[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok well it is us so we will start up!
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and
welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With this
discussion group we go through the BDSM acronym at the beginning of the year.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Last week we went
over "Bondage" and that discussion can be found on the archive in the
link I just posted above.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This week is
Discipline, the second part of the B/D pair of BDSM
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discipline is the
act of some kind of punishment or correction of a person.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Parents instill
discipline in their kids via punishments of types for wrongdoing. And hopefully via positive reinforcement for
a job well done.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have talked
about this a few times, but in the interest of clarity and for newer folks, we
have two ways to look at this.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First is actual
punishment. Punishment is a tool in a
D/s relationship for the breaking of a rule that has been negotiated between
the Dominant and the submissive. Any
rule within the agreed upon limits of the relationship needs to be obeyed, so a
punishment is to stop a behavior that is not desired.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In the behavioral
sciences, we talk about reinforcement and punishment. We want to reinforce desired behaviors and
punish bad behaviors to keep them from happening.
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There are
different ways to do both that are beyond the scope of this discussion really.
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, if we really
need to punish any person....wayward child, naughty sub...then the punishment
needs to have three characteristics:
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First it must be
swift, done as close as possible in time to the infraction.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or it loses
connection from act to punishment.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Second it must be
certain, it WILL happen, or the punisher (not the comic book character) will
look weak in the eyes of the person and so not an authority figure.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And third, it
must be Rational, meaning the level of punishment is tied to the infraction.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Insane
punishments for light infractions just breed contempt.
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And light
punishments for serious infractions teach nothing.
[15:52] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in
agreement
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "You killed
AGAIN Miss Cannoli? That's another $100
fine for you!"
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd be droppin'
Franklins like candy
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But obviously
that wouldn't work well to deter anything *grins*
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good Doms will
reinforce positive things in their charges, and use punishment sparingly but
WILL do it if/when necessary.
[15:53] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The other kind of
Discipline is what we lovingly call here "funishment'
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or acts between
the Dom and sub that are really more of a negotiated role play to get a scene
going.
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But are not
really infractions of rules.
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So a sub might
stick their tongue out at their Dom ....but between them they know this is an
allowed bit of play to start up a scene of some kind.
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The sub isn't
really being a prig. If they were...that
would cause a *real* punishment.
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Lots of Dom and
subs have little games they play with each other that are negotiated, or even
parts of larger role plays.
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some subs can
look like utter brats! But with their
Dom it's clear it's part of their banter
and how they roll.
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That is all
"Funishment."
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So two questions
for Y/you today:
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 1) Do Y/you enjoy
"funishment" and do Y/you use it in your D/s interactions, or
not? (some will not, seeing it trite)
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 2) If there
is real discipline that needs to be administered, how is it handled?
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Feel free to drop
a C or Q in chat after ruminating on it a bit!
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Meme we will
start with you when ready!
[15:58] Meme Aeon (Sozome Resident): I don't want to derail
the flow butI always view discipline in the BDSM context much more in line with
the word's etymology: And actually totally disconnected from punishment, which,
in my mind is a completely differently striped animal. (more...)
[15:58] Meme Aeon (Sozome Resident): * The word
"discipline" derives from the Latin word disciplina, which means
"instruction, teaching, learning, or knowledge." It also carried
connotations of training, order, and self-control.
[15:58] Meme Aeon (Sozome Resident): Done
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% agreed Meme
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discipline isn't
about punishment for the sake of doing something awful to a person
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In fact we would
call that *abuse* in this lifestyle I beleive.
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The idea with
discipline is indeed to instill in the person order and conformity to however
the "command" desires it.
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So you are 100%
spot on with that.
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Meme!
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sir Magnus when
ready please!
[16:03] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Personally, I enjoy
a degree of playfulness from my subs, so I encourage funishments where
appropriate. I always like to state from the beginning, that I will never
strike a woman in anger, only for fun.
[16:04] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): Done
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree fully
Sir!
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As
"funishment" is really connected to play-time, it IMO should be seen
as reward for obedience and fulfilling
the desires of one's Dominant (which in part can be the fun of the
"funishment!")
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So that was an
excellent point, thank You Sir!
