[15:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good morning and welcome to Koffee Klatch!
[15:36] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Our discussions
are in text and are in the usual C/Q/R format, meaning type "C" if
you wish to make a comment, "Q" if you have a question, usually
directed at a person's comments, and "R" if you wish to retract
either your C or your Q. If a person has
a question for a specific person on what they said, just say "Q @
[name]"
[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We tend to go in
the order received, however, we generally will promote questions directed at a
person's comment to the top. The
handy-dandy giant coffee cup in the middle will keep track of the order.
[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If a person asks
a question of the group, there is no need to put in a "C" to reply,
replies to the question will be open.
Just answer, or we'll have a bunch of "Cs" at the bottom.
[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Please keep
further greetings and extraneous talk in IM...otherwise it gets noisy! Thank you! ♥
[15:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): The archive for
this Klatch can be found here:
https://xaarakoffeeklatch.blogspot.com/
It houses current and many older discussions.
[15:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): With that out of
the way, we'll begin.
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok I do have a
bit of exposition as usual
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so as thoughts
come up just drop a C or a Q in the queue and then we'll start with your
comments
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): This week is
Discipline, the second part of the B/D pair of BDSM
[15:39] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Discipline is the
act of some kind of punishment or correction of a person.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Parents instill
discipline in their kids via punishments of types for wrongdoing. And hopefully via positive reinforcement for
a job well done.
[15:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We have talked
about this a few times over the years, but in the interest of clarity and for
newer folks, we have two ways to look at this.
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): In the behavioral
sciences, we talk about reinforcement and punishment. We want to reinforce desired behaviors and
punish bad behaviors to keep them from happening.
[15:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Punishment is a
tool in a D/s relationship for the breaking of a rule that has been negotiated
between the Dominant and the submissive.
Any rule within the agreed upon limits of the relationship needs to be
obeyed, so a punishment is to stop a behavior that is not desired.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): [15:50] Vanessa
Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): If we really need to punish any person....wayward
child, naughty sub...then the punishment needs to have three characteristics:
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): First it must be
swift, done as close as possible in time to the infraction.
[15:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or it loses
connection from act to punishment.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Second it must be
certain, it WILL happen, or the punisher (not the comic book character) will
look weak in the eyes of the person and so not an authority figure.
[15:43] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And third, it
must be Rational, meaning the level of punishment is tied to the
infraction. Insane punishments for light
infractions just breed contempt. Light
punishments for serious infractions teach nothing.
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "You killed
AGAIN Miss Cannoli? That's another $100
fine for you!" I'd be droppin'
Franklins like candy!
[15:44] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Kidding of
course...mostly :P
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good Doms will
reinforce positive things in their charges, and use punishment sparingly but
WILL do it if/when necessary.
[15:45] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Reinforcement is
doing something the person likes or taking away something they don't like when
they do the desires behavior.
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Keep your
room clean and you get ice cream"
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Kneel when
I tell you and you get spanked" (well...that works for subs anyway lol)
[15:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "Do what I
tell you and we'll have your lazy sister do the mopping rather than you"
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): that's all
reinforcement
[15:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): What we not talk
about today is what we lovingly call "funishment"...that's the topic
in two weeks
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but the idea with
"funishment" is really more of a negotiated RP where the sub
"appears" to break a rule and then the BDSM scene starts....again,
that's the topic for next time
[15:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): today we'll stick
with behavior modification
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So the questions
for today are: Do you use (or have used
on you) some form of behavior modification?
Is punishment a real thing in SL?
How do we do it? Is reinforcement
better than punishment?
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Or anything
around the topic of behavior mod, what it is, and how we do it.
[15:49] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): ok that's my
exposition...what do you think?
[15:50] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Johan when you
are ready please!
[15:50] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): ( Will take a while
to type)
[15:54] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So, Punishment is
something I actually have a difficult time with. I'm a parent of a Teenager
(who actually is a damn good kid so I've not had to actually 'punish' him in 10
years.. Mostly its 'talking to' )
but I know in a D/s and BDSM perspective sometimes a
punishment is NEEDED for the submissives sake, to know that the Dominant DOES
in fact care. Its a odd balance between 'how do I punish - so its meaningful,
but not overbearing like you said, and also reinforce the good behaviors (that
I am great at.)
