"Discipline: Punishment and Funishment!": March 7, 2021

 

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: today we go back to a topic we had more than a year ago, which is the notion of the "D" in B/D, or Discipline

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: I have some exposition on this before we throw the floor open, or throw people on the floor, whichever comes first.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Punishment is a tool in a D/s relationship for the breaking of a rule that has been negotiated between the Dominant and the submissive.  Any rule within the agreed upon limits of the relationship needs to be obeyed, so a punishment is to stop a behavior that is not desired.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Punishment is different from reinforcement in the way that punishment is to *stop* a behavior, while reinforcement is to *continue* a behavior.  To be more confusing, both may be either positive or negative.  That drives Psychology 101 students nuts, but is a topic for another session.

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: In behavioral science, we don't talk about "reward and punishment," but rather "reinforcement and punishment"

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: For a punishment to have the desired effect, it must have three qualities:

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: 1.  Swift -- administered as quickly as possible after the infraction to connect the act to the punishment

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: 2.  Certain -- it will happen, not may happen.  If punishment is not certain, the submissive will feed that he/she can get away with things, and the Dom/me isn't very serious.

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: 3.  Proportional -- a minor infraction should provoke a minor punishment, and a major infraction a major punishment.  Irrational punishments are simply confusing.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: "Fun"ishment, on the other hand, is to set up a scene.  There is no actual rule breaking being done, it is agreed upon that the "infraction" is an act to drive the scene.

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Notice the scare quotes around "infraction"

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: An example of "fun"ishment might be something like this:  Imagine a Dom/me calls the sub in the afternoon and uses an agreed upon phrase.  When the Dom/me comes home, this happens:

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Dom/me:  Why are you wearing jeans in the house, I told you to wear a dress when I get home. (winks)

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Sub:  I didn't feel like it!  (winks back)  Whatchya gonna do?

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Dom/me:  I'm gonna peel those damn jeans off and beat your ass red, is what.  Come here...

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: And so it begins...

[08:19] Ballard: Good rule!

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: As we can see, no actual rule was broken -- the Dominant used a phrase the sub knew to mean , 'wear jeans tonight, and you're gonna get it...I'm in the mood.' So whatever happens next is simply the scene.  If the sub had really had been told not to wear jeans, and just did it anyway, it would be proper to actually punish the sub.  But this is just "fun"ishment.

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: So, to open the floor, do you use punishment and "funishment?"  How so?  Can we mix these up if we are not careful?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: We start with Master RB....please go ahead Sir!

[08:21] RB Quinn: Quality 4:  Both parties should agree the punishment was fair.  (and since you ask, yes... I use funishment and yes, it is important NOT to mix up what is happening in any given case. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: I completely agree about Quality 4, Sir.  In fact, it's inherent in the idea of proportionality.  If the punishment is seen as excessive or lacking, it loses inherent rationality.

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli teaches a lot on deterrence theory in class...

[08:23] Vanni Cannoli: As a follow up, Master RB, what do You see as a problem if there is a mix-up with punishment and funishment?

[08:24] RB Quinn: The punishment would not be effective, and the funishment would not be fun

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Good points, thank You Master RB!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Becky, we go to you!

[08:25] Becky Summerland: thank you ma chérie ... ♥

[08:25] Becky Summerland: Positive reinforcement is pretty much how I train ponies, it doesn't work with everyone, as some need to be punished, or forced, but, i prefer not to work with them... that being said, positive reinforcement is so rewarding for both trainer and pony as we are always looking at the bright side... it's never "you've done badly or wrongly" its more "I know how together we can do better and reach our goals". It creates a safety bubble where one can concentrate on competing with oneself instead of always worry about how to do the 'right' thing, or even what the 'right' thing is. I am not sure i really believe in punishments, even if they may be needed, to me, they are most often the result of miscommunication... Let your sub know what is expected, keep an eye on them, use active domination and then you won't need to go to extremes.#

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: I had a boss many years ago when I worked at Barnes and Noble who said he didn't believe in "positive reinforcement."  He figured that coddled people.

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: You can imagine our store had a lot of turnover, more than normal for retail.

[08:27] Becky Summerland: I bet it created a rather negative athmosphere?

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Very!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: He just believed in "negative punishment," taking away your dignity if you made him mad.

[08:28] aneczusia666: Q What kind of punishments is good if a person has experienced punishment combined with mental and physical abuse during childhood?

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: I think he was transferred to B&N #666 in Hell

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Master Ballard please!

[08:29] Ballard: I will say that misbehavior leads to a discussion.  If something is going on that I don't like, we need to talk about it, as adults, and work out a new path forward.  I really no longer 'punish' as a tool for behavior modification.  If a talk does not work, then our problem is deeper than any physical punishment will correct.  All of that said, sometimes a behavior rule, such as having to be gagged for a day, can be  both amusing, and, because it is a pain in the ass, it can help to remind.  I also encourage my submissives to talk to me if they are unhappy about something I do, or feel they have a need to express.

Funishment, oh yes.  Spare the rod, spoil the fun.  #

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: LOL!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: I love that maxim, Master Ballard!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: See, all You describe, Sir, is what a healthy set of relationships is about

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: I also agree that most punishment can be avoided if clear rules and goals are present.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: If not all.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: The only times my parents really punished me was when I decided to be a little shit and buck their rules.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Simply because I thought "that will get them!"  Ha!

[08:32] Ballard: well, also

[08:32] Ballard: Sub or D, if something is eating you, talk about it.

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Yes!

[08:32] Faith Darrow is offline.

[08:33] Raven: and really LISTEN

[08:33] Becky Summerland: and listen when your partner talks, don't cower away

[08:33] Ballard: Then have sex

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: Good points, thank You Master Ballard

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: Ok Ane you are up

[08:34] aneczusia666: Ok. What kind of punishments is good if a person has experienced punishment combined with mental and physical abuse during childhood?

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: In my opinion Ane, any punishment has to be carefully administered

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: and really, it's better to find the root cause of the behavior that is driving what is making the person in authority upset

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Why is the person bucking rules?

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: In my case as a girl, it was to be a shit and make my parents upset.

[08:37] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell nods

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: So whatever the issue, the punishment needs to be rational and carefully selected.

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Now when dealing with an abused person, the punishment needs to be even more carefully screened

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: And really what needs to be seen is if the trauma of the past is not resolved, and so THAT is what really needs to be dealt with, rather than the outward behavior.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Because re-traumatizing a person is simply going to hurt, and cause more damage, and do nothing worthwhile.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: CC, did I do well? :)

[08:39] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: In the context of a D/s relationship, punishments and pop behaviorism can be fun but in real life, they show poor results. It all boils down to motivation , of which there are 2 kinds. Intrinsic and extrinsic. First life research consistently shows that intrinsic motivators are far superior in both short term and long term outcomes and are based on the satisfaction one gets from being good, competent or what ever.

Extrinsic motivators are rewards and punishments that are external to person. They tend to only have short term results that are contingency based, that is, only done for the reward. Punishment tends to teach the subject that the goal is to avoid punishment. So do what you like and don't get caught.

Extrinsic motivators are not just inferior but they also undermine intrinsic motivators

[08:39] Kurt™: not to mention the damage that can come to the partner

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Well said CC.

