H is for Humiliation! -- June 28, 2026

 [08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: OK I think we are it for today so let's start up

[08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

[08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

[08:39] Vanessa Cannoli: We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

[08:39] Vanessa Cannoli: If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

[08:39] Vanessa Cannoli: Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: With that out of the way, we'll begin.

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: As usual I have some exposition to start with

[08:40] Vanessa Cannoli: as I yammer a bit feel free to put a C or a Q in the queue

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: ok here we go!

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: Over the past few weeks we have been going over the BDSM acronym

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: we finished B/D and went into S/M.  The last four weeks we have talked about general ideas of Sado-Masochism.

[08:41] Vanessa Cannoli: This week we start more specific kinds of discussions, in this case, Humiliation play.

[08:42] Vanessa Cannoli: Some people find humiliation puzzling -- why would people *want* to be humiliated?  What kind of kick do they get out of it?  Some find it horribly offensive.

[08:42] Vanessa Cannoli: The important thing is ... here at Xaara, as long as things fall in to SSC kinds of activities, then what people do is their biz.  We can not like it, we can say to ourselves "I'd never do that" but we're not going to judge it here.

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: When we think of "humiliation" we usually think of a bottom or sub being trampled on, their Dom  or Top telling them they are worthless shit, doing Golden or Roman Showers on them.

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: Just because that was my Friday night fun...don't judge me.

[08:43] Vanessa Cannoli: :P

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:44] Jeannie (jeannefrank) grins

[08:44] Vanessa Cannoli: But in all honesty, more of us do very subtle forms of humiliation than we think, and people that enjoy this kind of kink are not "strange", they have their kink and are enjoying it with people who share it.  It's all good and yummy!

[08:45] Vanessa Cannoli: Let's use a subtle example here:  how many subs here enjoy to be leashed, and how many of our Dominants enjoy putting an S-Type on a leash?

[08:45] Vanessa Cannoli raises both hands being a switch

[08:45] Johan Dark (wjohanw): *raises hand and tugs Sydney's hair with his free hand*

[08:45] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): i love to be leashed

[08:45] Jeannie (jeannefrank): raises hand

[08:45] SierraMysst joisn Vanessa waving two hands

[08:46] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) smiles and rases hand, loves to use a leash on a sub

[08:46] Georges (nobutnoif): rises one hand to Miss Vanessa

[08:46] Vanessa Cannoli hums "please re-leash me, never let me go...."

[08:46] SierraMysst laughs

[08:46] Georges (nobutnoif): smiles

[08:46] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): yes leashes to me aren't humiliating, they are comforting :D

[08:46] Rhonda Bachem (vvranaavv) raises my hand after catching up

[08:46] Vanessa Cannoli: So most of us enjoy either doing something we do to an animal, or being leashed like a dog or what not...but that's not how we usually *think* of it.

[08:47] Vanessa Cannoli: But if we walked around in polite, vanilla society with a person on a leash or on a leash ourselves, we would be stared at, comments would be made and shock would be real.

[08:47] Vanessa Cannoli: And the feeling of connection that is made via a leash is also a form of external "look at my sub on my leash, they are mine" or "I belong to my Dom , they have me leashed."

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: Right??

[08:48] SierraMysst mutters, "You should see the  fngers that have been pointed at me when I leashed my sub"

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: I can imagine Sierra!

[08:48] Vanessa Cannoli: So we get a kick out of something that is simple in form but meaningful as it's a symbol of power..and it's also putting the person *on* the leash in their place.  It's a symbol of power exchange.

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: Before we go to comments I want to discuss quickly three kinds of humiliation play.

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: The first kind is what termed "Status Humiliation".

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: This is some kind of activity where the Bottom/Sub is moved down the hierarchy to be sure they, and everyone around knows, that the target is under the authority and rule of the Top/Dominant.

[08:49] Vanessa Cannoli: Leashing is a perfect but fairly low key example of this.

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: Subbies and switches, you know what I mean when a Dominant puts us "where we belong"....

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: Even public commands, "do this, kneel in this position, take your clothes off, eat that banana upside down" are all examples of that power exchange done in public.

[08:50] Vanessa Cannoli: It can be done in public orders like "walk two steps behind me" or "kneel at the Pier Bar and say nothing until I order you to do so."

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: All those are emblems of the power exchange and to make the S-type feel the power of the Dominant.  And what a thrill it gives the object of the power! ♥

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli wonders how many are fanning themselves.....

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: :P

[08:51] Vanessa Cannoli: The second kind of humiliation play is Object Humiliation.  This is when the bottom/sub is turned into some form of object or perhaps an animal.