Thankfully I also have two great submissives, one slightly
bratty but only playfully so. We at
times have had to 'create' situations for 'funishment' because she also is a
masochist so she likes the pain of cropping/spanking/paddling, etc.
So I find if I am doing something for Punishment sake vs.
reinforcement sake, its along the lines of "You aren't allowed to do X
that I know you enjoy for until" or
what I haven't had to use yet "I want you to write me a NC as to WHY you
thought it isn't ok to do...." /
Done
[15:55] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): That's good!
[15:56] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and honestly that
is a form of punishment, as the person in question prob doesn't *like* having
to write such a card, Punishment is the
opposite of reinforcement, where something disliked is *added* to alter
behavior.
[15:56] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *looks back at
Master remembering his fiendish ways of punishment*
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): "I don't
want to write a card where I spell out my misbehavior and why. I won't do that again."
[15:57] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Also that's
rational punishment, Johan, as it ties the behavior closely to the issue.
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): So that was all
very well said! Thank you!
[15:58] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): we move to
Scarlet please
[16:00] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): For me, rewarding
my good behavior works better than punishing my bad behavior. As long as the
rules make sense to me and are clear, I do my best not to act out against them.
on the rare occasions I step out of line a quick chastisement is usually enough
for me to realize i messed up and correct my behavior. #
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Right!
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and in a good
relationship usually all that would be required is a "hey, I didn't like
that, let's talk about it."
[16:01] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): yes, exactly
[16:01] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Or an apltly timed
"Raises his eyebrow"
[16:01] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:02] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *hides a smile*
[16:02] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): my eyebrows work
well as they're so perfectly arched :P
[16:02] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): <3
[16:02] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): :-)
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): You have a good
heart Scarlet and I know that you'd never *knowingly* misbehave. So that's why just a chat is enough.
[16:03] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): nods
[16:03] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): IMO punishment
needs to be left for acts that keep repeating.
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said thanks
Scarlet!
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to Liss
with a question
[16:04] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): for both Dominants and
submissives - do you think it is better to have a formal set of agreed rules or
more general guidelines to behaviour?
[16:04] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead and
answer, do NOT add a C
[16:05] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): So..... yes :)
[16:05] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or we'll have an
ocean of Cs at the bottom
[16:05] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): general guideline
[16:05] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): @Liss Master and I have a
formal set of rules... it is our Negotiations document in Google that we refer
to and keep up to date. It includes my limits, rules and structures for me ect.
There is also a calendar on the fridge where I keep him up to date on what I am
doing. In addition to our linked google calendar so he doesn’t worry about me.
Granted, we are a RL couple so maybe this makes more sense for us.
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): wow amazing Rune!
[16:06] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I hope you got
that notarized :P
[16:06] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): haha!
[16:06] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): There should be both,
a formal set of agreed rules done during negotiations, but also there will be
things that come up that you don't consider but go "Ok, while that wasn't
against the rules, we BOTH know that throwing a pie in Chew's face is
disrespectful to both ME and Chew. Chew
because of whom he is and being an autonomous person who didn't consent to
having a pie thrown in his face, ME because you represent ME as your
Dominant." and yes, 100% with
Rune, have it written down.. Have it updated and regularly touch base with
during 'porch talks' .
[16:07] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hands
Johan a "Xaara Star" ;)
[16:07] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): I think a good mix
of the two works best. Specific rules for the really important things, and
general guidelines for things of lesser import. For instance, How to address
the Dominant when in certain situations would be a specific rule, while at home
things could be more relaxed
[16:07] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *Passes his star to
Scarlet as well*
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Well said Scarlet
[16:08] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): thank you
[16:08] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): D/s involves some
aspect of formality, it's not "vanilla"
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but I think each
D/s relationship is different and the people involved have to decide *how*
formal to make it
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Some people write
up whole contracts on what will be done, what's expected and for how long
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): others are just
"we'll make it up as we go along"
[16:09] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so it's up to you
and who you are with
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Good question,
Liss and good answers!
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): We go to
Benedetta please!
[16:10] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): with a question
[16:10] (Benedetta
en>en): thank you
[16:10] Benedetta (cordediseta Rosea): My question is for
everyone...what is our understanding of punishment? I am punished if I
accidentally make a mistake. How does the Dominant feel about punishing the
submissive? Does he feel metaphorically involved in this punishment, or does he
view it with detachment? What does punishing the submissive feel? Does he
metabolize the punishment he is inflicting in the same way as the submissive?