[08:41] Brianne: that is genius!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Also it should be remembered that a submissive wants to obey, so if they're not obeying, something is wrong somewhere.  Find the cause.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: That doesn't give a sub license to be a shit though.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: As Master Ballard said, talk.  Bring issues forward so they can be resolved.

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: If a sub is afraid to talk to their Dominant, there is a REAL problem there.

[08:42] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I love what Sir said and what you said about diagnosing the underlying problem

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: I hope that answered the question, Ane?

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Drachena, please

[08:44] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: Binding, restraint, spanking, cages, and similar, all of these things are in the "funishment" category for me.  I do these things because we both enjoy them.  I tend to consider any of these things more a reward (or reinforcement) than a punishment.

For punishment, the method can be very varied.  As already mentioned, a discussion is the best first action.  In D/s communiction is absolutely vital.  Often, for good subs, like mine :), the expression of my being displeased is enough.  Since they want to please, knowing they have failed in that is punishment in itself.

For more serious or repeated infractions, my favored method is denial; denial of something the sub wants.  If the sub is social, denial of contact with others, especially myself, is a very effective punishment, but overused this can also be pretty cruel, so moderation is key here.

Ironically, I sometimes see some Dom/mes threatening a bratty sub with a spanking if they don't behave.  Admittedly, I don't fully understand that dynamic of D/s,

[08:44] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ:  but, isn't that reinforcing the bad behavior?  I welcome any enlightening comment on this. #

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Denial is what we call "negative punishment," or removing something liked in order to effect the punishment, Miss.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: and it does work rather well, although as you said, overused it just comes across as cruel

[08:45] Ballard: Spanking is pure funishment.

[08:45] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα nods lots

[08:46] Glitter Bee Trouble is offline.[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: "Positive Punishment" involves adding something NOT liked in order to punish.  But if the sub LIKES the spanking, it's hardly going to invoke punishment.

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Rather, it should be positive reinforcment -- IF you behave then you will get spanked!

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: whoo hooo, win/win

[08:47] Brianne: I'll behave then!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Good girl!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: All very well said, thank You Miss Drachena!

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Sir Kurt, please.

[08:48] Kurt™: I have a chart that I use in my clinical practice that I think helps distinguish between punishment and discipline that I will post here.  In the spirit of full disclosure, I got most of this from a book on parenting that I have adapted to my practice.  Here is the chart….(you may need to widen your chat window)

[08:48] Kurt™: .

                         Punishment                Discipline

 

Purpose          To inflict penalty      To train for correction

                       for an offense           and growth

 

Focus              Past misdeeds        Future correct acts

 

Attitude           Frustration and        Love and concern

                      disappointment

 

Subs feelings   Sadness regret       Secure and love

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Oh I like that a lot, Sir!

[08:48] Kurt™: My style is not to make up a reason or a pretext for funishment.  I just do it, when I feel like it and when we are both in the mood.  It makes it more exciting for both of us.  That doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally let her know well in advance, sometimes days in advance, that we will be doing some sort of funishment.  The anticipation can be almost as exciting as the scene, just as spontaneity can be exciting.

[08:48] Kurt™: Like Ballard, I don’t punish because we are well suited for each other and I have never had an occasion to do so.  If it did come up, we would talk through it.  I do believe it is important if the submissive feels she has done something wrong that there is sufficient discussion to allow her to feel forgiven so that both the dominant and submissive can move on.  There should absolutely be no lingering feelings of disappointment, regret or anger.#

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed, Sir.  It's always useful to mix things up.  Keep 'em on their toes.  And everything You said is 100% on point.

[08:50] Ballard: That chart is great, Kurt

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: I think it is a human trait to keep past faults in mind though, it is easy to go that route, maybe more so for women than men?  "Remember nine years ago, on January 5th when you said?..."

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: Very good points, thank You Sir!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: So CC do you want to do make a C or a CC here?

[08:51] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: I think punishment in general is wrong but I especially feel that making love contingent on good behavior is all wrong. Mistress Zati and love each other unconditionally, no matter if we make mistakes with each other, the love is still there.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Well there is a philosophical thing here, but I really don't think that love can be contingent on behavior.  I think behavior either increases love or can reduce it via hurt., but to say "I will only love you if you do X" isn't really more than a cop out.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Brianne, next please

[08:55] Brianne: I'm not sure if this is on topic but I think I would benefit from a clear regime of punishment and reinforcement because I do like structure and to obey.  By the same token, if I disappoint my Dominant, and it shows in their tone, that's usually more punishment than I can take.  People who know me know that I can be reduced to tears from just that.  I doubt that's the best reaction.  Maybe that can be trained away, idk.  Can anything be done about that?  I would like funishment, punishment, and discipline to be most effective too, as would my Mistress. #

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: Having grown up in a world of Italian Catholic guilt, I can tell you that it takes little more than hearing "You did that wrong" to stick a knife in my chest

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: So I agree 100% Brianne

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: I think the best "punishment" is to have a person think about what they did, and then explain why they did it, and to talk about the expected vs actual outcomes.

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: "Did you really think that was going to work?  Couldn't you have found a better way to deal with this?"

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Talk about that

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: When my students screw something up, I don't yell at them, that would do nothing, rather I talk to them about why whatever it was happened so we can resolve it.

[08:59] Brianne: but...

[09:00] Brianne: if I know I disappointed, how do you difuse that so I CAN listen?

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Well, that's a consequence, Brianne.  Which in my mind is different from a punishment.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: A makes B happen.

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: We can talk about it at a time you're not emotional.

[09:01] Brianne nods, that's sensible.

[09:01] Raven: i would say something that points out the positive along with the negative

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: I think a whole workshop on this might be beneficial for the community

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli adds that to the long list of Seraph duties I have

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead please Master RB

[09:01] RB Quinn: Elli insists on some physical punishment as a way to clear her mind, and get past the guilt she feels.  It is not enjoyable for either of us, but it does seem to 'work'.  #

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Ah but that is what she needs.

[09:02] RB Quinn: yes

[09:02] Brianne: I can see teh wisdom in that Sir.  It gives a tangible finish.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: It's a corrective measure that brings closure

[09:02] RB Quinn: nods.. It took me a while to accept it, but... yes... it is good for us.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Some time ago we talked about rituals in D/s, I would see that as one.

[09:03] Brianne nods

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: All well said, Thank Y/you!

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: we need to move on

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen, please!

[09:03] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,

I have been on both of this rod.and either you love it or hate it. I hate punishment, but it does make you know what you have to do because it is what the feelings you have in yourself. It hurts me to know that I disappointed my Master and then I feel the guilt. Writing it and thinking about what you did does work.

When you can have makeup sex . Then you know you being carded for.

The thing is that you have to have the follow through on both side.

I have done that and now I have the parents after me and saying how mean I am when I give the kids the options to get there work done and not take it home for homework and don't get it done.

 

.

 

P.S. I need this for school also about my kids misbehaving. Thank you.

 

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: I think that making a person face their misdeed, and then tell the other how they expect to correct it is a really good tool!

[09:05] Aspen Diamond: I am going to have a meeting tomorrow and this is going to help me talk to my principal.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: Putting the expectation on correction back on them makes them work.