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: Petplay, PonyPlay and the like are examples.

[08:52] SierraMysst is just squirming on her towel

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: They create a "depersonalization" of the S-Type.

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: A person can also be turned into an object.  Making a sub into a footrest is a pretty classic example.

[08:52] Vanessa Cannoli: At a RL party I went to years ago at a Dom's apartment, he had his girl turned into a lamp.

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: She was in her bra and panties with a lampshade on her head and was holding one of those low wattage Ikea lights on a cord

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: He gave her a break every ten or so minutes to move around, drink, use the restroom and stretch, and then she was back in the corner being a lamp.

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: It was quite a "bright idea!"

[08:53] SierraMysst mutters, "I would have made her be naked"

[08:53] Vanessa Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:53] SierraMysst groans

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: I think as it was her first time as a lamp they agreed her undies.

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: believe me she was ultra sexy

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: and we all complimented her for her behavior

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: which gave her a huge grin!

[08:54] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): aw that's awesome

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: it was WATT she wanted!

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: ♫ rimshot ♫

[08:54] Vanessa Cannoli: sorry sorry

[08:55] SierraMysst: A.. umm.. "Bright Smile" .. so to speak

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli grins

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: The third kind of humiliation play is the most dicey one.  Emotional Humiliation.  This is where the Top/Dominant does use some kind of name calling, or humiliating acts, that are *****NEGOTIATED***** with the sub.

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: Note the big word there:  Negotiated!!!!!

[08:55] Vanessa Cannoli: For example, in a scene where I am the bottom, I'm quite happy to be called "Bitch" "whore" or have certain degrading things done to me that have been *NEGOTIATED* beforehand.

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli takes away the pencils from the Dom/mes in the room who might have their own "bright ideas" after my admission....

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli: ;)

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli: OUT of that, if someone calls me "whore" or bitch where it is not negotiated, they're gonna find out what a half Sicilian, half Brazilian woman does to show her...ire.

[08:56] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): heard on that Vanessa

[08:56] Vanessa Cannoli: Like the guy at a Flogging Molly concert that grabbed me while really drunk, and I punched him right in the face and he fell into his buddies who laughed at him.

[08:57] Johan Dark (wjohanw): There fore the grace of god - he went :)

[08:57] Vanessa Cannoli: On the way out of the concert, a security guard came up to me and said "I saw him grab you and was about to eject him, but you handled it well!" lol

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: which would never happen if a guy punched a guy

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: but a girl punching a guy in the face...I guess amusing!

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: anyway I digress

[08:58] Vanessa Cannoli: All that said, with negotiation, Emotional Humiliation can be a fun thing for the Dominant and sub with proper care and control.  But NEVER do this minus a lot of negotiation, understanding and checking in.

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: ): And during aftercare talk about it, see how it went and modify the next time, if there is one.

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: Ok that's my discourse on this.

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: We now throw it open to the August Assembly...do Y/you enjoy Humiliation play?  Avoid it like the plague?  If Y/you do it, how is it kept SSC?  Have Y/you seen good and/or bad examples of this?

[08:59] Vanessa Cannoli: We'll start with Sierra, please toss in Cs and Qs as you wish!

[09:02] SierraMysst: Well, my comment was specifically about 'status'. And yes, a leash is a very common and very effective means of establishing 'the order'.. I have found that selecting the subs wardrobe can be JUST as effective  Choosing my subs outfits and insuring they are scanty and revealing definitely reminds her of her place. #

[09:02] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes!!!!

[09:02] Vanessa Cannoli: Some subs use those websites that have all their outfits in them and the Dom/me can go on the page and select what they will wear anytime the Dom/me wants

[09:03] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): yes the Wardrobe

[09:03] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes

[09:03] Vanessa Cannoli: it's really cool for the sub that wants total control of their look given to their Dominant

[09:04] Vanessa Cannoli: Others like to simply be told "wear this or that and that hair"

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks for that comment and bringing up wardrobe...a fun way to connect to status.

[09:05] Vanessa Cannoli: We go to wombaticus!

[09:06] Vanessa Cannoli: who has a question

[09:06] wombaticus: How would that work in my situation? The "changed into an animal", situation. I was "changed" to a horse many years ago. lol

[09:07] Vanessa Cannoli: Well that's just one option....does anyone have an idea of how wombaticus could get into a different form of object play of some sort?  Don't C, just answer please.

[09:08] Jeannie (jeannefrank): A Dominant could order him to change to a different animal.