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): oooo lots of
thought there
[16:11] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): go ahead and
answer some or all of that as you will...again no Cs please
[16:12] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): for me, i think just
once punished mine sub, i felt
[16:13] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): involved, was really
angry with her, so it was not a distant thing
[16:13] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): sorry for mine bad
english
[16:13] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): no worries!
[16:13] (Benedetta
it>en): thanks for the reply
[16:14] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): I wear Master’s collar in
RL. Punishment is rare but usually means he will “take space” for a while so he
can think and isn’t angry because we have an agreement that he will never
punish out of anger. Physical punishment and even “funishment” is rare because
I have severe cervical stenosis and other back problems that limit what we can
do, but a chastisement makes me feel… awful anyway.
[16:14] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): verbal* chastisement
[16:14] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Great question
Benedetta, to quote my father
"This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" Though as a kid I never really understood
that. But, most caring Dominants don't WANT to punish a loving submissive. As a Sadist we may want to hurt them - but
only insofar as what they want to be hurt in return to meet both needs. But, that isn't for punishment sake,
thats for the S/M part of the BDSM acronym. I try to avoid 'feeling' it by making
sure when I DO have to punish someone, I'm not punishing them because I am
angry. I am punishing them to correct a
behavior or action so that it won't be repeated again. Now, would I punish for a mistake or
accident? No. I wouldn't.. A discussion
and talk is probably all that is necessary for that. Accidents are human.
[16:14] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I have rarely been
punished as a sub, I must behave worse, but would want my Dominant to feel
really involved. I am learning the other end of a leash which is why I am
interested in how Dominants do feel.
[16:16] (Benedetta
it>en): thanks everyone for the replies
[16:16] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I can tell you
that as I'm a switch, the most serious "punishment" I ever received
was from a Mistress who was upset with me over "playing" with a gag
(that green garbled speak in SL). She
IMed and said "I'm disappointed in this behavior. You know better."
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I apologized,
stopped that immediately and NEVER did it again. And felt like shit for a week.
[16:17] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Yes, the dreaded
"I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed" cuts like a knife
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and she had every
right to say that
[16:17] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): thats what hurts
me the most, knowing that ive disappointed the Dominant im with
[16:17] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods nods
[16:18] IronWolf (IronWolf Skydancer): whispers...great
chat being called away
[16:18] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): very painful
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): talk about
behavior mod!
[16:18] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): good question
Benedetta and good replies!
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): And now Valmont
has a question
[16:19] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): yes...this is mine first
encounter here in xaara, so i feel a little newbie..is mine impression or..
[16:19] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): everyone is
welcome to participate!
[16:20] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): all this discussion make
more sense toward a RL BDSM relationship more then one that remain here in SL ?
[16:20] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): or simply mine standard
are lighter ?^^ so to say
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): heh heh
[16:20] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): the First vs
Second Life "leap" is often a topic
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): especially with
behavior mod
[16:21] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so what do y'all
think? go ahead and give any answer you
like
[16:21] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): i mean, have
protocols..in a world where you can meet sometime and sometimes not...
[16:21] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): itsnt too restrictive ?
[16:21] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): stop ^^
[16:23] (Benedetta
it>en): I think and forgive the aragon it's like saying... do you love mum
or dad more?... I think we're talking about concepts and behaviors and not so
much about places... it's a lifestyle that clearly differs in SL compared to SL
but then not much... the mind can do much more than physical contact
[16:23] (Benedetta
en>en): #
[16:23] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): Master and I began in SL
and very much used SL for most if not all of our D/s and BDSM for a good 6
years prior to meeting. I think its very possible to use the mental aspects as
Benedette is saying for a fulfilling D/s relationship here.
[16:24] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Thats a good and fair
question Valmont :) So, are there
some things we can do in RL that aren't the same in SL? 100% BUT, we CAN still have some other
protocols agreed upon for WHEN we are in Cyberpsace/tech space, vs. Meat
Space. My girls and I have them. My girls greet me when they come on, we have
a specific way they greet me, we have specific names, hand signals, etc. The emotions, trust, and respect are all the
same even if the physicality is different.
