[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Our
discussions are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type
"C" if you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a
question, usually directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you
wish to retract either your C or your Q.
If a person has a question for a specific person on what they said, just
say "Q @ [name]"
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend
to go in the order received, however, we generally will promote questions
directed at a person's comment to the top.
The handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the
order.
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If a
person asks a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C"
to reply, replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Please
keep further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets
noisy! Thank you! ♥
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): The
archive for this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): With that
out of the way, we'll begin.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I have
some starting exposition as usual
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so as I
yap for a bit feel free to put in a C or a Q to the queue and then when I'm
done we'll go down said queue
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Today we
finish our probe..heh heh...she said probe...of the BDSM acronym and D/s in
particular.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Starting
in two weeks we will get to more general topics on BDSM and D/s.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Today is
a discussion on the difference between a sub and a slave.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Along
with the Brat, which was our topic two weeks ago, this is one of the more
divisive topics one will find in reference to BDSM and D/s.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If you
get on a BDSM forum, website or just talk to the kinky folks live, you'll get
twenty different opinions from twenty different people on what it means to be a
"sub" or a "slave" and whatever is between them.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So there
is obviously no "right answer" here.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): What it
means to be a sub, or a slave, or whatever we are, is a deeply personal thing
for each of us.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But it's
always good to get opinions and ideas about things. It's how we learn.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): As far as
"sub vs slave", I'm sure we all agree there is some differentiation
between the two. What is it?
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it
some kind of quantifiable difference? "I'm a 3 on the slavery index while
you're a 9?"
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Pushes
the Sociologist in me back in the box..."Bad index!"
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it
purely qualitative...if a person *feels* they are a slave or a sub, they are?
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Is it
something that requires people outside to look at a person and say "you
are a sub/slave/whatever?"
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And...one
final thought...what is it that attracts Dominants to a certain kind of
person...sub to slave? What are the expectations?
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I will
not give my opinion on this now, I want to hear the ideas of the August
Assembly.
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And of
course we will all respect the differences we might have, we are just kicking
the can around. :)
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok elara,
you are up first when ready!
[15:49] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): I have served in both
capacities, some time ago as a gorean slave, but the most recent being that of
a slave in a 24/7 dynamic both 2L and carrying over into my real life. I can only speak from my experiences, which
may not fit the ‘definition’ of what a “slave” is and when I do it is in
reference to my most recent experience.
I think it’s important to mention that the ‘conditions’ of my slavery
were only truly set in place when my Master and I had a close enough relationship
that I could put the amount of trust into His hands that I did. So when I say that I had no limits, and I had
no choices, it was with the trust that He would breach no former limit of mine
or make a choice for me that was going to intentionally harm me physically,
psychologically or harm O/our relationship. In short, He had been a Master the
majority of His life, knew what He was doing in terms of what it takes to be
responsible, even if His slave lived on the other side of the world. It felt “free” to not have to make choices
(realistically the important ones. I wasn’t going to be texting Him all day
about what flavor of ice cream to get), and quite frankly arousing to hand over
myself entirely to One who had only my best interests in mind, knowing that
only when I was healthy and happy, could I truly serve Him and meet His needs.
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):
Excellent!
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I find
interesting that you saw it as he made the essential decisions for what you did
together and how to serve him, while at the same time you weren't expecting him
to tell you what ice cream to get or what lipstick to wear on Tuesday
afternoon.
[15:51] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): (by the
way it's Neapolitan and Berry Red from Revlon...we'll talk later) :P
[15:52] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ♫
rimshot ♫
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank
you!
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Try the
fish!
[15:52] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): Lol
[15:52] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's
really good elara, and now as you
explore Xaara as a submissive I'd take it the power exchange is more "what
you are willing to give" for now?
[15:53] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): Yes, Miss Vanni. I"ve had to reacclimate myself into
realizing my limits all over again, among other things
[15:54] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): Just to me it is a
question of permanence and depth of commitment. I have play sessions with Subs
and consideration collars perhaps, a slave to me is one that has a permanent
collar and deep commitment to longevity and depth of trust but it is I agree a
simplification.
