Sadism -- May 31, 2026

 [15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go ahead and start up

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we start S/M with a discussion of the S -- Sadism

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have a bit of exposition first then we'll go to comments and questions.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Feel free to drop a C or a Q in as we go along

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Merriam-Webster gives a general definition of Sadism as "the derivation of sexual gratification from the infliction of physical pain or humiliation on another person."

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the Dominant Guide has a more specific definition for our kind of community:

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Within the BDSM community, the Dominant is most often the sadist, and the  submissive is generally the masochist (who derives pleasure from receiving pain). Also in the BDSM community, unlike most societal descriptions in the medical and psychological community, sadism is widely accepted as a healthy expression of inflicting pain in a safe, sane, and consensual manner to a masochist who seeks such activities as a form of emotional release or sexual pleasure."

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Acts of Sadism seem to puzzle a lot of vanilla people in First Life -- "why do you get off hitting people?"

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The answer to this varies from person to person, but in general, the feeling of power, of letting that desire to cause hurt to a person channeled onto a person that is willingly allowing it (nay, deeply desiring it!), and the lovely marks that are left on the willing Bottom with the hands, the paddle, the whip, etc, are the charges that drive the Sadist.

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism does not need to necessarily involve physical hitting, by the way.  Sadism may involve humiliation of the willing Bottom, mixed with physical pain or completely in place of it.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Different things turn on different Bottoms, so one Bottom might like being hit with a paddle until his or her ass and thighs are black and blue, while another may not want any physical pain at all, but really gets off on being totally objectified and humiliated in front of people.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   hums the theme song of the 70s TV show "Different Strokes"...realizing it has more to do with this discussion than she thought.... ;)

 

[15:49] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Avoids asking 'Whatcho talkin' bout Vanni? *

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For today's discussion, however, I'd like to avoid Humiliation and focus on the Sadistic acts of "hitting, etc."  Humiliation is another ball of wax that we've discussed here, and will be given its own full discussion period again.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One last thing which is very, very important....

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We are NOT discussing a psychological condition here where a person just acts sadistically toward people minus consent.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   winks at Johan :P

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person doing that likely has Sadistic Personality Disorder which means they derive pleasure from watching people harmed by their acts who do NOT consent to it.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person with that condition cannot perform BDSM in any Safe, Sane or Consensual manner.

 

[15:52] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): nods to that

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A person walking around acting like a jerk to everyone around them isn't a sadist in our definition...they're a jerk.

 

[15:53] Ben Huntsman (Ben Huntsman):   nods agreeing

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's my beginning exposition --  lets talk!  Are You a sadist, do Y/you like sadism?  Or is this an arcane thing Y/you'd rather avoid?  What do you think?

 

[15:55] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm a service top, I don't LIKE inflicting pain, but I can do it if my partner enjoys it. It doesn't bother me to do it at all.  I do like teasing and playfulness and being a 'fiend' but the pain part isn't so much my kink.   Knowing that my partner is fully getting off on it, IS my kink :)  #done

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There you go!

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not quite your thing but your partner enjoying it makes you happy.  Bingo!

 

[15:56] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Q for Johan

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Liss

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as that's a Q to Johan's comment

 

[15:57] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Would the level of masochism in a sub, affect whether you were happy to interact with them?#

 

[15:58] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "Not at all.. I have one who is very much a "no birthday spankings at all please?"  and one who is a "Whip me beat me make me scream your name"  :)   I love them both immensely and derive great pleasure out of both. # done

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Different Strokes to please the subs....Different Strokes to please the suuuuubs!"

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sorry

 

[15:59] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ROFL

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): at least this isn't in voice and you hear me *actually* singing that

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): THAT would be Sadistic Musical Disorder on my part

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks for your comment and Liss thanks for the question!

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rubria has a question for the group

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Rubria

 

[16:00] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you Vanessa

 

[16:00] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): I was wondering if submission and sadism could be somehow associated. How would you view a submissive with sadistic instincts? Thanks for listening. #

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): please answer if you like

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): No Cs please!

 

[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Possibly a brat?

 

[16:02] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): hard on the definition we got at the start but I guess a switch could be

 

[16:03] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you Liss

 

[16:03] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I don't honestly think there's a necessary divide.  Submission isn't inherently tied to masochism, so it wouldn't necessarily be tied to sadism or hidden FROM Sadism. They are just multifaceted aspects?   But I think being BOTH a sadist and a submissive could be leaning towards someone who both wants to serve, but also derives pleasure from providing pain, and perhaps in a certain manner of speaking Brat play could serve both?

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Could be a brat

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or just two different psychological things expressed at different times

 

[16:04] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you Master Johan

 

[16:04] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): I like that definition, Vanessa

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sadism and Masochism are defined by *acts* even though they are drives in a person.  Submission and Domination are really personality types that define roles.

 

[16:05] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *does the finger clap snap thing *

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So a sub could have Sadistic tendencies that get expressed say in a scene with a fellow sub/bottom

 

[16:05] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident):   nods

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): while still being totally devoted and serves their Dom

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a sociololgist I utterly reject "binary" in any human experience...humans are too diverse and dynamic...

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Does that help Rubria?

 

[16:06] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Yes, a lot, thanks to A/all

 

[16:07] Aprilschyld (Aprilschyld Resident):   thinks "Aren't we all such beautiful multifaceted beings"

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for the fabulous question!

 

[16:07] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident):   smiles

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok Ema, you are now up.  Hit us!

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well some of us!

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :P

 

[16:07] Aprilschyld (Aprilschyld Resident): giggles

 

[16:07] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): i think we can all get exciting a little for pain in sl.... for you can imagen it but not feel it ( unless mirroring ) there will be limits for ppl based on things that have happened in there lives i  as an example will not tolerate whips  but i do feel true sadism in sl is in the emotion end  so humiliation interrogation all they ion lol that pain you can feel  can i also add that i see nothing wrong with a sub inflectiing pain on a dominat if it is there wish #

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In SL, S/M is mostly what I like to call "Theater of the Mind," although there is mirroring as you pointed out.

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): however as the brain is the biggest sex organ, it can become very real to people even here

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): much as many of us enjoy having our avatars cuffed or tied...or like cuffing/tying/gagging others

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   fans myself a little

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I do like you pointed out there are many ways to do sadism that don't involve paddles, spanks, etc.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ema go ahead and add whatever you feel as it's on topic then we'll move on

 

[16:12] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): i would beg to differ Vanessa ... i have never felt pain like a broken shoulder (rl) in sl ..:) #

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well I didn't say it's the *same*

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I fell off my bike and bruised my ribs and could barely breathe right for a month

 

[16:12] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And some pains, even for Masochists definitely AREN"T pleasurable

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): My point was what's done here can certainly have an effect on some people.

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I wasn't making an equivalency

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): True Johan!

 

[16:13] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): oh yes !! or we would all colllect stamps hehe

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Ema!