In some aspects its actually EASIER in SL, because in RL it would be
difficult to be in a High protocol status 24/7,
but because we have independent and separate meat space lives for a good
part of each day/week/month, we can be in more high protocol situations while
in SL. #done
[16:24] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): BDSM is sl only for me
so it is the mental relationships. As a sub I like a framework of expectations
on me. It guides me in making choices ,even if the choice may be to misbehave,
it at least reminds me I am doing so and there are likely to be consequences. #
[16:25] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): ive only ever
experienced D/s in SL so I cant speak to the RL side of it. However, I think
the topic of behavior mod applies well to SL. It is harder for punishments to
really be effective in SL. Physical punishments dont work as well here as the
mental punishments and the degree of a mental punishment is harder to gauge
than the degree of a physical punishment
[16:25] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): #
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): wow great answers
y'all!
[16:25] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hands
out more Xaara Stars!
[16:26] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): There you go
Valmont! Plenty to think about!
[16:27] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): well probably the reason
is i never had a so high protocol situation till now
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I prefer to call
the meat world "first life" as this is all real. We are real people here not AIs (I
think...). Yeah we are all 25 and
perfect forever but we're real people at the end of the day
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): so I think there
is *lots* of mental and emotional crossover
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): there has to be
[16:27] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): or we're
automations
[16:27] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): so mine expectation
become lighter with time
[16:28] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): probably still not meet
someone that need this from me
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Excellent
question and answers!
[16:28] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): any other
comments or questions on this topic? we
still have some time
[16:28] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): I won't be punished by the
Master, and we're talking about modifying the actions of the Sub here, but is
it possible for the Master to modify their own actions?
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'd hope so!
[16:29] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): what do you all
think?
[16:29] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): obovously yes...if the
sub have some hard limits, the master is not permitted to cross them, also
if he would like too
[16:30] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): if he sees those limit
as too hard for him better rethink about the
relationship
[16:30] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): not sure if it was that
was requested with the last question
[16:30] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): I'd assume all
Dominants and submissives learn from experience so I think we all self modify
to a degree. Life should be about learning.#
[16:30] (Benedetta
it>en): a Master who does not recognize any changes is anchored to a pole
and his perspectives become like a cloud in a completely blue sky... that is,
he remains alone
[16:30] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): I believe that a Dominant
must be willing to own and modify their own actions when they make mistakes -
we're all human. We all make errors. And it sets a good example model for your
sub if you can live up to the expectations you set for her/him
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Yes to all of
that!
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): as a submissive,
I'd never be with a Dominant who thinks
they can never admit a wrong somewhere when they clearly are
[16:31] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): nods and smiles
[16:31] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): just like a sub
that can't admit a failure is a big problem
[16:31] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): I hope the
Master/Mistress will take time to have "porch talks" where things are
discussed. What punisments/rewards were most effective, the least effective.
What have you learned about yourself and your likes/dislikes in our D/s
relationship. After these discussions, id hope that the Master/Mistress would
take time to go over the answers presented and while staying within his/her
personality and own likes/dislikes make changes to things as necessary
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yes Scarlet!
[16:32] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): but some people
of any type can't admit they did wrong
[16:33] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): I've never heard of "porch
talks" before.
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and that's a
problem, whoeverr it is
[16:33] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): yes me too what does it
mean : porch talks ? may i ask ?
[16:33] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Certainly!
[16:33] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Porch Talk means
"speak as equals for a while and talk about things" rather than in
D/s protocol
[16:33] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): ok ty
[16:34] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): you beat me to it
Miss Vanni
[16:34] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): oh that's great！
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:34] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): here could it be
considered an OOC
[16:34] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): a prologued one
[16:34] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): I’ll suggest that to my next
time.
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it doesn't mean
they totally drop the D/s connection, but they openly speak about things
[16:34] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): prolongued* sorry
[16:34] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Its a good chance to
come together monthly/quarterly/annually to say "Hey, whats the state of
our union? Are you still happy with
everything? Is there anything we need to adjust/change? Do we need to alter our limits/negotiations?
