[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract either your C or your Q. If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @ [name]"
[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in the order received; however, we generally will promote questions directed at a person's comment to the top. The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply, replies to the question will be open. Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy! Thank you! ♥
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for this Klatch can be found here: https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/ It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of the way, we'll begin.
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As usual, I have a short bit of exposition
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If any comments or questions come up as I yammer, just put in your C or Q
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Today's topic is based on one we hear a lot in SL: "The best Dominants are the ones that were submissives before."
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think I lost count using my hair how many times I've heard that concept.
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The theory goes that a Dominant who experienced time as a collared sub "gets" the submissive role much better. The idea that "experience is the best teacher" is the expressed concept.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Less commonly but at times, we also hear that a sub is in a better position if they spent time first as a Dominant, as they will understand the role of the Dom/me better, and know how both sides work equally (in theory).
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Others will counter that as the roles of Dominant and Submissive flow from something within, none of that is really necessary. It is good to understand the other side, but it doesn't make one "better" in that regard.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Of course, there is no "right" or "wrong" here...this is opinion
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, to make one thing clear: I'm not talking about "switches" here, people that flow back and forth between roles. I'd like to know if having prior experience on the other side of the collar makes a person more adept at handling their role as a sub or a Dominant.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So, what are the thoughts of the August Assembly? Does "prior experience" on the other side of the collar help, or is that not really necessary to be a fabulous Dominant or sub?
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Mull on it a few then toss out the C or Q!]
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hey that rhymed!
[15:45] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): I would say it's pretty obviously true. You can't truly get into the experience you give someone as a dominant unless you have experienced submission. How necessary that experience IS, though, is not as obvious.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There is a philosophical idea that only experience allows us to truly understand things.
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but what if a person isn't submissive at all? Will that affect their ability to be a Dom/me if they need that experience to "grok" it, as Heinlein might put it?
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I said, I don't think there is one answer. And as you pointed out, how necessary the experience is, is not as obvious.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll see what others think!
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Let's go to Wynter
[15:54] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Experience can count for a lot. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another. That's not to say that someone who has never submitted can't be empathetic to a submissive, nor that someone who's only Dominated others is incapable of expert intuition. I imagine some do experiment, while finding their stride and I do think it could be beneficial. There are pitfalls though, and one of them is thinking that the style of submission you experienced is what will be desired by another you Dominate. (more)
[15:54] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): While this discussion isn't about switches, I will add that I believe they have a very unique perspective into this from a standpoint of constant experience of the shifting of roles. As an aside, I do appreciate the knowledge my switchy nature affords me. My submissive constantly states that I'm all knowing.. it's more that my ability to read them and know what they are going through as a submissive is informing what I do next.. well, that and neurodivergent pattern recognition but that could be a discussion all it's own.#
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ooo several good points!
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The thing I've often kicked around in my head goes like this: is D/s really a binary? Meaning one is "either" a Dominant OR a submissive? Many people in SL think so (which is why switches often get short shift as a switch)
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): (yes that last bit was intentional... ;) )
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I reject as a sociologist that anything about human beings is binary
[15:57] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): nods in agreement with Vanni.
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and tend to see it as a continuum of being which can morph over time.
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And if so, does more experience in the continuum mean better understanding of it?
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I dunno
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's what we are here to kick around!
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wynter, I am glad you found what works for you!
[15:58] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): ♥
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and thank you for your contribution...and you as well Sousi, thank you!
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok let's go back to Jesseca
[15:59] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): promises is trying to be quiet... but sometimes cannot help myself... but would ad also if people are trying to find themselves they may try both sides of slash until they find one they identify with.
[15:59] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): I would say in my opinion yes the experience can be beneficial but it can easily be the opposite depending on the person's experience while it may provide insight it might also turn them off to the lifestyle if they have a truly awful time.
[15:59] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): done
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sure, that's completely valid
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Human experience is varied and it's good to experience as much as possible in the 80 more or less years we get
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also SL allows a lot more of that experimentation
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which is a good thing too
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think you're right that some people might be interested in BDSM on a mental basis (maybe see it in a movie or read it in a book) and then when they experience it...they find it's not their cup of tea
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I know that a LOT of people came to my RL club after the "50 Shades" movies came out....and they didn't get BDSM at all...and many were not willing to learn)
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "no, just because you came in the club in a vinyl dress and a $10 crop you don't get to do a scene until we're sure you're not gonna kill someone.."
