[08:38] Vanessa Cannoli: Good morning and welcome to Koffee
Klatch!
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I have some
exposition before we take comments
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as thoughts come
up, just say C or Q and then we'll work through the queue
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Two weeks ago we
discussed Sadism, the S of BDSM
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): today we discuss
Masochism, obviously the M
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism is
defined by Mirriam-Webster as "the derivation of sexual gratification from
being subjected to physical pain or humiliation by oneself or another person.
Pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering"
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Continuing with
some prepared exposition: A bit of
history: The term "masochism"
was coined by Austrian psychologist Richard von Krafft-Ebing, He took the term
from a literary acquaintance of his, Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, an Austrian
writer of utopic and more lurid essays, with Krafft-Ebing claiming that
Sacher-Masoch often made use of what he termed the "perversion" of
masochism in his writing, so he used Sacher-Masoch's name to create the term
"masochism."
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As you might
imagine, Sacher-Masoch was less then enthused about this, but the term stuck.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You have to love
these Austrian names too, I wonder if being made to write them is a form of
Masochism...
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I wanna be
"Vanessa Rebecca Cannoli von Lasagne
[15:44] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): a mouth full
[15:44] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): But delicious!
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You ain't seen
half of it babe! ;)
[15:44] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): giggles
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): blows
Callie a kiss
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): continuing!
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism in the
BDSM variety has to be differentiated from sexual masochism disorder, which is
a psychiatric problem that refers to “recurrent and intense sexual arousal from
the act of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer, as
manifested by fantasies, urges, or behaviors” ONLY if these urges are causing
some kind of functional impairment in social, occupational or other areas of
one's life.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If you like those
things and they cause no impairment to your life, you're all good!
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Masochism is not
a strange desire for pain in all places and all times (were it, it would fit
into the definition of sexual masochism disorder.) A masochist, for example,
doesn't like a toothache or ask an oral surgeon to do dental surgery minus
anesthesia so they can feel pain. They don't go around banging their heads into
walls to feel some kind of dangerous "head rush." The pain is a kink,
not a mental disorder.
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Further,
masochists are not dysfunctional in terms of their day to day life. They don't
expect others to provide pain, or look for a way to get someone to humiliate
them anywhere and everywhere. (similar to how healthy sadists only practice
sadism on consenting adults, not just be sadistic anywhere all the time)
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Very germane to
this discussion: Masochism is not a
single thing -- it is a continuum, and what one masochist might like, another
might find highly distasteful for themselves....or, potentially, nowhere near
what they need to feel that "kick" that comes with some form of
masochism. Masochism is an umbrella term, not one thing. Some masochists simply like humiliation,
while others like some pretty intense applications of pain. Everyone is different.
[15:48] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in
agreement.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I watched a very
intense electro play scene at my RL club a couple years ago. VERY intense. Far more than anything I could handle. But it was very interesting to watch!
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I've also seen
bloodplay and really humilating foodplay so....everyone's different.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or maybe it's
just a classic spanking! (yes, please!)
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): with a side
salad! ;)
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So with the
exposition out of the way....are YOU a masochist? Do you enjoy pain or some kind of naughty
stuff done to you? Or are You a Dom and enjoy helping your masochist thrive with
naughty stuff? What makes masochists
tick?
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ): We have a good
assembly here so I look forward to Y/your thoughts!
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): drinks
coffee and waits as the wheels turn
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Callie when you
are ready please!
[15:52] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): I definitely
consider myself a masochist. When asked, I like to quote the line from Red Hot
Chili Pepper: "I like my pleasure spiked with pain." But in addition
to that, I do like a bit of private humiliation, name calling, slaps, etc, but
I draw the line at being treated that way in public. (continuing)
[15:55] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): That being
said, I have found that not everyone understands that line. I recently
encountered a sadist who seemed great. We were discussing my wants and needs,
only to be completely humiliated in public when he went from talking with me to
having sex with another girl in the room without a second thought, expecting
that I would like that, watching him with her, because I had expressed that I
enjoyed a bit of humiliation. I ended the conversation. As you said, we are all
different. #
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): *blinks a few
times*
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): He was talking to
you and negotiating ... then suddenly went to some other girl and started
having sex with her...because he *thought you would like it?*
[15:57] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): nods.
"Shocking, right!?!"
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): pulls
out my iPhone and says "Siri, what's the clinical definition of
insanity?"
[15:57] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): shocking is the
right word
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Disgusting is
what that is
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's not
sadism, that's stupidity
[15:58] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): giggles
and nods. "And he couldn't figure out why I got mad and ended the
conversation."
[15:59] Tom (Zirsnveblis Resident): That's pretty wild
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If someone did
that to me in First Life they'd get to see what women of Sicilian descent are
like when mad...
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Callie I am sorry
that happened to you
[15:59] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): Thank you,
Vanni.