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: there you go!

[09:08] SierraMysst: There's always "Bibbity Bobbity BOO.. Poof you're a unicorn and I'm using that horn as my dildo?"

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: heh heh

[09:08] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I think it would depend on the dynamic between you and a Dom/me.  It would depend on what you find humiliating.  For axample, are you a stallion?  then maybe being treated as a draft horse...

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: any form of consensual play is great!

[09:08] Vanessa Cannoli: yes!

[09:09] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Good question!   It 'may' or 'may not' work in your situation,  being a Horse is something you enjoy and don't find taboo or humiliating. But, for some the idea of taking a Human Person, and stripping them naked, binding them... putting them into a horse tail, a collar/bit'lead/gag,   telling them "Ponies don't talk!" and making them behave as if they are animal completely, can be humiliating in different forms.    ::nods:: To Cyan,  Or several times you've brought up your Halter.. If someone asked you in private for consent to use your halter and lead you around, and you enjoyed being led by them because its outside your normal 'freedom' it could be considered Humiliation play.

[09:09] Vanessa Cannoli: oooo

[09:09] SierraMysst: And there in lies the secret.. CONSENTUAL. .I mean, i can probably come up with a lot of ideas. but, what would wombaticus CONSENT to is the question.. hence... that big word.. "NEGOTIATION"

[09:10] Vanessa Cannoli: 100% Sierra

[09:10] wombaticus: Ok. I DO enjoy being led by halter, going to "eexcersie, etc. lol

[09:10] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:10] SierraMysst: Have him draw my Surry (with the fringe on the top)

[09:11] wombaticus: And I am ridable, so my #1 rider can control my movements, so.

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: Or...as you are comfortable as a horse, just turn it around and be ordered to be a human again for some period of time

[09:11] Vanessa Cannoli: that would be the 'objectification'

[09:11] SierraMysst: Lots of pink ribbons in his mane, a bit rainbow bow around his tail.....

[09:11] wombaticus: AH! THAT is a different concept. lol

[09:11] wombaticus: Ok. That answers my question, then. Thank you. #

[09:12] SylviaAurelia: I know someone who enjoys roleplaying the frustration of being a human who has been turned into a chicken and unable to speak and having people just treat them exactly like a chicken, feed them corn, put them in a coop, where the pretext is the human does not even know the chicken is a human.

[09:12] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes Sylvia, that is a clear form of object/animal humiliation (not that we want to humiliate animals of course)

[09:12] Johan Dark (wjohanw): I was going to tell them they could go back to being human, but have you seen the price of Egg's lately?

[09:12] Vanessa Cannoli: lol

[09:12] SierraMysst: LOL

[09:12] Jeannie (jeannefrank): LOL

[09:12] wombaticus dies laughing

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: lol

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: wombaticus good question and thanks for making us think!

[09:13] Vanessa Cannoli: we go to Johan please!

[09:13] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Fair warning -  incoming wall of text (Even more than normal)

[09:13] Johan Dark (wjohanw): Part of my Adept studies was on Humiliation Play, as thats not an area of Kinkdom I was/ or still am super familiar with.  I can DO it, I was a NCO in the USAFR and grew up with a Military Verbally/emotionally abusive parent (who's been making his amends and personal growth so no hard feeling there, it taught me what "NOT" to do as a Parent, and what TO do as a top for Humiliation...

 

But one of the aspects of play I did was some reading which I Highly recommend the book "Enough to Make You Blush" and "The Emotional Play Handbook" as they go over Humiliation play in many aspects that I found enlightening to me.

 

Sierra completely was in my head regarding 'clothing'  such as "You will wear no panties tonight when we go dancing"   Anything that gives that exciting-nervous-taboo feeling is Humiliation Play even if mild.

 

Another of the things they brought up I will quote from my write up rather than bore you with the entire write up "  'Its a way of knowing someone. If you break down what humiliates them, its

[09:13] Johan Dark (wjohanw):  a way of breaking down a person and really knowing them" along with "It's really intimate" and with thought about it, thats very true. Being able to humiliate someone to both/all parties satisfaction does require a more intimacy level than just service or pleasure. You have learn what makes the other person tick.  Sexy can be for sex sake of just physical pleasure, impact scenes can be just for the release of endorphins;  but a successful humiliating scene bares us to our most base core that which either we find humiliating as a recipient and hits our most primal levels, OR being willing to do something that would otherwise be considered mean/hurtful if it weren't that the recipient were a willing and consensually engaging partner who craves such "     #done

[09:15] Vanessa Cannoli: yes Johan!