[15:54] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): sorry accidentally hit
send
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks
Elara, and I'm glad you're happy here
and can explore!
[15:54] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok now we
come to Cee ;)
[15:54] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): Just to me it is a
question of permanence and depth of commitment. I have play sessions with Subs
and consideration collars perhaps, a slave to me is one that has a permanent
collar and deep commitment to longevity and depth of trust but it is I agree a
simplification.
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's
understandable Cee.
[15:55] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am a slave on the other
side of the slash #
[15:55] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Q For Cee
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So you
would expect a submissive that took your collar to be a slave to you? I'm just asking for clarification.
[15:56] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): not at all
[15:56] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): First we would have to
compare definitions and wants and needs #
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): nods
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Makes
sense, Nawa you had a question for Cee?
go ahead
[15:58] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Yes, I would assume
the level of commitment and depth of trust is gained with time?
[15:58] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes
[15:58] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): So you would not be
having a slave first you would have a submisive who will in time grow to a
slave?
[15:59] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I guess I would also say
to me a sub MAY be collared or not a slave is always collared
[15:59] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes Nawa
[15:59] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Thank you! #´
[15:59] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks
Cee! Great comments so far!
[16:00] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Kendra we
come to you please!
[16:00] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): I looked up a definition,
and I got "A slave is a person who is legally owned as property by
another, deprived of personal freedom, and forced to provide unpaid labor or
services under the threat of violence or coercion." Thinking of my personal situation, that
pretty much matches.... I've been sold a few times without my consent, don't
have any choices (but my owners have granted me privileges) and I'm forced to
work for free.
[16:01] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): I would say that's in
addition to being a sub. #
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): gets some mops and brooms ready then...
[16:01] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): So.. in other words, a
sub can chose their master, a slave cannot?
As a distinction between the two
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It should
be understood, of course, that no one can be a *legal* slave -- slavery is
forbidden in any nation, understanding that illegal human traifficking and
slavery still goes on.
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): So
slavery is something more...social.
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexis,
sometimes a slave is sold to another...but...that would have to be in Kendra's
limits too.
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): If I in
theory "owned" her I couldn't simply sell her minus her having some
form of consent, and she would have to trust me i would not sell her to a freak
that would harm her.
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so that
level of trust is super-high.
[16:04] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): C at Kendra
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): quick the
queue is large, go Nawa
[16:05] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Its just regarding the
consent part, if you have given your freedom freely without initial coercion
than wouldnt you say you have given consent?
[16:05] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Okay, I get it. Kendra
said 'Sold without my consent', but that doesn't necessarily mean 'against my
limits'
[16:06] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): Yes, it was a path I
wanted to go down, and I like it.
[16:06] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): c
[16:06] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): CNS, but still
consensual
[16:06] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): Thank you!
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): CNC yes
:)
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Kendra
thanks! Great comment!
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Hestia to
you please
[16:07] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): i Can only qualify
the difference based on my Gorean experience. ALL submissives ..persae....were
SLAVES, there were/was no other option. As a Slave...you were not seen as a
person, but as livestock. To which they could do ANYTHING they wanted to, and
you had absolutely NO right to say NO. to do so could...and sometimes did lead
to you being killed or maimed in some fashion. It did not matter if you were a
kennel slave, or privately owned. ALL the above applied....Which included being
sold or rented to anyone.....regardless of how you might feel about them.
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good
point
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and to
some Gorean "slavery" is indeed the "gold standard"
[16:08] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Grins at Mistress.
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): But I
also think that 'round these here parts our idea of a "slave" might
be considerably softer
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): And of
course in SL no one has to put up with something they find intolerable. Worst case the little "x" at the
top is the final "safeword."
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): all very
well said, thank you Hestia!
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan we
come to you please!