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We move to Callie
with a question....
[16:06] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): My question is
for the room. How do you make sure your are dealing in punishment, not
funishment... and vice versa?
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Floor is open to
answer
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no C is required
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (subs can answer
from their perspective of being the object of the fun/punishment
[16:08] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): Well, I think
you really have to have communication to get to know each other first. ...
[16:08] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): it depends of what has
been created between the Master and the sub. what sort of dynamic i guess
[16:09] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): You need a
relationship first. I wouldn't let just anyone "punish" me in the
first place.
[16:10] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): And in building
that relationship, my Dominant knows what I like and what I don't like. What
someone else would consider punishment, I might consider fun, and vice versa.
And something that wouldn't bother someone else would be absolutely devastating
to me.
[16:10] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): In my opinion, that
comes from open and honest communication between the Dom and sub. Subs are
smart, regardless of what some people might think. They know that punishments
will be necessary at times and an open and honest discussion about what is best
for that sub can go a long way. If they decide that they hate timeouts, but
they're willing to accept timeouts as punishments, then there's a tool in the
toolbag. If they love spankings, that's not useful as a punishment, of course,
so that tool goes into a different toolbag.
[16:10] Meme Aeon (Sozome Resident): when my Master uses
physcial discipline he does so for my emotional well being and his enjoyment.
When he punishes me, the few times he has done so, it is always crystal clear
that it is a punishment.
[16:11] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): My Master knows
that spanking isn't a punishment for me. What is more effective for me is
taking away something I like, such as "you're not allowed to pose on the
fountain for two weeks."
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with May
that a scene where even some serious S/M is going on is not 'punishment'
between the Top and Bottom if there is no relationship.
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If someone said
to me "Vanni I'm going to punish you for XXX" and I don't know who
this person is...I'm leaving! lol
[16:12] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): Indeed!
[16:13] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): No one has the
right to punish a sub without consent. Plain and simple.
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And Sir Magnus I
agree that different people have different reactions to anything, so the line
between punishment and funishment for each person is definitely subjective.
[16:14] Haven Enigma (Haven Enigma): Punishment is not a
scene. It is not performative. It's designed to change behavior, and to work,
that purpose has to be clear to both parties.
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And Meme I am
glad the relationship with Sir Sahrin and you is healthy :)
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Correct Haven
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): A scene is
fun....punishment is serious.
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in fact, if the
s-type is giggling their way through what the Dom sees as punishment, that becomes a real
"Topping from the Bottom" situation, IMO.
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it is
manipulation
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bad!
[16:17] Haven Enigma (Haven Enigma): Or a miscommunication.
Sometimes subs don't realize they've crossed a line, and sometimes Dom s use
the same technique for both fun0 and punishment.
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said A/all!
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Callie did you
get your question covered fully?
[16:17] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): nods
and smiles. "Thank you everyone."
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Eleonor your
comment please!
[16:18] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): I agree with all what has
been said about discipline so far. For me, it is very arousing because it is
the way my Owner chose to enforce and teach and make His points clear. It is
His power in action.
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!!
[16:19] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): thank you Vanessa
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Correction done
in the proper way builds the relationship between the persons as you said
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because everyone
will mess up somewhere at some time
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so for minor
things gentle correction to get that trait, that undesired behavior out is
really to be appreciated I'd think.
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): After all, a
submissive person wants to *serve* I'd think...and do it well.
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Major
correction/discipline is best left to serious misdeeds.
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But...
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): if that's a
regular feature of the situation, regular misdeeds, regular need for serious
discipline...
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): well speaking for
myself...I'd look long and hard at that relationship.
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But I will leave
what that is to each person to decide.
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Eleonor, very
very well said!
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have one more
question but before I get to it I want to leave room for any other general
comments or questions so I'll wait a minute.
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So here in SL, we
are not tactile, meaning a spank is in what I like calling the "Theater of
the Mind" as is any other kind of S/M things like flogging, etc.
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in fact even
touch and sex are in the mind unless some kind of mirroring is going on during
the scene or act
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, do physical
punishments work here at all? And worse,
as many bottoms and s-types *like* spanking...even if it were tactile, how
would that work as a punishment? And if
it doesn't .. what does work here to instill discipline minus tactile feelings?