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: I"m glad! Be sure to tell them that your BDSM community is really helping you to deal with the kids! ;)

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: WE go to Miss Raks, please

[09:07] Raks: I think when you have a deep and longer term relationship with someone you know a nd fee instantly when they are feeling playful and 'funishement' can come naturally.  If you don't know someone well you need to set it up before hand which feels lumpy and prearranged.  I like spontaneous things with people I know well - it works better for me:)  With the the right person I love to please and have never been punished.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: I think of "funishment" as an RP tool really, which isn't what everyone does in their D/s relationship

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: it's fun to use in an RP scene

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: like the kinky lawyer that "funishes" their client who can't pay, etc.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Not that I've ever done such things of course

[09:09] Now playing: Beth Orton - Anywhere

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Only perverts do stuff like that.

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli hides my lawyer suit

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli also hides the enema nurse outfit...

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Ahem

[09:10] Kurt™: i use the same suit when I am a lawyer, a used car salesman, an undertaker an........

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli giggles

[09:10] Candice Svenska: deputy i more official ...just sayin'

[09:10] Raks: Hehe

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Miss Raks! :)

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Miss Raven please

[09:11] Raven: those who know me know that i am a gentle and loving domme, in such i dont like to punish physically or by denial really.... and any one with me knows that the worst thing i can do is say "you disappointed me".... #

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: That...THAT is just like the Cat Stevens song, Miss.  "The First Cut is the Deepest"

[09:12] Vanni Cannoli: I think most S-Types would agree that hearing that would turn us into puddles.

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thanks Miss Raven

[09:16] Vanni Cannoli: ok CC I think you have the final comment for the day

[09:16] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Sorry if I back up just a little bit but about the idea that hurtful behaviors can lessen love, I'm not so sure about that, it can create hurt and lack of trust but I don't think the quantity of love can be diminished on a contingency bases. It's just what I feel. People who I love who have wounded me don't make me love them less in fact the hurt is there because of that love.

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: As I said, CC, it's a philosophical thing

[09:17] Vanni Cannoli: We could do the entire Plato's Symposium on love and still not figure it out :P

[09:18] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: we would yes which is why I bring to my own experience, as to what I feel

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: Any final comments on our topic?

[09:20] Vanni Cannoli: Then thank Y/you all for coming and making our Sunday morning discussion group fantastic!  Remember there is no Weekend Wrapup tonight at 9PM (unless that changes).

"Bondage": February 21, 2021

 [08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: I also have a bit of exposition before I start taking comments or questions, but please feel free to put Y/yours in anytime

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So a year or so ago we went over the three parts of the BDSM acronym

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Today we start part one, "Bondage/Discipline"

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: We will probably spend two to three weeks going over that, then move to the next.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: So today we start with Bondage.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: To quote Wikipedia, which knows all, Bondage "is the practice of consensually tying, binding, or restraining a partner for erotic, aesthetic, or somatosensory stimulation. A partner may be physically restrained in a variety of ways, including the use of rope, cuffs, bondage tape, or self-adhering bandage."

[08:14] RB Quinn: Duct tape????

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli waits for the grins, hand-wringing, and happy sighs to diminish

[08:14] Whyiman: cable ties

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Oh yes, Sir. Bondage Tape, I have two rolls of pink tape in my toybag

[08:14] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: somatic is the body in case anyone was wondering

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Now, bondage is often an act in and of itself, meaning that the people involved will do that as a scene in itself

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: At my First Life club, there are many scenes where a person is tied in some way, such as suspension, and that's the scene, and the act in and of itself puts the bottom into subspace

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: We have some people that are into mumification

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: getting wrapped in plastic wrap except for their mouth

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: and sometimes that is mixed with suspension

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: we have a nice winch with a bar for exactly that

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So the bondage in and of itself might be the goal of the scene

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: or it might quite obviously be mixed with some S/M activities

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: such as typing and spanking, or locking a person on an X Frame and doing "horrid" things to them

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: In fact, this is how a lot of people get involved with the scene in the beginning -- bedroom games that involve getting tied up and then sex happening

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: Then it just moves from there to bigger and even better sins

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: But you gotta sin to get saved, so sin boldly!

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: and of course, there is a lot of safety involved with this, which we will discuss toward the end

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: But first I'd like to ask our August assembly two questions:  1) Do you do this (First or Second Life)?  2) What joy do you get from it, as the Top or the Bottom in that particular scene?

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: oh and I guess #1 also includes, "If so, what techniques do you enjoy"

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: So question two is more philosophical than practical

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: #1 is technique and #2 is "why, what gets Y/your motor going"

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: As Top or Bottom

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: We'll start with Sir Ballard, please go ahead when ready, Sir!

[08:23] Ballard nods and leans  in to talk.  "Talk about sin.  Well all this talk about bondage is clearly some weird kinky stuff, and we all know that is wrong!  I would never do such a thing.  When a woman asked me to get kinky with her once, I tied her up, whipped her and played with her body..."  voice trails off.  "Gagged her."  nods and starts to get flushed.  "I had to do that to her daily, just to make my point."  He smiles.  "All seriousness aside, bondage is foreplay to me.  It starts things, and gets my motor running.  Bondage has only rarely been the main thing itself, but a scene is rarely complete without it."

I like posts, and cranes, yard stakes and handcuffs.

Shibari is an area of study for me, but not a focus of my play.

It almost always ends  in sex.  #

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, Sir!  And for a lot of folks in the scene, Bondage is part but not all.

[08:25] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: Took the words right out of my mouth there, Well said Ballard.

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: I did watch a rather interesting rope scene done at the club -- the Top tied his girl to a cage with a rope on her *tongue*...she then had to stand on tiptoe or the rope would pull on her tongue

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: that was the whole scene

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: he kept her there until she looked at him and blinked her eyes five times, then he released her, tongue first

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: it was pretty interesting, and she was a puddle

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: lol

[08:26] Ballard: Nice

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: went about ten minutes

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: But yes, I get how You see it as a piece of the puzzle Sir, a lot do!

[08:26] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You for Your comment!

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB, your comment please!

[08:27] RB Quinn: I have enjoyed kinbaku shibari since I first heard about it.  Over the past year I have gotten more into the process of tying, the interaction with the one being bound and the closeness it can engender, rather than just the static beauty of the final pose.  Of course, playing with the bindee is still a great joy *smiles warmly to his lanky,lovely lass and folds her tightly in his arms* #

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: I've never actually done shibari, but watched it, and I agree Sir, the art and the intimacy of it is really amazing

[08:28] Alessandra Doria is offline.

[08:28] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: Nods to Sir RB

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: So I am glad You and Your charges enjoy that, Sir!

[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: We goto Miss Drachena with a question.  Please go ahead, Miss.

[08:30] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: This is question for the subs.  If, when being bound, you wonder, for even a second, if you fully trust the person binding you, to what degree does it ruin the experience?  I've always been curious about and I like to hear the different opinions.

[08:32] Becky Summerland: its a question of building prior trust... I adore being tied up.... I have an amazing roper in FL, that I miss dearly because of covid, but we met for many coffees and increased the intensity of our visits before I fully let him tie me up and make me completly helpless, by then, I had no doubt I was safe... or...

[08:32] Taree: One reason I left Gor is because you get tied up a lot, then nothing happens.  Very frustrating!  In SL the danger is a big part of the appeal.

[08:32] Becky Summerland: as I told myself the first time I realized I was completly at his mercy... the worse that can happen is I will die, so enjoy...