[16:10] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): To me, the
difference is the degree of control. A
sub is more of a partner with rules, subordinate, but still a partner. A slave is a sub who desires to give up
control, whether to a dgree or totally.
My current two have a desire to give up total control. Thus they are restricted to certain places
and have rules in terms of dress, activities, and even have "chores"
to do. I still abode by their limits and they do have a say if they wish to end
the arrangement, but it is fulfilling a need of theirs to give up control to go
"deep" as my one says.... so
to me, it is the degree of control and can dovetail with a TPE relationship
quite well.
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right,
well said
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee hold
on please
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cyan when
we look at power exchange, I agree it's not "either/or" whatever our
Gorean friends might think
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): "You
are free or slave, nothing in between "
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): or
"you are sub or slave, nothing in between" in non-Gor
[16:12] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Power
exchange is a spectrum
[16:13] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): nods
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): and only
the sub/slave and the Dominant can really define it for themselves and between
themselves, so I agree myself with what you said
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks
Cyan, good comment!
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): :)
[16:14] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne we
come to you please
[16:14] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I've been asked to
take both slaves and subs under command. In every case, the slaves desired to
have minimal autonomy about aspects of the M/s relationship. To the greatest
extent possible they sought to cede their ability to revoke consent (within a
SSC environment). So they invested that trust either from the ouutset or over
time in each case. In general subs have more areas of their live to which they
do not grant access. For me, consent still must be explicit at some
point.Whether it is a well-considered step to renounce control needs to be
worked through on a case by case basis. Gorean is a different case as it is an
alien world with its own values and norms. Goreans cannot judge Earthe norms
and vice versa. We speak different languages in these matters.
[16:15] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): right,
people doing Gorean RP are in a totally different "universe"....very
poorly written books but still "different" :P
[16:15] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): nods
[16:16] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): almost incalculable
differences
[16:16] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu): nods "very different"
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Y'all do
know there are RL "goreans"...they try to live their lives according
to Norman's philosophy
[16:16] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): nods
[16:16] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): nods
[16:16] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu): nods "remembering Sol"
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I was
looking at one of their message boards years ago -- the Masters were chatting
about if their kajira women (wives/girlfriends) should vote or not
[16:17] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): it is different
when there are no other alternatives and where earth girls were kidnapped and
sold into Gor as uneducated slaves to who everything just 'happened'
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Most
thought no
[16:17] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Yes i know a couple
RL..and they SAY the live Gorean...but they really do not
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): One said
"how about we fill out their ballots for them" and they all *loved*
that idea
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): so right,
how the gorean folks go is their biz and more power to them!
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I'll stay
on earth and decide what outfit to wear tyvm
[16:18] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): it is a slave dimension
that muddies the water for a lot of folk
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks
Shayne!
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Lexis we
come to you please!
[16:18] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): So, I think my
philosophy on sub/slave is the difference is somatic, they are both 'fantasies'
that we want to experience as 'real' as we can accept. The difference then is
in degree and depth of what limits are set. So it comes down to the
connotations those labels have... being labeled a 'slave' has a very different
feel to having a 'submissive' title. One suggests a far more powerful dynamic
than the other... even if there isn't any difference in real terms of how they
act or play. I am a 'sub'... who also loves being a 'slave' too... n#
[16:19] RB (RBQuinn Resident): ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ
Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ★ Aρρℓαυsє ﺴ✶ﺴ✶ﺴ
[16:19] elara (GiadaGalatea Resident): nods nods
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Really
it's a social construction of reality....what "slave" means to one
might be "sub" to another, or vice-versa
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): As long
as 1) limits are respected and 2) care is taken , what people wanna call
themselves is really their decision
[16:21] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Exactly, but -what- you
call each other matters... at least to yourselves
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Because
to Hestia's point, here at least, even in an M/s relationship that's healthy,
we understand limits are understood and followed, even if 99% of the rest of
the decision making is given to the Dom in the power exchange
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): of course
Lexis
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good
points!!
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thank
you!