 

[16:13] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): :)

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Benedetta, you are up!

 

[16:14] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): Have you ever thought about the allure of a sadistic action? I mean, do you think there's something fascinating about sadism integrated into the Theater of the Mind?..#

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone can answer!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think most Dominants have *some* sadistic tendencies...but remember it's a spectrum, not either or.

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): for example lots, maybe most?, Dom s like spanking or pinching their charges, or dragging them out nude...but wouldn't hit them.

 

[16:16] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Q to benedetta

 

[16:16] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I guess even something like restricting IMs could be classed as sadistic

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I got lectured at a Femdom by a couple Dommes who said Dominants NEVER are to hit their subs, but to cherish them.  I posed "but what if I feel cherished when I get flogged?"  Then they got mad LOL

 

[16:17] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): hehe

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): <- Hell Raiser

 

[16:17] Ema  (Ema1983 Resident): i would dearly love to cattle prod a few ..

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   giggle

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You sadist!

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rubria go ahead

 

[16:18] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): benedetta, what do you mean about "The theater of Mind?". the psychological side of Sadism? #

 

[16:19]  (Benedetta it>en): Miss Vanessa knows a lot more about the Theater of the Mind than I do but I'll try to answer

 

[16:19]  (Benedetta it>en): it is that mental thread that surpasses the physical sense of contact

 

[16:19]  (Benedetta it>en): it is something that penetrates the mind

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's what I call how we scene here and make it real in our minds as we aren't tactile directly in SL

 

[16:20] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): I understand perfectly : )

 

[16:20] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you

 

[16:20] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Can I offer an 'also' definition/explanation?

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Even SL sex is theater of the mind...unless one is in voice or video or something......

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sure Johan

 

[16:21] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Theater of the Mind = using your Imagination to put yourself/place in the scene that you are engaging in SL.   It's like watching a movie or book that you are totally engaged in and placing yourself in the part of the character.   Except in SL you ARE 100% the person involved.

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bingo

 

[16:21] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Perfect description, thank you Master Johan

 

[16:21]  (Benedetta it>en): I'll give a little consideration to my question...may I?

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Quick, then we need to move on (if you're asking for another point to make?)

 

[16:22]  (Benedetta it>en): it's about rl but I was once tied by the wrists with barbed metal wire.. do you consider it a sadistic or fascinating action?

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh that's rather sadistic on the part of who did it to you!

 

[16:23] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): sadistic!

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): masochistic on yours!

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (Masochism is two weeks from today!)

 

[16:23]  (Benedetta it>en): thanks...smiles

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Molto grazie!

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Darrow you are up!

 

[16:23] TobyDarrow (TobyDarrow Resident): Thank You Vanni.  My journey as a sadist has been fascinating.  I grew up in a strict Catholic household in the mid 20th Century so physical punishment was a reality in our home, as it was in the homes of others ( I am not advocating using violence with children, I have two lovely daughters, I only swatted one of them One time on the bottom).  Yet the reality of using physical violence was not foreign to Me.  My dear Mom was adamant that 'you never hit a woman'.  Yet D/s and the tug of alternative life pulled at Me, I knew early on I was not vanilla.  I attended RL classes, learned about limits, safe words, and the use of pain and pleasure.  Then I dated a RL maso, and the vestigial voice in My head would not let Me hurt her.  (more)

 

[16:24] TobyDarrow (TobyDarrow Resident): My next sub GF, was the key to unlock My sadism.  I shared with her about the prior sub GF--she said, it is not easy being a sadist.  I responded- I am not a sadist!  She replied any Man who likes rough sex, to pull a girls hair, and spank a girl is a sadist ( simplistic definition, yet what I needed to hear).  I whole heartedly sign on to Vanni's wise definition of physical and emotional sadism set out here.  My sub GF continued it is not a bad thing-sadist, it is a good thing.  I allow you to do these things because we have talked (negotiation), I trust you, I enjoy the mix of pain and pleasure you provide.  Let go of your vanilla thinking.  We then planned a 'scene' in a public dungeon with a Dungeon Master(s) and My RL sadist heart was enthralled - for the first time. (more)

 

[16:24] TobyDarrow (TobyDarrow Resident): I speak of all this to share how blessed I was: by the girl I could not hurt, and hence I did not honor her masochism, and by the bright sub girl who held up the mirror of why sadism/masochism works, when you do it correctly.. (done)

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   applauds!

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): All wonderful, especially the part that I'm right! :P (kidding)

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I think what you describe is what many newly-hatched sadists do feel...."How can I enjoy hitting a person when I was trained to NOT do this?"

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): then it's realized the masochistic bottom WANTS it...badly.

 

[16:27] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you for sharing, Sir Toby

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's finding how to do this in a safe, sane and consensual manner

 

[16:27] TobyDarrow (TobyDarrow Resident): nods, exactly My 'training' was the opposite of how I truly feel

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I top in First Life and yeah the first couple times were more "I have to watch every step of this to NOT hurt the person" and they were like "more...harder..." lol

 

[16:28] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident):   smiles

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and not that I like being tied down and spanked and my hair pulled ever...I think...*cough*

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyway....

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Than ks so much for that Mr. Darrow!

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): all well said

 

[16:29] Liss (LissomePrey Resident):   nods

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *lifts my coffee cup*

 

[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): You know what they say, Spare the rod spoil the masochist!

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!

 

[16:29] Ben Huntsman (Ben Huntsman): amen

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I ought to put that in my profile

 

[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I need to put that on a T-Shirt lol

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol

 

[16:29] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): sparing the rod, actually tortures some masochists

 

[16:30] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): grins

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jamee you are up; please!

 

[16:30] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): I just wanted to offer some thoughts to the "Sadistic Personality Disorder." I understand the statement but that disorder, as an actual diagnosis in the DSM never made it beyond the consideration phase. It was removed from consideration because it was found to be more related to antisocial personality disorder and sexual sadism disorder in presentation. Both of which come with significant personal and interpersonal issues that have them rise to a level of disorder, mainly due to consent issues. As a clinical practitioner, I remember the DSM III-R having it in there but that it was pulled from the subsequent versions for reasons of the comorbidity with the two previously mentioned disorders being so high. Just adding context. #

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks!

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the person would be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder if they had those behaviors?

 

[16:31] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *gets all tingly when JaMee and Vanni go Professional speak*  I love brilliant women :)

 

[16:33] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): the nuance of diagnosis of either antisocial personality disorder or sexual sadism disorder depends on much more than their engagement of sadism in practice. So I cannot answer that without far more information on the indivudal. Especially the personality disorder side, since the layers of that are very complex

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Got it!

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks for that, good to have a clinician on board!

