[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll get started!!
[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and
welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep
further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy! Thank you! ♥
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So we continue
our yearly walk through the BDSM acronym
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last Klatch was
"Sadism" and we had a rousing talk about that!
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we go into
Masochism
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please
masochistic acts for AFTER the discussion :P
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I of course have
some schmaltz and stuff to say on this before we go to comments
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So as I prattle
on here, feel free to drop in a C or a Q and then we'll get to the queue.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism is
defined by Mirriam-Webster as "the derivation of sexual gratification from
being subjected to physical pain or humiliation by oneself or another person.
Pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering"
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): stop squirming
you masochists! :P
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *fans myself and
continues*
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Continuing with
some prepared exposition: A bit of
history: The term "masochism"
was coined by Austrian psychologist Richard von Krafft-Ebing, He took the term
from a literary acquaintance of his, Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, an Austrian
writer of utopic and more lurid essays, with Krafft-Ebing claiming that
Sacher-Masoch often made use of what he termed the "perversion" of
masochism in his writing, so he used Sacher-Masoch's name to create the term
"masochism."
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As you might
imagine, Sacher-Masoch was less then enthused about this, but the term stuck.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You have to love
these Austrian names too, I wonder if being made to write them is a form of
Masochism...
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ::P
[15:45] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): /rimshot
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism in the
BDSM variety has to be differentiated from sexual masochism disorder, which is
a psychiatric problem that refers to “recurrent and intense sexual arousal from
the act of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer, as
manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors” ONLY if these urges are causing
some kind of functional impairment in social, occupational or other areas of
one's life.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If one enjoys
said beatings, humiliations, being bound, and it doesn't interfere with daily
life....have at it!
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism is not
a strange desire for pain in all places and all times (were it, it would fit
into the definition of sexual masochism disorder.)
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A masochist, for
example, doesn't like a toothache or ask an oral surgeon to do dental surgery
minus anesthesia so they can feel pain. They don't go around banging their
heads into walls to feel some kind of dangerous "head rush." The pain
is a kink, not a mental disorder.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Further,
masochists are not dysfunctional in terms of their day to day life. They don't
expect others to provide pain, or look for a way to get someone to humiliate
them anywhere and everywhere.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very germane to
this discussion: Masochism is not a
single thing -- it is a continuum, and what one masochist might like, another
might find highly distasteful for themselves....or, potentially, nowhere near
what they need to feel that "kick" that comes with some form of
masochism. Masochism is an umbrella term, not one thing.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some masochists
simply like minor humiliation, while others like some pretty intense
applications of pain. Everyone is
different.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I watched a very
intense electro play scene at my RL club a few years ago. VERY intense. Far more than anything I could handle. But it was very interesting to watch!
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): For today's
discussion, we will discuss the physical aspects of masochism -- spanking,
paddling, flogging, etc -- and in two weeks we'll devote an entire discussion
to Humiliation.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Humiliation play
is very complex and misunderstood and deserves its own day to discuss.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Maybe I can get
Dijanna here as she knows a lot on that topic.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So with the
exposition out of the way....are YOU a masochist? Do you enjoy pain or some kind of naughty
stuff done to you? Or are You a Dom and
enjoy helping your masochist thrive with naughty stuff? What makes masochists tick?
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have a good
crowd, I look forward to what y'all have to say!
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan when you
are ready please!
[15:53] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): While I'm not a
Sadist, I am a service Dominant who is in a relationship with a Masochist. I find that I get MY sense of pleasure and
accomplishment knowing that I've taken care of their needs in a fulfilling and
safe manner - and while I don't derive pleasure from hurting them, I Do enjoy
seeing the reminders of the scene by way of bruises/marks only in so far as that it was pleasure and
consensual. #
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So it's less the
pain than the "gain" in connection for you?
[15:54] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100%
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Perfect!!
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One other
question, do you at times feel a sort of quandry within? "I don't necessarily *like* doing this
but look how giddy she is when I do it to her!"
[15:56] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): Good question!
[15:57] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Very much so! especially enjoying the squirming part. Its an interesting thing we're raised in
modern society "Don't beat/hit women"
"Don't be mean" so we have to break a little of that mindset
that its not being mean or abusive when they TRULY consent and want/need that,
in that aspect its loving and caring.
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed!
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's why female
subs, slaves and switches are glad to help those with doubts wash them away! :P
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks so
much, you always are spot on with what you share.
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wynter we come to
you please!
[15:59] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): As one of the
Switches in the room, I love both dishing pain as much as I love receiving it.