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just give an
answer if Y/you have one
[16:28] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): Well, as I said
earlier, sometimes taking away something the sub really likes is an effective
punishment. Like if the sub is a real Hand & Foot addict, telling him or
her no games allowed for a week would be a real punishment.
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): looks
at May and wonders if that's from experience :P
[16:29] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): looks
innocent
[16:29] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): So, spanking
doesn't work on me. But telling me I can't pose for two weeks would be tough!
[16:29] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): #
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And I assume that
He would leave that for a pretty serious infraction
[16:31] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): Yes. Usually we
just talk if I've done something wrong. And sometimes it's just a
misunderstanding and he decides no further punishment is needed.
[16:31] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): Sometimes just
the "TALK" is enough punishment.
[16:31] Sahrin Aeon (SARIN Aeon): The use of what appears to
be tactile punishment Is only effective if the visual has correlation To an
emotional connection #
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Sir....the
*reason* that is happening
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which leads back
to what May just said....the talk leads to the act and many times the act of
punishment isn't necessary
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We all mess up
now and then, but subbies here....I'm sure you know that just hearing "you
did wrong, you messed up" is usually enough to make us feel horrible.
[16:34] May O. Mingzi (MayOMingzi Resident): nods
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What else is
necessary really for that offense?
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But if it's done
again...and again....that's a HABIT
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And that's a real
problem
[16:34] Connie (Constanse Levenque): looks
at Vanni and nods
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And the Dominant
really needs to look and consider the situation.
[16:34] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): So, in my view,
there's a corollary between physical in-person punishment and virtual
punishment. Physical punishments are just a shortcut to the emotional reaction.
Bad behavior=bad consequence, just as good behavior=good consequence. The bad
consequence part of that equation can be just as effective whether it's
physical, emotional, or any agreed-upon punishment. In the end, we all make the
majority of our decisions from an emotional foundation. So, when the sub feels
the desire to do something that qualifies as the bad behavior part of that
equation, there's an emotional reaction to the bad consequence part of the
equation. That's the real key -- the emotional reaction that the sub develops
to any given behavior.
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed Sir, well
said.
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I would also
question the motivation for doing the bad behavior.
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I teach
criminology and I know that criminals are usually rather impulsive and don't do
much reward vs risk thinking for the majority of crimes they commit.
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But the person
who stops and thinks "what is the reward for crime/bad behavior?" ...
that's a different issue
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, again IMO...a
sub that is doing reward vs risk thinking for bad behavior is either 1) a total
brat (which is a different kettle of fish) or 2) not really very submissive.
They are a manipulator.
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's my opinion
however...I don't say it's a fact *grins*
[16:39] Magnus Diavolo (Magnus Diavolo): That's an excellent
observation, though, Vanni.
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The price of
education here Sir *giggles*
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank You!
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So...any other
comments or questions on our topic of Discipline?
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Eleonor please
[16:41] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): bad behavior would be
from a sub that is a brat (no offense, some really love to be so and some
Masters love that also) , and for me it's just the way their relationship is.
The problem is if the Master is not aware of that :)
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We will talk
about brats later this spring or early summer
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): when we talk
about submissive types
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's the D/s
part but in a number of weeks *grins*
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I do love talking
about brats as it stirs up some controversy lol
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and I don't mean
bratwurst
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): some think brats
are the wurst though
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫
rimshot ♫
[16:43] Connie (Constanse Levenque): giggles
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): sorry had to get
that one in
[16:43] Haven Enigma (Haven Enigma): laughs
[16:43] Eleonor Xue (Eleonor Xue): smiles !
[16:43] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): giggles
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I mustard up my
courage for it
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♫
rimshot ♫
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok before this
devolves into bad stand up
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank Y/you all
for coming today and giving thoughts on this topic!
[16:43] Haven Enigma (Haven Enigma): snickers, "And now the puns must
flow..."
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back in two weeks
to talk about.....Sadism!
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Have a lovely
rest of the weekend please!
[16:44] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles.
"Thank you Vanni."
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