 

[16:34] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): kink friendly clinican to boot

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Double wootz to that

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much! ♥

 

[16:34] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): very welcome

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mr. Huntsman passed so we will move on

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): this next one is anonymous

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): [09:35] Coffee Discussion Tracker: Anonymous message: I know of few masters who does not enjoy spanking a good ass and see the ass go red when he does. Flogging is a different area, but many subs like flogging and being tied up to feel that bondage.so in that sense most Masters are Saddist and for me

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I dunno who offered that but sure....everyone is different in how we approach S/M

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I like spanking a good ass, or a bad ass, or a mediocre ass....

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): My SL ass is pretty good but I'm biased :P

 

[16:37] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): spanking improves morale

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I like spanking asses in general... Never met a ass that I didn't want to spank.

 

[16:37] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): q

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Liss

 

[16:38] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Adds JaMee to his future Kinky Shirts team*

 

[16:39] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Slightly off topic but as we have experience, how much does upbringing affect sadsim/masochism? For example Toby talked of Catholic connection with physical punishment and English ex-public schoolboys associate spanking with their formative sexual time (banned nowdays).

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): socialization is key to how we develop...it's not "nature vs nurture" but "nature AND nurture"

 

[16:41] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws):   "excuse me please, must break away"

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): even biological tendencies often if not in almost all cases require some environmental trigger to set off

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): See you Jesseca, hi Passion

 

[16:42] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): Passion, to my feet

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan is typing

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (chat bubbles ftw!)

 

[16:44] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I would ponder that it is still all individual.  For some, you may find that the use of corporal punishment helped make them a sadist OR masochist -  Others it may have created an aversion to it.  My father used to regular spank/paddle, etc..   I don't like being hit.   It never corrected my behavior it just made me 'go along until it was over'.   But, it also didn't make me averse of spanking in D/s, its just not something I enjoy (though I like the red bottoms/light bruises, the marks of my handiwork saying "I did a good job and my sub loved it!".       So while there is I am sure something to the "I was spanked as a kid, so now I spank"  I think thats more on the "We don't know any better because thats what we were taught" part of parenting vs. BDSM which is a sexual derived need/want/pleasure fulfillment?   but that is entirely me postulating.

 

[16:44] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): #done

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): every person is different so it's really not possible to say "a+b+c = behavior" with people, so I agree Johan

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): kids raised in the same family can be highly divergent for example...OR similar....

 

[16:46] ღJαℳεε FαiЯeズαnȡeЯ Sαȿȿαƒґαȿღ  (JaMeeSassafras Fairelander): I have found that the trigger can vary, as can motivation. But trigger brings out something that was already in existence. Sexuality is complex and being both a sadist and a masochist, I can point to a trigger, a book, that introduced the concepts to me. Beauty series for those wondering. But also, there had to be something already in my brain for that trigger to turn on, activate. Now that's it's on, it isnt being turned off. But it had to exist somewhere in my brain, that hot damn and do it againt hing. The reward center plays a roll but so many other areas of brain processing all together play out to respond to that trigger

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% Jamee

 

[16:47] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): And, sorry to add.. I think it leads to a slippery slope that is often accused of those in the D/s lifestyle "You must have Daddy issues so now you enjoy being spanked and treated poorly" by those outside the community.

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nature *and* nurture!

 

[16:47] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): thanks for the answers

 

[16:47] TobyDarrow (TobyDarrow Resident): Nods at Jamee's sharing

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): agreed Johan!

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone can be a great sadist...just as long as it sticks to SSC!

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): any final comments?

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): This was an AMAZING conversation - topic this weekend. Thank you Vanni!  Thank you JaMee!  Thank you everyone

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I just direct, the August Assembly is what makes it work!

 

[16:49] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): psshhh you had great insight as well!

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[16:49] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): It was very interesting, a lot of sharing, helpful ... thank you Vanessa

 

[16:49] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Thanks all, these are always illuminating

 

[16:49] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): and E/everyone

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go forth and be kinky!

Funishment -- May 17, 2026

 [15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So we are doing our yearly romp through the BDSM acronym

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We've gone over how we strange folks like either binding people or being bound

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And then two weeks ago we went over one aspect of discipline, which is behavior modification.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now as a segue into the S/M part of the acronym, we go over an aspect of Discipline we affectionately call "Funishment"

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This is doing some kind of either B/D or S/M play for the sake of it, finding fun in sharing of expression of kinks.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): When we get into Sado-Masochism over the next few weeks we'll get more into WHY we like these things and what drives us to it....

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, for example, anyone here like a spanking or giving a spanking, not to punish or correct, but just for the fun of said spanking?

 

[15:44] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *raises his hand*

 

[15:45] Arella Soren (Arella4 Resident): Raises Johan's other hand

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As a switch, I like both!!!

 

[15:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *tickles Arella's palm with his other hands finger tips*

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And anyone who does enjoy giving or getting said spanking enjoys funishment to some degree!

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Funishment" can involve any aspects of spanking, flogging, etc

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): whatever the people involved find kinky and fun

 

[15:47] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): *raises both hands*

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I am sure some here remember Brianne, the blondie who was my Ed Sullivan....last I saw her, she was into being a mummy, wrapped totally with only her head visible.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): She said she loved every second of her new SL life...so more power to her!

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Funishment is really what we do in First Life when we go to clubs and negotiate scenes.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): When I'm beating on a bottom, or getting MY bottom beat at times, there's no "correction" going on...just the correct application of said paddle to skin.... ;)

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Funishment can also get more into forms of role play.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which sort of "sets up" the whole scene.

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Persons can do extended RPs like"Dirty Doctor" "Perverted Lawyer" or "Tavern Wench who gets beat and shagged."

 

[15:50] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): *loves those Titles*

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not that anyone here does anything like that...I certainly haven't *cough*

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I would NEVER do "Discussion Leader who gets dragged off kicking and screaming!"  Never...

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *fans myself*

 

[15:51] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Makes a note*

 

[15:51] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): Not you....

 

[15:51] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): That would be so unlike you

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It got warm in here...

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *grins*

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now one last thing, there are some who will not do "funishment," saying that it takes away from the roles of Dominant and submissive, and in fact turns the Dom  into a sort of "fun machine" for the s-type.

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I personally don't think so as long as this is negotiated and both understand who is in charge; but of course, we respect all views on this

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that, my questions for the Assembly today are:  1) Are you into funishment?  and if so 2) What types of funishment are on your bingo card?  How do you set up scenes of funishment?

 

[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Seli when ready please!

 

[15:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): Sure. Lexis and I are much more into funishment than anything turbo strict. In part becuase she's -very- well behaved. What she also is, though, is sassy. I'm sure some of you know. And bad puns, she has lots of those

 

[15:54] Seli (Seliara Elton): She's also been through a bit of complicated RL stuff

 

[15:55] Seli (Seliara Elton): And we find that the teasy slightly sassy (not even bratty) moments are great ways for us to test relative mood. I can always tell she's feeling frisky from them, and it's a delight to "funish" her for talking back.