[08:32] Candice Svenska: lol

[08:32] Becky Summerland: hence, that question is never an issue when the steps are respected

[08:33] Becky Summerland: #

[08:33] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: Thank you Becky.

[08:33] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: here or rl, id not put myself in that situation unless I truly trusted the one doing the binding. for if there was even a hint of doubt, not only would it not be enjoyable.. it coudl also result in something bad as well #

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: I can say having been bound a few times at the club *cough*...for science of course...that there is a bit of a mental trick.  On one hand, one knows that something bad could indeed happen -- you are at the mercy of another person.  On the other hand, the mind also knows that the chances of that are remote, so one can delve into the scene.  But there is always that "watchful eye" in the back of the head going.

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: but if subspace hits, all bets are off

[08:36] Candice Svenska: can say with a smile have always had complete trust, never once even thought of using my safe word..smiles back over my shoulder

[08:36] Ballard pets her hair

[08:36] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: Thanks everyone.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Miss, that was a really good question.

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Brianne, you are up please!

[08:37] Brianne: I love all techniques, probably, but I think but ropes and tape rise to the top of my list.  I like predicament bondage, or ridiculous amounts of it.  Mummification and tight cages.  Or just simple cuffs for a long while (especially elbow cuffs alone).  I've only done the less complex stuff in RL.  But maybe wishes do come true...

[08:37] Brianne: Bondage works in RL and SL differently but it always works.  I melt at the loss of control, the dependence, and the hint of danger.  It can also be extreme comforting to be bundled up and helpless in the hands of someone that will protect me.  And when I see someone get pleasure from capturing me and toying with me, I feel so happy and purposeful!  I feel like the work of an artist., my body molded my ropes or devices, my speech and actions limited, turned into something for display.  The power exchange has so many possibilities.  Bondage and sensuality go hand in hand. #

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: As I think it captures the idea of the Bottom's reaction so perfectly

[08:39] Brianne: I'm... I'm 'into' bondage, I guess.

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Well aren't you just the little pervert

[08:39] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:39] Brianne: YAAS!

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Nice to meet you!

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: I had to go to "Perversion Anonymous"

[08:40] Brianne winks to fellow clubmember Vanni

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: "My name is Vanni, and I'm a pervert."

[08:40] Brianne: "It's been 12 months since I did anything vanilla.!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Oh you get your handcuff cake for one year of avoiding vanilla!

[08:41] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: and remember, call your sponsor anytime to come tie you up if you feel like you're gonna go vanilla

[08:41] Brianne: check!

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: omg this is great idea

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: anyway!  So well said Brianne!

[08:42] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Cryolynn please!

[08:42] Cryolynn Dulce: I've done light bondage in 1st and much heavier here, what I love about it is being so completely helpless towards someone I trust and love. I get enjoyment out of that feeling that they could do whatever they want and knowing they won't abuse that.

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: Nicely said!

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent!  Great comments today

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Ballard has another comment, go ahead please Sir.

[08:45] Ballard: As you mention trust, and subspace, let me add this.  I and I alone have to be responsible for the safety of my bindee.  I need to feel that she is safe, has good circulation, and will not suffer lasting harm from my efforts.  Once a person gets into altered head states, that is even more important, as they often have a diminished capacity to express concerns.  Even in SL, where the physical risk is not existent, I still will ask, and check.  This becomes much more important if the sub is doing any mirroring.  I always want to know if they are.  All of this adds up to expressing your desire to respect the safety of your partner, and this builds trust.  Tops need to keep that in mind.

#

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli cheers and will go bake Master Ballard his favorite cake after this

[08:46] Brianne: Extremely wise, Sir Ballard.

[08:47] Ballard eyes Vanni, imagining her trying to cook while wearing hand cuffs.

[08:47] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, everything You mentioned Sir, is exactly what is important about any bondage scene

[08:47] Candice Svenska: wonders if apron worn?

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Well Maggie Gyllenhaal was able to do coffee serves in "Secretary" while wearing an arm binder, so I suppose it's possible

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Aspen please

[08:53] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni,

When I started out in Real was being tied up on a four poster bed spread eagle. Then it went to being leashed tied to with enough leash to do the house work. Then I knew when he got home I would be tied to the X-cross to be flogged. Being tied does put me in my mind set of being a sub and have complete trust. I have had rope corsets on and being hobble like a horse. It is a freedom to be getting out of my head and my mind on my Master to meet his needs and do it for him. It is complete trust with that Master who is tying you up. He has all of the tools for getting you out of it if you do panic or needing to safe word.

I have always had rope on me which I alway prefer. It has been over 14 years for me not being tied in Real. I do love bondage too.

When I left Roissy there was a Master there and he knew what I needed at the time. I had known him at Roissy so I knew I could really trust him. Like Master Ballard is safety first and most. I was very glad that this Master could take me to

[08:53] Aspen Diamond:  complete subspace and out of my head. I think that was one mindset that started me on this adventure path here at Xaara. Bondage does do something to you  and I do like the feeling of safety with a Master who I can turn over all of my control expect for safewords. to him.That is what makes a good Roper is the Master is always watching and reading the sub.

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: You realize, Aspen, you just rattled off every bondage bunny's Christmas List?

[08:55] Aspen Diamond: Know wonder why Rope bunnies falls for their Masters.

[08:55] HB's Phoenix: mmmm rope

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: That's really cool....I'm sorry you haven't had First Life experience for a while, but at least you get it here

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: And you definitely know the joys of it

[08:56] Aspen Diamond: Thank you

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: You mention leashing, and sometimes it's easy to forget that a "simple" leash can be such a turn on, First or Second Life, that feeling of being owned and controlled

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: it is a form of bondage, but a subtle one

[08:57] Vanni Cannoli: I'm sure that no one here likes leashes, right?  *grinning*

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Or does it give you a new "leash" on life?

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Drachena again, please!

[08:59] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: For me, bondage and sex are completely different things, and one does not necessitate the other.  They may be combined, but the bondage is the act itself.  I enjoy the control, of course, but also get pleasure from knowing that the bindee fully trusts me and derives pleasure from it.  The acknowledgment of that trust and control builds the intimacy of the relationship.  That intimacy enhances any sexual act that might come after, even though I may not do anything sexual, because denial is also an enjoyable form of control for me. #

[09:00] Brianne: omg, you're fantastic!

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli grins at Miss Drachena

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: You have the technique down quite well, Miss!

[09:01] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell looks around at the puddles that used to be submissives

[09:01] Brianne: *laughs*

[09:01] Brianne: I think Miss Drachena said what every sub wants to hear from their Dominant.

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: I would like to ask the Dominants in the room a question please, and You can just answer, no "C" required -- is it the control You get over the bottom/sub in bondage that is the real turn on, or the look of it, or both combined?

[09:03] Ballard: It is mostly the control, and the willing submission to the control.

[09:03] Ɗʀᴀᴄʜᴇɴᴀ: There is definitely an aesthetic to the bondage so I would have to say both.

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: I would say, as I tend to top a lot in First LIfe, it's really the look of it for me, although I know it does more for the bottom.  I just like being obeyed when I top.  Like I'll put the bottom up against a frame and say "you move your arms until I say so, we stop."  and I do, which just gives me more control bwahahahaahahaaha

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: but it does look nice to see a bottom cuffed...raaaawr

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: *if you move your arms until I say so

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Aspen

[09:06] Becky Summerland: I live the same in pony play Vanni, an obedient pony is an amazing gift and reward for the time invested

[09:06] Becky Summerland: I live the same in pony play Vanni, an obedient pony is an amazing gift and reward for the time invested

[09:07] Aspen Diamond: Gigging at Vanni so you are a control top.