"
[16:34] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bingo, Johan
[16:35] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and the sub
really needs to speak openly, not just "everything is fine
Master/Mistress"
[16:36] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): nods
[16:36] Liss (LissomePrey Resident): Besides specific 'how
is our D/s?' discussions my Master and I spend a lot of time talking and
sometimes arguing on all sorts of topics. So that protocol matters
[16:36] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): that is the key to
the porch talks, the sub must be open to and know that it is safe to politely
talk about their misgivings
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): which I think
both parties should do at *any* time, but having specific times as Johan said
to do a "State of the Union" is also very good
[16:37] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): well i say again, looks
to me the minimum requirement, or is no more a relationship
[16:37] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): I'm too blunt, so he often tells
me I should look for someone else....lol
[16:37] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I mean if my sub
came and said "Miss I'd like to chat about X" I'd not say "wait
until porch time" lol
[16:38] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Lol and I just tell
mine "someone has their bossy pants on today"
[16:38] Sydney ღ Dark (Badvudo Resident): *giggles
quietly*
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): hee hee
[16:38] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): rellatioship, for me
means something where both parts have pleasure..if not..is not a relationship
[16:38] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): bingo!
[16:39] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): When he says that, I just fall
silent.
[16:39] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): I agree Sir
Valmont, since I learned about porch talks, I ask any new dominant i am
considering how they feel about them. If i get a negative response, or a
"Im always right, there is no need for them" I stop considering that
individual
[16:39] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Exactly - and it may
take some time to get a Submissive to feel comfortable being 'open' during
porch talks.. Sometimes they fear it being held against them, or that they'll
overstep or upset their partner(s)
BUT., during initial organization and when we discuss "Papa's
Rules" one of mine is "If there is a problem you have, I need to know
about it. We can't fix it if we don't."
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): run not walk to
the nearest exit, Scarlet
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and 100% Johan!
[16:40] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): yes Sir Johan,
well said
[16:40] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I'm a sociologist
and I reject any notions that humans are static -- we are dynamic, we change,
needs and wants change, and we need to communicate those things to each other
[16:41] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): and i will add, more
here, where you can in any moments break the scene and fly away
[16:41] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): I had a dominant who took
my collar away during a porch talk because he did not like what I said. That
ended the relationship. It took me a long time to trust again tbh
[16:41] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): s dominant that not
respect this basic rule
[16:41] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Jesus Jenny!
[16:42] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): is not a dominant..
[16:42] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): is a poor man
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): yeah another
"run, not walk" situation, Rune
[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Sometimes its as
minor as "I enjoy cuddling with you, but sometimes I want to kneel at your
feet" and while the "Papa
Bear" in me LOVES cuddles, the
Dominant in me ALSO loves 'kneeling" so that is a SUPER easy fix - once its communicated.
[16:42] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): nods
[16:42] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): WOW! retaliation
of any sort is not part of a true porch talk
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): 100% Scarlet
[16:42] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): I'm so sorry Rune
[16:42] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): it's the exact
opposite
[16:42] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): <3
[16:43] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): ohhh...so bad...Rune
[16:45] aco ღ あこ ღ (Aco Avon): I completely understand what you
mean. Once trust is lost, it's very difficult to regain it.
[16:46] Scarlet Danvers (Leila Dashuria): Aco, to me that
kind of response to me openly speaking my mind during an appropriate time is
uncalled for and is a sign that the Dominant does not feel that He/She is right
for you. In that situation, I would seriously consider leaving
[16:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): It almost sounds like
we need to write up a class about Porch Talks for the paths Vanni :)
[16:46] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): Or 'effective
communication'
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): I think that
would be good
[16:46] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Communicative
Action as we call it in Sociology ;)
[16:46] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): smiles
[16:47] Johan Dark (WJohanW Resident): *adds it to his every
growing list of workshops he wants to write*
[16:47] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Just remember it
has to be in the original Klingon to be the most effective! (Star Trek VI joke...)
[16:48] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): ill say again : a Dom
that dont feel something is wrong, is a
Dominant that is going to loose quickly his/her submissive
[16:48] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): :)
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): nods
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): and we should
wrap this up as well
[16:48] Rune (FatedPickle Rune): It was nice to meet you
Scarlet
[16:48] (Benedetta
en>en): bye Scarlett
[16:48] Valmont (valmont Vuissent): bye Scarlett
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): Thanks for the
great comments everyone, YOU are what makes this discussion so strong
[16:48] Vanessa Cannoli (Vanessa Cannoli): in two weeks
we'll discuss "Funishment!"
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