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   grins

 

[15:56] Seli (Seliara Elton): I think it's one of those things that's evolved slowly and naturally, but it leads to a fantastic kind of play where we're both sure we're in the right mood and space to play, and where I know she trusts me to ...well I'm going to get a little outsized with the "funishment" but it's not because she was bad, so much as because she ~is~ good.

 

[15:56] Seli (Seliara Elton): Anyway, it's great. #

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh I love all that!

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and nail on the head there

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Funishment is when the D and s types *get* each other and so what might seem "sassy" to others is simply the two having fun.

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Most of us have seen Poe and Kaylan at it here at Xaara.  Kay will say really offbeat stuff until Poe gags her.

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's all funishment.

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): To some it might seem odd, maybe even "offputting," but that's how they roll

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So everything you said, Seli, is spot on.

 

[15:59] Seli (Seliara Elton): Poe and Kaylan are goals.

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you for that!

 

[15:59] Seli (Seliara Elton): Sure thing

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :)

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kathryn, you are up please!

 

[15:59] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): I love Funishment from both sides.....but on the s-side I've gotten myself into actual trouble before by pushing too hard. That's something I know about myself....and I have to be careful of.  But my girls never give me any actual reason to punish them.....but they both like being spanked, so.....we generally just have to make up a reason and go with it.  Mandy's a little easier to claim general naughtiness with than Kristina.....but we all get to have fun with it.  Which...is the entire point. #

[16:00] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): Wow...that was way more stream of consciousness than I intended it to be. Sorry.....

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes "funishment" has to be clearly understood from both sides.

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not at all I thought it was great!

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's exactly how we roll!

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh wait...'NOW I IZ GUNNA FUNISH U!'

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I agree that the s-type needs to be sure what they're doing is *understood* by the D-type.

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Otherwise it can clearly seem to be insubordination.

 

[16:03] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): Yeah.  I can sometimes go a bit overboard.....so I have to be careful.

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I found it interesting that you said you got in a bit of trouble with your owner for pushing the "funishment," Kathryn.

 

[16:03] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): Yeah......it's the switch part

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's the Delphic Maxim in my profile, "Know Thyself"

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Gotta start there.

 

[16:04] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): When I don't get enough time with my D side.....it sometimes leaks into my s side........and without meaning to, end up attempting to Top from the Bottom

 

[16:04] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): which....never goes over well with a Mistress

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Noooooo

 

[16:04] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): I try to be mindful of that......and apologize far, far in advance

 

[16:05] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): It's never intentional......

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): knowing and working with it is the important part

 

[16:05] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): but that can turn funishment into punishment really quickly

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and then it's all bummer-shment

 

[16:05] Seli (Seliara Elton): Correction is caring!

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I thought you said "correction is caning" for a second

 

[16:06] Seli (Seliara Elton): It is also that

 

[16:06] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I mean...

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which I suppose it could be!

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kathryn thanks so much!

 

[16:06] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): :)

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan you are up please!

 

[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Apologies for the wall of text... put your hard hats on.

 

[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Personally I think, that as long as the Top (whether they are D type or not) as long as they too are having 'fun' there's no problemw ith engaging in the funishment.          Personally yes, I enjoy funishment. I'm not strong Sadist, but I do have a bit of a fiendish streak in me. I love the squirming of submissives/bottoms in mutually enjoyable fun, whether that include impact play and masochism on their part, or such.     I DO like setting up the scene rather than just "we're going to spank you today"   BUT,  there are also times where I just feel like spanking/whipping/cropping/decorating my sub with my marks for everyone to see.      I have one sub who is specifically NOT into pleasure/pain, and one who specifically IS 100% into it all the way, so its a nice balance.  We'll come up with reasons for infractions such as "Tsk tsk tsk, you wore panties today knowing how I feel about lag!"  or "You forgot to collate the documents I had you print out " (If we're doing sexy sexcretary play).      When it comes

 

[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident):  to 'punishments' which are few and rare, they definitely aren't on the 'fun' side of things as we discussed last week regarding corrections and behavior modification.        I will say regarding public play, while its all fun and funishment - at times people may need to understand that off putting public play even though the D and S type are engaging in funishment, they are also not getting consent from the 3rd parties who witness it. Leaving them either the choice to ignore/block, or leave in many cases.  # done

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): save vs wall of text, Fortitude roll...25

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ooo lots of good stuff!

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First I love RP setup to a scene like that

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sure sometimes it's fun to just bind to furnishing and get to it

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but it's also fun to come up with a RP reason for *why* it's going on

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I love the "oh no....you're causing lag with panties!"

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *giggles*

 

[16:09] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It IS a known fact panties cause lag

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): of course

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I hear if you shove them in the naughty sub's mouth and tape it over with duct tape, the lag disappears

 

[16:10] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): can't see then anymore.....so no lag

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): might have to experiment.....experimental and control subs...

 

[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think that's the 'gag exception'  :)

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It's a gag order for sure!

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As far as the third party consent, we've discussed that in the past and I'm sure we'll get to it again during this long section on BDSM

 

[16:12] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): what is the funishment for sl messing the sub around for 40 minutes?

 

[16:13] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thats just the lindens being sadists.

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But like last night was "Bondage a go go"...if someone came to an adult sim, went to a bondage party there, and saw lots of yummy funishment going on...they can either leave, watch, or join in!  No one is making them do anything!

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Forty lashes with a cat-5 flogger for them!

 

[16:14] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Does' the Cat 6 come with decreased latency between strokes?

 

[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): lol!

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good one Johan! ;)

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:15] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Just remember your Safeword must include 8 characters, two capitlizations, three specialy characters...

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!

 

[16:15] Arella Soren (Arella4 Resident): it's on DC

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oh you missed it three times...try again in 30 mins...*whack whack*

 

[16:16] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): "Sorry you've used that same safeword within the past 60 days.."

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOLOL!

 

[16:16] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): Network Security Domination

 

[16:16] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): I was working with a Mistress once. She told me we didn't need need a safe word,YET! lol

 

[16:16] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): eeep

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): YET?!

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): everyone needs a safeword...even if they never use it

 

[16:17] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^^^^^^

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but that's a different discussion

 

[16:17] Kathryn Scarpulla (CatherineScarpulla Resident): *facepalm*

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan that's all great material, thank you!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   looks at the queue

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): who else has a comment or question on "funishment?"

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): do you like funishment, dislike it, if you like it how do you like to set it up...just get to it or do some "set up" first....is it fun?

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): back to Johan while y'all think a bit!

 

[16:20] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I just thought of one more thing to add, I like when it comes to funishment to make certain that submissive KNOWS this is funishment.  I will tell them "WE are doing this because I want to,  or because its a reward for you for doing XXX, etc..    Not because it is a punishment for any wrong doing."   #

 

[16:21] Liss (LissomePrey Resident):   nods

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's back to it being clear on both sides

 

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the Dom  doesn't think it's actual backtalk or being a pain in the arse....and the sub doesn't think they actually did anything wrong...because that's a horrible feeling to any well meaning sub type.