[09:07] Aspen Diamond: I want to add that it is the control that I would be giving to the Dom/Domaa the trust I would have if they were doing knives on me also. It is that same feeling as a sub you get.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: I am NOT pantyhose, thank you! ;)

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: although tying up a girl with her pantyhose is actually quite fun

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: um

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: for science

[09:07] Brianne: ba-dum bump, Vanni

[09:07] Aspen Diamond: Could not help myself Vanni I love you

[09:07] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: c

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Knife play is one of the ultimate acts of trust, Aspen

[09:08] Aspen Diamond: done

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: it's certainly not for everyone

[09:08] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: For me it is a huge turn on, however that also has to do with the chemistry and how the sub is reacting in the moment. Watching that as I manipulate the situation is a great joy for both the Master and the Sub.

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, Sir :)

[09:08] Brianne nods nods

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: By the way, just to be clear, knife play does not equal blood play

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: in knife play there is some scraping but NO cutting, if a cut happens, the scene stops immediately and the cut is tended

[09:09] Candice Svenska: absolutely

[09:09] Aspen Diamond: No it does not Vanni mean blood play

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: Although I'll tell a funny story to close

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: A well known, long time domme in my first life community LOVES both knife play and mindfucking

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: so in a scene, she blindfolded the bottom and starting doing knifeplay and scraped her skin with the knife

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: then poured some warmed, red tinted honey on the scrape and said "whooops"

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: so the sub takes off the blindfold and went into a short panic as Miss D licked it off

[09:12] Aspen Diamond: OMG wonderfull Vanni Giggling

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: to be clear, they *both* were laughing in that scene

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: once the intiial shock came off

[09:13] Candice Svenska: hahaha!

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: she wouldn't have done that with anyone she didn't know and hadn't played with before

[09:13] Brianne: days later

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: Give Miss D a chance to mindfuck you...she will.

[09:14] Vanni Cannoli: Any other comments or questions on Bondage?

[09:15] Vanni Cannoli: We are back next week to go over Discipline, and our favorite dichotomy...Punishment vs Funishment!

"Love and D/s, a Special Valentine Discussion": February 14, 2021

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: And Happy Valentine's Day!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: So today, as it's the Day of Love, I thought we'd chat about how love fits in our D/s paradigm.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: I think a lot of people in the lifestyle here in SL are looking for love with kinky, D/s stuff....while in First Life, at least in my experience, most people are looking to get their S/M kink going and relationship is far less common.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: both are 100% fine of course

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: So I thought today we'd chat about how we connect love with D/s lifestyle activity.  And does it have to be stereotypical "romantic" love?

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Can a Dom/me and Their Sub or Slave love each other in a way that does not involve romance?

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: It's a very open ended idea to connect love to how we do things.  What do you all think?

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Upton, You are first please!

[08:16] Upton O'Goode: No though what is romantic to one may be different than what is romantic to others. some may want roses and others may want thorns but both would fall under " a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love"

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: Agreed Sir!

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: In fact one of the standard books to give to people new to the lifestyle is "Screw The Roses, Send me the Thorns!" Oddly enough...

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: So good point, Sir!  Each person determines what that means.  Thank You!

[08:18] Vanni Cannoli: Amber, you are up please!

[08:18] ღ αмвєя ღ: In a word, "no"...  but it is nuanced - is it possible to have a *different type* of romantic love?  I think it is - but there will always be the cross-over that comes with a deep and close relationship, and I hope we wouldn't argue that submission at depth isn't close.  Of course, the fact we have SL can change things to - I love my husband to death but come to SL for something else - I love a lot - and know that I will be able to love here too (but I don't want a second husband!!)  #

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: The Buddha used the analogy of the candle to explain how we can love and care for each other...no matter how many candles we light, we never lose the flame.  So I think love is like that.

[08:21] Vanni Cannoli: We go to Taree please

[08:21] Taree: What is love?  Love is a feeling of trust, safety, intimacy.  I love my Master.  I think about him throughout my day.  He is a central figure in my entire life, both SL and RL.   I think that D/s without love would be a shallow and empty attempt at cheap thrills. 

I also love others here,  I have a degree of those feelings for at least two other Masters.  Without my love they really would not be as important to me, nor would I feel my submission as keenly.

And my sister Elli is one I trust, and gain a huge sense of belonging from.  I love her in a different way, but no less deeply.

D/s is the long term style of relationships.  D/s is what we live, where BDSM is what we may do.  I think D/s is a structure for love to flourish within. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: Oh very well said, Tarree!

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: And we move to Sir RB!

[08:26] RB Quinn: I would not dream of forcing my own view on anyone else, but to *me*, D/s kink without some degree of love sounds awfully ... transactional and, again for me personally, drab and uninteresting. And.... no, Taree and I did not consult in writing our comments!!  *kisses Taree and whispers "I love you"* #

[[08:29] Vanni Cannoli: ok let's move on, thank you Sir RB!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Tann, you are up please!

[08:30] Tann Stormhaven: If this doesn't make sense I blame still not being all the way awake but... Love is a fun emotion and when combined with the intensity of a D/s dynamic can create experiences that go beyond simple emotions and into something I can only describe as sacred. I don't think that love needs to be part of a D/s dynamic any more than D/s needs to be part of love, but I think when the two are combined it creates a very unique experience for all involved. One of the things I struggle with personally within a dynamic at times is figuring out how to express love in an effective way.. I have learned that for me "defining" the love I feel for someone I am in a dynamic with is important. For example I can love a slave and want the best for them but I would not say I have ever been "in love" which is a giddy emotion for me..... hope that makes sense.

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: OH it does, Miss!

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: Andin fact something I'd like to get to after comments on this opening round.

[08:31] Brianne: You're speaking of "connection" Miss?

[08:31] Tann Stormhaven: yes anne

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Sir Peyton has a comment on what Miss Tann just said, so go ahead, we "promote" You, Sir!

[08:32] Peyton Menges: I think the same can be said about sex in general - sex as a pleasure delivery is great, but when combined with the emotion of someone you love - it's more intense, mindblowing.  It is how open relationships can work naturally, in my own experience.  #

[08:32] Peyton Menges: and thank you for promoting me!  *puts on a Captain's hat*

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli: I agree Sir, sex and love are connected deeply!  So D/s can have that connection as well.

[08:34] Tann Stormhaven: wait D/s and sex are two different things?

[08:35] Tann Stormhaven: I think I've been doing something wrong....