[16:22] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Nawa we
come to you please
[16:22] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): I have never been in
RP for gor, I do not know what it must be like to be a slave without any
consent being given, but i have been a slave in D/s Dynamics, in rl and in time
i didn't need to have limits, they were of my Master´s knowledge from the
beginning and therefore no longer necessary to enter into discussion, i agree
with Miss Cyan, TPE is giving total control over to your Master, something that
submissives can and should also do to the extent they are comfortable with, the
only difference to me in being a slave is the commitment and the level of
control established from the growth of the dynamic, summing it up, i do not
believe in slavery from the get go, for me that type of dynamic takes time and
knowledge of each other. That’s my personal opinion, #
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I think
that's a very good point Nawa
[16:23] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): trust
builds, the need to "hold back" reduces, and the power exchange
increases
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): where
that ends is up to each person
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Very good
points, Nawa thank you!
[16:24] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): All these
comments are really solid!
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): OK Cee...go
ahead
[16:25] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I am a slave, I have not
given consent to be sold or mistreated on any way. I think the strict
definition of slave in the dictionary covers RL slaves throughout the world not
BDSM slaves who have limits
[16:26] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I AM a SLAVE, I have
limits, a collar, I select my own clothes (He says I have better taste). We do
shop together and he has my trust of 2 years before collar#
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Well
that's why slavery is illegal worldwide and we go after human trafficker scum
with vigor
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): in the
BDSM world even a "slave" certainly has rights, all human have
rights. so we respect basic human rights
and we want ethical dominants that care for their slave
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Believe
me I'd care very well for the slave doing all my housework! lol
[16:29] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): grins and nods
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):
"excellent floor-mopping slave, have cheesecake!"
[16:29] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yes
[16:29] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): and that would be
their payoff
[16:29] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Wait, cheescake?....
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): giggles
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee good
points, thank you!
[16:29] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): I might do that,
myself!
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Titan we
come to you please!
[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): Thank you Did I hear.... Cherry Cheesecake?
[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): I thank you all for allowing
me to be here with you today.. I don't
have much to say.. but offer up this
from my side of the dominant and my observance... a couple of quotes...from
Herman Hesse
[16:30] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): looks at Titan....
[16:30] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): Perks
up..."Food?"
[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): First.... "It is not our purpose to become each
other; it is to recognize each other, to learn to see the other and honor him
for what he is."
[16:30] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and I change that to
"him" or "her"
[16:31] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and.. second... this..
as well. "Some of us think holding on makes us strong; but
sometimes it is letting go."
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I agree
with that!
[16:31] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and final quote from Thomas
Edison... “I have not failed. I’ve just
found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” ― Thomas A. Edison
[16:32] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu): sniffs looking around... Cheesecake.... with
Strawberry's.... mmmmm
[16:32] Titan (Titan Hawksby): and with a comment on
that.. we fail miserably at times.. but we come up only muddied.. wash off. and stand tall..
[16:33] Titan (Titan Hawksby): thank you for allowing me to
comment and participate.. I settle back comfortably and a pleasure to meet you
all
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thank you
Titan!
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I love
Hesse's work, good quotes
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli):
Cheesecake is good, but lemon cake will turn me into a ...wait I can't let out
my secrets....
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): belay
that cake
[16:34] Jenine Kuu (Illana Kuu): giggles
[16:34] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): chuckles
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): excellent
thanks!
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): MansooR
we come to you please
[16:35] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): so slave/sub
is a spectrum........i still dont get what in abolute terms (not the dictionasy
meaning) is for a slave.....in other words.. who is a 100% slave?
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Do you
mean in the legal way of understanding it?
[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): no.. not
legal.. in the 'osicla aspect of bdsm'
[16:36] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): social
[16:36] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Well
there is no "100% agreed upon definition"
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): one
person's slave is another person's sub, and vice-versa
[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): great...:)
[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): nods..just
wanted that to be cleared
[16:37] MansooR RedChilli (mansoor50 Resident): thanks#
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Now on
Gor....well...there it's either/or *grins*
[16:38] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): does that mean we
don't really have the language we think we have?