[09:15] Vanessa Cannoli: See...*consensual* humiliation play is making the object/target giddy with delight, even if others see it and say "what the f**k are they doing?"

[09:16] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: At my RL club a Dom guy brought in a very shy girl, had her strip, and led her around on a collar and chain

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: and said "please tell her how beautiful she is and ask if you may touch her"

[09:16] Vanessa Cannoli: which we did and at first she was shy and scared...by the end of the evening she was brimming with delight

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: because she had self-esteem issues and this was to help her break out of her shell

[09:17] Vanessa Cannoli: Vanillas would look and say "wtf is going on?  what is he doing to her??"...but WE get it.

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: All that was 100% spot on Johan, and thanks for sharing from your research.

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: well done!

[09:18] Vanessa Cannoli: We move to Cyan please!

[09:19] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): First I agree with Johan's comments..

[09:19] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I do like some humiliation play, as long as it is consensual.  It's a matter of finding what the sub finds humiliating.  I tend to be subtle in humiliation play,  no overt acts in public per se.   I view it more as a dynamic between my sub and I and view it more as something that is obvious to us, rather then a public demonstration.  For example, leashing is great in and of itself.  But I use an ankle leash holder for my subs.  Most who look at it think it is maybe just a different or cool leash holder...  but to my sub, it is a way of demonstrating to them that not only are you leashed, this is your place, at my feet. #

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: I love that!!!

[09:20] Vanessa Cannoli: is the leash on your ankle, the sub's ankle, or both?

[09:20] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): the leash runs from the subs collar to my ankle

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: nice!

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: very smexy

[09:21] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I also have a thigh holder to run the leash to my thingh

[09:21] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): *thigh

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: cool!

[09:21] Rarden Savage (rarden85): with a hidden object you can have the leash go anywhere

[09:21] Vanessa Cannoli: I love the imagery there

[09:22] Vanessa Cannoli: and the meaning behind it too!

[09:22] Vanessa Cannoli: Thanks for that Cyan! ♥

[09:22] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): yes, you can hide them, but that s not the point.

[09:22] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): The sub must see it to remind them

[09:22] Rarden Savage (rarden85): i meant you can make any object into a holder, then add your narrative

[09:23] Rarden Savage (rarden85): you don't have to "find" said object

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: very cool!

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: thanks Cyan!

[09:23] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:23] Vanessa Cannoli: Jolly we come to you please

[09:23] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): Thank you - here is my thought: Humiliation, Depersonalization, Degredation, and Depersonalization can be a very slippery slope. Others here have mentioned the critical need for negotiations, especially for the emotional kind... but I wanted to mention that over time, certain acts that were once humiliating may no longer be, and it is part of that growth in our individual journeys. For instance, when I was more into pup play (in RL) I didn't mind eating out of a dish....but these days, not really my thing... so understanding yourself, your limits, and what your triggers are are super important. For instance I love to be leashed...it brings me great comfort. I don't find it humiliating to be at my Master's feet...I know it's my place... so I think it's important to investigate the what and why with a type of degredation and if it fulfills something for the power exchange, why not but definitely discuss it first. #

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: Verry well said!

[09:24] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): thank you, :)

[09:24] Vanessa Cannoli: It is my belief that any D/s relationship is a DYNAMIC which means it changes just as you said Jolly

[09:24] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): exactly so

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: What was exciting can become ho-hum, what was "no way ever!" can be "wow this is fun!"

[09:25] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): smiles and nods softly

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: so regular communication is 100% necessary...constantly

[09:25] Vanessa Cannoli: done in a D/s framework of course

[09:25] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): all rel/ships change in time

[09:26] Vanessa Cannoli: but if a Dominant ever told me "You, girl, have no say, just do what you're told"...I'd be running, not walking, to the nearest exit.

[09:26] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): nods to Vanessa

[09:26] Vanessa Cannoli: And you're right Jolly, with Humiliation is this just as important as say impact play.

[09:26] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): perhaps even more so, due to the mental aspects

[09:26] Vanessa Cannoli: We don't just grab a hard paddle and go to town on our sub.

[09:27] Jolly Savage (sclabhai.jolly): hopefully not :)

[09:27] Vanessa Cannoli: How can we do that with their mind and emotions???

[09:27] SierraMysst: we don't?