[08:35] Vanni Cannoli: We go back to Taree for a double dip

[08:35] Taree: I want to say that I have heard some people say that love is the road to monogamy.  I feel a need to dispel that myth, please.  I love my Master, and know of his various adventures with other submissives.  I love it!  He is an energetic and exploring mind, a good soul, and he loves to meet new people, and sometimes have intimacy, and feelings for them.  I am the same, in my way.  My deep love for my family does not at all exclude the pleasures of other partners, or lovers.  If anything I feel safer because I have roots, a foundation to work from.  I feel that the love we share is a basis for our open nature.  It works for us, at least.  As Master says, we all have to do it in our own ways. #

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Taree, thank you!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Aspen please

[08:38] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni, It is the emotion of love is contained in so many ways. You have a love for your moms and dad and family members. Then you have love for deep friendship with others. Then the Man and Woman. That is where the D/s or M/s comes in because you can be working at work and have a happy throught of your mate. Not sex but why he/she would make you smile or giggle out loud. It is so much deeper for an every day ocurence

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, exactly Aspen, there are many different kinds of love

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Like the love we have for parents which (hopefully) isn't the same as that of a spouse

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Well said, thanks

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks...CC your comment please?

[08:41] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell: The first reading material I read to educate myself about D/s were the two books written by Dosey Easton and Janet Hardy, Topping and Bottoming, give to me by of all people, my Hakomi therapist. In those books they discussed all levels fo BDSM but what they did emphasis is that the lifestyle and things done within it, were ways that it breaks down boundaries so dominant and sub can  achieve a closeness and bonding that transcends what is achieved in most vanilla relationships. 

In my present relationship, I am experiencing what is romance, not just with my Mistress but also with her sl partner and her submissive. I submit to Miss Lauren when Mistress Zati is not there, which is a lot of the time. I spend time with her submissive Shondra who loves to submit to me. But in the this context we have to work to maintain boundaries between what I have as my Mistress's submissive and our other relationships in the family. I had a discussion with her about making special time, when we don't stop what we're doing to

[08:41] Consuela Hypatia Caldwell:  invite Miss Lauren to join us. I asked her to evaluate how important is our time and what we're do with it. I asked if there is instances where what we're doing is important enough to ask Miss Lauren to wait until we are finished. I'm her first really serious submissive in sl and we do have a very romantic relationship, so I know values our time together. That said, I love my family.

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: OK thank you CC and Aspen

[08:45] Vanni Cannoli: Let's move to Signore Antonelli, per favore

[08:45] Anthony Antonelli: I am a high protocol Dominant. I identify more as a Master but took on the roll of Daddy for the first time with my Sy… because I love her and thats what she needs. For me - I have to have romance in  my relationships. I love love love D/s but am not a big fan of BDSM. That may confuse some so let me try to explain. For me D/s is like an old fashion relationship. Its where a Dominant tries to out sacrifice a submissives submission; its a beautiful dance. To put it bluntly, fucking is easy.. anyone can do that anytime they want in todays day and age.. it takes very little effort. But, finding real friends is difficult; finding a submissive worthy of the effort I put into a D/s relationship is even more rare. So, when I find these people, I work my ass off to keep them… for they are worth it. … Love takes effort and its well worth it! I luv you Sy.. Happy V-Day /done

[08:46] Vanni Cannoli: Wonderfully said, Signore, molto grazie!

[08:48] Vanni Cannoli: Let's go to Brianne please, go blondie!

[08:48] Brianne: Listening to you all, I've had a small revelation that you all seem to understand already.  We don't *really* love a *person*.  We love the relationship between people, the meaning of the other person in our life.  It's easier to say that we love a person but it's what goes on between us that defines the love, whether vanilla or D/s.  That's why we can cherish so many variations on that theme. #

[08:48] Tann Stormhaven: bingo

[08:49] Brianne: enough games

[08:49] Vanni Cannoli: hmmmm...I'll have to think about that.  Would you say then that people are interchangeable, Brianne?  IT's the relationship, not the person?

[08:50] Brianne: no, the other person is the other end of the bridge, a unique spot, so it can't be interchangeable

[08:50] Vanni Cannoli: Love is the connection to the other person

[08:50] Brianne: yes!

[08:51] Vanni Cannoli: and so that bridge is unique to them, but it can be many bridges leading to the same person (me or another)

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: Ok so Sir RB removed his C, Sir Upton did You have a comment?

[08:52] Upton O'Goode: It is like we love how that person completes us and how we complete that other person . much like two puzzle pieces. so not interchangeable at all #

[08:52] Brianne: I write object oriented software so i see things as objects and relationships all teh time.

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli wants to write a method to get at Brianne's hidden data

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: object PANTIES { string MINIMAL;}

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Well said Sir Upton!

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: I like the analogy of the puzzle pieces

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks to you Brianne

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Aspen please

[08:55] Aspen Diamond: I have a Question to Sir Anthony, I am very confused about what the D/s Baby Girl? I was that I was also a baby girl. In Real I see these women carrying stuff toy's sucking on their thumbs. That is what I see in the different of baby girl with a daddy dom. I am very confused and if someone could help me understand the differences I would really  me Please do. # to answer Master Upton is When I was married that is what people said about my husband and I that we completed each other he was my 100% at that time. I would love to find another man who can complete my 99% to make another 100%.

[08:55] Vanni Cannoli: Not every Babygirl is a Little, Aspen

[08:55] Anthony Antonelli: typing a response

[08:56] Vanni Cannoli: Those are related but two different things, Sir Anthony's reponse will be clearer

[08:56] Upton O'Goode: Daddy Dom/Babygirl doesn't equate to age play or even childishness.

[08:56] Sy Antonelli: Agrees

[08:56] Tann Stormhaven nods

[08:56] Brianne listens intently

[08:56] Taree: It is an entire topic all its own

[08:57] Aspen Diamond: So it is the littles and not the baby girl. The baby girl is the touching and feeling of each other. Right the Romantic side Right? Smiling

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Let Sir Anthony answer that then we'll move on as I don't want to go on a serious 580 degree tangent into this topic today lol

[08:58] Now playing: Moby - Porcelain

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: As it's a topic better served on its own

[08:58] Aspen Diamond: Please forgive me Vanni

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Go right ahead please Sir

[08:58] Anthony Antonelli: I cant speak for other DDs. But as I said when I gave my reply… for me, I am very much into D/s and am high protocol. Which means, to me, that I will not enter into any D/s relationships, regardless of how its defined, with out a written dynamic that was negotiated and agreed upon by all parties. We have regular dynamic meetings and run what I always believed to be a typical true D/s house with protocol, rules, punishments, etc… I hope that helps /done

[08:59] Anthony Antonelli: brats need not apply lol

[08:59] Aspen Diamond: Thank you very much Sir Anthony it does clean up a lot for me thank you .

[09:00] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead Sy

[09:00] Sy Antonelli: For me, being a baby girl has nothing to do with wearing pink, sucking a pacifier or carrying a stuffed animal.. although I do have tons of stuffed animals lol.. (giggles) but it just about who I am as a person.. my personality and how I view and see life.  In my D/s relationship, its still very high protocol.  I believe we strive towards TPE with all we do, but its just like any other relationship where personalities effect how we interact with each other on the day to day.  That really doesn't sum it up completely at all lol, but maybe helps? *yes I am not a bratty girl either.. thats a diferent type of personality*

[09:01] Vanni Cannoli: Right

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: Thank you Sy!

[09:02] Vanni Cannoli: So I'd like to leave Y/you all with a short story as a final thought on this

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: In Plato's Symposium, the playwright Aristophanes gives a monologue on Love

[09:03] Vanni Cannoli: In his story, when humans were created, we were literally bound to another person, we lived back to back with them.