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But at least it
happened early rather than when you were alone with him and he decided to pull
only God knows what
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Your comments are
on mark...love the RHCP reference too! ;)
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you!
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Em
please!
[16:01] Em (Em Belfire): I am a masochist. I enjoy the mental headspace that pain puts
me in. I become ultra submissive and
completely focused on service.
Everything else is blocked out. I
am then also extremely vulnerable. These
are my most peaceful and fulfilling experiences. Whips, floggers, electrical play, paddles,
rope, knife play anything that can leave physical marks works#
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): looks a
little dreamy
[16:01] Em (Em Belfire): smiles
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Absolutely...as
the sub/bottom gets closer to subspace, that dreamy feeling, they are also very
very vulnerable and may be incapable of doing more than just floating in a sea
of neurotransmitters
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Which is why at
such a time the sub/bottom needs a safe, ethical top or Dominant there to keep
them safe, guide them down, and administer proper aftercare
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not a dipstick
who thinks the sub/bottom is part of a buffet line...
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Em and
I am glad you revel in your masochistic tendencies! ♥
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (by the way...it
may be that someone here isn't masochistic or appreciates it..it's fine to say
"I don't get it, I prefer X,Y and Z"...respectful differences are
always appreciated!)
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks so much
Em!
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Sarah,
please!
[16:07] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): C: I so enjoy the
headpiece of pain and humiliation like Em. For me, submission is also being pleasing and
creative in SL--I love, love when a dom becomes happy in RP and RL Also I will dom a little to make a partner
happy....."My heart can shatter at your wish
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right! The Top/Dominant and bottom/submissive feed
each other
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it does take two
to tango, after all
[16:09] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): nods a
lot
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and a scene, like
lovemaking, should make every happy and feeling good!
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Bad sex is bad,
bad S/M is even worse!
[16:10] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): OMG I had not
though of that : "Bad sex is bad, bad S/M is even worse"
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I subscribe to
the "Catchphrase of the Week" club
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ;)
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Sarah!
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kahlan, you are
up please!
[16:11] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Mmm Bad S/M wouldn't
that be ironically Masochistic?
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): more like a
disorder, Sir... ;)
[16:11] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): This feels a
little scattered as i tried to get it out and explain, so sorry if it feels
disjointed:
[16:12] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): I'm starting
to think of myself as a masochist adjacent so to speak. I'm not a fan of the
traditional play as some might think with pain or humiliation when it turns
heavy. But I've begun thinking of myself as an emotional type of masochist. In
that while i don't necessarily derive pleasure from it, I find myself taking on
more and more both emotionally and mentally from others (my empath working
overtime to take on others' pain where I struggle to find a solution and let
them rest or taking small tasks that pile up to stress me out.)
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So you look to
help others or take on tasks until it all seems overwhelming if I understand,
Kahlan?
[16:14] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): in a sense.
but its like trouble, i don't look for itbu tit finds me
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "The
universe is a cold, hostile taskmaster" -- some philosopher somewhere
[16:15] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): but even it
its just talking something out, i now have their worries to add to mine and
help to fix them. if taking one thing off their plate helps them, i take it to
give them space to function
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well....there is
nothing wrong with that as long as you maintain some balance...and that
"balance" to you might seem less than "balanced" to others.
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But it also
sounds like minus that, you panic. So
you definitely have a drive and it might be masochistic in nature....but also
look to balance yourself.
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Crashing out
doesn't help you or anyone after all *hugs*
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And you have a
good person to help you sort that out *points at Sir Johan with a grin*
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead Ashley
[16:18] Ashley Lysette (Ashley Sleaford): Sis, I do the same
thing. Trying to take things off others
plate to give them room to breathe. I
just tend to overwhelm myself though and fight to work through the pile of
stuff I picked up#
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You must be the
Chosen One to find balance in the Force.
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (sorry had to say
it today of all days!)
[16:19] Ashley Lysette (Ashley Sleaford): ღ ŁØŁ ღ
[16:19] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): siiiiiiigh, I
don't even get a cool lightsaber.... or a yoda companion1
[16:19] Ashley Lysette (Ashley Sleaford): Not even close,
Vanni
[16:20] Kahlan ღ Dark (wobbles08 Resident): But yes, my
family helps to make sure i find that balance when i get close to my tipping
point. lord bless them for taking my crazy,
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I will just say
this: Masochism in a BDSM sense is about
sharing kinks, not becoming overwhelmed with things and feeling like the river
is pulling you away. So please, if anyone in the room feels like that, speak to
people who are near and dear to you, people in our community or even a
professional. I had a few years of
therapy to get over issues with my mother, and it was the best decision I ever
made for myself. There is NO weakness in
looking for help (love you all! rant over)
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank you for
sharing a personal thing Kahlan, and thanks Ashley for your comment as well.
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Rune, you are up
please!