[09:27] Vanessa Cannoli: I hope not...it's negotiated first...THEN the agreed upon paddling! ;)

[09:27] SierraMysst will have to tell Ali we have to stop that

[09:28] SierraMysst: OH.. no.. I don't do ANYTHING we haven't talked about and agreed upon limits and boundaries

[09:28] Vanessa Cannoli: After "50 Shades" came out we had to stop a number of scenes idiots did at the club...tie down their bottom and just start hitting with something willy nilly...no discussion or prep or warm up and the bottom was yelling in not a good way.

[09:29] Vanessa Cannoli: Right Sierra, if it's negotiated "I'll come home, grab the paddle and get to work" and everyone knows what's up....paddle away!

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli: Jolly thanks for that great contribution!

[09:30] Vanessa Cannoli: Back to Sierra please

[09:30] SierraMysst: I wanted to bring up a form of humiliation play I didn't see mentioned. I'm not sure what to call it but, I have in the past, trained my subs to orgasm on command and that command is usually the end of a countdown. I start at 5 and count down to 1 and when I say "ONE" they would orgasm. Didn't matter where we were. Most often at a restaurant or theater. They were allowed to TRY to keep as quiet as possible, but, more often than not, they weren't very quiet. #

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: Oh yes!

[09:31] SierraMysst: Spirits, I sound like such a BITCH

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: Orgasm training!!

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: No one here would ever do that!  *giggles*

[09:31] SierraMysst laughs

[09:31] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) smiles, knowing Sierra is not the only one to practice this...

[09:31] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes that's definitely a form of humiliation play

[09:32] Vanessa Cannoli wonders how many IMs Sierra is getting right now :P

[09:32] wombaticus: Not from this horse! lol

[09:33] SierraMysst is focussed on this discussion. IMs be damned

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes that's a great form of play, thanks for that one Sierra! ♥

[09:33] Vanessa Cannoli: Back to Cyan please!

[09:34] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): thank you

[09:34] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): Going back to Jolly's comment I agree.  I think communication is the key.  My one sub currently desires to give up all control to be treated as a slave..  We talk about what this means and how we play.  But as the domme, i feel it is on me to monitor her, to make sure she is ok.  I expect and encourage her to speak up if something is not ok.  As you say, relationships and likes/dislikes change.  I always insist on aftercare and checking on my subs... #

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes yes yes

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: 100%

[09:34] Vanessa Cannoli: What we call "Porch Time" around here

[09:35] Vanessa Cannoli: "Tell me what's' really going on.  No holding back, we will discuss everything,."

[09:35] Vanessa Cannoli: Cyan you are doing it 100% right

[09:36] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): I think it is important to the domme as well.. it can be hard to treat someone in this manner as well

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: Yes, that's a really good point

[09:37] Vanessa Cannoli: Like Johan said...he can *do* it but that doesn't mean he's really *into* it.  So he has to be taken into consideration as well -- mental and emotional health.  Same for you, Cyan.

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: And again that's any aspect of what we do

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: if you had asked me 15 years ago "would you see yourself tying people up and beating on them, or being tied up and spanked yourself" I'd have responded "You're crazy"

[09:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Now....*ahem*

[09:39] Vanessa Cannoli: So same with this kind of mental/emotional play, communication has to go both ways.

[09:40] Emerald Ceinder (emerald.celestia) is offline.

[09:40] Vanessa Cannoli: Cyan thanks for bringing that up, very important!!

[09:40] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08) nods

[09:41] Vanessa Cannoli: any further comments or questions on humiliation play?

[09:41] Exa Bratastic (exa.starchild) is offline.

[09:41] Rhonda Bachem (vvranaavv) nods, "None here."

[09:44] Vanessa Cannoli: ok thank youj all for being here and participating!

[09:44] NinaLuciani (ninaconti): 🫶

[09:44] Cyan d'Azure (cyan08): Thanks E/everyone.  And Thanks Vanni for a great discussion  :)

[09:44] Vanessa Cannoli: in two weeks we'll have another topic in S/M before we move to D/s!

M is for Masochism -- June 14, 2026

 [15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll get started!!

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!

 

[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q.  If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top.  The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.

 

[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open.  Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy!  Thank you! ♥

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here:  https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/  It houses current and many older discussions.

 

[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So we continue our yearly walk through the BDSM acronym

 

[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last Klatch was "Sadism" and we had a rousing talk about that!

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we go into Masochism

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please masochistic acts for AFTER the discussion :P

 

[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I of course have some schmaltz and stuff to say on this before we go to comments

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So as I prattle on here, feel free to drop in a C or a Q and then we'll get to the queue.