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but that's really a different story ;)
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Jesseca!
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sousi, back to you please
[16:05] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): I consider D/s a spectrum. Both from my own perspective as a switch, and from long experience in BDSM. We are, both dominants and submissives, people who find power exciting. So yes, we prefer different roles, but we share more than divide us. Where we end up on the spectrum depends on other parts of our personalities. For myself, I find it hangs on whether I can feel confidence or not. Of course, that's my perspective. The divide isn't between dom and sub, not really. It's between us all and vanilla people.
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's a really good point, Sousi!
[16:06] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): No surprise the 50SoG tourists didn't fit in, is it?
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The power exchange requires two (or more) people who are confident in that role
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ha ha...*some* got the idea and a few are still around
[16:06] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): Yeah. Lots of people out there like power, and don't all know it.
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but most were just "wow, this is cool! I can hit someone with this thing!"
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think, though, that how we experience BDSM and D/s is really personal. I can't quantify it, nor can I say that anyone else's experience is "good" or "bad" unless it's obviously abusive.
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm glad Xaara is pretty much above the "ur doin' it wrng" kind of thinking
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Sousi, thank you again!
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Wynter back to you please!
[16:11] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): To bolster what Sousi mentioned about D/s being a spectrum. There are often times that powerful executives come home and surrender control. On the other hand, there are people who may be soft spoken with a heart for service in their day to day where they come home and revel at having their submissive at their feet. Another thing, although unrelated to the main idea of this discussion, is that there are folks who just like BDSM without D/s, but feel that they must incorporate it because they see others doing so. I was a masochistic bottom for years without wearing a collar in RL. So the B, D, and SM can be divorced from the D/s if someone desires and both parties agree. To tie that back into the discussion, perhaps in one's exploration they might not feel either role and thus may just be a top or bottom.#
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): As I've said many times, in First Life clubs (in my experience) the majority of people that go to a play party are Tops and Bottoms, not into D/s
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go, get our freak on, and then go home
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Maybe 10-15% are actually in a D/s relationship or looking for it
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Whereas here in SL, D/s is the gold standard (people want a Dominant or a sub) and the play is part of that...of course that's generalized...a good number want just play
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and...it's not uncommon for people to go to a play party...Top in one scene...and Bottom in the next
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Not that I've ever done that...oh no...*cough*
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So I think that in First Life people do play on the spectrum until maybe at some point they find their comfy point
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which leads back to what you just said, Wynter
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent comment! Thank you!
[16:16] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Welcome :)
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We will go to the head of the Dark family! Johan please!
[16:16] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think the concept of "You have to be a Sub, before you can be a Dominant" is a very old concept going back reportedly to the Old Guard Leather Community. Though other members in the Leather Community have also come out and said that its not a Universal Concept, but maybe some of the Old Guard houses that used it as part of their protocols.
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You are spot on, Johan, the Old Guard leather houses do require *everyone* to start as a slave and work up to Master (which is a title that's not gender-restrictive)
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm not familiar enough with the current leather scene, though, to know if that's still a strict requirement in First Life
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but perhaps some of the idea "the best Dominant was once a sub" comes from their practices
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): One other thing you said...you have no desire to be a submissive....so I don't think that such a requirement that "one has to be a sub to be a better Dom" would do anything positive for you Johan...except maybe solidify your own Dominant personality :)
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Now, people that experiment, or willingly slide into that role...sure
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but like with kids...you tell a kid "do this" the first thing they'll say is "NO I DON'T WANT TO" and then it's a wrestling match to get them to do it and they hate you for it lol
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks Johan!!
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Jesseca with a question
[16:26] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): Though I identify as being a submissive , I would also say I am not actively looking does that invalidate what I identify with because I do not have Dominant or I am not actively looking?
[16:26] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Not at all.
[16:26] Jesseca Littlepaws (Jesseca Littlepaws): thanks
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): anyone can answer, no Cs please
[16:26] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): There are plenty of solo submissives, it's why we have a Personal Protocols elective class :)
[16:27] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): Dominant and submissive are not dependent on a relationship. =)
[16:27] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): No, it does not invalidate you at all.