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the key word to all this has always been *communication*

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So good point, thanks Johan!

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Benedetta has a question

 

[16:23]  (Benedetta it>en): Thank you

 

[16:23] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): Is there still anyone who seeks to be punished? I ask because being punished has a profound meaning, it is not a game, punishment presupposes a mistake on the part of the sub and are there subs who enjoy making mistakes or is there a dominant who enjoys giving punishments?

 

[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead and answer no Cs please

 

[16:25] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I've known both, but not sure if either is caused by lack of Funishment.#

 

[16:25] Seli (Seliara Elton): I've met dommes who like punishing. They're the ones where their trick is "everything you do is wrong." Like you say "there's some pretty people here today!" and they say "why are you looking at anyone but me" and next thing you know you're blindfolded, and so on. It's a really intense (and probably unsustainable) way to be, if you ask me, but I've seen a rare few be really into it."

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If people are into that dynamic that's fine...but I don't think *most* s-types would last long in such a thing

 

[16:26] Arella Soren (Arella4 Resident): There are those with such desires for various reasons of their own.  For some, it is a form of attention and/or expression of caring and love.

 

[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Welcome Benedetta   -  for this topic we were specifically discussing 'fun' ishment, to where the top or bottom (or both!) can enjoy the scene mutually.    Personally I don't enjoy punishment, but there are some who do on all flavors of D/s and BDSM.  There are som subs who crave the humiliation aspect of it, so punishment would be more fulfilling than 'funishment' where it may just be a impact-pain masochism thing.     I think there is definitely room for all in the Kink community, but the core is finding the 'right' people for each other in that aspect.  #

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If the continual "punishment" is really funishment between them, that's fine.  Some Dom s like mind-fucking and if the sub is into that, that's also fine

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but if it's being used harshly and for arbitrary reasons and the sub is suffering from it...that ain't gonna last long

 

[16:29] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): How much are each genuine behaviors as opposed to a need for attention. If the latter then surely that is where Funishment should fill the gap. If the former good luck

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good question Benedetta, thanks!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Michael you are up

 

[16:30] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Hope this fits discussion. One of my subs in role play is terrified that using her collar in RLV will destroy or deform her avatar. I cannot convince her otherwise. We miss the RLV side of our role play. Thoughts? #

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): how would it do that?  It really can't.

 

[16:32] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): I've given her numerous information about no avatar destruction. #

 

[16:32] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): oh well.. thanks #

 

[16:32] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I've never heard of RLV in a collar deforming an Avatar unless she has separate 'forms' set up body wise such as if she is also a furry or animal, and those deformers affect?   But even then generally a quick reboot or 'undeform avatar" in the Avatar menu can correct.

 

[16:32] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I would direct her to the Xaara (or many other sims) classes on RLV and collars?

 

[16:33] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I've had this problem as an rlv scripter. People, particularly men, think it can do dreadful things. Even explaining it all logically doesn't work, it is an emotional reaction and can only be met on that level.

 

[16:33] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): thanks Johan # good idea. #

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Liss

 

[16:33] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): all her emotional triggers # yes

 

[16:33] Seli (Seliara Elton): There's also very cheap RLV things you can buy that will essentially "lock" a folder on you. So you put links to all your core "form" stuff like eyes and skin in one folder and then click Lock, and boom, you're stuff is safely ensconced and under your power.

 

[16:34] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): it's an older Moon Pixie collar .. #

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But other than how Johan described a work around in a specific way, there is really no danger of it.  Feel free to save this open chat and let her see it maybe?  Is anyone not wanting their open chat on such a card (if so just remove their part)

 

[16:36] Seli (Seliara Elton): I'm good. She could ping me for help too if she needs

 

[16:36] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Thanks, Vanni #

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): same here

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we always want consent for everything of course!

 

[16:37] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Maybe sub to sub talks for her would be advisable. #

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <--- isn't good.. ends up stripping people back to Noob Avatars on accident lol

 

[16:37] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Maybe an early event in her SL life, did that to her avi Johan. #

 

[16:37] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It was probably me

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's possible

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL

 

[16:38] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): If they don't set up their 'folders' correctly  it IS possible to strip them down to whatever they set up for their body/clothing, etc.

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): people used to put those "traps" in their profile that if you clicked on a link it would put you into a bunny avatar in the "Library"

 

[16:38] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Likely the underlying issue. Johan.. #

 

[16:39] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Yes Vanni.. they capture or pursuit triggers used to be around more. #

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that was never cool

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good question thanks Michael

 

[16:40] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Nope, but if they wanted to be truly evil, it would have been a 'wear all' instead of 'wear bunny'...

 

[16:40] Seli (Seliara Elton): Oh god

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL Johan

 

[16:40] Arella Soren (Arella4 Resident): eep

 

[16:40] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): we had some capture items on Xaara for some festivals. #

 

[16:40] Seli (Seliara Elton): "I have RLV'd you into Lag Town, and you are the mayor

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh

 

[16:40] Chelsea ღ (Baybee Doll): Im so scared of RLV

 

[16:40] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I did that once.. crashed 5 times before I could get everything to stop trying to open/add

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): RLV is fun to use in a scene

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it adds elements of "surprise"

 

[16:41] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Are there tailorable collars where you can add facilities one by one ?

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but on a regular basis, as a submissive I'd rather be told "get in this position" or what have you most of the time

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but all that's a different topic...which I think we'll add to the D/s section when we get there

 

[16:41] Seli (Seliara Elton): How do you mean by facilities, Liss?

 

[16:41] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): pose commands vs. RLV buttons. # hmmm

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or just direct order!

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Kneel in front of me in Nadu2"

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): see that's yummy!

 

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Takes Sydney's leash out of his pocket, and shakes it loose*

 

[16:42] Seli (Seliara Elton):   grins. "I have a little snap hud so I don't even need to order.

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Shake it off!"

 

[16:43] Seli (Seliara Elton): One little pop and Lexi knows where she needs to be.

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well yes but being *told* to do it and doing it gives it that zing IMO

 

[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but however it works for y'all is good!

 

[16:43] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): * turns to smile at her Sire and leans her head to the side waiting patiently for him to leash her*

 

[16:43] Seli (Seliara Elton): Being -trained- to do it worked pretty well, by all reports

 

[16:43] Seli (Seliara Elton):   grins at Vanni

 

[16:43] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): Love has patterns we learn and discover together.. #

 

[16:43] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): rlv isn't dangerous but collars can be (and other items). I wonder about a collar where you can start with no rlv and say are you OK with your IMs being restricted ...

 

[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): any other comments or questions on "funishment?"

 

[16:44] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): sorry

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no worries!

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm trained as a college prof to get us back on track lol

 

[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   winks at Seli as I'm well "trained" *grins and giggles*

 

[16:45] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): Q

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Benedetta will have the final say today

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead!