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): It means
we construct terms based on our psychology and social meaning created via
discourse
[16:38] Nawa (moringward82 Resident): *nods in agreement
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): pulls out the powerpoint and prepares to go on
about "communicative action" :P
[16:39] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): to me that is part
of a negotiation when a power relationship is the goal
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): exactly!
[16:39] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Dynamics
change over time too, as Nawa pointed out
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): What
starts as "Dominant/sub" can become "M/s" or vice versa
[16:40] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): Its the difference
between literal and figurative... someone who says they are '100% slave' is
speaking figuratively... because they love the idea of being that..., it's
their fantasy. And I'm not going to piss on their chips... to use a vulgar
English colloquialism
[16:40] Hestia (sarynaGareth Resident): change?? NO my ducks
must be in a row!
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): humans
are dynamic creatures
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): lol lexis
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): thanks
MansooR!
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Cee back
to you
[16:40] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): Would you like the
FetLife definition of slave?
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): sure
[16:40] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): In BDSM, a slave is
usually person who gives up total control to someone who they are in an
agreed-upon dynamic and/or relationship with. The term slave is not gender
specific. You can use “female slave” or “male slave” to make a distinction
between genders.
[09:40] Cee (purringfox.mcmillan): In BDSM, a slave is
usually person who gives up total control to someone who they are in an
agreed-upon dynamic and/or relationship with. The term slave is not gender
specific. You can use “female slave” or “male slave” to make a distinction
between genders.
While all slaves are submissive, the term often implies a
deeper level of authority granted to the dominant partner, sometimes called a
Master.
In these dynamics, the slave may agree to give the Dominant
significant influence over aspects of their life, such as behavior, appearance,
routines, or other personal choices. But these arrangements are still based on
consensual agreements and negotiated boundaries.
The term is often used to signal a strong commitment to
service and authority within the dynamic, rather than a universally defined set
of rules. What “slave” means can vary widely between individuals and
relationships.
Slave is a self-chosen BDSM identity, not a level that
someone "graduates" to by submitting enough. Some people use it to
express ownership, devotion, service, or extensive power exchange. Others may
practice equally intense submission and strongly prefer never to use the word.
#
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): That's
all well said!
[16:42] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): I love their Kinksionary
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): I
appreciate the "consensual agreements and negotiated boundaries"
part, because even a self-described slave went into the thing consensually and
still has human boundaries
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): which is
what a trafficked "slave" does NOT have as all their consent and
human dignity has been ripped from them....grrrrr
[16:43] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): won't describe what she would like to see
happen to human traffickers.
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks
Cee!
[16:44] Cee (PurringFox McMillan): yvw
[16:44] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): bet it's not give 'em
cheescake
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Shayne
you get the last comment for today
[16:44] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): oh
yes...with rat poison mixed in!
[16:46] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): viewed from outside
their power relationship, it is important to remind ourselves that we are
outside it and really understand that it is what they chose for themselves. It
makes them happier and more appreciative of their power play.
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): Right
agreed!
[16:47] Cyan d'Azure (Cyan08 Resident): nods
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): it might
not be for us, but what makes people happy, as long as the C in SSC and RACK
(consent) is followed....it's all good!
[16:48] Lexis Evertied (Lexis Doll): ... you put that way
better than I did... and no chips were harmed
[16:48] Shayne Aridian (Shayne Aridian): whew
[16:48] Kendra (Kendra Chemistry): C standing for CNC in my
case :)
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): indeed!
[16:48] (Coffee
Discussion Tracker): Thank you for attending this discussion.
[16:48] (Coffee
Discussion Tracker): The tracker is now off and the floor is open to everyone.
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): ok great
discussion everyone!
[16:49] Vanessa Cannoli-Lysette (Vanessa Cannoli): In two
weeks our topic will be "Third Party Consent"