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism is defined by Mirriam-Webster as "the derivation of sexual gratification from being subjected to physical pain or humiliation by oneself or another person. Pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering"

 

[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): stop squirming you masochists! :P

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *fans myself and continues*

 

[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Continuing with some prepared exposition:  A bit of history:  The term "masochism" was coined by Austrian psychologist Richard von Krafft-Ebing, He took the term from a literary acquaintance of his, Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, an Austrian writer of utopic and more lurid essays, with Krafft-Ebing claiming that Sacher-Masoch often made use of what he termed the "perversion" of masochism in his writing, so he used Sacher-Masoch's name to create the term "masochism."

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As you might imagine, Sacher-Masoch was less then enthused about this, but the term stuck.

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You have to love these Austrian names too, I wonder if being made to write them is a form of Masochism...

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ::P

 

[15:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): /rimshot

 

[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism in the BDSM variety has to be differentiated from sexual masochism disorder, which is a psychiatric problem that refers to “recurrent and intense sexual arousal from the act of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer, as manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors” ONLY if these urges are causing some kind of functional impairment in social, occupational or other areas of one's life.

 

[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If one enjoys said beatings, humiliations, being bound, and it doesn't interfere with daily life....have at it!

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism is not a strange desire for pain in all places and all times (were it, it would fit into the definition of sexual masochism disorder.)

 

[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A masochist, for example, doesn't like a toothache or ask an oral surgeon to do dental surgery minus anesthesia so they can feel pain. They don't go around banging their heads into walls to feel some kind of dangerous "head rush." The pain is a kink, not a mental disorder.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Further, masochists are not dysfunctional in terms of their day to day life. They don't expect others to provide pain, or look for a way to get someone to humiliate them anywhere and everywhere.

 

[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very germane to this discussion:  Masochism is not a single thing -- it is a continuum, and what one masochist might like, another might find highly distasteful for themselves....or, potentially, nowhere near what they need to feel that "kick" that comes with some form of masochism. Masochism is an umbrella term, not one thing.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some masochists simply like minor humiliation, while others like some pretty intense applications of pain.  Everyone is different.

 

[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I watched a very intense electro play scene at my RL club a few years ago.  VERY intense.   Far more than anything I could handle.  But it was very interesting to watch!

 

[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For today's discussion, we will discuss the physical aspects of masochism -- spanking, paddling, flogging, etc -- and in two weeks we'll devote an entire discussion to Humiliation.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Humiliation play is very complex and misunderstood and deserves its own day to discuss.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Maybe I can get Dijanna here as she knows a lot on that topic.

 

[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So with the exposition out of the way....are YOU a masochist?  Do you enjoy pain or some kind of naughty stuff done to you?  Or are You a Dom and enjoy helping your masochist thrive with naughty stuff?  What makes masochists tick?

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have a good crowd, I look forward to what y'all have to say!

 

[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan when you are ready please!

 

[15:53] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): While I'm not a Sadist, I am a service Dominant who is in a relationship with a Masochist.   I find that I get MY sense of pleasure and accomplishment knowing that I've taken care of their needs in a fulfilling and safe manner - and while I don't derive pleasure from hurting them, I Do enjoy seeing the reminders of the scene by way of bruises/marks  only in so far as that it was pleasure and consensual.  #

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So it's less the pain than the "gain" in connection for you?

 

[15:54] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100%

 

[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Perfect!!

 

[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One other question, do you at times feel a sort of quandry within?  "I don't necessarily *like* doing this but look how giddy she is when I do it to her!"

 

[15:56] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): Good question!

 

[15:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Very much so!  especially enjoying the squirming part.   Its an interesting thing we're raised in modern society "Don't beat/hit women"  "Don't be mean" so we have to break a little of that mindset that its not being mean or abusive when they TRULY consent and want/need that, in that aspect its loving and caring.

 

[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's why female subs, slaves and switches are glad to help those with doubts wash them away! :P

 

[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks so much, you always are spot on with what you share.

 

[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wynter we come to you please!

 

[15:59] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): As one of the Switches in the room, I love both dishing pain as much as I love receiving it. And it's often for a similar goal.. just with different approaches and different enjoyments along the way. When I'm being sadistic.. I take joy in the consensual pain I do unto someone else.. how they react.. knowing that they'll hit that endorphin high that I prize myself. When I'm on the other side, being the masochist myself.. I love the rollercoaster I end up on.. moments of dullness as subspace floats.. being alerted again as another strike brings me back to the present.. and the "reset" my body gets once the endorphins come flooding in towards the end of the scene and into aftercare.. the marks are a badge of honor as well!#

 

[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bottom/submissive masochists totally get that:  "Look what my Top/Master/Mistress did to me" in that dreamy voice as they show off the red marks, the bruises....is it getting hot in here again *fans self*

 

[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And of course polite society doesn't get that...heck they'd have said bottom tossed in a 72 hold for potential mental distress

 

[16:02] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): That or protective services called for suspected DV

 

[16:02] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  sighs and nods in agreement.