 

[16:46] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): thank you

 

[16:46] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): Is understanding a mistake part of a Dominant's cultural baggage?

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think any good Dom  should be able to differentiate between an honest mistake and insubordination

 

[16:47] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): "Doms make mistakes?" :)

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): a mistake requires simple correction and a desire to not do it again

 

[16:47] AdamRome (adamrome Resident): We all make mistakes and have misunderstandings

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): insubordination is a problem IMO, and again differing between funishment setup of a scene and actual "I'm not doing that, screw you" kind of speech

 

[16:48] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): To err is human, to punish is Dominant?

 

[16:48] AdamRome (adamrome Resident): To understand is being Dominant

 

[16:49] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Sorry I should have thrown a /s up there for Sarcasm :)  I was failing at being funny :)

 

[16:49] Michael Stardust (Sire Sands): I find porch talks can often resolve an error or mistake by either party. #

 

[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but honestly if I had a submissive who directly told me "no, I'm not doing that"  the next question to them would be "then why are you my submissive?" unless I was overstepping a clear limit of course

 

[16:49] Chelsea ღ (Baybee Doll): ^

 

[16:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ^   This..  A "no" is a good opportunity to discuss 'ok, why not?"

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right

 

[16:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): does that help Benedetta?

 

[16:50]  (Benedetta it>en): yes and thank you...smiles

 

[16:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok with that we will dismiss!  Thank you all!  Next week Johan has his "Easy Like Sunday Morning" dj set from 8-10 (I think) then in two weeks the topic is "Sadism" as we get to S/M!

 

[16:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for all the great comments and questions!

Behavior Modification -- May 3, 2026

 [15:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I do have a bit of exposition as usual

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so as thoughts come up just drop a C or a Q in the queue and then we'll start with your comments

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This week is Discipline, the second part of the B/D pair of BDSM

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discipline is the act of some kind of punishment or correction of a person.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Parents instill discipline in their kids via punishments of types for wrongdoing.  And hopefully via positive reinforcement for a job well done.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have talked about this a few times over the years, but in the interest of clarity and for newer folks, we have two ways to look at this.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In the behavioral sciences, we talk about reinforcement and punishment.  We want to reinforce desired behaviors and punish bad behaviors to keep them from happening.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Punishment is a tool in a D/s relationship for the breaking of a rule that has been negotiated between the Dominant and the submissive.  Any rule within the agreed upon limits of the relationship needs to be obeyed, so a punishment is to stop a behavior that is not desired.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): [15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If we really need to punish any person....wayward child, naughty sub...then the punishment needs to have three characteristics:

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First it must be swift, done as close as possible in time to the infraction.

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or it loses connection from act to punishment.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Second it must be certain, it WILL happen, or the punisher (not the comic book character) will look weak in the eyes of the person and so not an authority figure.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And third, it must be Rational, meaning the level of punishment is tied to the infraction.  Insane punishments for light infractions just breed contempt.  Light punishments for serious infractions teach nothing.

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "You killed AGAIN Miss Cannoli?  That's another $100 fine for you!"  I'd be droppin' Franklins like candy!

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kidding of course...mostly :P

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good Doms will reinforce positive things in their charges, and use punishment sparingly but WILL do it if/when necessary.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Reinforcement is doing something the person likes or taking away something they don't like when they do the desires behavior.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Keep your room clean and you get ice cream"

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Kneel when I tell you and you get spanked" (well...that works for subs anyway lol)

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Do what I tell you and we'll have your lazy sister do the mopping rather than you"

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's all reinforcement

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What we not talk about today is what we lovingly call "funishment"...that's the topic in two weeks

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the idea with "funishment" is really more of a negotiated RP where the sub "appears" to break a rule and then the BDSM scene starts....again, that's the topic for next time

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): today we'll stick with behavior modification

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the questions for today are:  Do you use (or have used on you) some form of behavior modification?  Is punishment a real thing in SL?  How do we do it?  Is reinforcement better than punishment?

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or anything around the topic of behavior mod, what it is, and how we do it.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok that's my exposition...what do you think?

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan when you are ready please!

 

[15:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ( Will take a while to type)

 

[15:54] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So, Punishment is something I actually have a difficult time with. I'm a parent of a Teenager (who actually is a damn good kid so I've not had to actually 'punish' him in 10 years.. Mostly its 'talking to' )

but I know in a D/s and BDSM perspective sometimes a punishment is NEEDED for the submissives sake, to know that the Dominant DOES in fact care. Its a odd balance between 'how do I punish - so its meaningful, but not overbearing like you said, and also reinforce the good behaviors (that I am great at.)

 

Thankfully I also have two great submissives, one slightly bratty but only playfully so.  We at times have had to 'create' situations for 'funishment' because she also is a masochist so she likes the pain of cropping/spanking/paddling, etc.

 

So I find if I am doing something for Punishment sake vs. reinforcement sake, its along the lines of "You aren't allowed to do X that I know you enjoy for until"  or what I haven't had to use yet "I want you to write me a NC as to WHY you thought it isn't ok to do...."   / Done

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's good!

 

[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and honestly that is a form of punishment, as the person in question prob doesn't *like* having to write such a card,  Punishment is the opposite of reinforcement, where something disliked is *added* to alter behavior.

 

[15:56] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *looks back at Master remembering his fiendish ways of punishment*

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "I don't want to write a card where I spell out my misbehavior and why.  I won't do that again."

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also that's rational punishment, Johan, as it ties the behavior closely to the issue.

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So that was all very well said!  Thank you!

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we move to Scarlet please

 

[16:00] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): For me, rewarding my good behavior works better than punishing my bad behavior. As long as the rules make sense to me and are clear, I do my best not to act out against them. on the rare occasions I step out of line a quick chastisement is usually enough for me to realize i messed up and correct my behavior. #

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and in a good relationship usually all that would be required is a "hey, I didn't like that, let's talk about it."

 

[16:01] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): yes, exactly

 

[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Or an apltly timed "Raises his eyebrow"

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:02] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *hides a smile*

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): my eyebrows work well as they're so perfectly arched :P

 

[16:02] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <3

 

[16:02] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): :-)

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You have a good heart Scarlet and I know that you'd never *knowingly* misbehave.  So that's why just a chat is enough.

 

[16:03] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria):   nods

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): IMO punishment needs to be left for acts that keep repeating.

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thanks Scarlet!

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Liss with a question

 

[16:04] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): for both Dominants and submissives - do you think it is better to have a formal set of agreed rules or more general guidelines to behaviour?

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead and answer, do NOT add a C

 

[16:05] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So..... yes :)

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or we'll have an ocean of Cs at the bottom

 

[16:05] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): general guideline

 

[16:05] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): @Liss Master and I have a formal set of rules... it is our Negotiations document in Google that we refer to and keep up to date. It includes my limits, rules and structures for me ect. There is also a calendar on the fridge where I keep him up to date on what I am doing. In addition to our linked google calendar so he doesn’t worry about me. Granted, we are a RL couple so maybe this makes more sense for us.

