people involved in the scene may not.
[17:07] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): I
understand that, I get the difference
between abuse and consent. I just... ether ALL tops are sadists or they aren't,
and if they aren't... what's the distinction?
[17:07] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): not all tops
are. I'm not a sadist
[17:07] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): so what's the
distinction
[17:07] Seli (Seliara Elton): You're wondering when it tips
from "dominant standard" to "actively sadist?"
[17:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think it's
better to say "Not all DOMINANTS are Sadists"
[17:07] Seli (Seliara Elton): Probably when the person
self-identifies as a sadist, if you ask me
[17:08] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I don't enjoy
inflicting pain.
[17:08] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): ONLY in a BDSM context
[17:08] RB (RBQuinn Resident): perhaps the distinction Lexi
seeks is 'motivation'?
[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A top, in BDSM
parlance, is a person who leads a scene.
[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which will have
some aspect of S/M play.
[17:08] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): You don't have to
be a sadist to be a Dominant
[17:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A Dominant
doesn't need to do that.
[17:08] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): but if that
scene is spanking... is it sadism?
[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I said at the
beginning, a D/s relationship doesn't need any S/M at all.
[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think so
[17:09] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i have same interrogation
than Lexi and will ask "what is the pleasure of the Sadistic Dom Man when
inflicting pain ?"
[17:09] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): why is it HOT for Him
[17:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or woman ;)
[17:09] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): yes sure sorry :)
[17:09] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): grins
"thanks Vanni"
[17:10] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): giggles softly "my
apologizes"
[17:10] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): I know I'm
arguing semantics, but I'm confused now as to what a 'sadist' is in BDSM
terms... as I'm heard it's prety much doing anything 'sadistic' makes it
sadism...
[17:10] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): I dunno, I don't
think I'm explaining myself well enough, sorry
[17:10] SylviaAurelia (SylviaAurelia Resident): sadist enjoy
the act of giving pain itself
[17:10] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): I do enjoy seeing a
red ass from a spanking. I even enjoy
giving a spanking at times.
[17:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The online
Dominant Guide gives a clearer and more contemporary definition of sadism: "Within the BDSM community, the Dominant
is most often the sadist, and the
submissive is generally the masochist (who derives pleasure from
receiving pain). Also in the BDSM community, unlike most societal descriptions
in the medical and psychological community, sadism is widely accepted as a
healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to
a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual
pleasure."
[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's the
definition
[17:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So...inflict
pain, one is some kind of sadist.
[17:11] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): laughs
"then by that definition I am a sadist, but I'm not really"
[17:11] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): exactly my point
[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol
[17:12] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): giggles
[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Obviously we
aren't going to get to a definition that everyone will accept
[17:12] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): That's why I
think you can be 'sadistic' withut being a sadist
[17:12] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Lexi, Is it that
you are thinking that being a sadist is a pathological thing?
[17:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so we'll leave it
as "everyone can self-describe" themselves and leave it at that.
[17:13] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i'm not satisfied with
that
[17:13] SylviaAurelia (SylviaAurelia Resident): its sounds a
bit like you might be a sadist, but find that the term has negative
connotations so don't like to think of yourself as a sadist.
[17:13] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): No, but if
someon describes themself as eithe being, or not being a sadist, I want to have
a reasonable expectation of what that means
[17:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which is fine
[17:14] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Sylvia, referring
to me? I don't think sadist is a
negative at all. It's just not how I see
myself
[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do not think,
Lexi, you will get a definition that will satisfy you, though. ;)
[17:14] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i mean, when the person
self-identifies as a sadist that doesn't mean that it would reach other's
people perception of a sadist , and maybe they don't have all the same image in
their head of what a sadist is
[17:14] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Lexi, then the best
course of action would be to ask that person what they mean
[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I like hitting
people at the club. I'm a sadist. That's it for me.
[17:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have no issue
or problem self-describing as a sadist.
[17:15] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): So does that
mean, by definition, the term 'sadist' is largely meaningless?
[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol
[17:15] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Sorry, I'll
stop.... I'm sorry
[17:15] SylviaAurelia (SylviaAurelia Resident): A sadist is
someone who enjoys inflicting pain.
[17:15] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): No it is not
meaningless. It just has different
meanings to each individual
[17:15] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): nodding
[17:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Maybe we need to
bring in Wittgenstein
[17:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (Austrian
philosopher of linguistics)
[17:16] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): Every Dominant in
this room right now could give you a different definition of what it means to
them.
[17:16] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): yes
[17:16] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): and for that
matter, probably every submissive too
[17:17] Seli (Seliara Elton): "It's when you are more
"sade" than the others. Hence you are sadist." *nods nods*
[17:17] RB (RBQuinn Resident): I agree. But that kinda proves Lexis' assertion of
'meaningless'
[17:17] SylviaAurelia (SylviaAurelia Resident): in terms of
the type of pain or suffering thaat they personally enjoy inflicting, then yes,
everyone is different
[17:17] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): this is so interesting to
go deeper into a concept !
[17:17] (Coffee
Discussion Tracker): Thank you for attending this discussion.
[17:17] (Coffee
Discussion Tracker): The tracker is now off and the floor is open to everyone.
[17:18] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Hence my
confusion over what a sadist actually is in a BDSM context.
[17:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well I gave you a
definition ;)
[17:18] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think I've decided
I'm going to start calling myself a Sade'ist.. Because I'm more a Smooth
Operator and No Ordinary Love(r) than deranged French Libertine from the 1800's
[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): giggles
[17:19] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): words can have
different meanings. That doesn't make
the word meaningless just because people have various definitions of the word
[17:19] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahahaha
[17:19] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): laughs
softly
[17:19] SylviaAurelia (SylviaAurelia Resident): the word
isn't meajingless, it means to enjoy inflicting pain.
[17:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's like
"driver'....that usually means 'of a car' but can also connotate of a
bicycle, of a scooter, of a golf cart...
[17:20] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And its also
important to note that definitions can adapt and change over time too.
[17:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so context does
matter
[17:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but *in general*
an ethical sadist enjoys giving some kind and manner of pain to a willing,
consenting subject. That's the general
understanding.
[17:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): WITH the proviso
that every person that uses a word is subject to their own socio-psychological
understanding of their Self and the word used
[17:21] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): for me that doesn't mean
a lot when someone self-identify to anything even if we need words, there are
so many subtleties and also it depends what is the knowledge of the person who
uses it. It is like the word "slave" very difficult to have a clear
image of what it is. (i am speaking into the BDSM context)
[17:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I won't argue
different uses as I'm not another person.
[17:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We don't have
real "slaves" anymore
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but we still use
the word in a bdsm context
[17:22] SylviaAurelia (SylviaAurelia Resident): there are
plenty of real slaves in the world.
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But ask ten
slaves what "slavery" in such a context means ... each answer will be
different
[17:22] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): i would answer
"sadly we have" but this is another topic
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh yes, but
here...LEGAL slaves
[17:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's is
outlawed
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Understanding
people are certainly enslaved
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Illegally
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): See...context
matters!
[17:23] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): in some countries this is
legal sadly the way it is done
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And with that we
will conclude!
[17:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you all so
much for such a compelling discussion on Easter Sunday!
[17:24] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Take care
everyone! Enjoy your Sunday, Easter,
Ostara, Passover, 420 if thats your thing or any/all the above.
[17:24] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): smiles "thank you so
much for all that food for thoughts !!
[17:24] Lexibunny (Lexisevertied Resident): Thank you for
the discussion, Vanni. I appreciated it, genuinely
[17:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And we'll be back
in two weeks to go at it again with Masochism!
[17:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *hugs Lexi*