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: the Children of the Sun were two men bound

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: the Children of the Earth were two women bound together

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: and The Children of the Moon were a man and woman bound together into one being

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: Well humans got all haughty and full of Hubris

[09:04] Vanni Cannoli: And so Jupiter split us into two

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: and sent our other to the opposite end of the earth

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: So now we live our lives looking for our other, to put ourselves back together

[09:05] Vanni Cannoli: and Love is when we find that person, and can reconnect to them

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: I love that analogy he created, that Love is the desire and the means to be whole

[09:06] Vanni Cannoli: "The pain that brings a straight line back to the heart"

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: So however that connection works, it's the connection, that deep love.  It could be vanilla, could be D/s, could be anything

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: but it makes us whole.

[09:07] Peyton Menges: Reasonable analogy, Vanni - thank you for that.

[09:07] Taree: I am whole with him

[09:08] Tann Stormhaven: indeed Vanni well done

[09:08] Taree: Thank you Vanni.  Great topic!

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli reads a lot

[09:08] Vanni Cannoli: Thank Y/you all for coming, and please remember to send some love to the Sim via the tip jar on the bar

"Kinky Games": February 7, 2021

 

[08:09] Vanni Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Where we discuss altered states and altered submissives!

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: Before I open the discussion, let me post the usual header:  Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: We generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.

[08:10] Lisa Summerland: "Let loose the dogs of BDSM and let the games begin!"

[08:10] Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[08:10] Vanni Cannoli: While we are a chatty group, lots of extra chat makes it "noisy," so if we can please keep that to a minimum, it would be very appreciated, thank Y/you!

[08:10] Becky Summerland: laughs

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: The blog for this munch is:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/   It holds the archive for our munches here starting Jan 3, 2021.

[08:11] Vanni Cannoli: So as today is Super Bowl Sunday, which means 1) watching a football game, 2) watching commericials and 3) eating and drinking horrible but tasty food...

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: I thought we'd have a discussion on games in BDSM

[08:12] Ballard: You forgot eying cheerleaders.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: Not "being gamed" in a negative way, but coming up with fun and exciting games.

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: That too Sir!

[08:12] Vanni Cannoli: And trying on exciting underwear

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: BDSM affords itself to all manner of fun "games" to play.

[08:13] Vanni Cannoli: Dungeon games are a usual favorite, coming up with a way to make that flogging or spanking into a game.

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: Or doing a D/s sort of game, where the sub has to perform tasks in a particular way (tied up, nude, nude and tied up...) etc

[08:14] Brianne laughs hard at "(tied up, nude, nude and tied up...) etc"

[08:14] Vanni Cannoli: One guy in my First Life community made a "Wheel of Doom" -- in a scene the bottom would spin it and get whatever that was...a spank, a flogging, blindfold, etc

[08:15] Lisa Summerland: oooh that sounds fun Vanni

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: He became quite popular with the bottom folk looking for a scene.  And he got lots of people to try it out!

[08:15] Vanni Cannoli: Or it's possible to go out into the vanilla world and do some kind of light bdsm game

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: One Dom here said a favorite of his was to go to the store and have his girl get whatever he ordered and put it in the cart

[08:16] RB Quinn: Two years ago Dash and Ciara made a Wheel of Doom game here in SL

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: They got some odd looks from time to time, and if asked he'd just say "I'm lazy" lol

[08:16] Vanni Cannoli: How fun Sir!

[08:17] Vanni Cannoli: So anyway, turning the discussion to our august group, have Y/you come up and tried some kind of BDSM game?  Anything will do!  And it will give our group fun ideas to try at home!

[08:17] Lisa Summerland: a Wheel of Doom game sounds fun!

[08:19] Vanni Cannoli: you spin it and whatever it lands on happens to you

[08:19] Brianne: *laughs*

[08:19] Raks: I am sure you would get very dizzy Brianne lol

[08:19] Sam Cabot: C (typing)

[08:20] Vanni Cannoli: Go ahead when you are finished Sir Sam :)

[08:22] Sam Cabot: Not sure if this qualifies as a game, but one fun activity I would try was to let the sub roll dice to see if 1 or 2 of her extremities are left untied, and then which ones (left/right wrists and left/righ ankles). Those would be left free and then I'd a CNC scene. Resisting with limited movement can make CNC even spicier and imaginative. #

[08:22] Vanni Cannoli: OH that totally works, Sir!

[08:24] Vanni Cannoli: Thanks Sir Sam *sees everyone taking notes*

[08:25] Aspen Diamond: Thank you Vanni, There are more games to play both in both worlds. I had a Dom that I met who live a 100 miles from me and we use to play the game called pick out of the Jar. It was set up like the Wheel of Doom.Then the dice game like Sir Sam said, then strip Backgamiin (sp).

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Strip Backgammon????

[08:25] Vanni Cannoli: Is that like Strip Candy Land?

[08:25] Brianne: Yaas!

[08:26] Peaches Svenska eyes widen. "I love Backgammon!"

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: I like strip head or tails...heads I strip, tails I strip

[08:27] Vanni Cannoli: win/win! \o/

[08:28] Ballard: Is that like whipping flipping?  "Heads I win, tails you lose?"

[08:28] Aspen Diamond: Could be. I had a group that I played with once which was called Hunt and Play. All of the Doms had water guns and subs were strip and they had to get to 5 booths before they got shot with the water guns from the Doms. Who made it first with all five booth won for the sub who made it.

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Sounds interesting!

[08:28] Vanni Cannoli: Squirt guns are cheap on the MP too...just sayin'

[08:29] Raks: I have a game where the submissive suggests a topic/subject of her choice and I have to create questions on that topic.  This becomes a challenging game for both.  If she gets a question wrong she get to choose what to use on her bare bottom (or sometimes his)

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli: OH!

[08:30] Vanni Cannoli suggests "Velocities of Unladen Swallows" as a topic for Miss Raks

[08:30] Raks: Because she chose the subject she had a great chance of holding out for a while:)

[08:30] Brianne giggles at Vanni, then asks "African or European ones?"

[08:31] Vanni Cannoli: I don't know that!

[08:32] Ballard: One cannot carry a coconut without feet!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: That actually sounds really cool, Miss, and I bet a bunch of our august group here are taking notes on that very game!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: lol true Sir!

[08:32] Vanni Cannoli: Excellent thank You!

[08:33] Aspen Diamond: Thank you, A lot of board games can turn into strip games. Smiling just think you are taking your sub on a picnic...........Mmmmm .

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: We move to Miss LIsa Swallowland, I mean Summerland! :P

[08:33] Lisa Summerland: ℓαυgнѕ .

[08:33] Lisa Summerland: Thank you Vanni..........   One "Game" I've experienced once with a Sub was to have remote control of her "Lovense" toy device.........  https://www.lovense.com/programmable-toys ~~~~It actually was thrilling and very arousingly pleasurable as I listened to her voice her experience as we 'played.'  She was using the Lush 3 device....    https://www.lovense.com/bluetooth-remote-control-vibrator     I've also discovered that there are Sims here in SL where dances are held and if you have a Lovense device, it reacts to the music during the dance.......... so there you are with a crowd and many are experiencing the same pleasures you are.........                                                                                     A second 'game' that I really enjoy with a sub is 'edge' play....  Having my Sub edge herself for a period of time but not allow orgasm until we get together in SL.......sweet control and helping my sub dive deeply into sub head space.....#

[08:33] Vanni Cannoli: I didn't mean THAT Miss!