And it's often for a similar goal.. just with different approaches and
different enjoyments along the way. When I'm being sadistic.. I take joy in the
consensual pain I do unto someone else.. how they react.. knowing that they'll
hit that endorphin high that I prize myself. When I'm on the other side, being
the masochist myself.. I love the rollercoaster I end up on.. moments of
dullness as subspace floats.. being alerted again as another strike brings me
back to the present.. and the "reset" my body gets once the
endorphins come flooding in towards the end of the scene and into aftercare..
the marks are a badge of honor as well!#
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bottom/submissive
masochists totally get that: "Look
what my Top/Master/Mistress did to me" in that dreamy voice as they show
off the red marks, the bruises....is it getting hot in here again *fans self*
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And of course
polite society doesn't get that...heck they'd have said bottom tossed in a 72
hold for potential mental distress
[16:02] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): That or protective
services called for suspected DV
[16:02] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): sighs and nods in agreement.
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Exactly!
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which is why
everyone should attend my "BDSM and the Law" workshop (plugs self)
[16:02] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Um...not THAT
kind of plug you perverts!
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): :P
[16:03] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): laughs
[16:03] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Whistle Dixie off
tune.
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You explained the
feelings of the masochist well Wynter, as well as how the Sadist Top also feeds
off that interaction.
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much!!
[16:04] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): smiles and nods.
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We come to Rubria
with a question
[16:05] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Miss Vanessa, do you
think that breath play could be considered part of masochism?
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Anyone can answer
that....no C please
[16:06] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I'd say while it
could fit into the realm of masochism, I'd say it's more of an edge play
because of the inherent risk of restricting the airway.
[16:06] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I would consider it
Edge play more so than Masochism as there isn't much in the humilation or
'pain' of having ones breath withheld.
But, that doesn't make it any less valid, and that is just my opinion.
[16:07] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Great minds :)
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): stereo! ;)
[16:07] (Benedetta
it>en): first of all we should learn to breathe and I don't mean breathing
by opening the mouth, but I mean breathing to experience those emotions that
certain actions can give and then think about how to categorize that action,
but first let's learn to breathe the emotions...miles
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nice point
Benedetta!
[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I should caveat...
[16:08] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): If you DO enjoy the
throbbing headache from having held your breath TOO long to that point you are
seeing spots/face turning red.. MAYBE a bit of masochism?
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good point!
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): i've been told
that what we call "breath play" is really the fingers cutting off the
circulation to the brain via the carartic arteries for a short time to make the
bottom feel lightheaded...it doesn't involve actually choking someone as that
would cause damage
[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): IT depends...
[16:10] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It could also be
simply pinching off the nose, or a hand over the mouth, completely avoiding the
neck area
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bjut I don't know
that from experience as i can't do any "breath play" at all -- I
nearly died from an asthma attack so any hand to my throat will set me
immediately into a panic
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that would set me
off too Johan so I have no experience
[16:11] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): **nods** It is
definitely not something anyone should
try without knowing the physiology of the body, very risky to damage the
throat/hyoid, and even 'blood' restrictions have an inherent danger to them.
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The
"strange" thing is even here in SL if someone says in a scene "I
put my hand to your throat" I will literaly relive that not being able to
breathe
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Johan!
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So spank my ass
as hard as you want, just no throat....wait, what am I saying...
[16:12] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): The psychological
side of the action is very powerful, and that alone is enough to create a
strong reaction."#
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): RETRACT
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Rubia!
[16:12] Sara Starchild (Sara Starchild): hahahaha
[16:12] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): snickers
[16:12] (Benedetta
it>en): I don't think it's strange Miss Vanessa...maybe it's simply due to
your emotional state resulting from that action that affects your mind
[16:13] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Yes, VERY
dangerous to do! could cause aggressive reaction. Needs to be in negotiation
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): OK Rubria thanks
for that question!
[16:15] Rubria (RubriaDomus Resident): Thank you for the
comments
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan has a
question!
[16:16] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Any of the Masochists
(Switchy, or non), what is the best way you've found for a TOP to help a
masochist who may be questioning themselves regarding if they are too much of a
masochist or if they are 'broken' in being Masochism?
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ooo good
question!
[16:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): how many
masochists present here
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): part time! :P
[16:17] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): :)
[16:17] ayelara K (GiadaGalatea Resident): raises hand, Is...
[16:18] (Benedetta
it>en): perhaps "too much" does not exist for a simple reason that
a Dominant who knows his ub never inflicts something...too much, he stops a
moment before so too much is something that remains only in our curiosity
[16:18] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): one and a
half
[16:18] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Shakes head no.
[16:18] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Well to start
with, Vanni's definition is definitely the standard mental health wise.. if
they're seeking situations that inhibit their ability to function in life, they
may be broken in those terms.. otherwise, if they have other kinks and they
can't engage in them.. it's more of a soul searching situation.. is this a
momentary phase, can I have pleasure from other kinky elements other than pain?