[16:27] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): that does Not in no way invalidate you :) there are plenty of ways to fullfill your submissive nature without one :) even here on the sim with assisting/serving the community
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I don't like the term "invalidate"...it sounds like we are turning a person into an "invalid" which is something we would NOT call anyone]
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's not pointed at you, Jesseca
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm commenting on the term itself
[16:28] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): just means you have an independant spirit
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree with everything said
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Dominant" and "submissive" are characteristics of personality
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and as Sousi said, has nothing to do with current connections
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Being "a Dominant to a person" or a "submissive to a person" is a relationship and different from being Dominant or submissive by personality
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and goddess help us switches *giggles*
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "When I think about me I Domme myself"
[16:31] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): laughs.
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but you are you and a valued person, Jesseca.
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Nothing "invalidates" us
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ever
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): unless it's abuse/crime maybe
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for the question and the responses!
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Back to you Wynter!
[16:32] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): A cheeky aside to what you said earlier Vanni, about one saying "No I don't want to!".. so long as it's not the revocation of consent, that's why there are brat tamers and those who enjoy conquest styles of Dominance!#
[16:32] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Or conquering* more accurately.
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha ha!
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes well, the Brat is a specific kind of sub-type ;)
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which requires a specific kind of Dominant
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and they have a consensual relationship that deals with it.
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Hmmm...
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Do the best "brat tamers" then need to be prior "brats" themselves?
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's a question anyone can answer minus a C ;)
[16:34] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I mean, I have heard folks say that Dominants are the brattiest of brats.. so that may follow in logic.
[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I wouldn't necessarily say 'prior' as one can definitely a currently Bratty dominant and tamer ;)
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ha!!
[16:35] Pilar Raynier (Pilar Raynier): snickers
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Oh, you both said the same thing! You're joined at the corpus callosum!
[16:35] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): laughs.
[16:35] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm definitely in good company with Wynter :)
[16:36] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Assimilation is inevitable, resistance is futile. *Nods Sagely*
[16:36] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Or if you're the Kinky Dyslexic Borg, Resistance is futile, your ass will be laminated
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "We are the Canadian Borg. Please prepare for your assimilation. Would you like a drink while waiting? To be assimilated in French, press 2"
[16:36] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): dies.
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): winks at Sylvie
[16:37] Pure Sylvie Delvalle (Pureperle Anton): lol
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ♥s Canada
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Each person assimilated gets you a punch in your card...when you assimilate ten people, you get a free donut and coffee at Tim Horton's
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Dude I'd go for that...
[16:38] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): sighs, "Only a donut, I want timbits!"
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): You and your pals were assimilated the other day...
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): LOL!
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Ok we are drifting...
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks Wynter!
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go back to Sousi for the last comment of the day
[16:39] Sousi (Sousinne Ceriano): Let's approach this from another angle: What situations that do not work well would be better if the dominant had experience as a submissive? I've seen a number of such situations, where the dominant is not open enough to what the submissive is showing. Where they can't read what the submissive needs in that moment. Letting uncertainty fester. Certainly, it's not always the case that it would have made a difference, but I think we've all seen it happen. Consequentially, then, a dominant who can do these things from the start wouldn't need submissive experience. I.e. one who has enough empathy to function well in their role.
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and communication
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Any relationship will falter if the people involved can't talk
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So a Dominant that says "you negotiated once, now obey" and never wants feedback is not getting what they need...unless the whole "consensual non-consent for good" was negotiated I guess
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but as a sociologist, I have issues with that kind of thing...for me
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If anyone has a comment on what Sousi said feel free to give it
[16:43] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I think though that would still be dependent on the personalities of those involved. Just because the Dominant HAS prior submissive experience doesn't mean they'd be any more open to what the submissive was trying to convey. It could be a "Oh I've been through this, its not that bad" or "Yes, I know it sucks - but I promise you its for your own good, trust me." Those type of things would be personality and situational events regardless of experience in each role.
[16:43] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): I think another thing to be considered is that if someone isn't a good read on another, that their ability to do so won't be enhanced by experiencing submission. I've met plenty of submissives who had no situational awareness, and even dominants and switches. I think that's exclusive of role.
[16:43] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Damn, Johan with the hive mind again.
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Agreed with both!
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You both get Timbits!
[16:43] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): We need a podcast lol
[16:43] Wɣŋtɛr Sɛrɛŋaɖɛ (Wynter Serenade): Hahaha
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but Sousi you're right..a person with empathy and listens doesn't need a background as a sub.
[16:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and to whatever level it helps is really "additional" to the practice of listening and correcting the course
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks, Sousi!
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We'll call it a wrap. Thank you all for your contributions! Enjoy the rest of the Xaara Festival!
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