[08:34] Sam Cabot grins "Wide. "Oh Lovense...lovense.. that is a boatload of fun"

[08:34] Sam Cabot: Did I say that aloud?

[08:34] Vanni Cannoli will wait until everyone has completed their orders on the webpage...

[08:35] Lisa Summerland: put my name as a reference for 10% discount hahaha

[08:36] Lisa Summerland: a club named 'Nuit' is one I know of DiJana

[08:36] Sam Cabot: There are also group dedicated to Lovense control.

[08:36] Vanni Cannoli: Amazing!

[08:37] Vanni Cannoli: That's probably why half my colleagues never have their cameras on during Zoom meetings....

[08:37] Raks: Connected by bluetooth takes on a new meaning lol

[08:38] Sam Cabot: Vanni, I  promise I don't know your colleagues. lol

[08:38] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Miss Lisa, and I'm sure that Lovense appreciates the wave of business they just received!

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Actually, having spots in the video lecture where it activated a Lovense would make my students watch to the end...although probably not paying much attention...

[08:39] Vanni Cannoli: Yeah...primary group...secondary group...role...status......mmmmmMMMMMMMMmmmmm.....leadership...

[08:40] Lisa Summerland: hehehe I love how your mind works Vanni

[08:40] Lisa Summerland: Signs up for all your classes

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Miss!  lol

[08:40] Sam Cabot schedulees a zoom meeting with Vanni.

[08:40] Lisa Summerland: zoom zoom zoom !

[08:40] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Miss Lisa for your interesting comment!

[08:40] Sam Cabot: I also remembered another activity. Tie the s typel down naked, with various treats laid out on her (saying her because I'm straight). Then use different  criteria (whatever the mood strikes that day) to pick what you lick/nibble off her. See how long she lasts without squirming enough to make something fall off her body. We can add different rules about permission to moan, or what happens when one of the treats do fall. This works better in RL than SL because on SL it's hard to decide when the s type's squirming made something fall.#

[08:41] Vanni Cannoli: Kinky jenga of sorts!

[08:43] Vanni Cannoli: OH I just thought of another one I saw at the club

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: This Dom fellow had two female bottoms memorize poems, then one would recite on her knees in front of him.  If she got a line wrote, she was spanked or flogged or paddled.  Then keep going, with more spanks/paddles/flogs for more mistakes

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: Then the girls switched positions and the first spanker had to recite

[08:44] Vanni Cannoli: It really satisfied his kinky voyeur nature and well, we liked watching too oddly enough

[08:51] Aspen Diamond: Thank you, A lot of board games can turn into strip games. Smiling just think you are taking your sub on a picnic...........Mmmmm . I do love Edge play and depending on what is coming next. When I read or hear one of my book how I get wet. I was going to get a bluethooth one but expensive for now but Mmmmm I us a pantie veb when I do that on the weekends. I have laid in front of a fire place and laid on my back with coffee coaster on each knee and if it fell he would spank my pussy with 5 swats. This is with the same Dom who lived 100 miles from me until he got cancer. I need a Dom/Master or Mistress to teach me that lesson with spelling. I do great at school but here............it sometimes go's out the window because I get to excited and fingers go flying.

[08:52] Vanni Cannoli: I am Aspen's agent, please send your inquiries and finder's fee to me at "Vanni.  Behind the Water Cooler.  Union Station.  Los Angeles."

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: That sounds rather fun, Aspen, thanks!

[08:53] Vanni Cannoli: Sir RB, You are next, please!

[08:54] RB Quinn: One could combine the 'squirming sub' idea with a standard board game.  Dominant invites a friend to play.. say.. Candyland, but the board perched on his sub's naked torso.  While playing, doms allowed to play with the sub, with an extra move/turn/whatever awarded for making the sub squirm so much pieces fall off the board. #

[08:54] Vanni Cannoli: There You go, Sir, great idea!  *hears more scribbling*

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Thank You Sir RB!

[08:58] Vanni Cannoli: Miss Lisa, You are up when You are ready!

[08:58] Lisa Summerland: Thank you Vanni. Other games that come to mind are: Roleplaying that you are strangers and meeting at a club or bar in SL and both of you trying to seduce the other............  Playing sexual "True or Dare."   .............A game called "Feather light" where in SL you attempt to make your Sub or Dom orgasm with only your words describing how you use a feather on them....     The "Guess Where" game...... Start by thinking of somewhere you’d like your D/s other to kiss.  Keep it in your mind and then have them kiss you in different places until they find the spot.  Then switch roles.             The "Two truths, one Lie game"  This is a super easy drinking game that can be played without alcohol.  Tell your partner two sexy truths and one lie. If they guess the lie right, you drink. If they don’t, they drink.

You’ll learn more about your partners likes and fantasies judging by what they say.  #

[08:59] Vanni Cannoli: Those all sound fun, Miss!

[08:59] RB Quinn: I like all those ideas, Lisa

[09:02] Lisa Summerland: A place to do that is a club called Satyr, they are adult oriented and have balcony adult furniture for those that take it to a public intimacy level display.

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Does anyone else have an idea for a game tied to BDSM?

[09:07] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: c

[09:07] Vanni Cannoli: Please, Sir Kirin!

[09:08] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: We had a game with the scene I was in RL

[09:08] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: We had 3 jars of cards

[09:08] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: one with all of the subs that were there

[09:08] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: one with the masters/dommes

[09:08] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: and the 3rd was with a number of different scenes/actions

[09:09] Peaches Svenska: sounds awesome Sir Kirin!

[09:09] Vanni Cannoli: Oh like dirty Clue!

[09:09] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: There were a number of toys about the room suspension systems and swings, benches and a lot of whips, paddles, and other toys, vibraters tec

[09:09] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: so who ever was running the game would draw out of each jar to see who was particpating

[09:10] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: and then the last jar was drawn to see what was going to happen next.

[09:10] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: I'm sure that you can read between the lines about that, it was a lot of fun, intense, and also got a few laughs

[09:10] RB Quinn: That would translate very well to SL!

[09:10] Vanni Cannoli: "Sir Mustard, with Rachel, on the X Frame"

[09:11] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: And yes that would translate perfectly here in SL

[09:11] Vanni Cannoli: Yes, could be a fun party night activity at Blackstone

[09:12] Peaches Svenska: and since there are so many more subs than dominants, the poor dominants would have to go a few rounds, till each sub who wanted to play, had the opportunity!

[09:12] яøυɢє ѕνєиѕкα: can I just set myself there permanently?

[09:12] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: how aweful Peaches *holds up his scarcasm sign"

[09:12] Aspen Diamond: Rouge that is so funny

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli could easily script a game to do that

[09:13] Peaches Svenska: I'm going to take this on as a Seraph Aspirant project!!!

[09:13] Sam Cabot: There we go. One of the Seraphs could plan and organize it. With Kirin's permission because it was his suggestion, of course.

[09:13] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: Absolutely

[09:13] Ḱιrιn StαrۣۣۜLιght Serevι: as long as I get to participate :D

[09:13] Vanni Cannoli: We can call it 'Sir Kirin's Night of Salacious Delights"

[09:15] RB Quinn: Gosh, this was an interesting topic!  It must have been, for me to not notice Dae arriving!!!

[09:19] Vanni Cannoli: So with that, thank Y/you all for coming and participating in this fun topic!