A lot of self-reflection will help here.#
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Benedetta that's
why I push "check in a lot" during a scene...as a Top I do not want
my bottom to need to safeword, I want to keep close tabs on them. But, some people don't do that (I'm sure no
one here)
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And when I bottom
believe me, if something isn't going right, a Yellow comes out and we
chat...bottoms and subs, do that.
[16:20] (Benedetta
it>en): but then let's go back to the relationship of trust that is created
between dominant and sub
[16:21] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): There are metal
tricks to trigger the same endorphin push in a masochist and just hve to touch
them Or genlty tao.
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan I think
before a scene a long conversation is necessary to first figure out where the
self-doubts are in the masochist. Maybe
they *think* they need to be the proverbial "pain slut" but really
other things turn them on
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people in
our lifestyle do connect to stereotypes and think "I need to be like
that." No, you need to be YOU.
[16:22] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the self
doubts aren’t "Am I a masochist"
its " Why am I a masochist?"
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh! That's a different psychology!
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Self-shame is
something else that nags at people, also with Sadists..."why the f**k do I
like BEATING people who want it?"
[16:25] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): To add to that
then, when I came into the lifestyle.. I wasn't into pain. I actually avoided
pain for many years. Eventually when I discovered it, it just became another
kink that I could enjoy. I had some self-shame from marks on my body at first..
mainly because I got ribbed a lot by fellow service members.. but in the end
it's become a very healthy expression and very helpful for me to experience
when I need it.#
[16:26] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ::Nods:: I think its
the fear of being 'different' or 'abnormal' when its not abnormal- its very
normal in the Kink Community. Its just
not as openly discussed amongst the NON_Kink community. I agree with what you and Wynter said
earlier, as long as its not inhibiting
your functionality day to day or enjoying other things outside of pain, its
healthy and normal. Its when it
becomes a psychosis type issue that you cannot get off without the pain, or
begin to find unhealthy ways to receive it or it becomes your sole focus, that
there is a problem. Otherwise its healthy exploration and experiences. #
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think a way to
overcome that shame for masochists is that the Top or Dom use lots of positive
affirmation during any scene -- "God you look so beautiful with my marks
on you" "I love seeing you nude on your knees before me,
gorgeous."
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): right Johan
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if it's in any
way debilitating then it needs to be addressed with a professional
[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): 100%
[16:28] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): There is a movie with
Stellan Skaarsgard that perfectly shows that line - though for the life of me I
can't remember it off the top of my head
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Vanillas think
scenes we do are some disgusting act of violence...they watch too much
porn. What we do is beautiful, and a
real connection, and should always be treated as such.
[16:29] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Nymphomaniac V1&2
)
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I think
approaching BDSM like that is affirming and will help to diminish the
self-doubts the world likes to instill in us.
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I'll stop
preaching! *hides soapbox*
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan thanks for
that question!
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lets go to
wombaticus!
[16:32] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): I had to change it
a bit, but here is the gist. Roman Catholic sect called "Flagellist:. They
became to being whipped. Provided a form of carthotic release. Would that fit
in this?
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Absolutely
[16:32] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Or just an
Endorphin rush addicts?
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Different
psychology but it fits the masochistic bill.
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well it probably
led to that lol
[16:33] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): Thanks, shutting
up now,
[16:33] (Benedetta
it>en): there is a religious community in rl they are called the
Benedictines... if you are sensitive go and read the chapters of their
statute... they are the most marked expression of BDSM
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Christianity has
had a long history of some kind of self-mortification to atone and purify
oneself, so have other world religions and paths.
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right Benedetta!
[16:34] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): well said
[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Pretty much EVERY
ethnocentric group did some sort of physical endorphin experience
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bingo, Johan
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Enduring
the Ordeal" is a rite of passage in nearly any group we can think of
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now we go to
clubs and endure, or administer, the ordeal *grins*
[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): life was
good as pagans
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's the ideal
ordeal!
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫
rimshot ♫
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sigh I miss
having Brianne about for these
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks
wombaticus!
[16:37] wombaticus (wombaticus Resident): yw
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Are there any
other questions or comments on the topic of Masochism?
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we have a bit of
time don't be afraid to participate!
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well ok
then! Thank you all for being here and
giving great comments and questions!
[16:39] (Lexie): spanked wombaticus's ass
[16:39] (Benedetta
it>en): thank you all...smiles
[16:39] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Always a
pleasure, Vanni. :)
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan is at the
Pier next Sunday morning spinning tunes...and we'll be back here in two weeks
with a discussion on Humiliation Play!
[16:39] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thank you
Vanni..missed being here
[16:40] Jackie Rossi (VintageUnconventional Resident): Thank
you for the discussion, Vanni!