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): wow amazing Rune!

 

[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I hope you got that notarized :P

 

[16:06] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): haha!

 

[16:06] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): There should be both, a formal set of agreed rules done during negotiations, but also there will be things that come up that you don't consider but go "Ok, while that wasn't against the rules, we BOTH know that throwing a pie in Chew's face is disrespectful to both ME and Chew.  Chew because of whom he is and being an autonomous person who didn't consent to having a pie thrown in his face, ME because you represent ME as your Dominant."       and yes, 100% with Rune, have it written down.. Have it updated and regularly touch base with during 'porch talks' .

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   hands Johan a "Xaara Star" ;)

 

[16:07] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): I think a good mix of the two works best. Specific rules for the really important things, and general guidelines for things of lesser import. For instance, How to address the Dominant when in certain situations would be a specific rule, while at home things could be more relaxed

 

[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Passes his star to Scarlet as well*

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Scarlet

 

[16:08] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): thank you

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): D/s involves some aspect of formality, it's not "vanilla"

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I think each D/s relationship is different and the people involved have to decide *how* formal to make it

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people write up whole contracts on what will be done, what's expected and for how long

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): others are just "we'll make it up as we go along"

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's up to you and who you are with

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good question, Liss and good answers!

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Benedetta please!

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): with a question

 

[16:10]  (Benedetta en>en): thank you

 

[16:10] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): My question is for everyone...what is our understanding of punishment? I am punished if I accidentally make a mistake. How does the Dominant feel about punishing the submissive? Does he feel metaphorically involved in this punishment, or does he view it with detachment? What does punishing the submissive feel? Does he metabolize the punishment he is inflicting in the same way as the submissive?

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oooo lots of thought there

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead and answer some or all of that as you will...again no Cs please

 

[16:12] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): for me, i think just once punished mine sub, i felt

 

[16:13] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): involved, was really angry with her, so it was not a distant thing

 

[16:13] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): sorry for mine bad english

 

[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no worries!

 

[16:13]  (Benedetta it>en): thanks for the reply

 

[16:14] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): I wear Master’s collar in RL. Punishment is rare but usually means he will “take space” for a while so he can think and isn’t angry because we have an agreement that he will never punish out of anger. Physical punishment and even “funishment” is rare because I have severe cervical stenosis and other back problems that limit what we can do, but a chastisement makes me feel… awful anyway.

 

[16:14] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): verbal* chastisement

 

[16:14] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Great question Benedetta,   to quote my father "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you"  Though as a kid I never really understood that. But, most caring Dominants don't WANT to punish a loving submissive.   As a Sadist we may want to hurt them - but only insofar as what they want to be hurt in return to meet both needs.       But, that isn't for punishment sake, thats for the S/M part of the BDSM acronym.       I try to avoid 'feeling' it by making sure when I DO have to punish someone, I'm not punishing them because I am angry.  I am punishing them to correct a behavior or action so that it won't be repeated again.        Now, would I punish for a mistake or accident? No.   I wouldn't.. A discussion and talk is probably all that is necessary for that. Accidents are human.

 

[16:14] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I have rarely been punished as a sub, I must behave worse, but would want my Dominant to feel really involved. I am learning the other end of a leash which is why I am interested in how Dominants do feel.

 

[16:16]  (Benedetta it>en): thanks everyone for the replies

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can tell you that as I'm a switch, the most serious "punishment" I ever received was from a Mistress who was upset with me over "playing" with a gag (that green garbled speak in SL).  She IMed and said "I'm disappointed in this behavior.  You know better."

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I apologized, stopped that immediately and NEVER did it again.  And felt like shit for a week.

 

[16:17] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Yes, the dreaded "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed"   cuts like a knife

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and she had every right to say that

 

[16:17] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): thats what hurts me the most, knowing that ive disappointed the Dominant im with

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods

 

[16:18] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): whispers...great chat  being called away

 

[16:18] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): very painful

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): talk about behavior mod!

 

[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good question Benedetta and good replies!

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And now Valmont has a question

 

[16:19] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): yes...this is mine first encounter here in xaara, so i feel a little newbie..is mine impression or..

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): everyone is welcome to participate!

 

[16:20] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): all this discussion make more sense toward a RL BDSM relationship more then one that remain here in SL ?

 

[16:20] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): or simply mine standard are lighter ?^^ so to say

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the First vs Second Life "leap" is often a topic

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): especially with behavior mod

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so what do y'all think?  go ahead and give any answer you like

 

[16:21] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): i mean, have protocols..in a world where you can meet sometime and sometimes not...

 

[16:21] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): itsnt too restrictive ?

 

[16:21] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): stop ^^

 

[16:23]  (Benedetta it>en): I think and forgive the aragon it's like saying... do you love mum or dad more?... I think we're talking about concepts and behaviors and not so much about places... it's a lifestyle that clearly differs in SL compared to SL but then not much... the mind can do much more than physical contact

 

[16:23]  (Benedetta en>en): #

 

[16:23] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): Master and I began in SL and very much used SL for most if not all of our D/s and BDSM for a good 6 years prior to meeting. I think its very possible to use the mental aspects as Benedette is saying for a fulfilling D/s relationship here.

 

[16:24] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thats a good and fair question Valmont :)      So, are there some things we can do in RL that aren't the same in SL? 100%     BUT, we CAN still have some other protocols agreed upon for WHEN we are in Cyberpsace/tech space, vs. Meat Space.     My girls and I have them.  My girls greet me when they come on, we have a specific way they greet me, we have specific names, hand signals, etc.   The emotions, trust, and respect are all the same even if the physicality is different.    In some aspects its actually EASIER in SL, because in RL it would be difficult to be in a High protocol status 24/7,  but because we have independent and separate meat space lives for a good part of each day/week/month, we can be in more high protocol situations while in SL.  #done

 

[16:24] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): BDSM is sl only for me so it is the mental relationships. As a sub I like a framework of expectations on me. It guides me in making choices ,even if the choice may be to misbehave, it at least reminds me I am doing so and there are likely to be consequences. #

 

[16:25] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): ive only ever experienced D/s in SL so I cant speak to the RL side of it. However, I think the topic of behavior mod applies well to SL. It is harder for punishments to really be effective in SL. Physical punishments dont work as well here as the mental punishments and the degree of a mental punishment is harder to gauge than the degree of a physical punishment

 

[16:25] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): #

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): wow great answers y'all!

 

[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli):   hands out more Xaara Stars!

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There you go Valmont!  Plenty to think about!

 

[16:27] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): well probably the reason is i never had a so high protocol situation till now

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I prefer to call the meat world "first life" as this is all real.  We are real people here not AIs (I think...).  Yeah we are all 25 and perfect forever but we're real people at the end of the day

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I think there is *lots* of mental and emotional crossover

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there has to be

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or we're automations

 

[16:27] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): so mine expectation become lighter with time

 

[16:28] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): probably still not meet someone that need this from me

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent question and answers!