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly!

 

[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which is why everyone should attend my "BDSM and the Law" workshop (plugs self)

 

[16:02] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Um...not THAT kind of plug you perverts!

 

[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :P

 

[16:03] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident):  laughs

 

[16:03] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Whistle Dixie off tune.

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You explained the feelings of the masochist well Wynter, as well as how the Sadist Top also feeds off that interaction.

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much!!

 

[16:04] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade):  smiles and nods.

 

[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We come to Rubria with a question

 

[16:05] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Miss Vanessa, do you think that breath play could be considered part of masochism?

 

[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone can answer that....no C please

 

[16:06] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I'd say while it could fit into the realm of masochism, I'd say it's more of an edge play because of the inherent risk of restricting the airway.

 

[16:06] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I would consider it Edge play more so than Masochism as there isn't much in the humilation or 'pain' of having ones breath withheld.   But, that doesn't make it any less valid, and that is just my opinion.

 

[16:07] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Great minds :)

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): stereo! ;)

 

[16:07]  (Benedetta it>en): first of all we should learn to breathe and I don't mean breathing by opening the mouth, but I mean breathing to experience those emotions that certain actions can give and then think about how to categorize that action, but first let's learn to breathe the emotions...miles

 

[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nice point Benedetta!

 

[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I should caveat...

 

[16:08] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): If you DO enjoy the throbbing headache from having held your breath TOO long to that point you are seeing spots/face turning red.. MAYBE a bit of masochism?

 

[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point!

 

[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i've been told that what we call "breath play" is really the fingers cutting off the circulation to the brain via the carartic arteries for a short time to make the bottom feel lightheaded...it doesn't involve actually choking someone as that would cause damage

 

[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): IT depends...

 

[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It could also be simply pinching off the nose, or a hand over the mouth, completely avoiding the neck area

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bjut I don't know that from experience as i can't do any "breath play" at all -- I nearly died from an asthma attack so any hand to my throat will set me immediately into a panic

 

[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that would set me off too Johan so I have no experience

 

[16:11] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): **nods** It is definitely not something  anyone should try without knowing the physiology of the body, very risky to damage the throat/hyoid, and even 'blood' restrictions have an inherent danger to them.

 

[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The "strange" thing is even here in SL if someone says in a scene "I put my hand to your throat" I will literaly relive that not being able to breathe

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Johan!

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So spank my ass as hard as you want, just no throat....wait, what am I saying...

 

[16:12] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): The psychological side of the action is very powerful, and that alone is enough to create a strong reaction."#

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): RETRACT

 

[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Rubia!

 

[16:12] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahahaha

 

[16:12] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): snickers

 

[16:12]  (Benedetta it>en): I don't think it's strange Miss Vanessa...maybe it's simply due to your emotional state resulting from that action that affects your mind

 

[16:13] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Yes, VERY dangerous to do! could cause aggressive reaction. Needs to be in negotiation

 

[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): OK Rubria thanks for that question!

 

[16:15] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you for the comments

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan has a question!

 

[16:16] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Any of the Masochists (Switchy, or non), what is the best way you've found for a TOP to help a masochist who may be questioning themselves regarding if they are too much of a masochist or if they are 'broken' in being Masochism?

 

[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ooo good question!

 

[16:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): how many masochists present here

 

[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): part time! :P

 

[16:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)

 

[16:17] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): raises hand,  Is...

 

[16:18]  (Benedetta it>en): perhaps "too much" does not exist for a simple reason that a Dominant who knows his ub never inflicts something...too much, he stops a moment before so too much is something that remains only in our curiosity

 

[16:18] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): one and a half

 

[16:18] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Shakes head no.

 

[16:18] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Well to start with, Vanni's definition is definitely the standard mental health wise.. if they're seeking situations that inhibit their ability to function in life, they may be broken in those terms.. otherwise, if they have other kinks and they can't engage in them.. it's more of a soul searching situation.. is this a momentary phase, can I have pleasure from other kinky elements other than pain? A lot of self-reflection will help here.#

 

[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Benedetta that's why I push "check in a lot" during a scene...as a Top I do not want my bottom to need to safeword, I want to keep close tabs on them.  But, some people don't do that (I'm sure no one here)

 

[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And when I bottom believe me, if something isn't going right, a Yellow comes out and we chat...bottoms and subs, do that.