[16:24] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): My comment might be a
little "late" but I'm slow to formulate thoughts so I apologize. As a
masochist, its been pointed out that an ethical top is important especially
when the sub hits subspace. Masochism can be a dangerous thing and requires
careful planning and negotiation. Injuries from bruising can cause Rhabdo and
kidney problems... or even failure and that is scary stuff (especially for
someone like me who already has kidney disease). And the sub is sometimes not in
the head space to say "stop" because they are floating and don't
realize things have gone too far and injury is happening. On the upside: when
you have an ethical top who can really do a good job at catching that and who
understands what the sub needs for aftercare afterwards, the experiences can be
amazing.
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yyyyessssss!
[16:24] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in
complete agreement.
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Everything you
said is 100% spot on, Rune
[16:26] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): so well said Rune
*she peeks at Rune's paper for the test*
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): at my RL club we
have "Welcome Wagon" BDSM 101 mini demos for people who are new to
the scene and show on a very willing bottom how and where to spank...where
NEVER to hit (kidney area is NEVER to be hit) and how to work first up and then
down and what to look for. All that is
critical for both the sadist and the masochist to have a great scene.
[16:27] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): nod nods
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And you're spot
on Rune...the bottom as the masochist is feeling great in a good scene and will
often just moan and groan .. so the Top has to look and watch carefully.
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said!
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): OK I have a
question for the group...anyone can answer when I post it, do NOT say
"C"...just type your answer if you wish
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As the
masochistic sub or the Sadistic Top, you find a great person here, you click
personality wise...BUT they do not share your tendencies about sadistic
domination....they don't wanna do what Y/you do. Do you politely rebuff them,
or do Y/you find common things to do and don't do the S/M play? Does SL allow
us to find "others"...this is a common thing that happens in
lifestyle sims like Xaara...how do we handle these circumstances in a positive
way (not by going to have sex with someone else in the room!) ;)
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Feel free to
answer after thinking, no C please.
[16:32] Em (Em Belfire): i would enjoy doing things with the
Top but would not accept a collar.
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods
[16:33] Aura Lily (Aura Lily): we practice and experience a
form of Mental BDSM here in SL
[16:33] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): This is the
exact situation with myself and My Master. He is not a Sadist and doesn't want
to 'hurt' me the way I want sometimes, so he has allowed me to search for a
service top to help fulfill those desires.
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods at Callie
[16:34] Tom (Zirsnveblis Resident): I think you can find
other areas of overlapping kink usually, has to be fun for both. Being poly helps in that regard as you can
use other play partners to meet the other needs.
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Poly works as
long as everyone WANTS that. Poly
doesn't work when someone grudgingly says "OK"...I've seen that
destroy relationships, sadly.
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): But what Callie
is saying she and her Master are doing is the correct way to do that.
[16:37] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): huge
blonde hair flip..she types "C": I try to be friendly. to A/all. I
keep people as friends--such as for my dance group show invitations--but I
don't push for RP. it it is not satisfying.
[16:38] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): if it is not
satisfying*
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Pushing a person
to try a S/M scene they don't want is a total recipe for failure.
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): on either side of
the D/s slash
[16:38] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): nods in
agreement with Vanni.
[16:38] RB (RBQuinn Resident): nods to
Vanni's wisdom, even as his eyes are barely open yet
[16:38] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): nods
nods
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Because at best
it won't be satisfying...at worst that person gets really upset and you never
speak again
[16:39] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): I adore My
Master because of how he is, and I wouldn't want to change him in any way.
Asking him to do some of the things I want and need I know would change him and
not in a good or constructive way.
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And we can't look
at others here like some kind of "NPCs" in a video game that hand out
what we want on demand (not saying anyone in this room would do that or think
of it). Sadly some in SL do think others
are "kink dispensers"
[16:42] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): yes I agree
Callie--a partner should not try and force changes--*hides her "topping
from the bottom" T-shirt*
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So like anything
else, it's give and take. If we can find
80% of what thrills us in a person, we can either say "I can live without
the other 20%" or maybe as Callie and her Master do, agree to let a
service person handle the other 20%.
[16:43] Callie Saint (CallieRaziel Resident): smiles
and nods.
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Y'all are so
wise...this is why I brought back our Sunday discussion! ♥
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank Y/you for
the comments.
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Any final
comments on our discussion of Masochism?
[16:43] Tom (Zirsnveblis Resident): Thank you for leading
the discussion Vanessa
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): It is my pleasure
Sir and how I serve our community.
[16:44] Sarah Luxembourg (Sara Vermilion): thanks so much
Vanni ;)
[16:44] Rune (FatedPickle Resident): Thank you, Vanni :)
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please remember
Xaara in your giving plans, tip jar on the bar there.
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In two weeks we
will discuss a particular form of S/M play...humiliation!
No comments:
Post a Comment