 

[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): any other comments or questions on this topic?  we still have some time

 

[16:28] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): I won't be punished by the Master, and we're talking about modifying the actions of the Sub here, but is it possible for the Master to modify their own actions?

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd hope so!

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): what do you all think?

 

[16:29] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): obovously yes...if the sub have some hard limits, the master is not permitted to cross them, also if  he would like too

 

[16:30] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): if he sees those limit as too hard for him better rethink about the  relationship

 

[16:30] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): not sure if it was that was requested with the last question

 

[16:30] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I'd assume all Dominants and submissives learn from experience so I think we all self modify to a degree. Life should be about learning.#

 

[16:30]  (Benedetta it>en): a Master who does not recognize any changes is anchored to a pole and his perspectives become like a cloud in a completely blue sky... that is, he remains alone

 

[16:30] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): I believe that a Dominant must be willing to own and modify their own actions when they make mistakes - we're all human. We all make errors. And it sets a good example model for your sub if you can live up to the expectations you set for her/him

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes to all of that!

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as a submissive, I'd  never be with a Dominant who thinks they can never admit a wrong somewhere when they clearly are

 

[16:31] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): nods and smiles

 

[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just like a sub that can't admit a failure is a big problem

 

[16:31] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): I hope the Master/Mistress will take time to have "porch talks" where things are discussed. What punisments/rewards were most effective, the least effective. What have you learned about yourself and your likes/dislikes in our D/s relationship. After these discussions, id hope that the Master/Mistress would take time to go over the answers presented and while staying within his/her personality and own likes/dislikes make changes to things as necessary

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes Scarlet!

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but some people of any type can't admit they did wrong

 

[16:33] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): I've never heard of "porch talks" before.

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that's a problem, whoeverr it is

 

[16:33] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): yes me too what does it mean : porch talks ? may i ask ?

 

[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Certainly!

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Porch Talk means "speak as equals for a while and talk about things" rather than in D/s protocol

 

[16:33] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): ok ty

 

[16:34] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): you beat me to it Miss Vanni

 

[16:34] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): oh that's great！

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:34] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): here could it be considered an OOC

 

[16:34] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): a prologued one

 

[16:34] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): I’ll suggest that to my next time.

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it doesn't mean they totally drop the D/s connection, but they openly speak about things

 

[16:34] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): prolongued* sorry

 

[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its a good chance to come together monthly/quarterly/annually to say "Hey, whats the state of our union?   Are you still happy with everything? Is there anything we need to adjust/change?  Do we need to alter our limits/negotiations? "

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bingo, Johan

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and the sub really needs to speak openly, not just "everything is fine Master/Mistress"

 

[16:36] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): nods

 

[16:36] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Besides specific 'how is our D/s?' discussions my Master and I spend a lot of time talking and sometimes arguing on all sorts of topics. So that protocol matters

 

[16:36] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): that is the key to the porch talks, the sub must be open to and know that it is safe to politely talk about their misgivings

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which I think both parties should do at *any* time, but having specific times as Johan said to do a "State of the Union" is also very good

 

[16:37] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): well i say again, looks to me the minimum requirement, or is no more a relationship

 

[16:37] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): I'm too blunt, so he often tells me I should look for someone else....lol

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I mean if my sub came and said "Miss I'd like to chat about X" I'd not say "wait until porch time" lol

 

[16:38] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Lol and I just tell mine "someone has their bossy pants on today"

 

[16:38] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *giggles quietly*

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee

 

[16:38] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): rellatioship, for me means something where both parts have pleasure..if not..is not a relationship

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bingo!

 

[16:39] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): When he says that, I just fall silent.

 

[16:39] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): I agree Sir Valmont, since I learned about porch talks, I ask any new dominant i am considering how they feel about them. If i get a negative response, or a "Im always right, there is no need for them" I stop considering that individual

 

[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Exactly - and it may take some time to get a Submissive to feel comfortable being 'open' during porch talks.. Sometimes they fear it being held against them, or that they'll overstep or upset their partner(s)   BUT., during initial organization and when we discuss "Papa's Rules" one of mine is "If there is a problem you have, I need to know about it. We can't fix it if we don't."

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): run not walk to the nearest exit, Scarlet

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 100% Johan!

 

[16:40] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): yes Sir Johan, well said

 

[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm a sociologist and I reject any notions that humans are static -- we are dynamic, we change, needs and wants change, and we need to communicate those things to each other

 

[16:41] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): and i will add, more here, where you can in any moments break the scene and fly away

 

[16:41] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): I had a dominant who took my collar away during a porch talk because he did not like what I said. That ended the relationship. It took me a long time to trust again tbh

 

[16:41] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): s dominant that not respect this basic rule

 

[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jesus Jenny!

 

[16:42] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): is not a dominant..

 

[16:42] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): is a poor man

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yeah another "run, not walk" situation, Rune

 

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Sometimes its as minor as "I enjoy cuddling with you, but sometimes I want to kneel at your feet"  and while the "Papa Bear" in me LOVES cuddles,   the Dominant in me ALSO loves 'kneeling" so that is a SUPER easy fix -     once its communicated.

 

[16:42] Rune (FatedPickle Rune):   nods

 

[16:42] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): WOW! retaliation of any sort is not part of a true porch talk

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% Scarlet

 

[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm so sorry Rune

 

[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's the exact opposite

 

[16:42] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): <3

 

[16:43] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): ohhh...so bad...Rune

 

[16:45] aco  ღ あこ ღ  (Aco Avon): I completely understand what you mean. Once trust is lost, it's very difficult to regain it.

 

[16:46] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): Aco, to me that kind of response to me openly speaking my mind during an appropriate time is uncalled for and is a sign that the Dominant does not feel that He/She is right for you. In that situation, I would seriously consider leaving

 

[16:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It almost sounds like we need to write up a class about Porch Talks for the paths Vanni :)

 

[16:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Or 'effective communication'

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that would be good

 

[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Communicative Action as we call it in Sociology ;)

 

[16:46] Rune (FatedPickle Rune):   smiles

 

[16:47] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *adds it to his every growing list of workshops he wants to write*

 

[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Just remember it has to be in the original Klingon to be the most effective!  (Star Trek VI joke...)

 

[16:48] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): ill say again : a Dom that dont feel something is wrong, is  a Dominant that is going to loose quickly his/her submissive

 

[16:48] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): :)

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and we should wrap this up as well

 

[16:48] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): It was nice to meet you Scarlet

 

[16:48]  (Benedetta en>en): bye Scarlett

 

[16:48] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): bye Scarlett

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for the great comments everyone, YOU are what makes this discussion so strong

 

[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in two weeks we'll discuss "Funishment!"