 

[16:20]  (Benedetta it>en): but then let's go back to the relationship of trust that is created between dominant and sub

 

[16:21] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): There are metal tricks to trigger the same endorphin push in a masochist and just hve to touch them Or genlty tao.

 

[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan I think before a scene a long conversation is necessary to first figure out where the self-doubts are in the masochist.  Maybe they *think* they need to be the proverbial "pain slut" but really other things turn them on

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people in our lifestyle do connect to stereotypes and think "I need to be like that."  No, you need to be YOU.

 

[16:22] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the self doubts aren’t "Am I a masochist"  its " Why am I a masochist?"

 

[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh!  That's a different psychology!

 

[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Self-shame is something else that nags at people, also with Sadists..."why the f**k do I like BEATING people who want it?"

 

[16:25] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): To add to that then, when I came into the lifestyle.. I wasn't into pain. I actually avoided pain for many years. Eventually when I discovered it, it just became another kink that I could enjoy. I had some self-shame from marks on my body at first.. mainly because I got ribbed a lot by fellow service members.. but in the end it's become a very healthy expression and very helpful for me to experience when I need it.#

 

[16:26] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ::Nods:: I think its the fear of being 'different' or 'abnormal' when its not abnormal- its very normal in the Kink Community.  Its just not as openly discussed amongst the NON_Kink community.   I agree with what you and Wynter said earlier,  as long as its not inhibiting your functionality day to day or enjoying other things outside of pain, its healthy and normal.    Its when it becomes a psychosis type issue that you cannot get off without the pain, or begin to find unhealthy ways to receive it or it becomes your sole focus, that there is a problem. Otherwise its healthy exploration and experiences. #

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think a way to overcome that shame for masochists is that the Top or Dom use lots of positive affirmation during any scene -- "God you look so beautiful with my marks on you" "I love seeing you nude on your knees before me, gorgeous."

 

[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right Johan

 

[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if it's in any way debilitating then it needs to be addressed with a professional

 

[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100%

 

[16:28] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): There is a movie with Stellan Skaarsgard that perfectly shows that line - though for the life of me I can't remember it off the top of my head

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Vanillas think scenes we do are some disgusting act of violence...they watch too much porn.  What we do is beautiful, and a real connection, and should always be treated as such.

 

[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Nymphomaniac V1&2 )

 

[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think approaching BDSM like that is affirming and will help to diminish the self-doubts the world likes to instill in us.

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I'll stop preaching!  *hides soapbox*

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks for that question!

 

[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lets go to wombaticus!

 

[16:32] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): I had to change it a bit, but here is the gist. Roman Catholic sect called "Flagellist:. They became to being whipped. Provided a form of carthotic release. Would that fit in this?

 

[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Absolutely

 

[16:32] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Or just an Endorphin rush addicts?

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Different psychology but it fits the masochistic bill.

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well it probably led to that lol

 

[16:33] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Thanks, shutting up now,

 

[16:33]  (Benedetta it>en): there is a religious community in rl they are called the Benedictines... if you are sensitive go and read the chapters of their statute... they are the most marked expression of BDSM

 

[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Christianity has had a long history of some kind of self-mortification to atone and purify oneself, so have other world religions and paths.

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right Benedetta!

 

[16:34] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): well said

 

[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Pretty much EVERY ethnocentric group did some sort of physical endorphin experience

 

[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bingo, Johan

 

[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Enduring the Ordeal" is a rite of passage in nearly any group we can think of

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now we go to clubs and endure, or administer, the ordeal *grins*

 

[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): life was good as pagans

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's the ideal ordeal!

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫ rimshot ♫

 

[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sigh I miss having Brianne about for these

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks wombaticus!

 

[16:37] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): yw

 

[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Are there any other questions or comments on the topic of Masochism?

 

[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we have a bit of time don't be afraid to participate!

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well ok then!  Thank you all for being here and giving great comments and questions!

 

[16:39]  (Lexie):  spanked wombaticus's ass

 

[16:39]  (Benedetta it>en): thank you all...smiles

 

[16:39] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Always a pleasure, Vanni. :)

 

[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan is at the Pier next Sunday morning spinning tunes...and we'll be back here in two weeks with a discussion on Humiliation Play!

 

[16:39] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thank you Vanni..missed being here

 

[16:40] Jackie Rossi (VintageUnconventional Resident): Thank you for the discussion, Vanni!